666 réponses à ce sujet

[Jtrdi]

Schyzm wrote...
because obviously doom was a not a pc game....you're making baby jesus cry:(

Your reading comprehansion failed you when you "kinda" read my post. Practice makes perfect, try again.

[Schyzm]

Kelston wrote...

Unbroken Lineage wrote...
My PC is a crowd-control/debuff mage only.  I don't really do any damage unless I plink with my sword when someone low is nearby.  And I have Wynn fully specced for healing.  And I have Shale tanking and Zev shredding.

That's your fault for not playing the class to it's utmost. Intentionally handicapping your own party has no bearing on whether or not the class is imbalanced.

If I said I tried to run a tank (that is not Shale) that didn't wear armor or weapons and insisted warriors were ridiculously weak, you'd laugh at the argument. Same goes for your choice of not using mage damage spells. That's not our fault, that's your fault and it doesn't change whether or not mages are powerful.

It is your own choice to not take damage spells with Wynne (which is a lie since she starts with damage spells). There is no game mechanic that says you can't be a healer that happens to be a primalist too.

So grats, straw man fallacy. Can you argue without relying on a logical fallacy?

Jtrdi wrote...
If I were fighter fan, I would be happy - I
would definitely try to beat the game without a single mage - just to
prove it's possible. And I would enjoy it.

You have real RPG players and wannabe RPG players.... whole world of difference...

Your argument is laughably bad. Apparently people are "fake" RPG players because they want a balanced RPG system? Are you really that dumb? You don't get a special prize that says "real RPG player" if you intentionally play the weakest class in an unbalanced ruleset. You get a prize that says "corporate toolbag" or "moronic fanboy".

why people come into threads that discuss balance when they purposefully play like an idiot is beyond me.  

"hey guys running on legs is so not better or faster than running on your hands, I know I run on legs all the time and I never outpace hand runners."

[Unbroken Lineage]

Kelston wrote...

Unbroken Lineage wrote...
My PC is a crowd-control/debuff mage only.  I don't really do any damage unless I plink with my sword when someone low is nearby.  And I have Wynn fully specced for healing.  And I have Shale tanking and Zev shredding.

That's your fault for not playing the class to it's utmost. Intentionally handicapping your own party has no bearing on whether or not the class is imbalanced.

If I said I tried to run a tank (that is not Shale) that didn't wear armor or weapons and insisted warriors were ridiculously weak, you'd laugh at the argument. Same goes for your choice of not using mage damage spells. That's not our fault, that's your fault and it doesn't change whether or not mages are powerful.

It is your own choice to not take damage spells with Wynne (which is a lie since she starts with damage spells). There is no game mechanic that says you can't be a healer that happens to be a primalist too.

So grats, straw man fallacy. Can you argue without relying on a logical fallacy?

Um, what?  A few pages ago you accused me to running a 3-Mage party, and more broadly of some kind of Mage-bias because I run a Mage PC, so I clarified for you how I roll.  Now you tell me I'm doing it wrong because I'm not taking advantage of the very brokenness that makes you so upset?  Really?

I'm fully aware of the zomgwtfpwnzone potential of the Mage class in the Arcane Warrior / Blood Mage tankblaster, but I choose to play a different way so as to maintain challenge and enjoyment.  Are you telling me I'm doing it wrong?  Or are you saying you lack the discipline to refrain from exploiting broken builds?  What's going on here?

Yes I'm intentionally handicapping myself.  By design.  It's something people do in games like this.  This is the point I was making earlier about deviating from a balanced party build--you accept the self-imposed challenges and make up for the party's shortcomings in other ways, such as with clever combat/talent synergy.  Granted, I didn't deviate too far, substituting DPS for CC, but you get the point.

I'll play the next run as Rogue/Ranger/Bard and keep Alistair/Templar/Champion, Leliana/Bard/Ranger and Morrigan as both CC and Heal (no damage), no Wynn on Hard.  I saw someone play this team on Nightmare and it looks fun and challenging, as in, rewarding and enjoyable to play.

You shouldn't blame the game designers for preventing you from winning the game with random button mashing, especially since they gave you an Easy Mode in which to do that.  If your preferred party build isn't working in Normal or above, make it work by sprinkling more thinkjuice on it, or give up and try a different party build.  Or switch to Easy.

Maybe party build isn't your problem and it's basic combat mechanics, or combat tactics, or field awareness, or whatever.  These things can be learned.  You can make it work.

I'm just pointing out that the game has options, that I can play on Hard without 3 Mages and still enjoy myself, and the fact that Sir Awesomesauce McButterbottoms can solo Nightmare dragons doesn't ruin my day.  I'm happy for him, because he's enjoying the game.  Steamrolling the game like that isn't my thing, but whatever.

