666 réponses à ce sujet

[F-C]

Kahryl wrote...

F-C wrote...
no according to Dom from Bioware the classes are balanced according to the lore and the game world.

You clearly don't play WoW (don't start) or you'd know what a developer means when he responds to a massive and documented complaint thread with "working as intended"

if you played wow you would know what a never-ending cycle trying to balance classes to placate the vocal minority is.

wow has been trying to balance classes to keep people happy for 5 years and they still cant do it.

their method now is to just switch the powerful class from patch to patch. one patch its mages, next patch its paladins, next patch its warlocks, next patch its warriors....

bioware doesnt need to waste their time on that never ending cycle.

that is why they provide you with a toolkit so you can play how you see fit.

[Shadow_Viper]

Schyzm wrote...

AshedMan wrote...

You're not playing an MMO. You aren't competing against other people. Why do folks insist the classes need to be balanced with one another? Who gives a rip if a mage's spells are more powerful than the warrior's attack? You can have both in your party! And they both serve their purpose.

balance existed before mmo's.  stop saying this, you are being completely and totally ignorant.  dnd the father of all rpgs considers balance, releases balance patches and it always has.  balance has always been a consideration, you are only proving your ignorance by stating otherwise.

It depends on which edition of D&D you are talking about.

It seems you have never played 3.5.

[Schyzm]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

cpz01 wrote...

TBH i think the game is quite balanced. its all about pay off's, a mage can deal high dps at the cost of low survivability. Where a warrior can deal moderate dps at not cost to survivability. My first pllay through was on nightmare as as a blood \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ shape shifter mage on night mare, i also tried blood /arcane W but found it to be a little boring for me. by choosing the right spells wynne was a perfect companion to take with me, blood CC + inferno + earthquake is just a blast. The balance was that if any mobs broke through my front line i had to quickly mindblast and shapeshift or turn them onto my puppet, because even with a high CON (25), i could only take a few hits and 9 times out of ten even shape shifted as a swarm unless my tank could get aggro off me i was going down.
Also keep in mind, if we were to take 4 mages in a party the friendly fire and uncontrollable aggro would make the game unplayable, well at least on nightmare

mages have the best defensive abilities.  I could easily slaughter nightmare w/ 4 mages.  the only thing alistair does on nightmare is let me taunt things.  arcane mages tank damage MASSIVELY better than warriors, they just can't taunt.  of course there's also the issue of it being impossible to have a party w/ 4 mages.

So play a mage then, or you could try Learning To Play(L2P) as a Warrior or a Rogue.

Either way, there's no need for the whining.

god your just a walking pile of ignorance.  your trolling has been noted, you think everyone who has an objection to the grossly broken combat mechanics is a whiner.  can you go away now?

[Kahryl]

F-C wrote...

if you played wow you would know what a never-ending cycle trying to balance classes to placate the vocal minority is.

wow has been trying to balance classes to keep people happy for 5 years and they still cant do it.

their method now is to just switch the powerful class from patch to patch. one patch its mages, next patch its paladins, next patch its warlocks, next patch its warriors....

bioware doesnt need to waste their time on that never ending cycle.

that is why they provide you with a toolkit so you can play how you see fit.

Nobody is asking for MMO-type balance and you know it.  If DA:O had anywhere near the balance that WoW classes had when WoW FIRST CAME OUT (and let me tell you as a Druid player, it wasn't pretty) I'd be more than happy.

[Darthain]

regardless of party I've chosen, difficulty has not been an issue, I am breezing through nightmare with Rogue/dog/warrior/mage on my second playthrough (played first on hard to get a feel for the game)

[Shadow_Viper]

F-C wrote...

Kahryl wrote...

F-C wrote...
no according to Dom from Bioware the classes are balanced according to the lore and the game world.

