160 réponses à ce sujet

[We Tigers]

This thread again? One thing that always amuses me is when folks call out the "the call of duty type crowds," as the OP puts it. The first Modern Warfare is one of the best shooter games--nay, games, period--to come out in recent memory. Not everyone plays only Bioware games.

[Gentleman Moogle]

We Tigers wrote...

This thread again? One thing that always amuses me is when folks call out the "the call of duty type crowds," as the OP puts it. The first Modern Warfare is one of the best shooter games--nay, games, period--to come out in recent memory. Not everyone plays only Bioware games.

I do have to agree with you there. Most gamers I know enjoy playing a wide variety of games. I myself greatly enjoy the first Modern Warfare game (The next iterations, not so much, but hey, to each his own). I also enjoy platformers, adventure games, puzzle games, beat-em-ups, and even the occasional RTS from time to time. Just because I play other games doesn't make me any less a fan of Mass Effect or RPGs in general. 

[snakeboy86]

so basically the critiria for it to be an RPG is to handle way too many equipment, spend most of your time in menu's leveling up your character, and for the game to be turned based like in the old days, which in my opinion sucked even though i did love KOTOR. and were three threads on the same topic really necessary?

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Phaedon wrote...

That by dividing the inventory into 3 seperate ones (wardrobe, armory, lab terminal)

Thank you! XD

I've been telling people this a lot... there is still an inventory... it's on your ship instead of having magic bottomless pockets.  

[88mphSlayer]

ehm... Bioware does not rule the roost, last time the console rpg market imploded was namely because SquareEnix could tell the industry when to jump and how high, Bioware is not like that, not to mention the jrpg console market imploded because its core design never evolved... their solution to people getting bored of the same spikey haired whiny "i'm not meant to be a hero" hero with a big sword fighting "the man" with belt buckles on his face was to make the combat slightly more real-time? yeah, brave choices there

i think Bioware's design theory for the Mass Effect franchise is evolution enough for them for one gen in keeping things fresh and interesting, now if in 4 years Bioware is releasing DA4 and ME5 then we should be concerned they're turning into SquareEnix

[Pwener2313]

ME2 is ME1 better. Get over it OP.

[CroGamer002]

Pwener2313 wrote...

ME2 is ME1 better. Get over it OP.

This is the most confusing sentence I ever read.

[Gleym]

Oh look, another thread where someone voices their opinion of preferring ME1, and ends up getting jumped for it. Y'know, the only thing that REALLY gets old here is the attitude of people who can't handle that someone didn't enjoy ME2 as much as they did, so they feel the need to tear apart any views that are contrary to their own.

Modifié par Gleym, 06 mars 2011 - 09:56 .

[Supernerd82]

Have any of you played The Witcher? Arcania? Two Worlds? All these games are very rigidly RPG by the standards most of you are using, and they almost universally suffer for it. They have deep and complicated menus and levelling systems, and they are awful, a pain to use, and just not fun. Making the interface more user friendly doesn't make Mass Effect and Dragon Age bad any more than it makes it less of an RPG. I think a lot of you are losing sight of what RPG stands for, that is, Role Playing Game, not "Manage stats and sift through bad menus", and Mass Effect and Dragon Age, even GTA to an extent, let you play the role of character better than any other.

Aside from that, how did bioware lead the "console revolution"? What does that mean anyway? Consoles were more prevalent and popular for games than PCs have ever been, way back to Atari and the Odyssey

[Gleym]

Supernerd82 wrote...

Have any of you played The Witcher? Arcania? Two Worlds? All these games are very rigidly RPG by the standards most of you are using, and they almost universally suffer for it. They have deep and complicated menus and levelling systems, and they are awful, a pain to use, and just not fun. Making the interface more user friendly doesn't make Mass Effect and Dragon Age bad any more than it makes it less of an RPG. I think a lot of you are losing sight of what RPG stands for, that is, Role Playing Game, not "Manage stats and sift through bad menus", and Mass Effect and Dragon Age, even GTA to an extent, let you play the role of character better than any other.

