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[Sarethus]

 A bit late but I largely sympathise with Cailan myself.


All my warden's ended up liking him when they first met, his genuine sympathy and desire to help them toucning most of my characters,  while becoming a bit wary later upon realising the seriousness of the darkspawn threat with Duncan. He might have seemed a bit of a glory hound upon during the first meeting but this didn't seem so much of a permanent character flaw rather then him just being young. 


The battle at Ostagar was largely a mixture of Duncan's (not revealing all he knew about the Darkspawn threat) and Loghain's fault (no real need to elaborate here I feel.) and a bit of Bioware for not portraying that battle properly (Forget horses, they should have stayed behind the walls and defensive positions but that does not make dramatic story telling.)   


Divorcing Anora is largely political and I doubt even Anora would have objected as far as that went.Marrying Celene however was a large mark against him for being naive and being an inexperianced politician. However this I blame largely on his background and upbringing. 


Marric was not around to give him proper instruction and both Loghain and Anora (and on hindsight Eamon) I feel were much happier ruling the kingdom then instructing Cailan how to be a good ruler. In my view he needed someone to help him rule Fereldan but instead had people who wanted to rule instead of him.  


I believe Cailan eventually got a bit tired of this and did try to take steps to rule in deed as well as in name, however with this being a largely solo effort with everyone wanting something from him, it was not surprising that he made mistakes such as marraige to Celene. (Nothing actually wrong with an alliance but the disparity in power and poilitical experiance between the parties involved would have made full-scale union disastorus.)

Bahlgan wrote...
I actually respect Cailan very much, considering how extremely idealistic and somewhat lacking of information he may be. My favorite aspect of him is his optimism and his courage; two things about a King that most seem to overlook without effort. Sure, he may seem as a spoiled brat to some, but so do most if not all of the nobles. Unfortunately in a feudal society, the nobles and royalty, being the over-privileged ones, tend to be a bit less mature and more pampered, and must work harder than others to attain a battle-scarred status of toughness.
Let's also not forget that Cailan, as a king, had been terribly misinformed about the true natures of a Blight (thought Duncan could have done a tad better with describing the agile prowess of how Darkspawn emerge from the shadows) and despite all this managed to keep the morale real high on the field, save for a few lost souls like the one on the stretcher.
I feel that if Cailan had survived the Blight, he would have developed a dramatic increase in a sense of responsibility, much like Alistair did in my play-through. Alot of good people died on the field before they could have learned some valuable insight from the Fifth Blight.
Quite honestly, I can understand why some would not like Cailan for "planning to leave Anora for the Empress", which I myself am not even 100% certain is actually true, but some of the things I am hearing about him being spoiled and a brat and a fool who deserved to die, without being humble about it, kind of are immeasurably sickening; like walking into a gas chamber without a hazmat suit.

Bahglan stated much of what I feel as well particularly the bolded part. I honestly believe that if Cailan had survived he would have been hardend by his experiance and would have much the same chances as Alistair to become a better ruler. Honestly going on a journey with my female HN warden or even Leliana might have given him enough political acumen.  

Now I have a Leliana/Cailan Fanfic idea to suddenly start working on...

Modifié par Sarethus, 28 mars 2011 - 12:03 .

[Wulfram]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

You dont think that an enemy like the darkspawn would spook the horses and make a cavalry charge ineffective?

Failed strategy or not, Ostagar happened because a very young man wanted to play at war. He hoped for a "war like the tales" and considered fighting and dying 'Glorious *shakes head like a prancing horse*'.
.

So Cailan should have abandoned half his Kingdom to the blight without a fight?  Because I can't see any other alternative - north of Ostagar there's nowhere to hold the darkspawn, not east of the Frostbacks anyway.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wulfram wrote...

So Cailan should have abandoned half his Kingdom to the blight without a fight?  Because I can't see any other alternative - north of Ostagar there's nowhere to hold the darkspawn, not east of the Frostbacks anyway.

No, he should have handled the situation like a rational grown up, not some kid enmored with fairy tales.

For starters, he should have waited for re-enforcements from the other nobles. Highever and Redcliffe's forces had not arrived yet, and those were the two biggest armies, besides Gwaren, that Ferelden had. He should have also not been out gambling and drinking with the soldiers, he should have been paying more attention to Loghain's battle plans and working out how to survive realistically. And most important at all, as king, without an heir, he should have been nowhere near the front lines, but in the rear commanding and making sure everything was functioning correctly.

So yeah, he threw away the country because he wanted to play hero, rather than king.

