666 réponses à ce sujet

[Hyunsai]

Please stop with "mages in other RPGs"...



We could do BG1, BG2, Icewind Dale without one single mage or cleric... And I'm talking about the true D&D difficulty setting.



Hell, I did all BG2 and extension with a 3 man team, Berserker, Monk, Assassin.





But these games had some kind of "Balance" (arg, I used the evil word), even if they were "Old school" and "Solo" game... Go figure. Other classes got the goods... And nobody talked **** about "lore", I wonder why...



In Dragon Age, we have one single class that can be Tank, Healer, Caster, DPS, AOE CC... Without ANY drawback.



So yes, it's a solo game... But it's the most broken solo game I've ever seen of my life in this aspect. Everybody knew Bioware was kinda weak in game design and balance, but this is their masterpiece, really...



Hopefully some patchs are coming... Or not...

[Loc'n'lol]

Elanareon wrote...

Don't use? Never had any of those... Weird... What do you want mages to do? Shoot those bolts all day long?

Double standard then ? If mage do it it's fine. If non-mages do it, it's spam.

Actually, I don't care what mages do or don't do, I only used Wynne as a healer/support. I want non-mages to be able to use their abilities throughout the entire fight and not just one or two at the beginning. And I don't want to be forced to get super-rare piece of equipment X that provides a large boost to stamina regen just to be able to do that.

[Schyzm]

cuiwen wrote...

Kelston wrote...

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

You fail horribly at reading comprehension and it is more than apparent you are wholly lacking in the ability to use complex skills like "logic" and "reasoning".

You chose to handicap yourself and then utilize the very fact that you do as justification for lazy game balancing and then again attempt to use the red herring logical fallacy to buttress your point. It is not the player's responsibility to balance the game with arbitrary self-handicapping. That is the job of the game developer. No amount of repeating yourself and dodging the point will make you correct.

Logic is hard, I know. You'll get it someday.

There's no need for this hostility.

I assume it is your preference to create a most powerful, most effective character. This is your personal preference and not the law which must be obeyed. Read his full post and you will understand his preferences.

Most of this discussion is a strawman, because the main valid argument is personal taste which is always "logically" and which always differs. It is the decision of the developers which taste to satisfy. They are not guilty if they miss yours- they never will please all. They might change it if they think it fitting / a better customer attraction. They might not.

They should beware the trap of trying to please anyone. In the end it might be so faded that it pleases none.
Is a game better which pleases many somewhat or a game which please a smaller percentage a lot? Difficult to say, depends on your goals.

it is also my preference to play games with good, deep and satisfying combat mechanics.  horrible flaming trainwreck awful combat mechanics ruin the excitement and adventure of the game.  they essentially make smart people cry and make idiots happy.

mages being absurdly overpowered is not "personal taste" it is cold hard reality.

[cuiwen]

Schyzm wrote...

cuiwen wrote...

Kelston wrote...

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

You fail horribly at reading comprehension and it is more than apparent you are wholly lacking in the ability to use complex skills like "logic" and "reasoning".

You chose to handicap yourself and then utilize the very fact that you do as justification for lazy game balancing and then again attempt to use the red herring logical fallacy to buttress your point. It is not the player's responsibility to balance the game with arbitrary self-handicapping. That is the job of the game developer. No amount of repeating yourself and dodging the point will make you correct.

Logic is hard, I know. You'll get it someday.

There's no need for this hostility.

I assume it is your preference to create a most powerful, most effective character. This is your personal preference and not the law which must be obeyed. Read his full post and you will understand his preferences.

Most of this discussion is a strawman, because the main valid argument is personal taste which is always "logically" and which always differs. It is the decision of the developers which taste to satisfy. They are not guilty if they miss yours- they never will please all. They might change it if they think it fitting / a better customer attraction. They might not.

They should beware the trap of trying to please anyone. In the end it might be so faded that it pleases none.
Is a game better which pleases many somewhat or a game which please a smaller percentage a lot? Difficult to say, depends on your goals.

it is also my preference to play games with good, deep and satisfying combat mechanics.  horrible flaming trainwreck awful combat mechanics ruin the excitement and adventure of the game.  they essentially make smart people cry and make idiots happy.

mages being absurdly overpowered is not "personal taste" it is cold hard reality.

Overpowered? With whom do you compete? With yourself?