Aside from that, how did bioware lead the "console revolution"? What does that mean anyway? Consoles were more prevalent and popular for games than PCs have ever been, way back to Atari and the Odyssey

I had no problems playing The Witcher. I can understand it might be complicated and hard to use when you aren't having your hand held step by step throughout it, but hey, I might as well adopt the ME2 crowd stance and say 'cry moar' or 'deal with it'.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Matt VT Schlo wrote...

In light of the mainstreaming of DA 2, the group felt like that Bioware is clearly trying to attract the call of duty type crowds, and that the complicated RPGs are just too much for most gamers of the 1st person shooter genre to handle

Mass Effect 2
And Call of Duty...
Nope. Don't see it. At all.

And, as a long time RPG gamer myself, surely the entire point of an RPG is to play a character where you can make your own decisions and influence the game according to what the player dictates.
Mass effect 2 definately does that.
The inventory system was much easier to manage, and although the levelling up system was a bit 'meh' I can hardly see why you would think that it is 'leading RPG's to their death.'

Bearing Mass Effect's popularity in mind, have you ever considered that they are actually revolutionisng RPG's to a more modern gaming era, rather than leading them to their death?

[Swerodent]

Drama queen.

[Gleym]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...
Bearing Mass Effect's popularity in mind, have you ever considered that they are actually revolutionisng RPG's to a more modern gaming era, rather than leading them to their death?

Only if that means Twilight revolutionized vampires to a modern storytelling era.

[Gentleman Moogle]

Gleym wrote...

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...
Bearing Mass Effect's popularity in mind, have you ever considered that they are actually revolutionisng RPG's to a more modern gaming era, rather than leading them to their death?

Only if that means Twilight revolutionized vampires to a modern storytelling era.

...

Did you seriously -- seriously, mind you -- say that Mass Effect 2 does for RPGs what Twilight did for Vampire stories?

...

Congratulations, you've been upgraded to 'Official Troll." Please pick up your club, loincloth, and silly teeth at the front desk on your way out. 

[RenownedRyan]

This thread can be summed up in four simple words.  You. Are. An. Idiot.

[N7Infernox]

I'm surprised this thread is still alive (no offense OP).
Anyways I'll say what I always say: if you don't like the game, don't play it. And if you think Bioware can't make games, then I'd REALLY like to see you give it a shot.

[Thompson family]

Gleym wrote...

Oh look, another thread where someone voices their opinion of preferring ME1, and ends up getting jumped for it. Y'know, the only thing that REALLY gets old here is the attitude of people who can't handle that someone didn't enjoy ME2 as much as they did, so they feel the need to tear apart any views that are contrary to their own.

Gleym, what's being "jumped on" here and "torn apart" is not somebody's opinion. It's the nagging. As posted earlier in this thread, this same author alone has posted three threads on this exact same subject.

There are literally hundreds of these threads on the forum -- hundreds. I wouldn't be surprised if it's passed the 1,000 marks. I once counted six "ME2 is not a real RPG" threads posted in one day.

I'm sorry people don't get a chance to play Barbie any more and dress up their Shep just like they like them and have a closet full of accessories and play pretties to choose from. If they want to express their opinion, I have no problem with that. What I object to is their insistence that the game has been "dumbed down."

To be blunt,the search and sort inventory system of ME1 would run more smoothly if it were on a simple spreadsheet. And as for the idea that ME1 has a better story than ME2, that is simply laughable. ME1's story is a comic book hero-villain tale compared to the drama and characterization of ME2 -- before it was greatly enriched by the DLCs "Lair of the Shadow Broker" and "Overlord." Now there's absolutely no comparison.

There is only one area in which ME1 is clearly better than ME2: Saren was one great villian. And even he was stereotypical.

Here's what I think really bugs RPG elitists.

I just got through playing a game in which I imported an ME1 Shepard. At the end of one playthrough, he was a full Level 30, had the best equipment and every upgrade there was (except Med-Bay). He's now hanging out at the Shadow Broker base, waiting for intel and having fun with Liara in the meantime.

