160 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

I think it's stupid to argue how long it takes to change weapons modification, because both 3-4 second and 5 minutes are both totally BS estimate. It's not just about how long you need to do it, but how often (and long) you micro-management interupts your gameplay.

I think we all agree that customation is important part of RPG as tool to customize characters. How ever, customation is not main point of role-playing game, it's just tool for role-playing.

While ME2 did lack in customation part at least in my opinion as not enough of it. ME1 how ever, was not any better, because it's more customation was badly design and cause problems to main gameplay. Example, I hated all the useless micro-management what I was forced to do in ME1.

There is two reason why I don't like ME1 as much I could, they are bad weapon based combat system (example TPS affected by character skills) and too much micro-management (invetories with alot of junk items). Both of these features are comming from traditional RPG as trying to force them in the more cinematic action game, where they don't fit well. Developers fixed these problems in ME2, but while they did so, for some reason they also removed some other customation features what where fine in ME1. Like we all know, ability customize character (companions) armors and weapons.

Also while I could want more character skill/power customation, I also understand why it was redused. Like someone allready pointed, many of them where just consequences of fixing made between ME1 and ME2. How ever, not all.

Modifié par Lumikki, 07 mars 2011 - 05:55 .

[stu117]

Lumikki wrote...


I think we all agree that customation is important part of RPG as tool to customize characters. How ever, customation is not main point of role-playing game, it's just tool for role-playing.

 
IMHO this statement bears so much fail that ur brain explodes trying to contemplate the sheer amount of failtitude.

RPG= customization of your character and story without this it fails.

ME2=good story with customization and some customization for your character (loot and armor wise) While not a game breaker the loot system adds a larger sense of accomplishment to the game, but since bioware can make you character customizable through the story, they chose to kind of abandon the loot system because of its flaws in the first game. IMO if there were to be a loot system in ME3 they should create a huge amount of items so its constantly exiteing to loot your foes otherwise dont put it in. A good loot system would make mass effect a perfect game

Modifié par stu117, 07 mars 2011 - 07:08 .

[Lumikki]

stu117 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...


I think we all agree that customation is important part of RPG as tool to customize characters. How ever, customation is not main point of role-playing game, it's just tool for role-playing.

 
IMHO this statement bears so much fail that ur brain explodes trying to contemplate the sheer amount of failtitude.

RPG= customization of your character and story without this it fails.

ME2=good story with customization and some customization for your character (loot and armor wise) While not a game breaker the loot system adds a larger sense of accomplishment to the game, but since bioware can make you character customizable through the story, they chose to kind of abandon the loot system because of its flaws in the first game. IMO if there were to be a loot system in ME3 they should create a huge amount of items so its constantly exiteing to loot your foes otherwise dont put it in. A good loot system would make mass effect a perfect game

Sorry, I'm not sure are you seriously or just joking?

Are you saying without good loot system there is no good RPG or/and without good customation there is no good story?

Modifié par Lumikki, 07 mars 2011 - 07:16 .

[stu117]

Im saying without game customization of some nature whether it be class abilities, story or loot/item upgrades to customize your character its not an rpg.

Loot does not= customization always but if done right it adds to the experience of customizing your char

so loot does not make or break a rpg

also anygame can have a good story but rpg's let you make it your own story so for an rpg story to be good it should be custom to your choices, no?

Modifié par stu117, 07 mars 2011 - 07:27 .

[Lumikki]

Okey, I agree if game has no customation at all, it's not RPG. I also agree that if loot is done right, it's good for RPG. I don't how ever know how this is related my comment, where I sayed customation is important part of RPG, but it's not main gameplay, just tool for role-playing. Point is that customation it self should never become main gameplay in role-playing game, customation supports the main gamelay what is role-playing.

Modifié par Lumikki, 07 mars 2011 - 07:28 .

[stu117]

Imo customization is rpg gameplay

[Lumikki]

stu117 wrote...

Imo customization is rpg gameplay

Ahh, okey. There is where our opinions disagree then, fair enough.

As my opinion, if customation becomes gameplay for player in RPG, it's not anymore role-playing, it's powerplaying or metagaming, like min/max playing. I'm not saying that there is anything bad about that kind of gameplay, but in my eyes, it's not anymore role-playing. For me customation has allways been about allow me to define my character better to fit role what I'm playing in story. Real gameplay in RPG for me has allways been about choises and actions I do in game, while cover the story or write story with my actions and choises.

