160 réponses à ce sujet

[Lunatic LK47]

Foxhound2020 wrote...





Im sorry, but if you think that this is an improvement in an RPG.....,you need your head scanned. Only a complete moron would need a talent system dumbed down this much, and less choices does not make a game more fun.

Uh, I can name six skills that are better off not existing in ME1's skillset, and that's all four weapon skills, armor skill, and the bonus talent. Shepard's already an *SPECIAL FORCES MARINE* (i.e. Force Recon/Navy SEAL/SAS/Delta Force operative), and something as basic as shooting guns accurately should have been negligent from the extensive training.

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

The real question is:
If it takes you most of your time to surf through menus to play an rpg, how intelligent can you be. Does it take you an hour to set the clock on your car stereo?

Fiddling through menu screens with cumbersome interfaces=/= gameplay. I shouldn't have to waste five minutes just to install one simple mod if I have a tiny shoebox. It's just as stupid as saying "Spend 20 minutes changing your clothes if you're going to play Basketball."

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 07 mars 2011 - 07:14 .

[Foxhound2020]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Uh, I can name six skills that are better off not existing in ME1's skillset, and that's all four weapon skills, armor skill, and the bonus talent. Shepard's already an elite marine, and something as basic as shooting guns accurately should have been negligent from the extensive training.

I know, what a great idea! With this logic, every RPG in the world should start at level 106 instead of level 1.

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Fiddling through menu screens with cumbersome interfaces=/= gameplay. I shouldn't have to waste five minutes just to install one simple mod if I have a tiny shoebox.

It took you 5 minutes!

Modifié par Foxhound2020, 07 mars 2011 - 07:12 .

[Lunatic LK47]

Foxhound2020 wrote...

It only took you five minutes.

Five minutes for one mod, multiply it by 3= 15 minutes to modify one weapon. Multiply it by 3 squadmates including myself, just because scrolling through the inventory is that damn slow. Resident Evil's inventory is miles better than ME1 since it only took me 5-10 seconds tops just to get whatever I needed.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 07 mars 2011 - 07:18 .

[Gentleman Moogle]

Foxhound2020 wrote...

Im sorry, but if you think that this is an improvement in an RPG.....,you need your head scanned. Only a complete moron would need a talent system dumbed down this much, and less choices does not make a game more fun.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sick.png[/smilie]

Look maw, another feller makin' one o' them thar ad-hominum attacks on them what prefers simpler levelin' systems to more complicated ones.

Well, I'm feeling my oats, so let me address one point as directly as I can. 

YOUR 
PERSONAL 
OPINION 
IS 
NOT 
NECESSARILY 
FACT 

And dressing up your opinion in pithy schoolyard insults does not make your argument seem any more compelling. In fact, it makes you look like some twelve year-old punk who was sired in the shallow end of the gene pool and is incapable of holding a logical one-on-one argument.  

Ahh, that felt good.  

Now, to address your points, such as they were:  

1. The leveling system


While I, on the surface, prefer ME1's level system to ME2, ME1 -- in my opinion (See what I did there?) -- was not that great. It was kinda clunky, not that intuitive, and didn't seem to make a whole huge difference on the gameplay itself except for a couple very obvious options (Intimidate and Charm). Bioware could have streamlined it a lot more than what they released to make it more intuitive, user-friendly, and not as redundant (lots of powers seemed to overlap with one another, if I remember correctly.)

2. Less choice does not equal more fun.

Oh. 

Really. 

You enjoyed all that inventory management, did you? Had fun with that massively cumbersome system, browsing through dozens of identical weapons represented only in text and maybe one or two texture changes in-game? Liked paging through all those weapons, armour, enhancements, explosives, biotic amps, omnitools OH MY GOD I NEED A VALIUM. 

Seriously, choice for choice's sake is never a good thing. It artificially lengthens gameplay, can make the menus arcane and unwelcoming to newcomers, can make every little action tedious... Choice, unless it is implemented well and has a noticeable effect on the game world, is useless by itself. 

