169 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

So really, even on the cultural/social front, Ferelden loses more than it gains.

But this evaluation is pretty much based on the concept that Ferelden model is better because it more closely resembles practices and ideals considered best in our own time, doesn't it?

[tmp7704]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You do realize Celene was going to kill Cailan at first glance right? Well after he gave her a child ( and even if Cailan wasn't going to give her a child since he couldn't then you can bet she was going to get pregnant regardless ).

Then Fereldan would fall under her direct rule as she acted as regeant for the boy.

Why kill an useful fool and give a pretext for conflict to all these nobles itching for one, when you can simply rule while maintaining image of willing cooperation? That'd be plain dumb thing to do, and Celene is no idiot.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

tmp7704 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

So really, even on the cultural/social front, Ferelden loses more than it gains.

But this evaluation is pretty much based on the concept that Ferelden model is better because it more closely resembles practices and ideals considered best in our own time, doesn't it?

An evaluation that any Ferelden would share as well. If you were a free holder, would you want your country to be assimilated by a superpower that denies you have any property or voting rights? If you were a Ferelden noble, would you want a foreign power, in whom the nobility have no political or legal standing, let alone large holdings of land, to come in and take over....especially when they have a penchant for wiping out noble families they deem dangerous?

It has nothing to do with a modern perspective. No body in their right mind willingly gives up their wealth or power to a much larger entity in exchange for less of both, and this has been the case in any age in history.

Both nobles and freeholders, under an Orlesian system, would be signifgantly reduced in wealth and power, and gain nothing in exchange for it. Other than being exploited.

[Costin_Razvan]

Why kill an useful fool and give a pretext for conflict to all these nobles itching for one, when you can simply rule while maintaining image of willing cooperation? That'd be plain dumb thing to do, and Celene is no idiot.

You think someone like Celene would actually marry a fool like Cailan and like that.

You ever read A song of Ice and Fire? There the fool of a king is also murdered by his wife, and she got away with that ( though she was going to get hanged after she stepped on way too many toes, fool of a politician that one girl ).

Secondly, she wouldn't want Cailan to leave any mark on her child.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
I'd imagine the way he sees it is, his and Celene's children get to rule both Ferelden and Orlais. Which is more than having his bloodline reign over Ferelden alone.

Yes, but where will those children be raised? What will the capital be?
Will these children associate themsevles with Ferelden? Or with the sophisticated Orlais?

Here, he is putting his own selfish interest above that of Ferelden.

Maybe it's too much of playing the Crusader Kings speaking through me, but ruling is ultimately much more about expanding influence of your bloodline and long-term expansion than getting attached to some particular tiny bit of territory. Some peasants in your dominion may get upset they're just seen as pawn in the game but then they're just that, peasants.

And it's quite more satisfying to start with single province and control a country worth of subjects in less than three generations 

 
Ferelden's bloodline is much more attached to Ferelden. It's a national symbol. Ferelden displays elements of Proto-Nationalism. Plus, the Therein bloodline is not as important as he would think.

I don't mind expansion at all. But only if you happen to be a strong coutnry capable of doing it.

Ferelden had active and fighting insurgents which could've been contacted and offered support. Resistance seems to have been active for at least 50 years prior to final, succesful rebellion.

Only with Maric (more accurately, Loghain) in the last years. Before that, the insurgents were useless. Most of Ferleden's nobility were with Orlais. Moira's rebellion was weak. She only managed to get Lothering. 

Plus, we don't really know what was happenign within Nevarra at the moment and if they were too pre-occupied with somethign else.

It is a good question. And one that has to be asked given they apparently were not interested enough in it to make effort earlier, when such cooperation could've been just as useful. Given this, it's possible they see their interests differently and all talk about possible alliance remains entirely unsupported by the game itself.

Except like I said, Ferelden was very weak before and isolated, and the rebellion only managed to be succesful in the last years. Before that, most of Ferelden's nobility were with Orlais.

Furthermore, Ferelden should be pro-active in seeking that alliance and show they are capable.

I'd argue if you spend fifty years just to make the enemy fall back to their entrenched positions, and then spend next hundred years throwing armies at them "without even chipping the qunari force" then the military victory doesn't look too likely. So it cannot be really said that "it didn't even take full force to defeat the qunari". At best, their initial advance was stopped and reduced to "only" two countries worth of territory.

