169 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I... kind of like King Cailan. Scratch that, I like him a lot. From what we see of him in-game, he has way more responsibility than he's ready for, I admit, but he's fundamentally a very decent and brave man. His biggest flaw seems to be that he has no idea of the realities of war, which is quite frankly extremely odd; you'd think that Maric the rebel warlord would have made sure that this knowledge was drilled into him from an early age, and Loghain would eagerly comply. I suppose neither one of them was actually in charge of raising him.
So yes, he was stupid at Ostagar, and I do think it was partially responsible for getting him and his men killed, but neither he nor Loghain knew that the darkspawn horde would be that big. It's unfortunate what he brought his people into, but I don't think that he deserves to be condemned for what he did; he did his best with the upbringing and resources that he had, and it simply wasn't enough. I wish he'd lived.

As a sidenote, something I find odd: Loghain at one point mentions that only Cailan's vanity demanded that there be a Blight... except that Cailan didn't think it was a Blight either, because of the lack of archdemon. He was a bit disappointed, but not insistent on the matter.

[TJPags]

Oh, if only this part of the forum was still as quick moving as it once was.  The floodgates would have been slammed open, then. 


I think Caillan is a bit of an idiot (which seems to run in the Thierin bloodline), but other than that, I'm not sure he's deserving of scorn.

One point, regarding his appreciation for the realities of war - I'd think it's hard to actually get such an appreciation without being in battle.  And I don't think Caillan has even been in battle.  Training, even large scale training engagements, do not, I think, equal being in battle.

His problem was that the people with that kind of experience at the time seem to have been limited to Duncan  - who indicates he doesn't want to seem "pushy" (I'm generalizing what he says here) about giving advice to the King - and Loghain.  And while we can all debate the reasons for it, Loghain seems to have either his own agenda, or a level of exasperation with Caillan that prevents him from making his point strongly enough.

[Xilizhra]

I have no idea what Loghain was up to with Cailan, honestly. Is Ostagar really the best time to start telling Cailan how to plan properly? Who the hell was in charge of his upbringing? Cailan himself definitely isn't cowardly and he doesn't seem lazy either... so either he was too naturally thickheaded to absorb any information, or someone else screwed up.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

No, they weren't. Maric was actually a pretty absent father, as shown in the Calling, and wasn't really there or involved in Cailan's life much after Rowan, cailan's mother died. Loghain was a general and Maric's right hand man, and had his hands full trying to take care of maric's political responsibilities, which maric had mostly abandoned, so he didn't have the time nor desire to take on Maric's paternal responsibilities as well.

Maric was a pretty poor excuse for a father as far as both of his sons were concerned, even with Alistair, who he handed over to Eamon. So yeah, I can see that Cailan's stupidity wasn't totally his fault, as he was not raised properly, as a future king should be. But Maric was too self-aborobed in his own problems to really notice, so Cailan mostly likely grew up with the wealth and comfort of being a royal heir, but without the proper education and guidance from his father he would need to become a decent ruler. Hence why as king, he was little more than a spoiled brat with dreams of glory and grandeur, but lacked the wisdom and intelligence to to realize where fantasy ended and reality must begin.

But I disagree that he doesn't deserve to be condemned. He was an idiot who cared more about his own glory and outshining his father's legend than he did about the stabilty and welfare of his nation, and ended up costing the lives of his men in the process. Had he survived, would have made one big choice that would have most likely spelled the death of Ferelden as an independant and soverign nation.

[Xilizhra]

Remember that Cailan didn't think that it was a real Blight either. He had no idea of the danger he was walking into, and probably sincerely thought that the risk to the nation was minimal. Yes, he should have seen farther, but he didn't knowingly and carelessly disregard the approaching doom.

Had he lived, I think he would have been extremely shocked and penitent over the whole thing.