After one playthrough, my Shepard's just as good and leveled up as any RPG elitist's. No multiple playthroughs to max out charm and intimidate without spending a point on them, just by becoming a Spectre over and over again. No having every team member bonus from playing at least three playthroughs so you can get them all. No rare armor that you have to play through multiple times just to find.

ME2 hasn't been "dumbed down." It's been relieved of the drudgery and repetitiveness that the old system rewarded so richly -- and which had all  of the intellectual appeal of finding the cheese at the end of a rat maze.

This stopped being a debate a year ago. I'm not arguing with the RPG elitists any more, but no free shots. They don't get to insult the rest of us any more without getting called out for it.

EDITED P.S. I was "called out" myself, and rightly so, for lumping RPGer's in the same category. The topic was changed to "RPG Elitist."

Modifié par Thompson family, 07 mars 2011 - 09:34 .

[Gentleman Moogle]

Thompson family wrote...

Gleym wrote...

Oh look, another thread where someone voices their opinion of preferring ME1, and ends up getting jumped for it. Y'know, the only thing that REALLY gets old here is the attitude of people who can't handle that someone didn't enjoy ME2 as much as they did, so they feel the need to tear apart any views that are contrary to their own.

Gleym, what's being "jumped on" here and "torn apart" is not somebody's opinion. It's the nagging. As posted earlier in this thread, this same author alone has posted three threads on this exact same subject.

There are literally hundreds of these threads on the forum -- hundreds. I wouldn't be surprised if it's passed the 1,000 marks. I once counted six "ME2 is not a real RPG" threads posted in one day.

I'm sorry people don't get a chance to play Barbie any more and dress up their Shep just like they like them and have a closet full of accessories and play pretties to choose from. If they want to express their opinion, I have no problem with that. What I object to is their insistence that the game has been "dumbed down."

To be blunt,the search and sort inventory system of ME1 would run more smoothly if it were on a simple spreadsheet. And as for the idea that ME1 has a better story than ME2, that is simply laughable. ME1's story is a comic book hero-villain tale compared to the drama and characterization of ME2 -- before it was greatly enriched by the DLCs "Lair of the Shadow Broker" and "Overlord." Now there's absolutely no comparison.

There is only one area in which ME1 is clearly better than ME2: Saren was one great villian. And even he was stereotypical.

Here's what I think really bugs RPGers.

I just got through playing a game in which I imported an ME1 Shepard. At the end of one playthrough, he was a full Level 30, had the best equipment and every upgrade there was (except Med-Bay). He's now hanging out at the Shadow Broker base, waiting for intel and having fun with Liara in the meantime.

After one playthrough, my Shepard's just and good and leveled up as any RPGer's. No multiple playthroughs to max out charm and intimidate without spending a point on them, just by becoming a Spectre over and over again. No having every team member bonus from playing at least three playthroughs so you can get them all. No rare armor that you have to play through multiple times just to find.

ME2 hasn't been "dumbed down." It's been relived of the rudgery and repetitiveness that the old RPG system rewarded so richly -- and which had all  of the intellectual appeal of finding the cheese at the end of a rat maze.

This stopped being a debate a year ago. I'm not arguing with the RPGer's any more, but no free shots. They don't get to insult the rest of us any more without getting called out for it.

You, sir or madam, have just won the entire internet. 

What are you gonna do next?

[Thompson family]

We're going to Disneyworld.

[habitat 67]

Thompson family wrote...
This stopped being a debate a year ago. I'm not arguing with the RPGer's any more, but no free shots. They don't get to insult the rest of us any more without getting called out for it.

<enthusiastic applause>

[Gentleman Moogle]

I would caution against using the term "RPGers" as a negative, however. I'm an RP-gamer, have been ever since I picked up a copy of Dragon Warrior 4 for the original NES system. I love RPGs because of their plotlines and their detailed worlds and characters (Usually, anyways). The term you're looking for is "RPG-Elitist"; who somehow feel that 'streamlining' cumbersome menu systems or jazzing up the combat from the usually-annoying 'I hit you, now you hit me, now I hit you again' system into something more approachable is 'dumbing down' the game.