The Qunari tried to attack as well and they failed, for instance in their occupation of Kirkwall. In any case, no compromsie of sovereignity was needed.

If the Chantry were able to reach, besiege and massacre the most important city for the Qunari in Rivain, then their military position was obviously weakened.

Now what if such intial ad8vance of the next war started in Ferelden, and the qunari wouldn't pull out this time? Not exactly a prospect for the Ferelden to look forward to. Or for any country which could become such target, for this matter.

And you're telling me Cailan thought of this possibility? There was no indication at all that the Qunari are interested in any of this.  At best, they became  more explicit wwith Kirkwall. Before that, there was no indication of any such threat. And even then, a union with Orlais would not have solved the problem. The Qunari can still show up in Ferelden, take it, and the Orlesians will have to decide whether to defend their own borders or risk sending their fleet to the Waking sea and get annihilated.

I mean yea sure we've discovered habitable planets just recently and it's becoming more and more likely that there is life out there, but no one is rushing to have a united Earth govenrment. It doesn't work that way.

[Bleachrude]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Um, Orlais is EXPLICITLY not an Aging power.

Right now, as per Codex, thanks to Celene and her support of the arts and learning, the Orlesians are undergoing a cultural Enlightenment/Renaissance

(The Codex entry even goes further and points out that there is significant change in the future afoot between the heresies talked about in Val Royeaux university, the only one in Thedas I might add and the more conservative elements of the Chantry)

The aging superpower is the Tevinters if anything...

Yet it lost it's northeastern border to Nevarra in a war recently + it doesn't control the large territories it once did ( Free marchers, Nevarra, Fereldan )

Neither do the Tevinters.

The Orlesians have encountered setbacks before (remember, Orlais' empire at one time even included the Anderfels after the 1st blight). The orlesians constantly expand, contract and then expand again.

This still doesn't change the fact that Orlais is actually the most likely country IMO to have a schism with the Chantry due to undergoing a Renaissance

[tmp7704]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

An evaluation that any Ferelden would share as well. If you were a free holder, would you want your country to be assimilated by a superpower that denies you have any property or voting rights? If you were a Ferelden noble, would you want a foreign power, in whom the nobility have no political or legal standing, let alone large holdings of land, to come in and take over....especially when they have a penchant for wiping out noble families they deem dangerous?

The nobility has no political and legal standing in Orlais? And no land ownership? Since when? If anything, the land is owned exclusively by the aristocracy.

Difference being, in Ferelden you get to be a noble by "vote" of landholders. While in Orlais nobility comes "from the Maker" and you either get born one, or not. Which can actually make it an appealing system to these who are deemed to belong to this class... which can explain why there was actually Fereldan nobles who supported Orlaisian rule.

The free holders wouldn't have the same reasons to appreciate such change, certainly.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

tmp7704 wrote...


The nobility has no political and legal standing in Orlais? And no land ownership? Since when? If anything, the land is owned exclusively by the aristocracy.

Difference being, in Ferelden you get to be a noble by "vote" of landholders. While in Orlais nobility comes "from the Maker" and you either get born one, or not. Which can actually make it an appealing system to these who are deemed to belong to this class... which can explain why there was actually Fereldan nobles who supported Orlaisian rule.

The free holders wouldn't have the same reasons to appreciate such change, certainly.

They get complementary titles. They do not have the same level of power that Ferelden's nobility has. They do not elect the empress, nor do they have the administrative powers that the Bannorn and other nobles have. Orlais' govornment is far more heavily centralized around the imperial court, with nobles simply dancing to the empress' tune to score cool points.

During the occupation, most of the Ferelden nobles who sided with Orlais did so out of self preservation, not because they liked the Orlesian system better. Not supporting Orlais pretty much meant the loss of your lands and titles and the extermination of your entire line, the spoils then given to orlesian nobles to replace the Ferelden ones.

The Orlesians certainly did not view Ferelden nobles as peers or having any sort of "divine right". "Divine right" belonged to Orlesian nobles alone.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, but where will those children be raised? What will the capital be?
Will these children associate themsevles with Ferelden? Or with the sophisticated Orlais?

Here, he is putting his own selfish interest above that of Ferelden.

Why must the association be an "or" thing? It's perfectly possible to love both your parents, it's possible to be attached to more than one country if your parents come from two. And care for all of your subjects.