Again. This is not about fairness or balance but personal taste. This mindset ismostly a mmog effect resulting from artificially created competition (pvp most of all).
There are "old school" views and "new school" views and I couldn't care less. Either way is good as long as classes stay distinctive and unque. And that is *my* personal preference.

[Haexpane]

cuiwen wrote...

 
Overpowered? With whom do you compete? With yourself?

Again. This is not about fairness or balance but personal taste. This mindset ismostly a mmog effect resulting from artificially created competition (pvp most of all).
There are "old school" views and "new school" views and I couldn't care less. Either way is good as long as classes stay distinctive and unque. And that is *my* personal preference.

Wrong again.  Despite the current trend of blaming everything on WoW, RPGS existed long before WoW stole all the gameplay mechanics.

Patches for balance existed YEARS before WoW was even launched.

Stop blaming everything on "WoW n00bs" and stop pretending that "balance doesn't matter single player"  GAMEPLAY BALANCE we are not talking about PVP balance.

ALso notice that 99% of "balance" issues w/ MMOs are PVE NOT PVP.  PVP in RPGs is almost never balanced, it's impossible.

[Schyzm]

Haexpane wrote...

cuiwen wrote...

 
Overpowered? With whom do you compete? With yourself?

Again. This is not about fairness or balance but personal taste. This mindset ismostly a mmog effect resulting from artificially created competition (pvp most of all).
There are "old school" views and "new school" views and I couldn't care less. Either way is good as long as classes stay distinctive and unque. And that is *my* personal preference.

Wrong again.  Despite the current trend of blaming everything on WoW, RPGS existed long before WoW stole all the gameplay mechanics.

Patches for balance existed YEARS before WoW was even launched.

Stop blaming everything on "WoW n00bs" and stop pretending that "balance doesn't matter single player"  GAMEPLAY BALANCE we are not talking about PVP balance.

ALso notice that 99% of "balance" issues w/ MMOs are PVE NOT PVP.  PVP in RPGs is almost never balanced, it's impossible.

I guess the word MMO is such a boogieman for them that explaining to them the existance of balance before MMO's is like heresy.  oh noes balance!  MMO's have balance!  we have to do the opposite of MMO's!

[Unbroken Lineage]

The forum is going to be pretty funny in two weeks when everyone's crying about how overpowered Rogues are.

[felix4200]

There's no need for balance, you can just leave out the mages if they are to good.



In MMO's PvE balance is only important, cause people won't take inferior classes to raids, limiting the endgame for said classes ( the case of all hybrids in vanilla wow). F.ex if one kind of tank was vastly superior, only they would be used in top end raiding ( like warriors in vanilla wow).

[cuiwen]

Ah my bad. I should not have used the WoW analogy as it gives a perfect step stone to ignore the the content of my post completely and go off on a tangent.

• This is not about balance or fairness. It is about a decision for a given set or setting. Which will not please everyone in every detail. The devs might accomodate the personal tastes of those who are displeased or not - depending on their outlook (did it work out as planned?) and customer satisfaction (Would our targetted cb prefer it? Would it create more cb? and so on). I think your chances are (very) high that some of your wishes will see fulfillment in dlcs/mods.
  
• You are not forced into this game or a certain party set-up - unless you specify and detail and rise your needs to such a point, where any setting will require a certain composition of builts/equippment/game decisions. This cannot be possibly avoided in any game.

Have fun with your game. It is single player after all. I try to recreate my (pc)visions within the given settings of any system or game. If there are points that really irk me, then I modify them myself (by imposing rules on my gaming) or by using a mod (if I really fell like it).

Modifié par cuiwen, 17 novembre 2009 - 07:59 .

[Schyzm]

felix4200 wrote...

There's no need for balance, you can just leave out the mages if they are to good.

In MMO's PvE balance is only important, cause people won't take inferior classes to raids, limiting the endgame for said classes ( the case of all hybrids in vanilla wow). F.ex if one kind of tank was vastly superior, only they would be used in top end raiding ( like warriors in vanilla wow).

I'm sorry but that's just ignorant.  single player games have had balance discussions FOR DECADES.  you people really need to stop with this "omg balance is only for MMO's!!!!!!" because its completely baseless in the history of gaming.

[cuiwen]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

The forum is going to be pretty funny in two weeks when everyone's crying about how overpowered Rogues are.