As an RP-gamer, I love ME2. The combat is smooth and intuitive, the plotline is... Well, as a stand-alone it's DECENT. Not great, but decent. The characters are well-realized and seriously awesome, and it can appeal to a wide variety of gamers thanks to its simpler design, rather than keep out the 'non-elite' with cumbersome menus or uninspired combat. Is it a perfect game? Heck no. Is it one of the better games I've ever played? Yes, yes it is.

[Pwener2313]

Gentleman Moogle is my hero. Im pround to have him in my friend list. He's right in everything he has said. I haven't gone back to playing ME1 not because of the combat, but because it's a pain to start over again. 2 years ago, I would have held ME1 as one of the greates RPGs ever made. But after playing ME2 I saw the face of true greatness. This isn't blind fandom either. ME2 took ME1, and simplified it for *everyone*. Not for COD players, not for us alone, but for everyone.

ME2 is longer, yet it's simpler to play. I can't think of playing ME1 again because it takes so many different routes while ME2 centers in just one problem and sticks to it, even when your doing side missions. That's my take on it, I know a lot of people would disagree.

[Homey C-Dawg]

I like the stuff they added to ME2.

I don't like that they removed a bunch of stuff that was in ME1.

I've been playing RPG video games for about 25 years, and I must say ME2 is the first one I can recall where I have to look up a webpage to see the damage/absorb stats for weapons and armor.

From a pure gameplay mechanics POV, I personally felt that ME2 was about 30% rpg and 70% shooter. I know many would disagree, but thats just how I feel. Most of the RPG feel in ME2 for me came from the dialog system (which I consider a single mechanic) and the leveling system (very RPG, though not too deep).

I should state also that I love shooters, but there are just so damn many of them these days that I don't want to see the franchise go completely down the "shooter with a dialog tree" path. I'd like ME3 to retain the shooter improvements, and integrate them with more standard RPG mechanics (loot, exp from kills, more exploration, etc).

I've see a lot of posts from people over the past year debating whether they want ME3 to play more like ME1 or ME2. I don't adopt either of these positions, as I think there is a lot of design room for a better execution of a RPG/Shooter hybrid system. If done properly, I don't think it would be compared as often to other shooters and RPGs like it is now.

Modifié par Homey C-Dawg, 06 mars 2011 - 11:51 .

[88mphSlayer]

Pwener2313 wrote...

Gentleman Moogle is my hero. Im pround to have him in my friend list. He's right in everything he has said. I haven't gone back to playing ME1 not because of the combat, but because it's a pain to start over again. 2 years ago, I would have held ME1 as one of the greates RPGs ever made. But after playing ME2 I saw the face of true greatness. This isn't blind fandom either. ME2 took ME1, and simplified it for *everyone*. Not for COD players, not for us alone, but for everyone.

ME2 is longer, yet it's simpler to play. I can't think of playing ME1 again because it takes so many different routes while ME2 centers in just one problem and sticks to it, even when your doing side missions. That's my take on it, I know a lot of people would disagree.

the only thing that is really a drag for me replaying ME1 is just the mako bits, they're never particularly fun, but some of the side missions you encounter with it can be, so i feel like i have to go explore planets with it and end up spending a lot of hours driving around bored out of my mind

the actual combat tho is fine, and in some ways can be more fun at higher level than ME2 just because of stuff like frictionless material in assault rifles or super-high powered ammo in shotguns that make everything fly hundreds of feet or the adept powers throwing enemies really far or just killing them with throw alone

the flow and pacing of ME2 is better tho, there are moments that can drag in ME2 as well but they're better paced out, my only problem with replaying ME2 is that all it takes is doing a 45min main quest mission here or there to unlock a buttload more side missions/loyalty quests/recruitment missions, in that respect ME2's story drags a lot more because if you're a completionist you get into a mindset of just getting stuff out of the way which is almost - deju vu of the first game's exploration mako bits