[Wulfram]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

So Cailan should have abandoned half his Kingdom to the blight without a fight?  Because I can't see any other alternative - north of Ostagar there's nowhere to hold the darkspawn, not east of the Frostbacks anyway.

No, he should have handled the situation like a rational grown up, not some kid enmored with fairy tales.

For starters, he should have waited for re-enforcements from the other nobles. Highever and Redcliffe's forces had not arrived yet, and those were the two biggest armies, besides Gwaren, that Ferelden had.

Doing that would mean abandoning Ostagar and thus exposing most of Fereldan to the Darkspawn - you've got an impossibly wide front to defend, so you're left with the choice of either splitting your forces and likely being defeated in detail or leaving 2 of Denerim, Redcliffe and Gwaren exposed.  Plus, the Horde was being reinforced too - there's little reason to believe that waiting would have resulted in a more favourable balance of forces, while it would almost certainly have led to the battle being in fought in a less favourable position and with more disastrous results should things go wrong.

He should have also not been out gambling and drinking with the soldiers, he should have been paying more attention to Loghain's battle plans and working out how to survive realistically. And most important at all, as king, without an heir, he should have been nowhere near the front lines, but in the rear commanding and making sure everything was functioning correctly.

So yeah, he threw away the country because he wanted to play hero, rather than king.

Fighting on the front lines is normal and sensible for a pre-modern commander.  Command and control is not sufficient to have a meaningful influence on the battle from the rear, while there's a meaningful boost to morale from having your King leading from the front.  Plus, the prestige gained for proving your valour in battle enables you to command and rule far more effectively than a King whose courage is seen as questionable .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
Doing that would mean abandoning Ostagar and thus exposing most of Fereldan to the Darkspawn

Except they've been fighting the darkspawn for weeks, if not months, before Ostagar. Why didn't he call on Recliffe for reinforcements from the very beginning or weeks before Ostagar? Why didn't he send emissaries to Orzammar?

Probably because he thinks having the mighty Grey Wardens by his side is enough.  

Furthermore, a defensive location like Ostagar is only useful if the semi-barbarous Fereldens actually understood tactical concepts like shield wall. And sometimes, lands should be given up and sacrificed. Sticking to a defensive position just for the sake of it, is not always the sound and sensible strategy to do.

EDIT: in fact, since they only use longswords, Fereldans fighting in a chokepoint is detrimental. They do not have the equipment or tactical mindset to make use of a defensive location to its fullest potential.

Fighting on the front lines is normal and sensible for a pre-modern commander. 

It's actually very rare. Most commanders were present in the frontlines to inspire their troops, but they seldom actually fought. Furthermore, most of them only entered the fray at a key critical moment. See Caesar in Alesia. They spent most of their time not on the frontlines actually issuing orders because battles are more than playing with swords and gold armor.

The image of a warrior commander is most of the time the result of propaganda.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 avril 2011 - 12:37 .

[Addai]

The horde at the final battle was much larger than anyone expected- they erupt from the ground, recall- and the early battles had gone well. There was no reason to call for Orzammar or Redcliffe. We know he wanted Orlesians for other reasons than to mount a defense. Loghain didn't think it was a Blight and Cailan discounted a Blight's ferociousness and between the two of them they fubar'ed it.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

So Cailan should have abandoned half his Kingdom to the blight without a fight?  Because I can't see any other alternative - north of Ostagar there's nowhere to hold the darkspawn, not east of the Frostbacks anyway.

No, he should have handled the situation like a rational grown up, not some kid enmored with fairy tales.

For starters, he should have waited for re-enforcements from the other nobles. Highever and Redcliffe's forces had not arrived yet, and those were the two biggest armies, besides Gwaren, that Ferelden had. He should have also not been out gambling and drinking with the soldiers, he should have been paying more attention to Loghain's battle plans and working out how to survive realistically. And most important at all, as king, without an heir, he should have been nowhere near the front lines, but in the rear commanding and making sure everything was functioning correctly.

So yeah, he threw away the country because he wanted to play hero, rather than king.

Highever had arrived (Fergus is out scouting, recall).  Redcliffe had not even been summoned.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 avril 2011 - 02:57 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

The horde at the final battle was much larger than anyone expected- they erupt from the ground, recall- and the early battles had gone well. There was no reason to call for Orzammar or Redcliffe. We know he wanted Orlesians for other reasons than to mount a defense. Loghain didn't think it was a Blight and Cailan discounted a Blight's ferociousness and between the two of them they fubar'ed it.