I don't mind expansion at all. But only if you happen to be a strong coutnry capable of doing it.

Country is just a concept. It has no will of its own and everything that happens to it happens because of will of these at the helm.

And if these at the helm would rather command something a magnitude greater and they can get that, instead of just expanding what little they have then more power to them. Literally. It's like political quantum leap

Only with Maric (more accurately, Loghain) in the last years. Before that, the insurgents were useless. Most of Ferleden's nobility were with Orlais. Moira's rebellion was weak. She only managed to get Lothering.

Then there's even more reason to consider option of strenghtening the weak resistance -- if you can turn weak movement into something that attracts attention of the common enemy, that's less attention they pay to yourself. And a weak resistance doesn't take lot of expenses to multiply in power.

Plus, we don't really know what was happenign within Nevarra at the moment and if they were too pre-occupied with somethign else.

Precisely; hence we don't know if any sort of alliance is actually possible, no matter how good it'd look in theory.

If the Chantry were able to reach, besiege and massacre the most important city for the Qunari in Rivain, then their military position was obviously weakened.

And yet it is explicitly said hundred years worth of these attacks had no actual impact on the qunari.

And you're telling me Cailan thought of this possibility?

I don't know if it's Cailan himself or if it's someone else's concept brought to his attention. Or if it was even considered at all. But it doesn't exactly require a genius to consider such possibility, and realize just how fscked you'd be on your own if such scenario actually happened.

So per your own approach, someone could see it as pretty good source of "dire need" -- in DAO Sten does mention the qunari are about to come in force pretty soon, and he doesn't really want to meet you on the battlefield when it happens. If such next invasion is planned, then all the countries are likely to be at least vaguely aware of that, unless their intelligence agents really suck.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
Why must the association be an "or" thing? It's perfectly possible to love both your parents, it's possible to be attached to more than one country if your parents come from two. And care for all of your subjects.

What would monarchs who want to be taken seriously associate with? A backwater Ferelden or a sophisticated Orlais?

If they are raised in Val-Royeaux, have an Orlesian education, raised in Orlesian luxury and sophistication, who are they more likely to identify with? 

This is not an equitable union for a monarch to have an equitable view in the first place.

And even then, it's not really relevent what the moanrch feels. What matters is the economic, demographic, cultural and military dominace of Orlais.

Country is just a concept. It has no will of its own and everything that happens to it happens because of will of these at the helm.

It isn't. It's an amalgamation of actors all united under one banner sharing a cultural and historic identity. In Ferelden's case, a bottom up one further enforcing its proto-nationalist character.

And if these at the helm would rather command something a magnitude greater and they can get that, instead of just expanding what little they have then more power to them. Literally. It's like political quantum leap

Except Cailan doesn't even command Ferelden in reality nor does he bother to actually rule. So what he is seeking is just a crown. And that's exactly what I mean by him being a vain infantile moron.

Then there's even more reason to consider option of strenghtening the weak resistance -- if you can turn weak movement into something that attracts attention of the common enemy, that's less attention they pay to yourself. And a weak resistance doesn't take lot of expenses to multiply in power.

Or it would be a waste of investment and money as they are too occupied conquering the Blasted hills.

Precisely; hence we don't know if any sort of alliance is actually possible, no matter how good it'd look in theory.

It becomes more possible when Ferelden stays clear of Orlais and becomes a competent actor.

And yet it is explicitly said hundred years worth of these attacks had no actual impact on the qunari.

No, it said only the Third Exlated March didn't have an impact on the qunari military. The fact that their major stronghold in Rivain was captured reveals military weakness. 

I don't know if it's Cailan himself or if it's someone else's concept brought to his attention. Or if it was even considered at all. But it doesn't exactly require a genius to consider such possibility, and realize just how fscked you'd be on your own if such scenario actually happened.

Military alliances can, and were, estalbished without needing a merger.
The Tevinter imperium kept facing the qunari on their own, no one knows the Qunari are having a major military build up and that's if we want to consider what Fenris is sayign as true.

So per your own approach, someone could see it as pretty good source of "dire need" -- in DAO Sten does mention the qunari are about to come in force pretty soon, and he doesn't really want to meet you on the battlefield when it happens. If such next invasion is planned, then all the countries are likely to be at least vaguely aware of that, unless their intelligence agents really suck.