The only ones who are DoingItWrong are the ones who aren't having fun and are blaming the developers for it.

Modifié par Unbroken Lineage, 17 novembre 2009 - 07:21 .

[Killyox the Defender]

brazybear wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Its infuriating just how powerful mages are.

The annoying part is when people say its lore and mages are rare, yet all monster groups have a mage.

I think the main designer of DA:O was a Kensai/Mage Baldur's Gate fanatic.

Hoping some decent Modder will rebalance this.

Hah, after reading most of the replies here, it is pretty funny how everyone says it's lore and they're rare, yet almost all the groups you face will have a mage or two.

Anyways, I'm playing as a Tank with a two-handed sword, ranged rogue, sword+shield warrior, and another rogue...lol, just kidding, of course the last character's a primal mage on normal and there have been some extremely tough battles.  Don't use any automation at all and pretty much plan out every two seconds of the battle manually, even hitting pause right after a pummel shot to manually walk a character forward and do a follow up attack.  I like the challenge but see what people are saying about mages.  But if they change the balance now and nerf that one insanely powerful mage in my party, I'm not sure if I could still win the tougher battles I've had.  

actually 1 in 3 groups has some ind of emissary or mage tbh depending ofc on the zone and like 10-15 other mobs so i would say 1 mage per 30 mobs lets say is relatively rare, also you can EASLY nulify their dmg via lotions and higher phys and mental res

[lazorexplosion]

Still gotta question all these mage imba claims. Arcane warriors, maybe, but regular mages are rather squishy and tend to be killed if they dps too much and draw aggro, especially by archers. My DW warrior just plows into enemies and shreds everything with sweep/whirlwind/bombs and fast powerful attacks, all I need is Wynn and the other two party members could nap most battles, and that's on hard difficulty. Sometimes I do a battle and think I accidentally set the game to normal or something because it seems suprisingly easy compared to when I did it with a spirit healer mage PC. I'm pretty much ready to move up to nightmare with a warrior PC and Wynn/Shale/Leliana, so I really just don't get all this crying from people about how they need 2 or 3 mages in their group just to hack it on normal difficulty.

[Deflagratio]

Mages are supposed to be powerful. The game is designed that if you go in with 4 Melee's you're prolly gonna have to stock about 5000000 of each potion to keep alive. But that said, the mage is designed to augment as well as be a force of devastation on his own. An example is the Haste spell, almost utterly useless for the mage (Unless you are an Arcane Warrior and the only party member alive) however with this spell, Two handed weapons become incredibly destructive. I hear a lot of people have issues with Two handies (For some reason Accuracy sucks, I haven't experienced it personally) but things like Heroic Offense, Miasma, Weakness ect can turn even the most evasive turd into a wedge of cheese. The same issues come back with Enemy Mages, even more than Bosses or Elite Bosses, Mages should take priority target. They are seldom higher than Lieutenant and very squishy. One of the more irritating mage encounters in Denerim on Nightmare was the room with 3 Blood Mages, one yellow, two white. If you storm in one door, it's almost 100% wipeout. They are just designed to be powerful. That said, they have some methods to be circumvented. Alistair, being a Templar is the easiest to make Mage-Immune. Get his Mental Fortress ability, and a Sword with Augment slots With Dweomer(? Mental resistance rune, Grandmaster), and you can make him resist automatically half of all spells. Combine that with the Effort or Juggernaut armor, and you have a bonafied mage killing tin can. No Direct damage, debuff or the like will ever land on him. In the end, it comes to selecting your targets weakness. As a general rule of thumb (Again, I've only played on nightmare, so I can only think these hold true tenfold on lower difficulty) Mages = Use Physical Resistant check abilities, Melee = Use Mental Resistant Check abilities. Example: Mages Rarely, if ever resist the Paralyze spells (Physical check) while Melee's rarely resist the Sleep spell.(?)*I never got too many chances to try the Sleep spell, but Paralyze for sure is my Mage-Killing spell. Not even the Blood-Mage Leader resisted it in 6 casts. And again, for people thinking that a 4/4 mage party would be best, that would be a gamble, with no doubt. if the AI was smart enough to paralyze your mages, and have an archer, there is no way you could complete that battle without several reloads hoping to catch a lucky roll of the dice.

I think we all can agree, if one thing needs to be buffed, it's the PC or Friendly NPC archer class. Why the hell was there no Archery specialization????????????????????????????????????????

Modifié par Deflagratio, 17 novembre 2009 - 10:05 .