Except they kept growing in numbers with each battle. Any prudent leader would have taken necessary precautions and called upon the one state that actually fights darkspawn 24/7 to at least discuss the possibility of an alliance. And there was reason to call for Highever and Amaranthine, but not Recliffe that's a few days away?

Loghain fubar''ed it by letting the brat have any say in the matter. Duncan was even worse.

[Addai]

I think you're envisioning a longer span of time than they had. IMO at least.

There was reason to call for reinforcements, but they thought they had enough. Armies don't move on a dime and it costs money to mount a large campaign. If you don't need them, you put them on standby, just as Cailan had done with the Orlesians.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't think Cailan was envisioning any span of time at all.

This kind of thinking is only feasible when you aren't relying on a "make or break" battle. And especially when you are not fighting on the frontlines. Had Loghain not retreated, Ferelden would have probably been broken utterly.

Cailan was thinking in terms of one glorious battle where he would break the blight. In other words he wasn't thinking at all and risked everything.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's actually very rare. Most commanders were present in the frontlines to inspire their troops, but they seldom actually fought. Furthermore, most of them only entered the fray at a key critical moment. See Caesar in Alesia. They spent most of their time not on the frontlines actually issuing orders because battles are more than playing with swords and gold armor.

The image of a warrior commander is most of the time the result of propaganda.

Caesar was commanding a disciplined army of professional soldiers, and so could influence the outcome by issuing commands from behind the lines.  Yet he still found it worthwhile to enter the fray on occasion.  As did many very able generals from Alexander to the Black Prince.

The place where a general can most effectively command depends on the discipline of his soldiers and the effectiveness of his communications and command and control systems.  For a modern army, the general should be a long way away from the battle.  A Napoleonic general needed to be at the battle - and at considerable risk - but still at some remove from the heat of the action.  For an ill disciplined medieval army such as Cailan commanded, once your forces are committed the ability to influence the batle from the rear is pretty much nil, so being at or near the front lines is quite reasonable - particularly if you've got the best warriors in Ferelden as your bodyguard.

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Except they've been fighting the darkspawn for weeks, if not months, before Ostagar. Why didn't he call on Recliffe for reinforcements from the very beginning or weeks before Ostagar? Why didn't he send emissaries to Orzammar?

Probably because he thinks having the mighty Grey Wardens by his side is enough.  

I'm sure someone who knows much more than I do about DA lore will come along and explain this to me, but don't the game events essentially explain why neither of those things would have worked?  Orzammar was at a complete stand still.  Loghain had already poisoned Eamon by Ostagar and Isolde had sent out the majority of the knights on an errand so... how could that have changed anything?  In fact, one could argue that the Orlesians are the only ones actually in position to offer aid should Cailan so choose, and I'm pretty sure everyone is against that idea.  

In conclusion, of course I have sympathy for Cailan.  It isn't easy living in the shadow of a man who is not just a national hero, but a near mythical legend.  He was raised in a soft, comfortable life with every luxury afforded him and every opportunity for his position to lead to snobbery and yet he manages to have a good heart.  He has practically no reason to give a **** about anyone but himself and yet he does, and I find that kind of admirable.

It is unfortunate that a soft upbringing and exaggerated tales of his father turn his introduction to the player into a sort of cavalcade of tragic flaws, but there is something comforting in knowing that he has a measure of humanity. Especially when a certain other character close to him manages to supress his own humanity so magnificently.
  

Furthermore, a defensive location like Ostagar is only useful if the semi-barbarous Fereldens actually understood tactical concepts like shield wall. And sometimes, lands should be given up and sacrificed. Sticking to a defensive position just for the sake of it, is not always the sound and sensible strategy to do.

EDIT: in fact, since they only use longswords, Fereldans fighting in a chokepoint is detrimental. They do not have the equipment or tactical mindset to make use of a defensive location to its fullest potential.

This is a prime example of thinking about something way more than the writers ever did.  It's impossible for me to take any of this as evidence, impressive though it may be, because it's impossible for me to believe that anyone at Bioware actually had any thought about the battle at Ostagar at all beyond what would look awesome cinematically.