Except Cailan never met Sten and I doubt the Qunari send people everywhere to Thedas waving a flag and telling everyone they are going to invade soon.

And even then, the need is not dire nor certain. A military alliance would be needed and I would not oppose rapprochement with Orlais. It does not require a surrendering of independence, especially when the threat is not even certain as for centuries, the Qunari were strugglign with the Tevinter Imperium.

You're giving Cailan way too much credit. It's far more likely that he just wanted to be more glorious than he already thinks he is. Whether Celene was thinking all this is another matter. 

[tmp7704]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

They get complementary titles. They do not have the same level of power that Ferelden's nobility has. They do not elect the empress, nor do they have the administrative powers that the Bannorn and other nobles have.

It's simply the system is built in opposite direction -- in Ferelden you have the free holders who choose the nobles who choose the king. In Orlais you have the emperor who grants titles to the nobles who hold land with the peasants tied to it. A basic democracy vs the feudal model.

The Orlaisian titles are unified (a failed attempt to reign in the Grand Game) but they are as effective as the Fereldan titles -- the difference is in who can take i t from you and whether you lose your power all at once or in discrete chunks 

The Orlesians certainly did not view Ferelden nobles as peers or having any sort of "divine right". "Divine right" belonged to Orlesian nobles alone.

I don't think that's logical presumption to make -- since the land can be only held by the aristocracy and one can only be considered a noble based on the "divine right" then you can't have foreigners hold the land without breaking one of these rules. And since the "foreigners" did hold the land then they must be viewed as entitled to that.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What would monarchs who want to be taken seriously associate with? A backwater Ferelden or a sophisticated Orlais?

If they are raised in Val-Royeaux, have an Orlesian education, raised in Orlesian luxury and sophistication, who are they more likely to identify with?

It depends; you know how it's common for the children to rebel and do the exact opposite of what they're told and/or what they see as values endorsed by their parents? See the Viscount's son as example of precisely this reaction.

Raise them in Val-Royeaux, give them Orlesian education and luxury and they may just as well wind up idolizing Ferelden, both out of spite if they dislike you, and due to lack of actual experience how the wet dogs really smell.

As for monarch who wants to be taken seriously... it's more valuable to be perceived as ruler of two countries rather than just one. And it's valuable to be perceived as enlightened ruler. So a sensible monarch would associate with both. And maybe try to bring some culture to the backwater, if they can help it.

And even then, it's not really relevent what the moanrch feels. What matters is the economic, demographic, cultural and military dominace of Orlais.

But you were showing just couple posts earlier how Ferelden is a true economic powerhouse in the making. Why wouldn't the monarch care to develop the part of their country with such potential?

It isn't. It's an amalgamation of actors all united under one banner sharing a cultural and historic identity.

A blend of concepts, then. That's still just concepts. If the Fereldans one day collectively decide they're actually descendants of a Proto-Werewolf and form a Furrynation across entire Thedas with rest of their feral brethren, then Ferelden as you know it ceases to exist. And the borders of the concept are moved in blink of an eye.

An absurd example of course, but only slightly more than the idea of a country -- cultural and historic identity are after all lines drawn arbitrarily in the sand.

Except Cailan doesn't even command Ferelden in reality nor does he bother to actually rule. So what he is seeking is just a crown. And that's exactly what I mean by him being a vain infantile moron.

I think it's more of a case Cailan gets strongarmed by both his present wife and her father into running the country they both see fit. And he doesn't really appreciate it. Not that he's going to get more say in the new union (although you never know, Celeste may let him run the Ferelden just to keep both him and Fereldan nobles out of her hair) but at least he gets a shinier crown. And hopefully a father in law who has enough fashion sense to take care of his raccoon eyes.

Or it would be a waste of investment and money as they are too occupied conquering the Blasted hills.

That's always a risk. But when the resistance is small then it doesn't take much to significantly increase its strength (relatively) So, it's fairly cheap compared to expense of maintaining and strenghtening the only front you have going, within your own borders.

Or to put it differently -- a banner of mercenaries is drop in the ocean if you just add them to your main army. But drop these mercenaries in middle of Ferelden and have them pillage and burn as much as they like and yell how they're a revolution, and it just may make your opponent think they're about to have another war at their hands, and they better take precautions.