Modifié par Lumikki, 07 mars 2011 - 07:42 .

[stu117]

mostly every action in ME makes sheperd your own so gameplay is customizing your char.... lol this is starting to get confusing... but imo the main point in rpg's is customizing your game in some way which is the oppsite of your quote in my first comment. funny how this thread comes down to defining a genre tis fun lol

[AlanC9]

Davescarface wrote...

Yet you can playthrough ME2 without ever needing to go into your locker and select your best weapons for Shepard or his squadmates because they automatically get selected.

Let's say that's true -- I'm not certain that the Carnifex is any better than the Predator,at least for Shepard, but we can assume it.

If  the upgraded weapons really are better, then why shouldn't the game automatically select them? Why shouldn't things that require no thought be automated?

Or is this a problem with the item design?

[JayhartRIC]

Actually they automatically select the latest weapon you picked up. It doesn't necessarily mean it's the best.

[Davescarface]

Thompson family wrote...
Why? How many guns does one character need?

The vast majority of the guns in ME1 were raw material for the omni-gel vat. As for ME2, the only category in which I can see a serious restriction in choice is the pistol.

Now if you want to complain about a lack of ammunition options, I'd agree with you, though not strongly.

The point I was trying to make is why make such an unbelievable sequel but make looting so non existent? Playing through all the levels in ME2 all you ever get from hacking into computer terminals or unlocking safe's is credits and sometimes more minerals which you dont need. I personally would have liked to be able to find more weapons and weapon upgrades. I am not complaining I merely wanted to give my opinion on what I was disappointed in. Overall I am very pleased with ME2 for the most part and think the title to this thread is plain stupid.  

[stu117]

Davescarface wrote...

Thompson family wrote...
Why? How many guns does one character need?

The vast majority of the guns in ME1 were raw material for the omni-gel vat. As for ME2, the only category in which I can see a serious restriction in choice is the pistol.

Now if you want to complain about a lack of ammunition options, I'd agree with you, though not strongly.

The point I was trying to make is why make such an unbelievable sequel but make looting so non existent? Playing through all the levels in ME2 all you ever get from hacking into computer terminals or unlocking safe's is credits and sometimes more minerals which you dont need. I personally would have liked to be able to find more weapons and weapon upgrades. I am not complaining I merely wanted to give my opinion on what I was disappointed in. Overall I am very pleased with ME2 for the most part and think the title to this thread is plain stupid.  

agreed throwing in some wepons or upgrades wouldve made hacking safes or w/e its called so much more awesome

[meiwow2]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Foxhound2020 wrote...

It only took you five minutes.

Five minutes for one mod, multiply it by 3= 15 minutes to modify one weapon. Multiply it by 3 squadmates including myself, just because scrolling through the inventory is that damn slow. Resident Evil's inventory is miles better than ME1 since it only took me 5-10 seconds tops just to get whatever I needed.

People seem to forget time and time again that mass effect is NOT an action game like resident evil is, it's an rpg = "leveling up skills and menues"

[JayhartRIC]

The issue isn't people who prefer ME1. The issue is people who prefer ME1, but the reasons they give don't make any sense. Or they list issues with ME2 that were in ME1 as well.

ME1 tried to add a lot of traditional RPG elements that didn't make sense in the context of the story or were horribly implemented. The economy system was the worst I've seen in an RPG, period. In most RPG's, most of the weapons are crap, but there is some uber-awesome weapon you have to go on a quest to get or save a crazy amount of money for. In ME1, everything you could buy was as good as the stuff you were looting for free. Once people figured this out, they just sold or broke down all those extra copies until you got Spectre gear and Colossus armor. Doing this you eventually have so much money the game stops counting.

Compare to another Bioware game--KotoR.

Bendak's blaster was one of the best pistol's in the game and you got it very early. Depending on your build it was a pretty difficult fight to get that weapon also. Money was also scarce, depending on if you RP to refuse payment for assisting people. You could extort them for more and be much better off.

The horrible economy messes up the Charm/Intimidate system. Besides the fact that the points are free which takes choice out the equation, all you really get for persuading is more money. But your already swimming in money anyway. The only real consequence is the situation on Virmire, but there is a way around that too.

Another complaint of ME2 is that there aren't a lot of options for character builds, but the same could be said for ME1. There are really only one or two "best" builds for each class. In any case you get so many points that you can almost fill up everything anyway, so there isn't much of a choice there either.