You clearly don't play WoW (don't start) or you'd know what a developer means when he responds to a massive and documented complaint thread with "working as intended"

if you played wow you would know what a never-ending cycle trying to balance classes to placate the vocal minority is.

wow has been trying to balance classes to keep people happy for 5 years and they still cant do it.

their method now is to just switch the powerful class from patch to patch. one patch its mages, next patch its paladins, next patch its warlocks, next patch its warriors....

bioware doesnt need to waste their time on that never ending cycle.

that is why they provide you with a toolkit so you can play how you see fit.

The people whining about "balance" are really no different than the individuals on PVP MMORPG forums, who when getting defeated by a certain class, go running to the game's forums crying nerf, rather than learning to play their own class better.

[F-C]

Kahryl wrote...

Nobody is asking for MMO-type balance and you know it.  If DA:O had anywhere near the balance that WoW classes had when WoW FIRST CAME OUT (and let me tell you as a Druid player, it wasn't pretty) I'd be more than happy.

i just cant help but laugh at this because the original wow class balance was so terrible it was a joke. most classes had 2/3 of their talent trees that were completly useless.

original wow was so broken it was laughable, and you think that would placate everyone who plays the game?

/facepalm

[Schyzm]

Kahryl wrote...

F-C wrote...

if you played wow you would know what a never-ending cycle trying to balance classes to placate the vocal minority is.

wow has been trying to balance classes to keep people happy for 5 years and they still cant do it.

their method now is to just switch the powerful class from patch to patch. one patch its mages, next patch its paladins, next patch its warlocks, next patch its warriors....

bioware doesnt need to waste their time on that never ending cycle.

that is why they provide you with a toolkit so you can play how you see fit.

Nobody is asking for MMO-type balance and you know it.  If DA:O had anywhere near the balance that WoW classes had when WoW FIRST CAME OUT (and let me tell you as a Druid player, it wasn't pretty) I'd be more than happy.

if dragon age's balance was only 3x as bad as the balance of WOW's worst state of balance it would be workable.  this isn't a case of "its a single player game so we didn't fine tune the balance." this is a case of a completely broken combat system where spells even used practically as they're described in the tooltip have been called exploits on this forum.  where warrior and rogue fourth tier abilities are actually inferior to auto attacks.

[Kahryl]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

The people whining about "balance" are really no different than the individuals on PVP MMORPG forums, who when getting defeated by a certain class, go running to the game's forums crying nerf, rather than learning to play their own class better.

Yes. I was defeated by MY OWN MAGES, they're just that powerful

[Shadow_Viper]

Schyzm wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

cpz01 wrote...

TBH i think the game is quite balanced. its all about pay off's, a mage can deal high dps at the cost of low survivability. Where a warrior can deal moderate dps at not cost to survivability. My first pllay through was on nightmare as as a blood \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ shape shifter mage on night mare, i also tried blood /arcane W but found it to be a little boring for me. by choosing the right spells wynne was a perfect companion to take with me, blood CC + inferno + earthquake is just a blast. The balance was that if any mobs broke through my front line i had to quickly mindblast and shapeshift or turn them onto my puppet, because even with a high CON (25), i could only take a few hits and 9 times out of ten even shape shifted as a swarm unless my tank could get aggro off me i was going down.
Also keep in mind, if we were to take 4 mages in a party the friendly fire and uncontrollable aggro would make the game unplayable, well at least on nightmare

mages have the best defensive abilities.  I could easily slaughter nightmare w/ 4 mages.  the only thing alistair does on nightmare is let me taunt things.  arcane mages tank damage MASSIVELY better than warriors, they just can't taunt.  of course there's also the issue of it being impossible to have a party w/ 4 mages.

So play a mage then, or you could try Learning To Play(L2P) as a Warrior or a Rogue.

Either way, there's no need for the whining.

god your just a walking pile of ignorance.  your trolling has been noted, you think everyone who has an objection to the grossly broken combat mechanics is a whiner.  can you go away now?

And here we see a great example of a CDM: The label "troll."  

