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[HolyAvenger]

I'm not even sure why there's so much Celene hate. Typically dynastic marriages to seal a peace deal wasn't unheard of either, neither was setting aside wives in favour of more beneficial marriage alliances.

Just coz Loghain still hates on Orlais doesn't mean that Cailan was doing the wrong thing.

[Mariefoxprice83]

Where is Cailan's plan to marry the Empress referenced? I dont remember seeing it, unless it was in a codex entry I didn't bother to read.

[TJPags]

Mariefoxprice83 wrote...

Where is Cailan's plan to marry the Empress referenced? I dont remember seeing it, unless it was in a codex entry I didn't bother to read.

There was a deleted plot that involved the Empress of Orlais being in Denerim during the Blight - or maybe at the very beginning, not sure - in which the marriage was made clear.

That plot never made it into the game.

That plot also involved Loghain finding out about it - and as you can imagine, being none too happy.

The only real leftover from that in game is the letters we find during RtO.  Which, to me, don't = marriage to Celene.

However, the poisoning of Arl Eamon, and Loghain leaving the battle, certainly seem to make more sense to me as leftovers from that plot.

So, in short, there's really nothing in the game that gives us this info.

IMO, of course.

[Joy Divison]

Normally it's my job as a historian to berate idiotic rulers but the judgment leveled at Cailan here is way too harsh.

Cailan lacks wisdom, but he is not a child incapable of reflecting upon his own mistakes and altering his behavior. When I played an elf, both city and dalish, I saw a human leader willing to admit humans were wrong and had a debt to repay, which is more than I can say about just about every human I encountered. My CE was struck at the naivety he exhibited about what an Alienage was actually like, but impressed the solution "purge" never entered the man's mind. He maybe naive to think he can magically make good on past human mistakes, but that is mature statesmanship, more than I saw from the Loghains, Eamons, Howes, and the "I vote for Lohain" moron at the Landsmeet.

I can't defend Cailan for his conduct and his vainglorious personality at Ostagar, but he was hardly the sole architect of that debacle. Cailan did invite the Orleasian wardens to Ostagar, which Loghain objected to because they weren't needed for Fereldan to "defend itself." Loghain's battle plan also fell apart because he seriously underestimated the threat the Darkspawn posed.

I also think his statement, "Our arguments with the Orlesians are a thing of the past," is also fine statesmanship. They were. A lot of people on these forums and Fereldans may hate Orlais, but Cailan's attitude is, for me, admirable. His motives man be highly questionable but the sentiment I still think was an honest one as well as one I feel is - unless people think it is wise to constantly spit on neighbors and fight a war every generation or so.

He is no way in the same league as the Howes, Vaughns, and Zathrians. As a person, he is far more admirable than many of the miscreants you comes across like Lloyd, Jarvia, Uldred, the dalish hunter who attacks you for ending the curse, and the literal hundreds of people you kill who have nothing better to do than rob, threaten, and attack others in pursuit their own selfish agenda during a blight.

[Erev Lace]

I liked Cailan at once in the game; made me think of King Arthur. He was all bravado and high hopes and good heart - when I did the HN origin I was struck by his dedication to doing the right thing. And as for the business of Anora ... I really can't blame him. It struck me that marrying the Empress bothered him, with the description of the note's condition, but at the same time he needed to consider the future of his dynasty.

[Costin_Razvan]

Normally it's my job as a historian to berate idiotic rulers but the judgment leveled at Cailan here is way too harsh.

And as a fellow historian I would state the **** deserved to be locked up in a dungeon under Howe's mercy for his entire life.

I don't give a crap for the arranged marriage deal argument. He did ultimately marry Anora once his father was out of the picture and whatever political argument might be for him to do be forced into he DID have a choice and he choose to marry her then cheat on her. Everyone has reasons for doing foul things ( even people like Zathrian and Vaughn ) but that does NOT excuse in the slighest for what they did.

Cailan was directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of soldiers and planning to sell his entire country to Orlais, Whatever arguments to try and sympathize with such a man are meaningless.

 I also think his statement, "Our arguments with the Orlesians are a thing of the past," is also fine statesmanship. They were.  

It took the British and French a long time to get past their old disputes and become allies, it took the Americans and British just as long too, and hell the countries I am talking about now did not commit the kind of attrocities the Orlesians committed towards the Fereldans.

You just can't make peace with someone who raped women, planted the stakes of your nobles on spikes and murdered almost everyone in the Royal Family. What do YOU think would have happened to Cailan had he actually married Celene? ( besides Loghain, Anora and possibly a few dozen nobles getting assassinated? ) that he would have lived a long and merry life and that Fereldan would prosper?