[Thompson family]

Davescarface wrote...

Thompson family wrote...
Why? How many guns does one character need?

The vast majority of the guns in ME1 were raw material for the omni-gel vat. As for ME2, the only category in which I can see a serious restriction in choice is the pistol.

Now if you want to complain about a lack of ammunition options, I'd agree with you, though not strongly.

The point I was trying to make is why make such an unbelievable sequel but make looting so non existent? Playing through all the levels in ME2 all you ever get from hacking into computer terminals or unlocking safe's is credits and sometimes more minerals which you dont need. I personally would have liked to be able to find more weapons and weapon upgrades. I am not complaining I merely wanted to give my opinion on what I was disappointed in. Overall I am very pleased with ME2 for the most part and think the title to this thread is plain stupid.  

Ah. I can see that. Sorry I didn't catch it on the first or second go-round, Davescarface.

What I really would have liked, and hoped to have seen in the expansion packs, was more random missions generated by scanning planets. That would have put some more excitement into the dullest part of ME2.

Back to your point, what I really would have liked from hacking computer terminals would have been missions -- exactly what you got in ME1 when you hacked a computer terminal on Feros and found information on Geth massing for an attack.

[Lunatic LK47]

meiwow2 wrote...

People seem to forget time and time again that mass effect is NOT an action game like resident evil is, it's an rpg = "leveling up skills and menues"

Just because a game is an RPG doesn't mean the majority of the game-time has to be mandatorily spent pissing around in the menu screen. I used Resident Evil's inventory screen as an example because it's more USER FRIENDLY. Mass Effect 1 was *TEDIOUS* because of a BAD INTERFACE. KOTOR 1 was MILES BETTER than ME1.

An ideal inventory: A simple 5 second task should take 5 seconds, not 5 minutes.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 07 mars 2011 - 08:41 .

[Thompson family]

People seem to forget time and time again that mass effect is NOT an action game like resident evil is, it's an rpg = "leveling up skills and menues"

Wrong: RPG = Role Playing Game. The role I play is: Frank Shepard, Earthborn, Soldier, Akuze Survivor, insufferable Paragon saint, Faithful lover of Liara T'Soni, loyal friend who saved Urdnot Wrex's life and who saved Kaiden Alenko's life, a man who let a terrorist go rather than sacrifice civilians, savior of the Council, loyal friend and ally of Councillor Anderson, savior of the Rachni, reprogrammer of Heritic Geth, Spectre (still), Demolisher of the Collector Base and glad of it, and leader of a team that includes an Asari Justicar instead of her evil offspring.

He's a tall, well-built man with short but thick dark hair, a handlebar moustache and is of mixed-race (human) descent. As he explained to Ashley in the first game, he has no strong religious convictions. He takes the Paragon path because of deep inner conviction that springs from him, not from anything ingrained in him.

He leads from the front. He deliberately exposes himself to fire when members of his squad are in danger. He carries a Revenant LMG, not because it's the best weapon in theory, but because he puts the rest of his team behind cover and takes point or flank because he's a leader, not a back-seat driver and sniper. And he's tough: Only plays on Insanity.

What earrings he wears or what plaid pattern he has on his golf shirt is completely irrelevant. I don't need trapping and junk to tell me who my character is and what's on his mind.

Modifié par Thompson family, 07 mars 2011 - 09:01 .

[AlanC9]

Davescarface wrote...

The point I was trying to make is why make such an unbelievable sequel but make looting so non existent?

Well, my personal answer to that is that loot shouldn't be in ME in the first place, except in very extraordinary circumstances like getting a Collector weapon or some such.

Edit: actually, the ME2 loot wasn't too bad. But buying stuff in shops was silly -- Cerberus coulldn't afford to buy this stuff themselves?

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 mars 2011 - 08:41 .

[meiwow2]

@ Mr thomson family
While what you are talking about is true, they are merely story elements of an rpg. I remind you that the gameplay elements of an rpg are also important if such rpg is not to be laveled as "dumbed down". Such elements would be stuff like extensive talent trees with more skill and ability customization options which by the way don't take "me" 5 minutes to configure... that's all I'm saying.
Just because some impatient call of duty action lover thinks these gameplay features are "tedious" or get in the way of "their fun" doesn't mean it's right to change it and dumb it down to fit their simplistic point of view or taste and upset the rpg fans in the process, what about the "rpg fan's fun"?