"Ignorant/ignorance" also seems to be a popular one as well. Others include "Fanboy" and "Invalid"

[Elanareon]

GUYS! I agree that you don't need to rebalance the game. Its a single player game if you find mages OP then limit your mage! You don;t have to use the "trademark" spell always! Hey im using Dog and my only mage is morrigan without CoC, have no group heal yet and.. OH WOW! I GOT juggernaught set with no heals and cc! Yeah it's hard (freaking hard) but i don't complain it was fun! IF you don't find hard battles gratifying use easy. That's what my friend always do. If you find mages overpowered means you were never meant to be a mage and don't use a mage.

[F-C]

these posts are just turning into bitter little men being angry lunatics now.



i doubt anyone will ever get through to them short of finding where they live and pulling them out of their moms basement to smack some reality into them.

[Kahryl]

F-C wrote...

i just cant help but laugh at this because the original wow class balance was so terrible it was a joke. most classes had 2/3 of their talent trees that were completly useless.

original wow was so broken it was laughable, and you think that would placate everyone who plays the game?

/facepalm

They weren't "completely useless" they were just significantly weaker (50%?) than the other specs or classes.

And in terms of a raid, that's considered completely useless.

But I would seriously be happy if a rogue or warrior in this game were 50% as good as a mage.

[F-C]

Kahryl wrote...

They weren't "completely useless" they were just significantly weaker (50%?) than the other specs or classes.

And in terms of a raid, that's considered completely useless.

But I would seriously be happy if a rogue or warrior in this game were 50% as good as a mage.

considering a rogue has solod the game on nightmare mode, im just going to have to say you are just being a bitter little man.

[Shadow_Viper]

Schyzm wrote...

Kahryl wrote...

F-C wrote...

if you played wow you would know what a never-ending cycle trying to balance classes to placate the vocal minority is.

wow has been trying to balance classes to keep people happy for 5 years and they still cant do it.

their method now is to just switch the powerful class from patch to patch. one patch its mages, next patch its paladins, next patch its warlocks, next patch its warriors....

bioware doesnt need to waste their time on that never ending cycle.

that is why they provide you with a toolkit so you can play how you see fit.

Nobody is asking for MMO-type balance and you know it.  If DA:O had anywhere near the balance that WoW classes had when WoW FIRST CAME OUT (and let me tell you as a Druid player, it wasn't pretty) I'd be more than happy.

if dragon age's balance was only 3x as bad as the balance of WOW's worst state of balance it would be workable.  this isn't a case of "its a single player game so we didn't fine tune the balance." this is a case of a completely broken combat system where spells even used practically as they're described in the tooltip have been called exploits on this forum.  where warrior and rogue fourth tier abilities are actually inferior to auto attacks.

Just because you believe something to be "completely broken" doesn't mean it actually is.

[Kahryl]

F-C wrote...

these posts are just turning into bitter little men being angry lunatics now.

i doubt anyone will ever get through to them short of finding where they live and pulling them out of their moms basement to smack some reality into them.

Well personally I'm just frustrated that you are excusing Bioware for bad design.

It used to be considered a game flaw when one class was massively stronger than the others.  Now you have legions of fanboys that will excuse anything.

It's seriously annoying and troublesome to have to constantly restrict what spells I use if I don't want to make the game ridiculously easy.  I should be able to get a challenge with any mage build.

[Schyzm]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

Kahryl wrote...

F-C wrote...

if you played wow you would know what a never-ending cycle trying to balance classes to placate the vocal minority is.

wow has been trying to balance classes to keep people happy for 5 years and they still cant do it.

their method now is to just switch the powerful class from patch to patch. one patch its mages, next patch its paladins, next patch its warlocks, next patch its warriors....

bioware doesnt need to waste their time on that never ending cycle.

that is why they provide you with a toolkit so you can play how you see fit.

Nobody is asking for MMO-type balance and you know it.  If DA:O had anywhere near the balance that WoW classes had when WoW FIRST CAME OUT (and let me tell you as a Druid player, it wasn't pretty) I'd be more than happy.

if dragon age's balance was only 3x as bad as the balance of WOW's worst state of balance it would be workable.  this isn't a case of "its a single player game so we didn't fine tune the balance." this is a case of a completely broken combat system where spells even used practically as they're described in the tooltip have been called exploits on this forum.  where warrior and rogue fourth tier abilities are actually inferior to auto attacks.