[Kelston]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Um, what?  A few pages ago you accused me to running a 3-Mage party, and more broadly of some kind of Mage-bias because I run a Mage PC, so I clarified for you how I roll.  Now you tell me I'm doing it wrong because I'm not taking advantage of the very brokenness that makes you so upset?  Really?

You fail horribly at reading comprehension and it is more than apparent you are wholly lacking in the ability to use complex skills like "logic" and "reasoning".

You chose to handicap yourself and then utilize the very fact that you do as justification for lazy game balancing and then again attempt to use the red herring logical fallacy to buttress your point. It is not the player's responsibility to balance the game with arbitrary self-handicapping. That is the job of the game developer. No amount of repeating yourself and dodging the point will make you correct.

Logic is hard, I know. You'll get it someday.

[kingsims]

i die too much on normal am i doing something wrong is there a newbie guide. I hear the Arcane warrior + blood mage + spirit healer can own anything within seconds any one care to help a noob i want to enjoy the game but im finding it hard on normal i don't want to go on easy.

It Seems my warrior DW and my tank just Don't cut it after going to Red Cliff the game gets hard if anyone has a youtube vid on a tutorial it would be appreciated thats non spoilers thanks.

Modifié par kingsims, 17 novembre 2009 - 10:14 .

[CgSquall]

Really...I'm getting sick of people whining about how "hard" this game is. You can play with a Tank/DPS/Rogue/Mage and be PERFECTLY FINE.

Rogue - Bard - Captivating Song, bam you have the best CC in the game.

Edit: Oh and to clear it up, I'm playing on Hard or Nightmare( Nightmare in my Mage PC, Hard on my Warrior PC)

Why a harder difficulty for my Mage? I found it too easy with Alistair, Leliana, PC, Wynne, Leliana has CC, Wynne heals, PC DPS and Alistair tanks, only time I ever died so far was against a Dragon.

Really, with good tactics, the game is not very hard at all. If you complain about difficulty, you don't know what you're doing when selecting talents or stat boosts, i.e. dexterity helps a tank too, if you aren't hit due to high defense, then you won't take any damage.

Oh, I'm also trying a theory of mine, a high level rogue - duelist tank. Due to the talents that increase defense(duelist) or the rogue talent that gives a 10% miss rate automatically, it's based off of the FFXI theory of Ninja tanking, where you simply don't get hit ever. And in case you DO get hit, instead of boosting up CON, boost up STR to wear heavy/massive armor as well. Only real downside to this so far is that you have to go Dual-wield so you will be flanked.

Modifié par CgSquall, 17 novembre 2009 - 10:46 .

[Killyox the Defender]

finished game on hard/nightmare with 1 mage yay me,





anyways my 2nd walkthrough will be with 100% CC/Debuff mage with blood mage being spec.



and so i gues ill go full mindblast way ull blood mage and a lot in the entropy + maybe ice and earth.





On my 1st walkthrough ive set for wynne that she uses Petrify on mages since it requires physical resist and which they have very very poor.



The key to the game is knowing what to use vs which targets. Ive always sent in my PC rogue sin/duelist with dagger/cun build in stealth to position myself, and when fighting grp of mobs i could do earthquake for mass CC petrify on yellow mages etc and kill them within seconds with my PC.



You can play the game also as 3x Rogue + tank or mage instead of tank and youll also be perfectly fine



Most orange mobs can be stunned aswel and imo its perfectly viable to go 3x rogue or anyother class Like 3x tank + mage

[Killyox the Defender]

kingsims wrote...

i die too much on normal am i doing something wrong is there a newbie guide. I hear the Arcane warrior + blood mage + spirit healer can own anything within seconds any one care to help a noob i want to enjoy the game but im finding it hard on normal i don't want to go on easy.

It Seems my warrior DW and my tank just Don't cut it after going to Red Cliff the game gets hard if anyone has a youtube vid on a tutorial it would be appreciated thats non spoilers thanks.

people are exaggerating

pro tip: think think plan plan and know character's skills so you can tie them up for greater effect.

Also if you find game hard on normal WHY dont you want to go easy? it isnt as easy as it may sound because in few fights youll have hard time on easy too just not as much.

[Killyox the Defender]

CgS, making rogue tank wont work.



On my rogue i had a maximum of 160 defense and with wynne buff 200. Although it was impossible for melee to hit me [got duelist maxed and also that 20% rogue talent] i still had LITTLE hp to withstand 2-3 strong hits and also i had LITTLE TO NO magical resists and thus mage mobs could own me very very quickly UNLESS i used lotions.



High def rgues are great tanks for melee orange mobs who have 5% chance to hit you and with dmg you do you keep aggro on them. Groups will eat you tho unless u combat stealth + use explosives.