No, it said only the Third Exlated March didn't have an impact on the qunari military. The fact that their major stronghold in Rivain was captured reveals military weakness.

There's some retcons going here -- originally the second march was supposed to end in total disaster that allowed the qunari to conquer Antiva, and the third pushed qunari back to just one city. Which completely conflicts with this idea the third march had no impact. Or that the qunari pulled back to "entrenched positions in Rivain and Antiva" to begin with.

I'd guess the new version goes like: the first march is mentioned as "fifty years that it took to push the qunari back" (to their entrenched positions). The second march supposedly still ended in a disaster. The Third March is referred as the hundred years of fighting which didn't even chip the qunari. Or maybe the second march was part of these hundred years (and as such still didn't do a thing)

I don't think capturing a stronghold really indicates this much if it's changed to just that -- not when it is said the actions overall had no impact. It's not like strongholds don't change hands more than once during a war., after all. Especially one that goes for a century.

Military alliances can, and were, estalbished without needing a merger.

They can and they were. And the members of alliances were often left to fend for themselves when push came to shove. As such it's not unreasonable to see stronger ties. As you said yourself, such unions can happen in dire need. This could've been viewed as a need dire enough.

The Tevinter imperium kept facing the qunari on their own, no one knows the Qunari are having a major military build up and that's if we want to consider what Fenris is sayign as true.

I didn't pick up Fenris so don't know what he says. But how do you know that no one knows about the qunari buildup?

Except Cailan never met Sten and I doubt the Qunari send people everywhere to Thedas waving a flag and telling everyone they are going to invade soon.

I don't expect the qunari to go around and wave flags. But i do expect the spies to keep eye on the qunari. And i do expect some Tal-Vashoth to tell such things after they decide the Qun sucks and defect. A large military buildup isn't something that can be kept under wraps. 

Modifié par tmp7704, 27 avril 2011 - 10:02 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
Raise them in Val-Royeaux, give them Orlesian education and luxury and they may just as well wind up idolizing Ferelden, both out of spite if they dislike you, and due to lack of actual experience how the wet dogs really smell.

All suppositions that no one would use to found a foreign policy. Far more likely is that Celene would make sure her children are more Orlesian than Ferelden.

As for monarch who wants to be taken seriously... it's more valuable to be perceived as ruler of two countries rather than just one. And it's valuable to be perceived as enlightened ruler. So a sensible monarch would associate with both. And maybe try to bring some culture to the backwater, if they can help it.

An enlightened ruler who is spreading Orlesian culture, of course.
Now why can't Cailan be a real enlightened ruler and build a unviersity in Ferelden and try to autonomously bring it culture instead?

But you were showing just couple posts earlier how Ferelden is a true economic powerhouse in the making. Why wouldn't the monarch care to develop the part of their country with such potential?

In the making if left to its own devices.
Why? Because of Orlesian competition not wanting Ferelden to develop more than it has to. Because of exploitative economics where whatever profits Ferelden musters is sent to Val Royeaux....etc etc.

All of this, you are basing on what the Orlesians would do. They might do this, or they might not.
Which is precisely why such a union is to be avoided, because Ferelden does not possess the means to deter the Orlesians from doing something against its own interests. No one builds a foreign policy on the supposition that a country much more powerful than you is going to do exactly everything you want it to do, even if it would benefit from doing otherwise. Ferelden's political system is currently weak and divisive and would not provide enough counter-balance to make sure the Orlesians don't do all of this.

An absurd example of course, but only slightly more than the idea of a country -- cultural and historic identity are after all lines drawn arbitrarily in the sand.

They are not, they are processes that take time to develop, which then give birth to the concept and not the other way around. But this is besidees the point.

I think it's more of a case Cailan gets strongarmed by both his present wife and her father into running the country they both see fit. And he doesn't really appreciate it. Not that he's going to get more say in the new union (although you never know, Celeste may let him run the Ferelden just to keep both him and Fereldan nobles out of her hair) but at least he gets a shinier crown. And hopefully a father in law who has enough fashion sense to take care of his raccoon eyes.

And how does that make him any less of an idiot and a child?
If he can't handle Anora, he is not qualified to enter such an agreement.

That's always a risk. But when the resistance is small then it doesn't take much to significantly increase its strength (relatively) So, it's fairly cheap compared to expense of maintaining and strenghtening the only front you have going, within your own borders.

