666 réponses à ce sujet

[Malecite00]

Playing 2nd time through on nightmare, have wynne and morrigan plus sten and my dual wielding fighter = a freaking cake walk. Nightmare makes it slightly tougher, but as you said mages are so powerful with their mezzes and debuffs that it hardly makes any difference. The game is FAR FAR too easy as a result and I kind of got bored with my newest char.

[aberdash]

CgSquall wrote...

The problem isn't in the fact that their damage output is different, it's that you can't figure out how to take them down when faced with them.

This is where your argument becomes flawed. Playing with mages makes the game too easy. It has nothing to do with enemy mages.

[Schyzm]

CgSquall wrote...

Oh, weird note, I figured out a pretty interesting build that's basically a "mage killer"

Warrior - Archer - Templar.

If you haven't guessed yet, The tremendous amount of flexibility the game provides is interesting to me. I have something like 12? characters now, each built differently to some extent, trying ridiculous builds because I think it's fun.

Fyi, i abhor playing a mage. I've never found it fun to cast spells from a distance and watch them blow things up.

So really, what's the point in complaining about warriors/rogues not being equal to mages? Realistically, they shouldn't be. The problem isn't in the fact that their damage output is different, it's that you can't figure out how to take them down when faced with them.

See the above combination, have Alistair use a crossbow, shortbow or longbow, bam, mages neutralized very easily. Or create a custom Wariror Archer Templar build specifically for taking out mages. Sure, in combat against normal people you'll end up with a person who is "sub-optimal", but for the actual HARD confrontations(against multiple mages) you'll end up with your favorite person, able to one or two-shot mages, and if they can't kill them that quickly, they can make them useless by draining all the mana.

Really, this argument is annoying and simplistic. It's a SINGLE PLAYER GAME. Play it however you want, so long as you're having fun doing it.

If you're having trouble facing the enemies and you're losing, chances are it isn't your character choice, it's your tactics choice. Just to prove a point, I played through the "Redcliffe stuff" as I'm going to call it, and also did a dragon fight,all on Nightmare as both a PC Warrior, Rogue and Mage, and tried almost every combination of groups possible Dog, Warrior, Warrior, Warrior, i tried 3x Mage, Tank, I tried the "standard"(Tank, Off-Tank, DPS, Healer).

I can not emphasize this sentence enough: I only wiped ONCE.(against the dragon as Dog, Warrior, Warrior, Warrior, AoE was dreadful). Yes, it took a LOT of health potions as dog/war/war/war, but i could still do it. Yes, some situations were easier(personally i found Tank, off-tank, dps, healer to be the easiest by far, requiring the least micromanagement with good tactics setup), but every single setup i tried worked.

So stop blaming you losing on the game not being balanced towards warriors/rogues. The game is fine, your tactics might need reworking, or you may just need to bump down a difficulty. I completely understand when it comes to RPGs, I am very good at tactics, I've been playing MMO's and Rpgs for close to ten years now, if Dragon Age is one of your first tactical rpgs, you may want to play on Easy or Normal, there's nothing to be ashamed of in doing so.

god this post is so full of fail it makes my eyes water.  no1 is complaining about losing, they are complaining about extremely poorly made combat mechanics.  most of the ppl complaining most about the combat mechanics are like me, and just tear through nightmare.  and I can't stress this enough, there is nothing tactical about dragon age, because tactics are pointless.  blow everything up w/ mages, done.  

[Kahryl]

So stop blaming you losing on the game not being balanced towards warriors/rogues. The game is fine, your tactics might need reworking, or you may just need to bump down a difficulty. I completely understand when it comes to RPGs, I am very good at tactics, I've been playing MMO's and Rpgs for close to ten years now, if Dragon Age is one of your first tactical rpgs, you may want to play on Easy or Normal, there's nothing to be ashamed of in doing so.

Have you even read the topic? Nobody is complaining about the game being too hard.

[Unbroken Lineage]

Schyzm wrote...
god this post is so full of fail it makes my eyes water.  no1 is complaining about losing, they are complaining about extremely poorly made combat mechanics.  most of the ppl complaining most about the combat mechanics are like me, and just tear through nightmare.  and I can't stress this enough, there is nothing tactical about dragon age, because tactics are pointless.  blow everything up w/ mages, done.  

Exercise restraint and enjoy the game.  Done.  Remember all of those FFT challenges?  Yeah.