Did Bioware go too far in streamlining? Ehhh... Maybe. Depends on who you talk to. I myself like the streamlined elements because it makes for more enjoyable combat, smoother gameplay, and allows me to focus more on the story, plot, and character arcs than having to constantly update my weapons loadout. 

But hey, that's just my opinion. And notice how I did it all without a single insult or attack?

Yeah, s'right, I'm a word-smithing Ninja like that. 

Modifié par Gentleman Moogle, 07 mars 2011 - 07:22 .

[Foxhound2020]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Five minutes for one mod, multiply it by 3= 15 minutes to modify one weapon. Multiply it by 3 squadmates including myself, just because scrolling through the inventory is that damn slow. Resident Evil's inventory is miles better than ME1 since it only took me 5-10 seconds tops just to get whatever I needed.

It still shouldn't take you 5 minutes, I am willing to believe that your exagerating. It takes me 3 to 4 seconds to put on a mod that I just picked up. Now, if you want to complain about their inventory system to say Resdient Evil, sure. This type of problem can be avoided if you dump everything in your inventory every now and then.

Doing away with talents because they are deemed unnecessary because shepard is a pro doesnt really work. There are countless RPGs where you start out as a Prince/knight in Phantasy Star 3, a king, a professional warrior, ect, ect. Ya, I know it kinda sucks when you have "cant shoot sh%$ syndrome" at level 1, but anyone that is dishearten because of such a small discrepancy should not play an RPG. Every RPG in the world is going to kinda suck at level 1.

[Lunatic LK47]

Foxhound2020 wrote...

It still shouldn't take you 5 minutes, I am willing to believe that your exagerating. It takes me 3 to 4 seconds to put on a mod that I just picked up. Now, if you want to complain about their inventory system to say Resdient Evil, sure. This type of problem can be avoided if you dump everything in your inventory every now and then.

Uh, easier said than done if you have 50+ items to deal with, and a good majority of them are mods. I ****ing timed the process and it *DOES* take 5 minutes for me to scroll through the mods, and I already omni-gelled the unimportant items. Selling the items takes 5 minutes total.

Doing away with talents because they are deemed unnecessary because shepard is a pro doesnt really work. There are countless RPGs where you start out as a Prince/knight in Phantasy Star 3, a king, a professional warrior, ect, ect. Ya, I know it kinda sucks when you have "cant shoot sh%$ syndrome" at level 1, but anyone that is dishearten because of such a small discrepancy should not play an RPG. Every RPG in the world is going to kinda suck at level 1.

Uh, if Shepard was just a regular grunt that got out of very basic training, I would have bought the skill system, but Special Forces Marine doesn't fit with the "classic Are-Pee-Gee" model.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 07 mars 2011 - 08:01 .

[Foxhound2020]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...
Look maw, another feller makin' one o' them thar ad-hominum attacks on them what prefers simpler levelin' systems to more complicated ones.

Well, I'm feeling my oats, so let me address one point as directly as I can. 

YOUR 
PERSONAL 
OPINION 
IS 
NOT 
NECESSARILY 
FACT 

And dressing up your opinion in pithy schoolyard insults does not make your argument seem any more compelling. In fact, it makes you look like some twelve year-old punk who was sired in the shallow end of the gene pool and is incapable of holding a logical one-on-one argument.  

Ahh, that felt good.  

Now, to address your points, such as they were:  

1. The leveling system


While I, on the surface, prefer ME1's level system to ME2, ME1 -- in my opinion (See what I did there?) -- was not that great. It was kinda clunky, not that intuitive, and didn't seem to make a whole huge difference on the gameplay itself except for a couple very obvious options (Intimidate and Charm). Bioware could have streamlined it a lot more than what they released to make it more intuitive, user-friendly, and not as redundant (lots of powers seemed to overlap with one another, if I remember correctly.)

2. Less choice does not equal more fun.

Oh. 

Really. 

You enjoyed all that inventory management, did you? Had fun with that massively cumbersome system, browsing through dozens of identical weapons represented only in text and maybe one or two texture changes in-game? Liked paging through all those weapons, armour, enhancements, explosives, biotic amps, omnitools OH MY GOD I NEED A VALIUM. 