They will shoot me, but that's my thoughts exactly. Now where have I seen that before?

People why is *this* so important?
Whom are you competing with?

I could understand a discussion about improving this and that gameplay feature to satify a broader base. But what's the sense in this "competition drive"? It is your easily modded single player game after all.

[F-C]

on the other forums before the closed:



Dom from bioware stepped in and said that the classes are working as intended based on the lore and world of the game.



They have no intention of making any major class rebalancing to the current game.



If there is something you dont like you are free to use the toolkit to change it.







thats straight from bioware.



so get used to it.

[Schyzm]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

The forum is going to be pretty funny in two weeks when everyone's crying about how overpowered Rogues are.

only someone completely ignorant of the reality of the balance of the game would go and say rogues are overpowered.  I've never personally played a game with balance this awful, so its hard to put into context just how nearly useless warriors and rogues are compared to mages.  

[BlueEyes_Austin]

I dunno, I'm having a blast playing my archery rogue (PC, normal difficulty). I have him partied with Alister, Morrigain as CC, and Wynne as healer.



It's absolutely true that mages have the widest range of roles available...because they have career paths that mimic a combination of the D&D magic user and cleric classes. That's not unbalanced, however, because any INDIVIDUAL mage is going to have to specialize or be pretty darn gimped relative to specialized mages. Wynne's a great example--he strength in the party is due to her focus on all of the healing magics. Sure, she has the ability to do some damage in a pinch through her Earth skills...but clerics in D&D were in a similar position (with spells like Flame Strike). Morrigan is great at crowd control but is far more effective in tandem with my rogue when the controlled creatures can be shattered by archery crits at range and from any point in the battlefield. She gained this value because of specialization and would never be a particularly good healer (and has no ability to take a shot).



Last I checked (Level 11) my rogue was doing 38 percent of party damage, Morrigan was doing 35 percent, Alister 20, and Wynne 7. That strikes me as about right for a party-based RPG.

[Kahryl]

Dom from bioware stepped in and said that the classes are working as intended based on the lore and world of the game.



They have no intention of making any major class rebalancing to the current game.

I saw those posts, and while there's no hope that Bioware will come to its senses and make warrior and rogue characters useful compared to mages, it's still good to have a large topic letting them know how utterly stupid it is for their next game

[CgSquall]

Arguably Rogues ARE "overpowered" if built right.



I say again. Bard - Captivating Song = Best CC in the game.



You could realistically play a 3 Rogue, 1 Warrior party and beat the game so long as you had 2 Bards with Captivating song. The sustained talents work in such a way that you can activate the majority of them(only one or two) with very very very low stamina. I.e. activate Momentum after your stamina is already empty after using activated talents. So if you use Captivating Song until you're empty, have a second bard start using it, then use Momentum, I can't think of a single enemy group that would bust through that plan.



Stop whining. Even warriors are "overpowered" if built right.



The problem is that it isn't as obvious on how to build a rogue or warrior in such a way. A Warrior you just use the insane combination of Berserk, Momentum, Dual Striking, the DLC +attack speed talent, and you have a beast of a warrior taking down an enemy every 2-3 seconds.



Rogue - Bard - Captivating Song = best CC in the game, and can also pwn with Combat Stealth, and the aforementioned Momentum and Dual Striking combined with the Rogue/Assassin/Duelist talents(Mark of Death anyone?)



Mage is just obvious to everyone how to make it "overpowered"



Really, the game is simple and easy so long as you actually read the talents and use combinations correctly. Anyone complaining needs to learn how to combine talents properly, and what enemies to target first, i.e. you don't let the mages/archers in the back live while they're raining down fiery doom on you and you're fighting weak sword/shield hurlocks.

[Kahryl]

Stop whining. Even warriors are "overpowered" if built right.

That's the whole point.



Power is supposed to come after you've tinkered with talents, figured out how they interact, tried them out, gotten decent gear and integrated the character's role with the rest of the party's.



For mages, power comes after you happen to stumble upon one of their 12 ridiculous spells and realize "lol I can just cast this all the time now".