[Unbroken Lineage]

Kahryl wrote...
Have you even read the topic? Nobody is complaining about the game being too hard.

Actually, the OP was talking about how Normal was excessively difficult for them, and refused to switch to Easy.  Among other things.

Modifié par Unbroken Lineage, 18 novembre 2009 - 02:07 .

[Kahryl]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Kahryl wrote...
Have you even read the topic? Nobody is complaining about the game being too hard.

Actually, the OP was talking about how Normal was excessively difficult for them, and refused to switch to Easy.  Among other things.

My bad. It's been so long

But that's not what the discussion (to use the word loosely) is about now.

Aye I remember the FFT challenges.  They were fun.  But I do miss having games that were challenging without having to artificially restrict yourself.

[Shadow_Viper]

aberdash wrote...

"Don't use it" does not justify having an incredibly overpowered class.

If you believe something to be incredibly overpowered, then don't use it. Or use it and have fun being incredibly overpowered.

However, neither choice requiries running to the forums whining.

[guru7892]

Shadow_Viper wrote...
This is after all a tactical RPG, should someone rush into a room with three enemy mages, they'll likely die.

it was after a conversation so I didn't try to rush in, it just happened that way. (to be fair, I played that part about 20 times, and that only happened once)

Shadow_Viper wrote...
Instead of crying nerf, those people should be spending their time playing around with the game and trying different things/tactics.

Normaly I work off of the concept of weakest enemies first, and I try to be as efficiant as possible. I'm not going to run all the way accross the combat area to hunt down a single enemy (at least not when their are weaker enemies closer to me).

the DAO apporach is seems to be incapcitate crowd & kill the mage, incapcitate boss & backstab while kill everyone else. it focuses a lot on crowd control (esp mages and bosses), aoe (on mobs), aggro-tank(mobs), backstabbing (bosses/mages).

Shadow_Viper wrote...
Do you really expect Bioware to hold everyone's hands?

at first? yes, I want biowae to hold my hand through a single battle and train me well enough so I don't need to hold their hand in the second battle.

I can't make you a computer programmer by giving you visual studio 2009 and telling you to initialize and array. Now if I told you how to set up a main function, initalize a variable and how arrays work, you could do it.

I beleive that I should be taught the concepts I need to know to fight the battles as if I'm someone who has not played an rpg before (or is atleast unfamiliar with the concepts of crowd control and the like, especialy when applied to dragon age).

on a side note; I don't think DAO needs to be re-balanced so much as 'redesigned'. while that sounds scary and incredibly expensive, its literaly the inclusion of a good, playable tutorial that would make the game much better. I was kinda hoping that the origins would allow for that, espeicaliy one that went into tactics a little bit more ( how to fight a mage, an archer, rogues, tanks ect) for each class and instead I just got a good back-story.

[Skemte]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

aberdash wrote...

"Don't use it" does not justify having an incredibly overpowered class.

If you believe something to be incredibly overpowered, then don't use it. Or use it and have fun being incredibly overpowered.

However, neither choice requiries running to the forums whining.

  I don't see how the criticisms can be considered whining when alot of people agree on it that their game would be richer if it were balanced out alittle more..  If anything you are whining about these criticisms, so if you don't have anything constructive to say why are you posting in these threads to begin with?

[F-C]

Skemte wrote...

  I don't see how the criticisms can be considered whining when alot of people agree on it that their game would be richer if it were balanced out alittle more..  If anything you are whining about these criticisms, so if you don't have anything constructive to say why are you posting in these threads to begin with?

i think it might have to do with the fact bioware has stated they arnt going to do any major class rebalancing.

they arnt going to reduce mages.

bioware told you to use the toolkit to mod your game if you want something changed.

that people have proven that other classes can be just as good as a mage if made and played properly.



yet they continue to complain and carry on even though the bottom line on the issue has been reached.

it comes off as bitter whining from little people who cant accept how it is.

[Pocketgb]

F-C wrote...

yet they continue to complain and carry on even though the bottom line on the issue has been reached.

it comes off as bitter whining from little people who cant accept how it is.

I don't think you can blame peeps for not wanting an imba game title.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 18 novembre 2009 - 06:36 .

[Schyzm]

Skemte wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...

aberdash wrote...

"Don't use it" does not justify having an incredibly overpowered class.

If you believe something to be incredibly overpowered, then don't use it. Or use it and have fun being incredibly overpowered.