I know, I know, if we are going to throw out more complex arguments but allow more obvious ones, we aren't really debating on equal footing.  But if you're expecting the writers to understand the advantages and disadvantages of a chokepoint, and demonstrate historically viable formations, and for them to provide Fereldans with spears to better exploit their natural advantages when spears are unavailable to the player for the rest of the game... it just feels unreasonable.  (I know you didn't say anything about spears, but you could have made that point and you would have been right, not that it would have mattered.)  This isn't that game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...
I'm sure someone who knows much more than I do about DA lore will come along and explain this to me, but don't the game events essentially explain why neither of those things would have worked?  Orzammar was at a complete stand still.  Loghain had already poisoned Eamon by Ostagar and Isolde had sent out the majority of the knights on an errand so... how could that have changed anything?  In fact, one could argue that the Orlesians are the only ones actually in position to offer aid should Cailan so choose, and I'm pretty sure everyone is against that idea. 

He did not know about either event so they shouldn't be part of his "decision-making". And Eamon doesn't have to be alive to mobalise Redcliffe's army. He was fine and well at least a week before Ostagar, since Duncan met him and said so.
Eamon could have been summoned long before he was poisoned and even if he died, the army could still be mobalised without him.

Furthermore, I doubt Cailan knew anything about Orzammar, as Loghain didn't seem to have known what has happened.  And Endrin died after what Bhelen did. I doubt what Bhelen did was a month or weeks before Ostagar. Cailan could have still sent request for aid, as the darkspawn appeared weeks before the battle.  

  

This is a prime example of thinking about something way more than the writers ever did.  It's impossible for me to take any of this as evidence, impressive though it may be, because it's impossible for me to believe that anyone at Bioware actually had any thought about the battle at Ostagar at all beyond what would look awesome cinematically.

Since the post I was responding to is making the argument that being in a defensive position is strategically beneficial, I feel I am well within acceptable paramaters when I am arguing why it isn't based on what we see in the game.

If what I am expected to do is just accept the idea that Ostagar is an awesome defensive position just like that, then I am afraid  I won't do that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 avril 2011 - 05:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Wulfram. Again, difference between *being* at the frontlines and *fighting* at the frontlines. Most commanders that I know of seldom fought except at key critical moments.

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
He did not know about either event so they shouldn't be part of his "decision-making".

I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you on this since I actually do think that it is within Cailan's character to deliberately hold back forces to ensure a more 'glorious' victory.  Considering that for this argument to move forward, I need to either provide evidence that he did know about the events or that he did send word for aid, I concede the point.  Both of those topics sound mind numbingly boring.

If what I am expected to do is just accept the idea that Ostagar is an awesome defensive position just like that, then I am afraid  I won't do that. 

Well, actually that's exactly what I think the writers wanted you to do.  But personally I would have just ignored the comment myself.  The only reason I quoted you is because you are a repeat offender =P

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

Highever had arrived (Fergus is out scouting, recall).  Redcliffe had not even been summoned.

Oh, that's right. I wonder if that happens, regardless of origin, though. I know Fergus survives, regardless of Origin, but do the Cousland forces arrive in Ostagar, regardless?

Redcliffe had been summoned, I thought. Cailan was talking about Eamon's forces taking to long, and Eamon wanting in on the "glory".

[Korva]

Going just by Origins (which is "my canon"; I can't stand buying DLC and only used what came with the Special Edition), I vaguely liked and pitied Cailan -- aside from his sleeping around which made me want to retroactively club him. He's still the richest and most powerful person in Ferelden so it's hard to REALLY pity him compared to, say alienage elves or Lothering fugitives, but there's no doubt that the people in his life have, literally, screwed up royally with him and pretty much failed him completely in every way (except marrying him to Anora, maybe). Just going by how his sons turned out makes me really loathe Maric even though I'm hardly an Alistair fangirl -- it's just the principle that if you breed, you bloody well have to take responsibility for your offspring. Cailan does seem to have a good heart and doesn't mind mingling with his "lessers", which I like in a ruler. Yes he's an airhead, but maybe he saw no reason to distrust Loghain, knew Loghain was infinitely better at tactics and strategy, so since he wasn't the real mind behind the operation he might as well do what he COULD do and boost the morale of the troops.

What is interesting to me is that Loghain could have prevented the whole mess in a legal and forthright manner at the Landsmeet that chose Maric's successor. As I recall, it was pretty much only his support that put Cailan on the throne rather than Papa Cousland. Surely by that time Loghain knew what kind of naive and utterly unprepared man-child desperarely trying to live up to the legend of his absent father Cailan was, and thus not fit to rule the country?

[Addai]

I don't recall anything saying that Loghain's support was the only support Cailan had at the LM. After telling you some people wanted Bryce as king, Dairren kind of waves it off as the nostalgia of a few. It didn't sound like a serious challenge to me. Cailan was Maric's son and heir, that's what got him the throne IMO.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Highever had arrived (Fergus is out scouting, recall).  Redcliffe had not even been summoned.