He would have been killed just like Catherine the Great killed her husband and Fereldan would not have benefited in any way from such a union.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 mars 2011 - 01:38 .

[Addai]

Even with all his faults and the muck he made of Ostagar and would have made afterward if he had won, I've still always liked Cailan.  I wanted so badly to ****** him off with my elven PCs and he was infuriatingly gracious.

I wish he could have grown up with his mom. Rowan's influence would probably would have made a big difference.

[Joy Divison]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Normally it's my job as a historian to berate idiotic rulers but the judgment leveled at Cailan here is way too harsh.

And as a fellow historian I would state the **** deserved to be locked up in a dungeon under Howe's mercy for his entire life.

I don't give a crap for the arranged marriage deal argument. He did ultimately marry Anora once his father was out of the picture and whatever political argument might be for him to do be forced into he DID have a choice and he choose to marry her then cheat on her. Everyone has reasons for doing foul things ( even people like Zathrian and Vaughn ) but that does NOT excuse in the slighest for what they did.

Cailan was directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of soldiers and planning to sell his entire country to Orlais, Whatever arguments to try and sympathize with such a man are meaningless.

 I also think his statement, "Our arguments with the Orlesians are a thing of the past," is also fine statesmanship. They were.  

It took the British and French a long time to get past their old disputes and become allies, it took the Americans and British just as long too, and hell the countries I am talking about now did not commit the kind of attrocities the Orlesians committed towards the Fereldans.

You just can't make peace with someone who raped women, planted the stakes of your nobles on spikes and murdered almost everyone in the Royal Family. What do YOU think would have happened to Cailan had he actually married Celene? ( besides Loghain, Anora and possibly a few dozen nobles getting assassinated? ) that he would have lived a long and merry life and that Fereldan would prosper?

He would have been killed just like Catherine the Great killed her husband and Fereldan would not have benefited in any way from such a union.

I'm a little fuzzy on the Cailan - Celene arrangement.  I did not read any of the books so I feel at a disadvanatge sometimes partaking in these debates.  If you don't read these books or have the Gaider quotes handy, it is much more diffcult to appreciate Loghain then if you only have the game to go by.  For isntance, you don't the poison was supposed be non-fatal and it was not connected to Ostagar.

King tossing aside aging queen for someone for whatever reason (is Celene younger, prettier, promises political gains, etc.), how does this make him any different from the Charles VI, VII, and the I don't give a crap?  Monarchs marrying other foreign monarchs wasn't exactly uncommon.  And it didn't mean cultural extinction.  Neither the English nor French cultures disappeared because their ruling families were intertwined for hundreds of years.  Exactly how is he "selling out" Ferelden?  I'm not necessarily arguing, from the game it just is not clear that Cailan is.

Also Ferelden IS at peace with Orlais and has been for what, 25 years?  That sounds like to me the arguments are a thing of the past, especially if a prominent family like the Couslands feel comfortable at Orleasian courts and if the King's uncle marries a member of the Orlesian nobility.  It does take statesmenship to recognize unpopular foreign policies that are reality/beneficial (the gentlemen at Versailles might have donethe world a favor in 1919 had they kept that in mind) and I see no in game evidence that peace with Orlais is harmful to Ferelden.

Edit: Cailan was not directly responsbile for the death of thousands of soldiers because he had a lot of help digging those graves, not least from Loghain.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 08 mars 2011 - 06:16 .

[thesuperdarkone]

Joy Divison wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Normally it's my job as a historian to berate idiotic rulers but the judgment leveled at Cailan here is way too harsh.

And as a fellow historian I would state the **** deserved to be locked up in a dungeon under Howe's mercy for his entire life.

I don't give a crap for the arranged marriage deal argument. He did ultimately marry Anora once his father was out of the picture and whatever political argument might be for him to do be forced into he DID have a choice and he choose to marry her then cheat on her. Everyone has reasons for doing foul things ( even people like Zathrian and Vaughn ) but that does NOT excuse in the slighest for what they did.

Cailan was directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of soldiers and planning to sell his entire country to Orlais, Whatever arguments to try and sympathize with such a man are meaningless.

 I also think his statement, "Our arguments with the Orlesians are a thing of the past," is also fine statesmanship. They were.  

It took the British and French a long time to get past their old disputes and become allies, it took the Americans and British just as long too, and hell the countries I am talking about now did not commit the kind of attrocities the Orlesians committed towards the Fereldans.

You just can't make peace with someone who raped women, planted the stakes of your nobles on spikes and murdered almost everyone in the Royal Family. What do YOU think would have happened to Cailan had he actually married Celene? ( besides Loghain, Anora and possibly a few dozen nobles getting assassinated? ) that he would have lived a long and merry life and that Fereldan would prosper?