Just because you believe something to be "completely broken" doesn't mean it actually is.

yes the class with all the best abilities and unlimited resource pool is obviously inferior the classes whose resources run out after like 4 uses and have abilities so awful they are inferior to the auto attack.

I guess if I said the earth was round you'd say "lol just cause you say earth is round doesn't mean it is!!!!!"  like I said, such aggressive ignorance.

[Shadow_Viper]

Kahryl wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...

The people whining about "balance" are really no different than the individuals on PVP MMORPG forums, who when getting defeated by a certain class, go running to the game's forums crying nerf, rather than learning to play their own class better.

Yes. I was defeated by MY OWN MAGES, they're just that powerful

And you've missed the point.

[F-C]

Kahryl wrote...

Well personally I'm just frustrated that you are excusing Bioware for bad design.

It used to be considered a game flaw when one class was massively stronger than the others.  Now you have legions of fanboys that will excuse anything.

It's seriously annoying and troublesome to have to constantly restrict what spells I use if I don't want to make the game ridiculously easy.  I should be able to get a challenge with any mage build.

if i considered it bad design, but i dont.

just because you dont like something doesnt mean its wrong or broken.

bitter little man.

[surrealitycheck]

My favourite part of this argument is that there is no actual argument against mages being balanced other than "it's not correc to the lore". If you don't care what the balance is, you wouldn't care if it was balanced. Whereas if you only enjoy the game when it's balanced, you are clearly annoyed by the current state.



What makes this so laughable is that it's not just that mages are ridiculously powerful - it's that they have by far the most interesting abilities!



Warriors and rogues share nearly half their abilities - a dual wielding warrior is barely any different to a dual wielding rogue, with the exception of not getting automatic crits from behind. An Archer is barely any different either. Whereas there are a ridiculous number of mage builds, each equally puissant - and all involving more interesting mechanics.



Notice that the only combo mechanics in the game belong to the classes that... ALREADY have the most abilities. It would seem that the impoverished skill bars of my warriors would benefit far more from having the option of doing combo abilities, but there we are.



The ultimate joke is just that if you enjoy particular characters, the game makes it a real ****ing pain to play without mages. I personally find morrigan and wynne annoying as hell, and I loathe playing a mage myself - but an all rogue/warrior party is just jaw-droppingly frustrating.



And just for extra giggles, what's the highest hit anybody has done with entropic death?



I'm sitting on about 1250 on a hurlock alpha. It's fun being ridiculous.

[chizow]

F-C wrote...

chizow wrote...

That's not entirely true, Dom has also stated they are looking at certain aspects in the game that are currently useless as implemented, namely Shapeshifting.  The problem is getting Dom/Georg to swallow his pride, overcome his ego and acknowledge poor design decisions for what they are to make those changes....

last night he directly said they were not going to reduce mages.


in other places he has said they are looking at improving things like with archery and the dex issues and so on, which i have no problem with.

noone is going to really complain if you make an improvement to a class.



just nerfing classes will only create more whiners to replace these whiners though, which is a never ending cycle.

I don't disagree with any of that, rather than nerf mages (and directly increase the end-user's reliance on mages), I'd much rather see other classes buffed and rebalanced to provide enjoyable alternatives. 

But trying to sweep these imbalances under the rug or use crutches like "the devs said things are working as intended according to lore etc." when there's clearly so many issues *NOT* working as intended with numerous other questionable and outright poor design decisions does no one any good.  Also, I'm quite certain either Georg Zoeller or Mike Laidlaw stated at some point on the other forums that gameplay mechanics and balance would not be sacrificed for lore or pseudo-realism concerns.

Telling people the toolset is there for them to change the game as they please is an even less valid crutch given much of what needs to be changed is statically compiled and involves more than simple text or even hex editing. 