[Mariefoxprice83]

I like Cailan. He reminds me of me because he's in love with legends and dreams of glory as much as I am...more so on the lgory but then we don't live in a world in which that sort of glory is possible so I have to get it from books and games. I was so gutted when Cailan died, putting an end to my dreams of romancing him!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

No, that I highly doubt, since had he lived, he was planning on divorcing Anora and marrying the Orlesian Empress.

I really doubt he;d be so shaken up and horrified over ostagar had he lived. He'd me more likely to think "bummer, dude. Well, there's still plenty of glory to be won, let's try another suicide charge on the archdemon!"

He lacks anything resembling awareness or maturity to really be that bothered. I mean, come on. In Ostagar, instead of being a king and acting like one, he spent his time drinking and gambling with the soldiers and Wardens, instead of actually thinking about the battle and taking it seriously.

He is an immature spoiled brat who thinks the world is some great, glorious tale that he wants to play a starring role in.

Whether he thought it was a Blight or not is not really the issue. His attitude and behavior, Blight or no, are that of a child, not a man who should be ruling his country instead of playing with his Warden buddies.

[Xilizhra]

You're right in that he was totally unqualified to rule the country, but I disagree that it was really his fault. I disagree even further that he'd have just blown it off; he's naive, not uncaring. He's quite horrified about the death of everyone in the Cousland estate in the HN origin, and he's also shocked and dismayed over the CE origin if you say "I killed an arl's son for raping my friend." Now you could say that this is just bias towards the nobility, but he doesn't sound angry at or suspicious of the Warden, and he doesn't seem to have a racist bone in his body, so I think he's sympathetic to her. I think that much death on his own hands would be a huge blow for him.

[TJPags]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

No, that I highly doubt, since had he lived, he was planning on divorcing Anora and marrying the Orlesian Empress.

I really doubt he;d be so shaken up and horrified over ostagar had he lived. He'd me more likely to think "bummer, dude. Well, there's still plenty of glory to be won, let's try another suicide charge on the archdemon!"

He lacks anything resembling awareness or maturity to really be that bothered. I mean, come on. In Ostagar, instead of being a king and acting like one, he spent his time drinking and gambling with the soldiers and Wardens, instead of actually thinking about the battle and taking it seriously.

He is an immature spoiled brat who thinks the world is some great, glorious tale that he wants to play a starring role in.

Whether he thought it was a Blight or not is not really the issue. His attitude and behavior, Blight or no, are that of a child, not a man who should be ruling his country instead of playing with his Warden buddies.

I agree with just about everything in this post, Skadi.  However, I also agree with a lot that's in your prior post, about Maric not teaching him what he needed to know, etc.

Those two combine to prevent me from having scorn for Caillan, or considering him reprehensible.  I still think he's an idiot, and dislike him since I generally dislike idiots, but it's a long way (for me) from laughing at someone who's an idiot to scorning them as someone with no regard for others.

[Persephone]

While I may despise the brat utterly, his death scene did move me.

However, he lost whatever initial sympathy I might have had for him when he whined about there being no Archdemon sightings and going on and on about everyone wanting to steal his glory and being bored by strategy. As a woman I also despise him for his treatment of his wife.

[Xilizhra]

Well, I'll ding him several points for sleeping around, though fewer than I would have if it wasn't an arranged marriage.

I also find it quite difficult to not have sympathy for anyone.

[Persephone]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I'll ding him several points for sleeping around, though fewer than I would have if it wasn't an arranged marriage.

I also find it quite difficult to not have sympathy for anyone.

It isn't just sleeping around. (Every king did that...) It's planning to ditch a loyal woman who isn't even 30 yet because she has supposedly "failed" as a royal brood mare.

[Xilizhra]

Oh, right.
Well, it's a dickish thing to do, but... isn't it practical for the same reason that it's practical to not have Cailan fight on the front lines? Because the kingdom needs an heir? We never learn how Cailan feels about it, just that Eamon said it was a good idea.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Oh, I doubt he's completely heartless, or incapable of feeling bad about wrong descisions that have been costly and harmful. He's not "evil" in the traditional sense of the word.