What's the point of increasing its strength a little if it's still going to be very weak unless you invest a lot in it? The insurgency was absolutely pathetic without Loghain. And by the battle of the West Hill, it seemed defeat was almost inevitable. Now did the Nevarrans assist Fereldens after the battle of the River Dane? I don't know, maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

Even if they didn't, it does not remove the possibility of an alliance with Nevarra if Ferelden requests it and provides arguments as to why it's useful and shows itself capable of being useful.

I don't think capturing a stronghold really indicates this much if it's changed to just that -- not when it is said the actions overall had no impact. It's not like strongholds don't change hands more than once during a war., after all. Especially one that goes for a century.

The Stronghold is on the shore of Rivain. If the Chantry managed to get that far, it means the Qunari were pushed back to the shores of Thedas.

It had no impact on the army because there was no fighting. That doesn't mean it didn't have an impact on a strategic level. The Qunari were pushed back and their attempts to strike out, for instance in Kirkwall, failed.

They can and they were. And the members of alliances were often left to fend for themselves when push came to shove. As such it's not unreasonable to see stronger ties. As you said yourself, such unions can happen in dire need. This could've been viewed as a need dire enough.

Even with unions, some will be abandonned when push comes to shove. It does not change much.

Will Orlais really risk sending its navy to the Waking Sea, riskign annihilation by the Qunari navy, just to save Ferelden? If it does, it's probably for strategic reasons that are there with or without merger.

And I said in dire need if those countries also happen to have little to no potential. Ferelden has that potential to be an independent and efficient actor.

I didn't pick up Fenris so don't know what he says. But how do you know that no one knows about the qunari buildup?

If they did, why don't they help the Tevinter Imperium or preeempt?

And even if they did. The Qunari were defeated in the past and they can be again, unless of course a mage revolution happens but that was not even in play in Cailan's time. 

I don't expect the qunari to go around and wave flags. But i do expect the spies to keep eye on the qunari. And i do expect some Tal-Vashoth to tell such things after they decide the Qun sucks and defect. A large military buildup isn't something that can be kept under wraps. 

We know from Sten that the borders are tightly regulated and that they barely allow traders in. I do not think spies would be able to achieve the task. Non-Qunari spies stand out.

Tal-Vashoth seem more interested in bandtery than giving a damn.

And a military build up can be kept under wraps with a society as closed as the Qunari.

And in any case, even if Cailan somehow found out. Instead of acting like an idiot, maybe he should focus on strengthening Ferelden and improving ties with other nations and not only Orlais. And maybe he shouldn't think strategies are boring. And maybe he shouldn't wish for a blight in his country if he knows there is another threat nearby....etc etc. 

Ferelden has potential on its own and that's being pretty much proven. Ferelden's relative position, sovereignity, independence and some of its cultural norms do not need to be sacrificed for an uncertain threat, especially not by an idiot who lacks any semblance of intelligence or qualifications to make it work to his favor and to the favor of Ferelden, the kingdom he is supposed to represent.

[Addai]

Addai67 wrote...

He was not so different from his dad- strapped to a political marriage he didn't want and trying to bear a legacy that was too big for him. Maric muddled through. If Cailan hadn't died, he might have turned things around and done alright, too.

In my story, the man who raised him, the woman he loved, and his betrothed conspired behind his back and it drove him a little crazy.

(husband)

Honey, please this is like saying that things are ok because the broken clock is right twice a day.


And as far as "strapped" goes if only some historic figures would be so lucky.   It was common to marry just to get the dowry, the political ties etc.  and nothing else guranteed in the looks or peronality department.    In the case of the Ferelden kings at least both of them got beautiful wives who were much more competent than they were and could actually carry them as they came up to speed.    If they felt strapped that is just them not appreciating what they had.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 avril 2011 - 11:15 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I still don't get how he is a charmer. Charm usually comes with at least the semblance of intelligence or sophistication. He may be sympathetic (I'd probably still lose my patience), but I see no charm at all. And I pray that Anora was lying.

(husband)


That's completely wrong knight.    It's pure Social Psychology, see the below link especially the "Six Weapons of Influence"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdini



Cailan is charming for a number of reasons
1) Liking.   He like you and the other people he talks to.   This is flattering in itself but then it also engages


2) "the law of reciprocity" as well.