[Shadow_Viper]

IFSW

[F-C]

if you could explain how its possible to make every single player in the game happy at the same time i would love to hear it.



you know you cant, you know its impossible, you know thats why the toolkit is there.





if they change things based on what a few people here think it should be, then those few people will be replaced by a few that hate the changes and whine about them. then they can change it again and those few will be replaced by a few that hate those changes...



its a never-ending cycle.



look at wow, they have been going for 5 years and they still cant balance the game. it changes from patch to patch and its always a new set of whiners on the forums.





you cant win.



thats why the toolkit is there.



you can change it to suit your own needs.





they dont need to spend every month rebalancing the game for the next set of whines.

[Gilead26]

Yeah I did a run with a templar/champion warrior and he was broken as hell I could solo 10 man groups on hard. I had no mage for that run and I had no trouble at all. It just takes a small shift in play style.

[Schyzm]

CgSquall wrote...

Arguably Rogues ARE "overpowered" if built right.

I say again. Bard - Captivating Song = Best CC in the game.

You could realistically play a 3 Rogue, 1 Warrior party and beat the game so long as you had 2 Bards with Captivating song. The sustained talents work in such a way that you can activate the majority of them(only one or two) with very very very low stamina. I.e. activate Momentum after your stamina is already empty after using activated talents. So if you use Captivating Song until you're empty, have a second bard start using it, then use Momentum, I can't think of a single enemy group that would bust through that plan.

Stop whining. Even warriors are "overpowered" if built right.

The problem is that it isn't as obvious on how to build a rogue or warrior in such a way. A Warrior you just use the insane combination of Berserk, Momentum, Dual Striking, the DLC +attack speed talent, and you have a beast of a warrior taking down an enemy every 2-3 seconds.

Rogue - Bard - Captivating Song = best CC in the game, and can also pwn with Combat Stealth, and the aforementioned Momentum and Dual Striking combined with the Rogue/Assassin/Duelist talents(Mark of Death anyone?)

Mage is just obvious to everyone how to make it "overpowered"

Really, the game is simple and easy so long as you actually read the talents and use combinations correctly. Anyone complaining needs to learn how to combine talents properly, and what enemies to target first, i.e. you don't let the mages/archers in the back live while they're raining down fiery doom on you and you're fighting weak sword/shield hurlocks.

you can make better warriors and rogues, but they're still absurdly below mages.  and the best non-mage Ive seen is this min/maxer busted out a huge spreadsheet to make a very high dps rogue.  but that's it, the rogue auto attacked with bunches of passives and got good dps.  If that's the best non-mages can do that's really sad.

[Hurra_asbest]

No, this game doesn't need any rebalancing. The classes are all useful, and most importantly they are different from each other. The result of class balance is usually that all classes have a range of abilities that are basically the same only with varying names and sparkly bits. The classes also fit the setting. I remember some character talking about how the chantry only allowed 7 mages to help in Ostagar, but that they should make a difference even so. Dragon Age is a party-based RPG, so you can bring characters of all classes with you. It's fine as it is.

[qualalombor]

My 2 cents to this discussion (I am only about 20 hours into the game):

I play an archer rogue, and generally he sucks in combat. I spent 3 talents to get "Critical shot", but why would I want to use that skill?? It takes longer to fire, but the damage is only about double the normal damage. I am better off taking 2 normal shots, it costs less stamina, too.

Archery seems to be usefull only in "cheap" tactics, such as pulling only one mob at a time from larger groups (that feels like cheating...).

I am very envious of Morrigan's impressive ranged dps cababilites. I will definitely play a mage next time.

[AshedMan]

You're not playing an MMO. You aren't competing against other people. Why do folks insist the classes need to be balanced with one another? Who gives a rip if a mage's spells are more powerful than the warrior's attack? You can have both in your party! And they both serve their purpose.

[Schyzm]

Hurra_asbest wrote...

No, this game doesn't need any rebalancing. The classes are all useful, and most importantly they are different from each other. The result of class balance is usually that all classes have a range of abilities that are basically the same only with varying names and sparkly bits. The classes also fit the setting. I remember some character talking about how the chantry only allowed 7 mages to help in Ostagar, but that they should make a difference even so. Dragon Age is a party-based RPG, so you can bring characters of all classes with you. It's fine as it is.

"all useful" is a terrible lie.  mages are the only class that actually makes a difference, everyone else is fodder.  It'd be one thing if you could pick between bringing say, 15 warriors or 1 mage.  but that's not how it is, the party is only 4 ppl no matter how many useless warriros and rogues u stuff in it, or how many god mages u stuff in it.  and that creates a very adverse and unpleasant combat environment.