Seriously, choice for choice's sake is never a good thing. It artificially lengthens gameplay, can make the menus arcane and unwelcoming to newcomers, can make every little action tedious... Choice, unless it is implemented well and has a noticeable effect on the game world, is useless by itself. 

Did Bioware go too far in streamlining? Ehhh... Maybe. Depends on who you talk to. I myself like the streamlined elements because it makes for more enjoyable combat, smoother gameplay, and allows me to focus more on the story, plot, and character arcs than having to constantly update my weapons loadout. 

But hey, that's just my opinion. And notice how I did it all without a single insult or attack?

Yeah, s'right, I'm a word-smithing Ninja like that. 

Only a complete moron would need a talent system this dumbed
down. Notice the underlined part. If you need it, maybe you shouldnt
play an RPG. Ah yes, I am the first person in this thread to state their
opinion. Well, I guess that did feel good to be the first one. Maybe
the last? idk. I didnt know I was responding in a EWTN forum where

people get insulted so easily, but if I check the first 10 responses, they seem to
be the exact same thing. How quaint of me to be the first person with
an opinion. It doesnt include anyones name, so I am hardly insulting
anyone.

If you need "omg valium" to micromanage an RPG, you shouldnt be playing RPGs.

Mass Effect 1 was one of the easiest RPGs ever developed to micromanage compared to what has been done before.

Choice is what ME was based on from the developing phase. Choices of relationships, storyline, love interests,
facial differences, and armor were all selling points on advertisements and news programs when Mass Effect first came out. Why would you remove that, but this is my opinion. I love that word-smithing ninja name. Im glad you have an opinion too, but I am not the first person to post their opinion on these forums or the last, so if this was an attempt to end such travesties, it was and will be in vane.

Modifié par Foxhound2020, 07 mars 2011 - 08:49 .

[Lunatic LK47]

Foxhound2020 wrote...

Only a complete moron would need a talent system this dumbed
down. Notice the underlined part. If you need it, maybe you shouldnt
play an RPG. Ah yes, I am the first person in this thread to state their
opinion. Ah, that felt good. Well, I guess that did feel good to be the first one. Maybe
the last? idk. I didnt know I was responding in a EWTN forum where
people get insulted so easily, but if I check the first 10 responses, they seem to
be the exact same thing. How quaint of me to be the first person with an opinion. It doesnt include anyones name, so I am hardly insulting anyone.

And people are wondering why no one is taking you seriously.

If you need "omg valium" to micromanage an RPG, you shouldnt be playing RPGs.

Are you ****ting me? KOTOR 1 had a better functional inventory than ME1 ever did. Did you really drink Gatt9 and Gleym's urine in your coffee?

Mass Effect 1 was one of the easiest RPGs ever developed to micromanage compared to what has been done before.

Uh, KOTOR 1 has ME1 beaten by miles in every single level. At least I can get whatever **** I needed without spending five minutes installing *ONE* mod or having to exploit the "Save/reload" glitches just to get the armor I wanted to buy.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 07 mars 2011 - 08:19 .

[shumworld]

Just my opinion I find that ME2 is a lot more strategic than ME1, especially when the level is increased. Sure it has a lot of 3rd person shooter elements, but I find it to be a hybrid of a shooter/ rpg.

[Stupidus]

To me, if you want a game which is complex, hard to learn, at times very difficult and tedious, and have a lot more options of what to do, go play The Elder Scrolls games.

ME, DA are very streamlined while still giving you flexibility. It provides a very enjoyable experience without you having to contemplate everything more than we already do.

[Foxhound2020]

[quote]Lunatic LK47 wrote...


Are you ****ting me? KOTOR 1 had a better functional inventory than ME1 ever did. Did you really drink Gatt9 and Gleym's urine in your coffee?