3) He is depicted as being attractive person.  No matter what your gender, or inclination is, people for some reason always respong better to someone who is seen as more attractive.  (It has an affect even in platonic relationships etc.   Being taller, more handsome etc. unconciously makes people see the person in a more favorable way, as a leader etc.).  This is called "the halo affect".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect



4) Social proof.    The fact that everybody else sees him as charming is quite powerful.   Very difficult to resist.   Especially if not concious of it, and even when you are there is still the affects of peer pressure etc.


5) Authority.   To people who don't know him he is King and a Therin.   (exposure to him and his foolishness would erode this)


6) Scarcity.   He's one of a kind.   For a commoner that would be a big deal, but not so much for the big time NPC and player character.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 avril 2011 - 11:36 .

[Addai]

Addai67 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

He was not so different from his dad- strapped to a political marriage he didn't want and trying to bear a legacy that was too big for him. Maric muddled through. If Cailan hadn't died, he might have turned things around and done alright, too.

In my story, the man who raised him, the woman he loved, and his betrothed conspired behind his back and it drove him a little crazy.

(husband)

Honey, please this is like saying that things are ok because the broken clock is right twice a day.


And as far as "strapped" goes if only some historic figures would be so lucky.   It was common to marry just to get the dowry, the political ties etc.  and nothing else guranteed in the looks or peronality department.    In the case of the Ferelden kings at least both of them got beautiful wives who were much more competent than they were and could actually carry them as they came up to speed.    If they felt strapped that is just them not appreciating what they had.

Honey, please don't argue on the internet. lol

I'm discussing character and motivations, not if it's "okay."  I never said it's okay.  And just because it happened to other people didn't mean that the people in those marriages didn't feel trapped by them, particularly the Theirins who are prone to idealism in love.  It was also commonplace for people, especially men, to cheat.  That doesn't make it okay, but if we're talking about what's common during the times, then Cailan's (alleged) infidelities don't even bear mentioning.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 avril 2011 - 10:27 .

[Maria13]

Marital discord on BSN ALERT!

I'm so grateful my hubby is not interested in DA, lol!

Now kiss and make up!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
1) Liking.   He like you and the other people he talks to.   This is flattering in itself but then it also engages

Or it's just his infatuation with the Wardens, and not liking you personally since he doesn't even know you.
Unless the Warden is actually that naive and didn't understand that Cailan practically worships the Wardens.

2) "the law of reciprocity" as well.

Since I felt no need or impulse to reciprocate anything towards him, then there is no law.

3) He is depicted as being attractive person.  No matter what your gender, or inclination is, people for some reason always respong better to someone who is seen as more attractive.  (It has an affect even in platonic relationships etc.   Being taller, more handsome etc. unconciously makes people see the person in a more favorable way, as a leader etc.).  This is called "the halo affect".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect

I'll concede that he's not hard on the eye, though his vain gold armor is.

4) Social proof.    The fact that everybody else sees him as charming is quite powerful.   Very difficult to resist.   Especially if not concious of it, and even when you are there is still the affects of peer pressure etc.

Except 5/6 Wardens don't even know him or Ferelden to feel that peer pressure, and the Cousland knows that actually almost everyone does not hold Cailan in high esteem.

"Anora is held in much higher esteem than her husband by the people of Ferelden, nobility and commoners alike, and commands the respect even of foreign nations, having once inspired Empress Celene of Orlais to declare, "Anora of Ferelden is a solitary rose among brambles."

5) Authority.   To people who don't know him he is King and a Therin.   (exposure to him and his foolishness would erode this)

Since his foolishness is shown immediately, then the charm effect is also eroded immediately.

Unless one thinks these:

"Strategies are boring!"
"Glorious war yoopie!"
"Awww but I want a blight! Archdemon show up!"

Are something a king should say.

6) Scarcity.   He's one of a kind.   For a commoner that would be a big deal, but not so much for the big time NPC and player character.

....Yea and Howe is one of a kind too.
Scratch that, Sandal is one of a kind.


Anyone who focuses on actual content and not superficialities, like looks, would find it hard to say that Cailan is charming. 

[Addai]

Maria13 wrote...

Marital discord on BSN ALERT!

I'm so grateful my hubby is not interested in DA, lol!

Now kiss and make up!

Heh.  This is what DRM has reduced us to.