What I do think, however, is that he is overwhelmingly childish, in that his guilt and remorse would not last long, nor would they have any signifigant efefct on hos descision making. It would be, i think, similar to what a young child would feel, after breaking some valuable or important posession of their mother's while they were running around the house, throwing a ball around. Even though they had been warned not to repeatedly. They would feel terrible for five minutes, and probably apologize to whoever the posession belonged to, but then go right back to being a child, and engage in the same reckless, carefree behavior that caused the accident in the first place. Because children generall do not have the attention span or capacity for the kind of long reflection that is associated with changes in outlook or behavior. At least without some form of dicipline involved.

That's generally how I see Cailan. Like a five year old running around the house playing ball games indoors, in a house full of things that could easily be broken or damaged by such youthful antics. One who, unless disciplined and given some sort of punishment to deter him from doing it, will continue, because he is not developed or mature enough to really be deterred by the consequences of his actions.

[Persephone]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Oh, I doubt he's completely heartless, or incapable of feeling bad about wrong descisions that have been costly and harmful. He's not "evil" in the traditional sense of the word.

What I do think, however, is that he is overwhelmingly childish, in that his guilt and remorse would not last long, nor would they have any signifigant efefct on hos descision making. It would be, i think, similar to what a young child would feel, after breaking some valuable or important posession of their mother's while they were running around the house, throwing a ball around. Even though they had been warned not to repeatedly. They would feel terrible for five minutes, and probably apologize to whoever the posession belonged to, but then go right back to being a child, and engage in the same reckless, carefree behavior that caused the accident in the first place. Because children generall do not have the attention span or capacity for the kind of long reflection that is associated with changes in outlook or behavior. At least without some form of dicipline involved.

That's generally how I see Cailan. Like a five year old running around the house playing ball games indoors, in a house full of things that could easily be broken or damaged by such youthful antics. One who, unless disciplined and given some sort of punishment to deter him from doing it, will continue, because he is not developed or mature enough to really be deterred by the consequences of his actions.

Well said, Skadi. I completely agree. I also don't see him as evil or malicious. But dangerously reckless and careless. A danger to the country he is supposed to rule and protect.

[Xilizhra]

Unfortunately, the best man for that job seems to be more concerned with manipulating Cailan's nature to enhance his own power, and the other best man is too wrapped up in military work.

[TJPags]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Oh, I doubt he's completely heartless, or incapable of feeling bad about wrong descisions that have been costly and harmful. He's not "evil" in the traditional sense of the word.

What I do think, however, is that he is overwhelmingly childish, in that his guilt and remorse would not last long, nor would they have any signifigant efefct on hos descision making. It would be, i think, similar to what a young child would feel, after breaking some valuable or important posession of their mother's while they were running around the house, throwing a ball around. Even though they had been warned not to repeatedly. They would feel terrible for five minutes, and probably apologize to whoever the posession belonged to, but then go right back to being a child, and engage in the same reckless, carefree behavior that caused the accident in the first place. Because children generall do not have the attention span or capacity for the kind of long reflection that is associated with changes in outlook or behavior. At least without some form of dicipline involved.

That's generally how I see Cailan. Like a five year old running around the house playing ball games indoors, in a house full of things that could easily be broken or damaged by such youthful antics. One who, unless disciplined and given some sort of punishment to deter him from doing it, will continue, because he is not developed or mature enough to really be deterred by the consequences of his actions.

In my opinion, this sums him up perfectly.

Very well said. 

[_Somebody]

I liked the dude a lot too. He was overly enthusiastic, but I think he just wanted to match up to his fathers reputation. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

Unfortunately, the best man for that job seems to be more concerned with manipulating Cailan's nature to enhance his own power, and the other best man is too wrapped up in military work.