[/quote]

Oh, Im sure it did, but that doesnt mean Mass Effect shouldnt have an inventory. I dont know who this gatt9 or gleym is.
[quote]Mass Effect 1 was one of the easiest RPGs ever developed to micromanage compared to what has been done before.[/quote]

Uh, KOTOR 1 has ME1 beaten by miles in every single level. At least I can get whatever **** I needed without spending five minutes installing *ONE* mod or having to exploit the "Save/reload" glitches just to get the armor I wanted to buy.
[/quote]

I underlined that part that says one. What I mean is that it is one of the easiest, not the easiest, but again I am positive you are exagerating. It should not take you 5 minutes what takes me 3 to 4 seconds to equip something. 

[Chromie]

Foxhound2020 wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Five minutes for one mod, multiply it by 3= 15 minutes to modify one weapon. Multiply it by 3 squadmates including myself, just because scrolling through the inventory is that damn slow. Resident Evil's inventory is miles better than ME1 since it only took me 5-10 seconds tops just to get whatever I needed.

It still shouldn't take you 5 minutes, I am willing to believe that your exagerating. It takes me 3 to 4 seconds to put on a mod that I just picked up. Now, if you want to complain about their inventory system to say Resdient Evil, sure. This type of problem can be avoided if you dump everything in your inventory every now and then.

Doing away with talents because they are deemed unnecessary because shepard is a pro doesnt really work. There are countless RPGs where you start out as a Prince/knight in Phantasy Star 3, a king, a professional warrior, ect, ect. Ya, I know it kinda sucks when you have "cant shoot sh%$ syndrome" at level 1, but anyone that is dishearten because of such a small discrepancy should not play an RPG. Every RPG in the world is going to kinda suck at level 1.

Ok one Resident Evil inventory is great. It's a Horror SURVIVAL game. Your supposed to take what you need obviously.

As for the more streamlined talents, why complain? A lot of the talents in Mass Effect 1 where just a waste. Pretty much filler's because by level 60 we had so many points to spend. You pretty much chose all your armor and class abilites or whatever etc. At least Mass Effect 2 did away with all that. There is room for improvement. I would like to see more talents behave like Overload. At stage 1 just damages shields and mechs, stage 2 overheats weapons, stage 3 shuts down mechs. All they need to do is expand on talents and add more then AoE or more pewpew at stage 4 of talents.

The inventory system in 1 was terrible and with the mod system of ME1 gameplay was about thinking. Pretty much Frictionless Materialx2 and whatever ammo mod and NOTHING WOULD EVER OVERHEAT. Mass Effect 2 at least made us think before blindly shooting at nothing. Room for improvement but still better then Mass Effect 1's system. Mass Effect 2 did oversimply the inventory system yes but let's see how Bioware fixes it in Mass Effect 3.

[Foxhound2020]

[quote]Lunatic LK47 wrote...


And people are wondering why no one is taking you seriously.

[/quote]

not taking someone seriously is an easy way to discredit through some form of coginitive dissonance, but if you don't think Im serious then just ignore.
[quote]Are you ****ting me? KOTOR 1 had a better functional inventory than ME1
ever did. Did you really drink Gatt9 and Gleym's urine in your coffee?[/quote]
Oh, Im sure it did, but that doesnt mean Mass Effect shouldnt have an inventory. I dont know who this gatt9 or gleym is.

[quote]Uh, KOTOR 1 has ME1 beaten by miles in every single level. At least I
can get whatever **** I needed without spending five minutes installing
*ONE* mod or having to exploit the "Save/reload" glitches just to get
the armor I wanted to buy.[/quote][/quote]

Underlined that part that says one. What I mean is that it is one of
the easiest, not the easiest, but again I am positive you are
exagerating. It should not take you 5 minutes what takes me 3 to 4
seconds to equip something. 

[Lunatic LK47]

Foxhound2020 wrote...


Underlined that part that says one. What I mean is that it is one of
the easiest, not the easiest, but again I am positive you are
exagerating. It should not take you 5 minutes what takes me 3 to 4
seconds to equip something. 

I have 50-120 items in my inventory total. Scrolling through these takes 5 minutes. What do you do, empty your inventory every single time you get the item you want?

[Foxhound2020]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

I have 50-120 items in my inventory total. Scrolling through these takes 5 minutes. What do you do, empty your inventory every single time you get the item you want?