He would have been killed just like Catherine the Great killed her husband and Fereldan would not have benefited in any way from such a union.

I'm a little fuzzy on the Cailan - Celene arrangement.  I did not read any of the books so I feel at a disadvanatge sometimes partaking in these debates.  If you don't read these books or have the Gaider quotes handy, it is much more diffcult to appreciate Loghain then if you only have the game to go by.  For isntance, you don't the poison was supposed be non-fatal and it was not connected to Ostagar.

King tossing aside aging queen for someone for whatever reason (is Celene younger, prettier, promises political gains, etc.), how does this make him any different from the Charles VI, VII, and the I don't give a crap?  Monarchs marrying other foreign monarchs wasn't exactly uncommon.  And it didn't mean cultural extinction.  Neither the English nor French cultures disappeared because their ruling families were intertwined for hundreds of years.  Exactly how is he "selling out" Ferelden?  I'm not necessarily arguing, from the game it just is not clear that Cailan is.

Also Ferelden IS at peace with Orlais and has been for what, 25 years?  That sounds like to me the arguments are a thing of the past, especially if a prominent family like the Couslands feel comfortable at Orleasian courts and if the King's uncle marries a member of the Orlesian nobility.  It does take statesmenship to recognize unpopular foreign policies that are reality/beneficial (the gentlemen at Versailles might have donethe world a favor in 1919 had they kept that in mind) and I see no in game evidence that peace with Orlais is harmful to Ferelden.

Edit: Cailan was not directly responsbile for the death of thousands of soldiers because he had a lot of help digging those graves, not least from Loghain.

 

The problem is that Celene, from what we hear of her, is apparently a cunning and somewhat Machiavellian ruler. That means she could know when an opportunity presents itself with Cailan. Like Catherine the Great who married someone and ended up assassinating him when she found someone better, Celene would manipulate the naive Cailan into an alliance which would end up politically uniting the countries. If you play an Orlesian Warden or hear some gossip, you know that many of Ferelden's citizens still resent Orlais for the occupation for good reason. If you read the books, you'd know Orlais had all Ferelden politics stopped in favor of the Orlesian court, all the farmers had to swear an oath or have their lands burned down, and the Chevaliers could rape and kill anyone they pleased ala Loghain's mom. Loghain also showed that the Orlesians basically took whatever they wanted and killed or ruined anyone who didn't agree with them. The marriage would've meant that Orlais could legally do this since Ferelden is now part of Orlais which would mean that Ferelden would have to support any wars that Orlais fought even if Ferelden doesn't want to. This also doesn't include the fact that the Chevaliers now legally are able to rape and pillage whoever they want. It would be the Stolen Throne all over again. Trust me when I say Ferelden was probably saved when Loghain did what he did, despite how gruesome and how many innocents were lost.

[PoisonTheCity]

Addai67 wrote...

Even with all his faults and the muck he made of Ostagar and would have made afterward if he had won, I've still always liked Cailan.  I wanted so badly to ****** him off with my elven PCs and he was infuriatingly gracious.

I wish he could have grown up with his mom. Rowan's influence would probably would have made a big difference.

This. After the whole Celene debacle, I tried to not-like him. I really did.

But I can't.

Also, Peter Bramhill

[Mahumia]

I think that Cailan is suffering from being shielded from anything in his youth and having to miss proper care from his parents on top of that. Being locked up in an ivory tower doesn't teach you how things are going outside, what the lives of others look like.
As was noted earlier, his education has probably not been that great either. I can imagine that it's hard to get thrown into the deep and 'behave like a proper king' for your people, when you don't even know what that's supposed to mean, except from stories you've heard and books you've read.

I think he's a naieve man indeed, and perhaps easy to influence as well. Seeing the grip Eamon tries to get on Alistair, it wouldn't surprise me if he had quite an influence in court under Cailan as well. Albeit behind the scenes, since Anora knows very well how to rule, and acts accordingly. Anora has simply had the education and raising that Cailan has been lacking.

Does it make Cailans decision to divorce her right? Absolutely not, but I think we're lacking sufficient information to get a real image of what was happening. Who knows if Eamon has been pushing Cailan to get rid of Anora? The pressure of producing an heir is quite clear in the game: Alastair is clearly having his doubts as he becomes king.
Furthermore he's always been in the shadow of his father. A man who he apparently has never truely known. Is it then so strange that a man, who's living in his own fantasy world anyway, dreams of getting his own place in history, other than 'son of'? Add to that the misinformation and misinterpretation, and you get a nice scenario for a soap.

Is Ferelden up for a better future without Cailan? Well, sadly enough yes, imho. He would have been to easy to influence if he'd marry the Empress, which would have indeed had let to the downfall of Ferelden. Cailan is not a bad man, he was just lacking the knowledge and education that would have prepared him for his role.