Depends on who you mean. Loghain was definitely not interested in power, but was concerned about Cailan's naieve overtures to the Orlesians, who were ruled by a woman who is renowned for being a cunning, ruthless mastermind and brilliant manipulator.  Loghain's main concern was the country, and he felt Cailan was threatening that country.

Really, in terms of rulership of Ferelden, given who we have in game, the best "man" for the job was Anora, who was the one, as far as domestic policy and the running of the country from inside, was the one actually keeping the country together and functional during the 5 years they ruled together.

I agree with Anora's assement, however, that Cailan would have made a pretty good bard. He loves stories and legends and shows enthusiasm for such tales, and could probably keep people entertained in taverns and festhalls quite well. He would be happy having a captive audience to whom he could spin great and fanciful tales, and probably include himself in them more often than not.

[_Somebody]

Wait, Anora really said that? 

I dont remember her saying anything about how Cailan should have been a bard. 

[Xilizhra]

Depends on who you mean. Loghain was definitely not interested in power, but was concerned about Cailan's naieve overtures to the Orlesians, who were ruled by a woman who is renowned for being a cunning, ruthless mastermind and brilliant manipulator. Loghain's main concern was the country, and he felt Cailan was threatening that country.

Eamon was the first one, Loghain the second.

Really, in terms of rulership of Ferelden, given who we have in game, the best "man" for the job was Anora, who was the one, as far as domestic policy and the running of the country from inside, was the one actually keeping the country together and functional during the 5 years they ruled together.

Well, yes, she was excellent at that, but doing all of Cailan's work for him didn't help him learn responsibility...

[Persephone]

Somebody wrote...

Wait, Anora really said that? 

I dont remember her saying anything about how Cailan should have been a bard. 

Talk to her after you rescue her and ask her some questions. Interesting info on Cailan and Loghain can be found there.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Yeah, she will talk to you about Cailan and Loghain when you talk to her about supporting or not supporting her as queen. She tells you Cailan loved his stories, and was a dashing, roguish figure, who would have probably made a better bard than king. She does speak with some fondness of him, despite hinting that he was an idiot, even if a cute idiot.

I don't even think, from the perspective of him as king, that putting aside Anora to marry someone else more "fertile" is particularly terrible. It's a sad reality of dynastic rule. What I find unforgivable and reprehensible was that he was planning on divorcing his wife and marrying the Orlesian empress. Which probably had nothing to do with attending his duty as king to produce heirs, but more to do with his hare-brained schemes and dreams of glory and shinyness.

[Bahlgan]

I actually respect Cailan very much, considering how extremely idealistic and somewhat lacking of information he may be. My favorite aspect of him is his optimism and his courage; two things about a King that most seem to overlook without effort. Sure, he may seem as a spoiled brat to some, but so do most if not all of the nobles. Unfortunately in a feudal society, the nobles and royalty, being the over-privileged ones, tend to be a bit less mature and more pampered, and must work harder than others to attain a battle-scarred status of toughness.

Let's also not forget that Cailan, as a king, had been terribly misinformed about the true natures of a Blight (thought Duncan could have done a tad better with describing the agile prowess of how Darkspawn emerge from the shadows) and despite all this managed to keep the morale real high on the field, save for a few lost souls like the one on the stretcher.

I feel that if Cailan had survived the Blight, he would have developed a dramatic increase in a sense of responsibility, much like Alistair did in my play-through. Alot of good people died on the field before they could have learned some valuable insight from the Fifth Blight.

Quite honestly, I can understand why some would not like Cailan for "planning to leave Anora for the Empress", which I myself am not even 100% certain is actually true, but some of the things I am hearing about him being spoiled and a brat and a fool who deserved to die, without being humble about it, kind of are immeasurably sickening; like walking into a gas chamber without a hazmat suit.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Cailan's plan to divorce Anore and marry Celene was confirmed by Gaider, and was originally going to have it's own big subplot. But it was cut from the final release.

So it's really not in question of whether or not he planned on doing it, he was. It just never ended up becoming part of the game.