They all have:
acme hammergun IV
acme hammergun III
acme hammergun II
So, it is pretty easy to remove the junk. Especially when you go into the equip menu and each time you select pistol it only brings up pistols. Lower numbers you throw away. Everyone admitted it is not the best inventory in the world, but an rpg without an inventory is odd. You can just fix the inventory.

[Someone With Mass]

So, it's not a Role Playing Game simply because it didn't have that stupid inventory system from ME1, in which one would have to spend at least five minutes after every fight converting garbage items into omni-gel to not clog it all up, rendering the hacking/repairing mini-games completely useless in the process?

Then by that definition, I'm actually glad ME2 is not a RPG.

The only really important improvement I think ME3 needs is to remove the amount of points necessary to level up a power and make it so I can level it up regardless of how many points I have.
Can't care less if I can't carry around 150 useless items I'm probably never going to use once I've unlocked the best armor and weapon in the game or not.

I seriously think ME2 did a much better job at that part, save for the weapon customization.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 07 mars 2011 - 08:48 .

[Alienmorph]

Again this kind of arguments? ME is NOT an old school RpG, neither wanted to be so... BW for ME2 choose a more immediate but valid gameplay? I'm more than ok with it, BW did awesome "true" RpGs, go to play with them.

[Lunatic LK47]

Foxhound2020 wrote...
They all have:
acme hammergun IV
acme hammergun III
acme hammergun II
So, it is pretty easy to remove the junk. Especially when you go into the equip menu and each time you select pistol it only brings up pistols. Lower numbers you throw away. Everyone admitted it is not the best inventory in the world, but an rpg without an inventory is odd. You can just fix the inventory.

Been there, done that. The only reason why I piled up certain items is so I could A. Sell them for more money, or B. Having back-up versions of ammo so I can outfit my squadmates. It still doesn't excuse that ME1's inventory is **** and time-consuming to sift through.

[habitat 67]

Eh, why's it gotta be all Jersey Shore up in here?
Don't you freaks ever tire of this same old argument? Drink some chamomile tea and chillax bras.

psst... Lunatic DOES have a point... all through ME1 I was always thinking of ways to unload my extra items. A saner person would have just stopped opening the crates after a while, but you never know when that Battlemaster/ Rage Armour is going to show up.

[BlackwaterMutt]

My biggest problem with the ME1 inventory was the actual interface. It's rubbish.
Sifting through "Item II" to "The same freaking item IV" was annoying as hell. The Interface just didn't offer any non-cluttered way to do this. which totally sucked because I'm sure that the rich inventory system could have worked if it wasn't such a pain in the ass to use.
Perhaps the streamlining that took place in ME2 was a bit much but it worked. That being said it would have been pretty cool to actually get some decent customization up in this game. Rather than just generic "research" maybe there could be different kinds of "research" offered by companies, for example one might offer better accuracy over the other companies research one but the cost of having better accuracy would be decreased damage.
You could tailor you weapon to your liking (if you want outright damage then you get all the research pertaining to damage, if you want ass tons of ammo then get the capacity research) and rather than have all the old inventory sitting around like in ME1 making a mess just have it override the old like it does in ME2.

[AlanC9]

Foxhound2020 wrote...
There are countless RPGs where you start out as a Prince/knight in Phantasy Star 3, a king, a professional warrior, ect, ect. Ya, I know it kinda sucks when you have "cant shoot sh%$ syndrome" at level 1, but anyone that is dishearten because of such a small discrepancy should not play an RPG. Every RPG in the world is going to kinda suck at level 1.

And this is a good thing.... why? I get that you like it. I don't see why I should like it.

[Lunatic LK47]

BlackwaterMutt wrote...

My biggest problem with the ME1 inventory was the actual interface. It's rubbish.
Sifting through "Item II" to "The same freaking item IV" was annoying as hell. The Interface just didn't offer any non-cluttered way to do this. which totally sucked because I'm sure that the rich inventory system could have worked if it wasn't such a pain in the ass to use.
Perhaps the streamlining that took place in ME2 was a bit much but it worked. That being said it would have been pretty cool to actually get some decent customization up in this game. Rather than just generic "research" maybe there could be different kinds of "research" offered by companies, for example one might offer better accuracy over the other companies research one but the cost of having better accuracy would be decreased damage.
You could tailor you weapon to your liking (if you want outright damage then you get all the research pertaining to damage, if you want ass tons of ammo then get the capacity research) and rather than have all the old inventory sitting around like in ME1 making a mess just have it override the old like it does in ME2.