If Bioware is going to take such a standoff-ish attitude in ignoring the feedback from their customers and essentially expect the end-user to fix their game, its certainly going to be reason for pause in the future.  The current state of their support is lacking to say the least, 2 "official" patches, with one only fixing the problems introduced with the first but neither introducing substantive changes.  And still no fix for one of the most glaring bugs, the DEX dagger/bow problem. 

All from a game that's been in development for over 5 years and was supposedly complete and ready to go gold on the PC in March?  I'm just not seeing the quality control and solid design fundamentals in this game that we've come to expect from Bioware, and I'm certainly not seeing the same level of support and developer feedback/interaction.

[BlueEyes_Austin]

Schyzm wrote...

AshedMan wrote...

You're not playing an MMO. You aren't competing against other people. Why do folks insist the classes need to be balanced with one another? Who gives a rip if a mage's spells are more powerful than the warrior's attack? You can have both in your party! And they both serve their purpose.

balance existed before mmo's.  stop saying this, you are being completely and totally ignorant.  dnd the father of all rpgs considers balance, releases balance patches and it always has.  balance has always been a consideration, you are only proving your ignorance by stating otherwise.

I don't think you have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

In D&D, old school D&D, such "balance" as there was occured across the lifetime of characters.  For the first levels fighters and clerics were far more powerful than rogues and magic users.  Rogues never caught up, always basically being a support class with some damage capacity.  Over time, magic users would begin to increase in power relative to fighters and clerics.  By, say, tenth level or thereabouts, a mage would be far, far more deadly than any other class.

People who played fighters got the benefit of being the powerful class early.  People who played magic users got the benefit of it later.  Thieves got to sneak around.  The "ending power" of the characters was essentially meaningless.  THIS IS THE BASIC LOGIC OF ALL D&D-BASED CPRGS!

Now think about this for a second.  Sure you can jury rig a mage to act like a warrior in DA...by the time they are level 11 or 12!  But you've got to GET THEM TO that level first.  What WOW has done to pervert people's view of CPRGs so that the "final build" of a toon is now seen as important (because of end-game raiding).  In a CPRG, however, you've already played the vast majority of the game before reaching some of these super-builds.

[Shadow_Viper]

Kahryl wrote...

F-C wrote...

these posts are just turning into bitter little men being angry lunatics now.

i doubt anyone will ever get through to them short of finding where they live and pulling them out of their moms basement to smack some reality into them.

Well personally I'm just frustrated that you are excusing Bioware for bad design.

It used to be considered a game flaw when one class was massively stronger than the others.  Now you have legions of fanboys that will excuse anything.

It's seriously annoying and troublesome to have to constantly restrict what spells I use if I don't want to make the game ridiculously easy.  I should be able to get a challenge with any mage build.

And here we see the CDM "Fanboy" label coming into play that I mentioned eariler.

If you believe the game to be broken, and it's that big of a deal for you, then don't play. Simple as that.

But whether you decide to play or not, neither choice requires running to the forums and crying.

[surrealitycheck]

Level 12 is where you should be maybe after doing 1 out of the 4 treaty quests. Not really that far into the game, let's be honest.

[Kahryl]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

Kahryl wrote...

F-C wrote...

these posts are just turning into bitter little men being angry lunatics now.

i doubt anyone will ever get through to them short of finding where they live and pulling them out of their moms basement to smack some reality into them.

Well personally I'm just frustrated that you are excusing Bioware for bad design.

It used to be considered a game flaw when one class was massively stronger than the others.  Now you have legions of fanboys that will excuse anything.

It's seriously annoying and troublesome to have to constantly restrict what spells I use if I don't want to make the game ridiculously easy.  I should be able to get a challenge with any mage build.

And here we see the CDM "Fanboy" label coming into play that I mentioned eariler.

If you believe the game to be broken, and it's that big of a deal for you, then don't play. Simple as that.

But whether you decide to play or not, neither choice requires running to the forums and crying.

You really don't know the purpose of player feedback?  The larger these topics are pointing out mages are broken (and thank you for contributing to them) the more likely Bioware is to get it thru their skulls that having 2/3 classes inferior is not a good thing.  And maybe their next game will have that fixed. Games don't fall out of the sky you know.