[lazorexplosion]

kingsims wrote...

i die too much on normal am i doing something wrong is there a newbie guide. I hear the Arcane warrior + blood mage + spirit healer can own anything within seconds any one care to help a noob i want to enjoy the game but im finding it hard on normal i don't want to go on easy.

It Seems my warrior DW and my tank just Don't cut it after going to Red Cliff the game gets hard if anyone has a youtube vid on a tutorial it would be appreciated thats non spoilers thanks.

Here are my tips:

Get dual weapon finesse and momentum as soon as possible. Use momentum all the time, it's great. If your crit chance is bad, use dual striking, but stop using it if you have a good critical chance because it prevents criticals and uses 50 stamina. Use two weapon sweep and whirlwind to damage multiple enemies, riposte is useful for interupting enemy mages. 

Put points into enough dexterity to get momentum and then start pumping strength to be able to wear the good armor, but keep putting a few more points into dexterity until you have at least 42 strength and 36 dexterity for the best armor and prerequisites. After that, put stat points where you want.

Get a point in poisons skill fairly soon (maybe after combat training 3) and eventually get at least 2 points in poisons (buying a skill book helps). Bombs are great, they can do 75+ damage AOE and you can chuck several in a row because each type has a different cooldown. Poisons are ok too, especially deathroot poison with its chance to stun.

Berserker is a really nice specialization for a dual wielder, extra damage * lots of hits = nice.

Buy grandmaster lighting/frost runes at camp, you can find a nice 2 slot dagger to stick them at the village where you get Shale, you can get these quite early if you save up and it's a nice damage boost.

Flanking helps warriors, you still get and attack and crit chance bonus even though you don't get backstabs, but avoid being flanked yourself!

[Elanareon]

Rebalancing? Ha! Im finding Nightmare too easy now!

[The Hunt is On]

No, this is a single player RPG, not an MMO where everyone has to be equal. Mages in any lore are the most powerful, feared beings in existence, rivaled only by powerful clerics/priests. They manipulate the unknown, a force that our human minds fail to comprehend, something that defies the laws of physics etc. The list goes on. Don't balance a class that was never meant for balance, it just ruins it. If something must be done, then bring the other classes up to their level.

People are too obsessed with nerfing things if their pet class isn't the best. Buff lackluster classes so that they give enough incentive to be played. Come on people, don't get mages nerfhammered.

Modifié par The Hunt is On, 17 novembre 2009 - 01:09 .

[cuiwen]

Kelston wrote...

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

You fail horribly at reading comprehension and it is more than apparent you are wholly lacking in the ability to use complex skills like "logic" and "reasoning".

You chose to handicap yourself and then utilize the very fact that you do as justification for lazy game balancing and then again attempt to use the red herring logical fallacy to buttress your point. It is not the player's responsibility to balance the game with arbitrary self-handicapping. That is the job of the game developer. No amount of repeating yourself and dodging the point will make you correct.

Logic is hard, I know. You'll get it someday.

There's no need for this hostility.

I assume it is your preference to create a most powerful, most effective character. This is your personal preference and not the law which must be obeyed. Read his full post and you will understand his preferences.

Most of this discussion is a strawman, because the main valid argument is personal taste which is always "logically" and which always differs. It is the decision of the developers which taste to satisfy. They are not guilty if they miss yours- they never will please all. They might change it if they think it fitting / a better customer attraction. They might not.

They should beware the trap of trying to please anyone. In the end it might be so faded that it pleases none.
Is a game better which pleases many somewhat or a game which please a smaller percentage a lot? Difficult to say, depends on your goals.

[Elenfaith]

My thoughts on the strength of magi...

1. I'd like to see something in the way for stamina regen...however that would just put them in the same boat as the magi. Just keep chugging away. Now, what would be interesting would be seeing penalties applied for constantly downing lyrium. The game says that lyrium can be very addicting, and seeing that implemented would be a new solution. You can still chug the potions...but add something like was done in "The Witcher" - a small bar that measures how much toxicity there is. I can't imagine drinking raw magical essence to be healthy...perhaps it could even cause an addiction, requiring lyrium in exchange for staving off some health effects.

2. I don't want a mage to be a warrior in cloth armor with a few 'nifty' spells. In Baldur's Gate, throwing a fireball made a nice explosion, threw people in all directions, and was a splendid way to create chaos and destroy formations. Neverwinter Nights, a Chain Lightning spell could rip through an enemy formation, much like Isaac's Greater Missile Storm (utterly devastating in larger battles). Magi are supposed to be powerful - calling down a whirling storm of fire isn't something that is going to be simple, or weak. Freezing dozens of enemies at once isn't going to be weak. As a rule, a mage should be vastly powerful at the higher levels, capable of raining death and destruction so terrible upon enemies that whole armies tremble in fear. I think that DA:O did a fine job with that...mostly.