Really need to work on a list dedicated to how many people I'm buying beer for. Of course, you're on that free beer list.

[Lumikki]

Foxhound2020 wrote...

Im sorry, but if you think that this is an improvement in an RPG.....,you need your head scanned. Only a complete moron would need a talent system dumbed down this much, and less choices does not make a game more fun.

It depends what you think is RPG. I agree little bit, less choises doesn't "allways" make game more fun, most the time more choises is better. It depence is those choises real choises or just illusions for player to waste time in something useless.

If RPG for you is alot of junk items in big inventory list, alot of skill and attributes so you can find min/max build, alot of progression from rat to God, alot of exp numbers floting in screen and basicly alot of numbers. Yeah, then ME2 is very simplifyed. How ever, role-playing isn't just about numbers. It's about playing role in story. So, it's about where the focus is in RPG, numbers or role in story.

So, role-playing is also about impression as how smooth you can play without been interupted alot of numbers all the time, little like acting without having coffee breaks all the time. So, while ME2 was little too much combat, the gameplay was alot smoother what increased role impression. It's the different is RPG for you tactical calc sheet where you try to find optimal solution to build and control your characters or is it emotional experiense where you play role and feel alive in virtual world with story. It's difference between seeing the story while powerplaying, like outsider controling puppets and being part of story as taking role of character and live the story though eyes of that role.

Now don't get me wrong, customation can be based numbers. Customation and choises are important tool for role-playing too. How ever, there is different when customation becomes it self as statical powerplaying and when the customation is just tool for better role-playing. RPG's aren't strategy games, even if it seem that some players here seem to play them that way.

Modifié par Lumikki, 07 mars 2011 - 10:08 .

[wolfennights]

I wish that Mass Effect would take some pointers from Final Fantasy's inventory system.

[vader da slayer]

[quote]Foxhound2020 wrote...





Im sorry, but if you think that this is an improvement in an RPG.....,you need your head scanned. Only a complete moron would need a talent system dumbed down this much, and less choices does not make a game more fun.


[quote]Lunatic LK47 wrote...

so basically the critiria for it to
be an RPG is to handle way too many equipment, spend most of your time
in menu's leveling up your character, and for the game to be turned
based like in the old days, which in my opinion sucked even though i did
love KOTOR. and were three threads on the same topic really
necessary?[/quote]
[/quote]
The real question is:
If it takes you most of your time to surf through menus to play an rpg, how intelligent can you be. Does it take you an hour to set the clock on your car stereo?

[/quote]

<sarcasm> I love dense people </sarcams>

In the event that you didnt notice (and you obviously didn't)  several of those talents don't exist hence the fewer talent points to spend. the armor skill, all weapon skills (total 5 so far) and decription, damping, fitness, electronics amongst others were removed. why were they removed? they were mostly useless and the useful abilities they granted were kept.

oh and there are half the number of levels so we gain half the number of talent points (60 levels in ME1 with 102 talent points and 30 levels in ME2 with 51 talent points).

to prove the point I made above about useless abilites (and in some cases blantantly op abilites) as an infiltrator with the Pistol Achievement, maxed commando specilization and 2x Medical Exoskeleton X's you could keep both Immunity and Marksman up 100% of the time. couple that with the ability to use an HMWP X with Frictionless Mats X, Scram Rail X and the appropriate ammo upgrade (tungesten for synthetics and shredder for organics) and you can just run n gun the entirety of ME1 even on insanity.

so do you think as an RPG enthusiast that using one weapon and 2 abilites out of a dozen or so a good design?

also wtf with maxing out Spectre training, you only need 4 pts in that.

Modifié par vader da slayer, 07 mars 2011 - 10:11 .