Modifié par meiwow2, 07 mars 2011 - 08:47 .

[Lunatic LK47]

meiwow2 wrote...
Such elements would be stuff like extensive talent trees with more skill and ability customization options which by the way don't take "me" 5 minutes to configure... that's all I'm saying.

Uh, is your reading comprehension bad? I said Mass Effect 1's inventory has a *BAD INTERFACE*, especially when I have 50-100 items total in my inventory. Learn2read.

Let me post this again:

An ideal inventory: A simple 5 second task should take 5 mother****ing seconds, *NOT* 5 minutes.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 07 mars 2011 - 08:52 .

[stu117]

AlanC9 wrote...

Davescarface wrote...

The point I was trying to make is why make such an unbelievable sequel but make looting so non existent?

Well, my personal answer to that is that loot shouldn't be in ME in the first place, except in very extraordinary circumstances like getting a Collector weapon or some such.

why? why souldnt bioware put in a loot system it makes perfect sense to me. you act like its a drawback, Just because the loot system was flawed in ME1 dosnt mean that they cant make an improved version of it. a good looting system can make an otherwise boring game fun IE:borderlands, Imagine what it could do for ME

[Lunatic LK47]

stu117 wrote...

why? why souldnt bioware put in a loot system it makes perfect sense to me. you act like its a drawback, Just because the loot system was flawed in ME1 dosnt mean that they cant make an improved version of it. a good looting system can make an otherwise boring game fun IE:borderlands, Imagine what it could do for ME

Well, the thing is, the traditional loot system does not fit in a futuristic setting. We have ****ing omni-tools that scans schematics and hacks electronics. Why should I have to buy individual copies of the same ****ing weapon? On top of this, vendors don't restock until I level up a character, so if I'm maxed out at level 50 or level 60, I'm ****ed unless I want to do another "New Game +". Buying Armor in ME1 was outright tedious just because of the randomness of the loot (i.e. Medium Armor-holic, but oops, game likes to **** me over with the Fugly and impractical Light and Heavy Armors)

[88mphSlayer]

AlanC9 wrote...

Davescarface wrote...

The point I was trying to make is why make such an unbelievable sequel but make looting so non existent?

Well, my personal answer to that is that loot shouldn't be in ME in the first place, except in very extraordinary circumstances like getting a Collector weapon or some such.

Edit: actually, the ME2 loot wasn't too bad. But buying stuff in shops was silly -- Cerberus coulldn't afford to buy this stuff themselves?

spend 4 billion credits resurrecting Shepard and rebuilding the Normandy with a new crew over 2 years to take on a deadly enemy with minimal knowledge whilst tracking down the most elusive characters in the galaxy

make Shepard find his own armor upgrades from some shady guy on Omega (lulz)

anyways to be honest i don't think any loot system would make sense under Cerberus in Mass Effect 2, it would always be a plot contrivance... gathering intel would make more sense which is pretty much exactly what they had you do - you gather intel, then Cerberus takes the intel and turns it into something you can purchase with the money Cerberus has been throwing at you to get the job done

maybe in ME3 the chaos and limited resources of a war with the reapers will make looting make sense again

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 07 mars 2011 - 08:59 .

[Il Divo]

stu117 wrote...
why? why souldnt bioware put in a loot system it makes perfect sense to me. you act like its a drawback, Just because the loot system was flawed in ME1 dosnt mean that they cant make an improved version of it. a good looting system can make an otherwise boring game fun IE:borderlands, Imagine what it could do for ME

Alot of it simply comes from context. Most (if not all) Bioware RPGs before Mass Effect always involved a protagonist 'on the run', a refugee, etc, forced to make do with spare resources. In Baldur's Gate, Gorion dies and the PC runs to the Friendly Arm inn. In Kotor, your character operates under a hostile Sith quarantine, etc.

Mass Effect really is the first game that breaks away from this style and places the character in the position of an authority figure. This is Commander Shepard, first human Spectre, backed by the Citadel Council who apparently has to pick up spare weapons off random mercs because the Alliance/Council refuses to provide him proper resources? It strikes me as extremely non-sensical, made worse by the terrible interface and that you probably pick up more useless weapons in ME than in other RPGs (such as Kotor) which handled loot much better.

Edit: Neverwinter Nights might serve as the one exception to this.

Modifié par Il Divo, 07 mars 2011 - 09:06 .