[Addai]

PoisonTheCity wrote...

Also, Peter Bramhill

Indeed. 

[Wereparrot]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 planning to sell his entire country to Orlais

I don't think there was any malicious intent on Cailan's part; I think that he really did see it as a chance to ally Ferelden with Orlais, so I don't think this is wanton treason. For me, he really believes his statement that 'our arguements with the Orlesians are a thing of the past'. There is no doubt he is being extremely foolish and naive, but I would just put this down to his premature idealism.

[Wulfram]

I like Cailan. I also think his decisions at Ostagar were quite reasonable, given the information he had available.

[Wereparrot]

Wulfram wrote...

I like Cailan. I also think his decisions at Ostagar were quite reasonable, given the information he had available.

A couple of volleys of arrows at most? No cavalry? No lances?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...
I wish he could have grown up with his mom. Rowan's influence would probably would have made a big difference.

I agree. Unlike Maric, who seemed to have a penchant for avoiding his responsibilities of kingship and adulthood, Rowan certainly did not, was more practical and driven to carry out her duties, and would have probably inserted appropriate doses of reality, when necessary, into Cailan's bedtime stories. And I think he would have been a far more realistic and competant king because of it.

Just goes to show that Therin men can't seem to keep anything together unless they have a tough woman to keep them in line.

[_Somebody]

Wereparrot wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I like Cailan. I also think his decisions at Ostagar were quite reasonable, given the information he had available.

A couple of volleys of arrows at most? No cavalry? No lances?

Didnt Loghain plan out the entire battle?
Everyone tells you that Loghain is behind the tactics of the battle, so that was all probably his idea.

And no calvery or lances because BW probably didnt feel like adding horses to the game, and all the extra stuff. I mean the PC and Duncan probably rode to Ostagar on horses, but we never saw them.

Modifié par Somebody, 10 mars 2011 - 03:41 .

[Wereparrot]

Somebody wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I like Cailan. I also think his decisions at Ostagar were quite reasonable, given the information he had available.

A couple of volleys of arrows at most? No cavalry? No lances?

Didnt Loghain plan out the entire battle?
Everyone tells you that Loghain is behind the tactics of the battle, so that was all probably his idea.

This, then, tarnishes his reputation as a general.

And no calvery or lances because BW probably didnt feel like adding horses to the game, and all the extra stuff. I mean the PC and Duncan probably rode to Ostagar on horses, but we never saw them.

I realise that, but as far as the actual battle, the decision not to include a cavalry charge after a significant rain of arrows was ridiculous.

As it happens, it could and should have been a relatively straight-forward victory. Two lines of archers, one at the side of the battlefied, to catch the darkspawn in the crossfire and create confusion, as well as mowing down a sizeable number of darkspawn. Then a cavalry charge from the main lines, and after the lances are broken, the mounted knights to draw their swords. The men at arms and knights at the rear of both lines would hold the line and kill any darkspawn that made it through. There is no need to waste energy running two hundred yards to meet the enemy.

Really, the main reason the battle was lost is that they broke the line far too soon; and that definitely was Cailan's fault.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, the main reason is that the darkspawn horde was far larger than anyone thought.

[Wereparrot]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, the main reason is that the darkspawn horde was far larger than anyone thought.

It doesn't matter how large it was. If they had held the line, it would've given them a far better chance.

Edit:

Holding the line gives an army time to think and get ready for battle. It also preserves valuable energy and means that when the enemy reach you they will already be in a poorer physical condition than you. And, perhaps most importantly of all, it keeps your options open. Once you are commited to a charge, you cannot stop.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 10 mars 2011 - 07:15 .

[Glorfindel709]

You dont think that an enemy like the darkspawn would spook the horses and make a cavalry charge ineffective?

Failed strategy or not, Ostagar happened because a very young man wanted to play at war. He hoped for a "war like the tales" and considered fighting and dying 'Glorious *shakes head like a prancing horse*'.

He showed remarkable irresponsibility for a sovereign and a military commander in charge of his troops.Granted, it wasnt helped by Loghain denying the Orlesian Wardens but 4 Legions of Chevaliers coming through into Ferelden is just asking for another take over once the Blight is taken care of.

The Golden Ponce deserves neither appreciation or sympathy from anyone or anything but the Ogre who had to clean his nails of the blood afterwards.

[Wereparrot]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

You dont think that an enemy like the darkspawn would spook the horses and make a cavalry charge ineffective?

It's possible. I wouldn't have thought so, but maybe. The archers would have to deal with the ogre, because that would spook them.

[Glorfindel709]

Double post? weird...

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 10 mars 2011 - 07:27 .