3. There is no requirement for any sort of 'gain this spell' or 'have that spell ready in case X, Y, or Z happens.' Never used a single ice spell in my first playthrough. Didn't use grease. Used forcefield, naturally, because I thought it was a spell not unlike Otiluke's Resilient Sphere from BG2.

Overall, my only complaint is that lyrium potions should be handled in a new way, or stamina regeneration should be increased to a reasonable level, so that a rogue or warrior can use skills more than once or twice in a battle. Otherwise, you don't need a mage, they are just too darn useful to leave home without, so most people don't.

[Unbroken Lineage]

Kelston wrote...

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Um, what?  A few pages ago you accused me to running a 3-Mage party, and more broadly of some kind of Mage-bias because I run a Mage PC, so I clarified for you how I roll.  Now you tell me I'm doing it wrong because I'm not taking advantage of the very brokenness that makes you so upset?  Really?

You fail horribly at reading comprehension and it is more than apparent you are wholly lacking in the ability to use complex skills like "logic" and "reasoning".

You chose to handicap yourself and then utilize the very fact that you do as justification for lazy game balancing and then again attempt to use the red herring logical fallacy to buttress your point. It is not the player's responsibility to balance the game with arbitrary self-handicapping. That is the job of the game developer. No amount of repeating yourself and dodging the point will make you correct.

Logic is hard, I know. You'll get it someday.

Please define the balance you're looking for by pointing to a party-based fantasy RPG that got it right according to your present demands.

Modifié par Unbroken Lineage, 17 novembre 2009 - 03:25 .

[Elanareon]

Elenfaith wrote...

My thoughts on the strength of magi...

1. I'd like to see something in the way for stamina regen...however that would just put them in the same boat as the magi. Just keep chugging away. Now, what would be interesting would be seeing penalties applied for constantly downing lyrium. The game says that lyrium can be very addicting, and seeing that implemented would be a new solution. You can still chug the potions...but add something like was done in "The Witcher" - a small bar that measures how much toxicity there is. I can't imagine drinking raw magical essence to be healthy...perhaps it could even cause an addiction, requiring lyrium in exchange for staving off some health effects.

Actually they planned on putting the addiction system in-game but removed it. THey thought it would be frustrating given the fights are so potion reliant.

[Broloc]

 No one's forcing you to play a mage. I do agree tho, that the game as a mage isn't that hard and I will do my second play trough as a classic rpg party (tank, melee dps, healer, physical ranged dps).

[Unbroken Lineage]

Elanareon wrote...

Elenfaith wrote...

My thoughts on the strength of magi...

1. I'd like to see something in the way for stamina regen...however that would just put them in the same boat as the magi. Just keep chugging away. Now, what would be interesting would be seeing penalties applied for constantly downing lyrium. The game says that lyrium can be very addicting, and seeing that implemented would be a new solution. You can still chug the potions...but add something like was done in "The Witcher" - a small bar that measures how much toxicity there is. I can't imagine drinking raw magical essence to be healthy...perhaps it could even cause an addiction, requiring lyrium in exchange for staving off some health effects.

Actually they planned on putting the addiction system in-game but removed it. THey thought it would be frustrating given the fights are so potion reliant.

Here is an alternative middle-ground solution: Let auto-attacks that hit increase Stamina.  Call it an adrenaline rush or something.

[SheffSteel]

To sum up: if you are finding the game too easy, swap a mage out of your party - or increase the difficulty level. If you are finding the game too hard, swap a mage into your party - or decrease the difficulty level. The game is easier with more mages in your party.



In a "balanced" RPG, having a greater number of mages in your party should result in a smaller front line of warriors, and a greater chance of enemies breaking through and killing the mages. In DAO, the theoretical added risk is more than offset because there are so many crowd control / tactical spells available to mages. Perhaps the real problem is that you just don't have enough characters in DAO to make a decent front line in the first place.

[Elanareon]

TBH i don't know what's the problem with stamina... You'd just be spamming skills if you have alot of stamina and every fight would be finished almost immediately once you used all your skills at once.

[Loc'n'lol]

Isn't that exactly what mages do ?



also, no you wouldn't, due to cooldowns.



But I guess it makes sense for you to invest points in talents you don't actually use...

[Elanareon]

Don't use? Never had any of those... Weird... What do you want mages to do? Shoot those bolts all day long?