Oh, that's right. I wonder if that happens, regardless of origin, though. I know Fergus survives, regardless of Origin, but do the Cousland forces arrive in Ostagar, regardless?

Redcliffe had been summoned, I thought. Cailan was talking about Eamon's forces taking to long, and Eamon wanting in on the "glory".

I assume all the origin stories to have happened no matter which you're playing, it's just that in a non-Cousland game, the younger Cous dies in the attack.

Duncan tells Cailan "your uncle sends his greetings, and reminds you that Redcliffe forces could be here within a week" and Cailan responds "Eamon just wants in on the glory."  That sounds to me like Eamon is offering his troops and Cailan is saying they don't need them.

[_Somebody]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think Cailan was envisioning any span of time at all.

This kind of thinking is only feasible when you aren't relying on a "make or break" battle. And especially when you are not fighting on the frontlines. Had Loghain not retreated, Ferelden would have probably been broken utterly.

Cailan was thinking in terms of one glorious battle where he would break the blight. In other words he wasn't thinking at all and risked everything.

You never know though, they could have won.

And didnt Cailan want to originally wait for support from Orlais, which Loghain rejected? 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Somebody wrote...

You never know though, they could have won.

And didnt Cailan want to originally wait for support from Orlais, which Loghain rejected? 

Duncan wanted support from Orlais primarily as far as the Wardens go, but Cailan had already arranged for support forces from Orlais. Four legions of chevalier, if I remember correctly. And yes. Loghain was not happy with the idea.

Duncan tells you when you arrive at Ostagar that Cailan does not want to wait for reinforcements, even though he should.

[Rexiselic]

Personally, I don't think Calian is as dumb as everyone seems to think. As indicated by his intention to marry the Empress as well as what his loyal honor guard soldier said about him before he was killed (both in the return to Ostagar DLC) I infer his bravado to be intentional, and not something he does because he was stupid. He knew full well what he faced, (and okay part of it, but just a part of it, was real youthful enthusiasm), but he was showing a brave face for his men. He was the sort of king who inspired courage and kept up morale.

Moreover, he didn't lose due to bad tactics, he lost because Loghain betrayed him. We have no idea if that part of the Horde (it is unclear if it was or it wasn't the bulk of the Horde because there was no Archdemon) was large enough to overcome all of the forces at Ostagar.

We only know it was able to overcome PART of the forces at Ostagar, i.e excluding Loghain's obviously very large number of men

[Aedan_Cousland]

Persephone wrote...

It isn't just sleeping around. (Every king did that...) It's planning to ditch a loyal woman who isn't even 30 yet because she has supposedly "failed" as a royal brood mare.

That doesn't necessarily make him a bad man, even if it does make him a lousy husband.

Cailan isn't just a husband. He's the King of Ferelden. Failing to produce an heir would have dire consequences for the kingdom. Throughout our own history when medieval or ancient monarchs failed to produce heirs, their deaths often led to civil wars or anarchy, with the most powerful nobles and warlords fighting for the crown. That sort of disorder also presents an oppurtunity for foreign intervention and occupation as well.

So unlike with the average family, Cailan having a barren wife is a national security issue.

(assuming of course that she was infertile. It may have been Cailan)

On a side note if Anora  is barren that doesn't bode well for Ferelden's future, especially if she's Queen AND married to a Grey Warden. Grey Wardens are rendered nearly infertile by the taint as it is. Likewise I can't imagine a union between Alistair and a female Warden would produce any offspring.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 09 avril 2011 - 02:02 .

[LyndseyCousland]

It isn't just sleeping around. (Every king did that...) It's planning to ditch a loyal woman who isn't even 30 yet because she has supposedly "failed" as a royal brood mare.

He wasn't planning that though, he was severely peeved that his Uncle suggested it.
PLUS. Cailan was a king. He had bigger responsibilities to his country than he did to his wife.


Cailan was a great man, in my eyes. Sticking with Anora even though the frigid cow is probably barren (though this wouldn't help the kingdom), riding into battle even though he knew he'd meet defeat, keeping the moral up, willing to put the past and bad feelings behind to forge an alliance with Orlais, saving Alistair by sending him to the Tower of Ishal (though this could have been a political manouver)...



I would have also boned him into next week. Just sayin'.

Modifié par LyndseyCousland, 08 avril 2011 - 08:35 .

[ShikDiavolo]

Cailan was a pretty cool king but King Henry V is better.