However, neither choice requiries running to the forums whining.

  I don't see how the criticisms can be considered whining when alot of people agree on it that their game would be richer if it were balanced out alittle more..  If anything you are whining about these criticisms, so if you don't have anything constructive to say why are you posting in these threads to begin with?

he's just a hyper troll.  anyone who says anything about the game that displeases him will get trolled.  and eventually told how super awesome his life is and how much a loser they are(I'm serious, he did this).

[LGWu]

Man you guys are rad.

I've been gaming for 30 years.. I play DA-O now at normal and have only had to start again from save 3 times.
whole party gone]
Im up to just finnishing saving the *****queen so she can maybe marry Alister my good mate.

To deconstruct the game and worry the bones of it is pointless.

Its a story.. You know  like your life.

Modifié par LGWu, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:07 .

[egervari]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Kahryl wrote...
Have you even read the topic? Nobody is complaining about the game being too hard.

Actually, the OP was talking about how Normal was excessively difficult for them, and refused to switch to Easy.  Among other things.

I think you'll find my posts, in spirit, have a lot more to do with game balanace than the difficulty (It obviously wasn't too hard since I have beaten it).

The main problem is that the only serious mage to take is morrigan, and to get her buffs to a high level, you have to play in a way that she likes. This takes away some choice from the player.

Wynn is pretty good at what she does, but most of her abilities are taken, and sometimes, I think the path she has taken in the earth and heroic * spells is a waste if you want to do something else with her. You realistically have 4-5 more picks to make, as much the game is played during your mid-teens due to your leveling getting slower. It's crucial to get the "correct" abilities from level 10 to 15 then. 

In any case, because Morrigan and Wynne are your two picks, there is a imbalance when it comes to party choice. You are basically forced to put up with up some limiting factors - play a way that morrigan likes to get all of her buffs, or use wynn and get a semi-okay mage. Healing isn't that strong remember - there's a load of fault with it - so she's not going to be a power house.

The other imbalance is that playing as a mage yourself is by far easier than playing as a warrior or rogue. This is evident even in the early areas of the game, and as you get stronger, the disparity only increases. Now with you and morrigan together, it's pretty hard to lose.

To recap about the other imbalance issues: rogue/warrior stamina and fatigue has major problems. Ideally, we need shorter cooldowns, and everything needs to cost level stamina. There needs to be a way to regen it, or a way to not make it that big of a deal. As it stands, mages can just keep casting spells and have no penalty... but warriors/rogues can't do that.

This essentially makes passives and sustained abilities superior to actual activated abilities.

Also mages can take better advance of higher stats - because they only need to pump 2 of them. Rogues needs to pump almost all of them, which means dex won't be as high as a mages magic score. Increasing willpower does not make much difference in someone's stamina anyway. It gives, at most, 1 more ability during a long fight... while mages have infinite more or less.

The reason all of this has something to do with difficulty is that by using 2+ mages, you are essentially beating the game on higher difficulty settings with less skill and effort. Sure, the game can be beaten with 1 mage - provided you took the right skill picks. It is even harder if you just take wynn... because then you gotta wait a really long time to develop some key abilities that she just doesn't have. Again, this corners the player to pick the "correct" skills as well as the correct character (Morrigan is more or less the "staple" mage to take in every playthrough).

The developers, by and large, have already admitted that they play test the game with 2 or 3 mages in their party. They love them to death. It is by no surprise that the game is tuned to have them in your party. Even the development lead of the game runs the game with 3 mages. Go figure.

This isn't a post about whining and complaining - there is a real problem with the balance. Anyone that doesn't see that just isn't thinking clearly. This is not opinion based. If you can't see that, then your reasoning skills are flawed and some emotional part of you is getting in the way.

[Pocketgb]

LGWu wrote...

Man you guys are rad.

I mean, The game is a story.. not a deconstructionist definition of powers and skills.

You miss the point..

We know, and we love the game for that.

We would just love it more if it had the combat depth to match everything else that's awesome about the game.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:03 .

[LGWu]

egervari



Well said..

And spot on regarding 2 mages.

I use Morrigan.

Wynne is still back at mage tower waiting for invite.

i told her to stay right off.. 2 mages?

No way.



Louis

[LGWu]

We know, and we love the game for that.
We would just love it more if it had the combat depth to match everything else that's awesome about the game.

A solution could be found in simple human pschology,
2 mages cant occupy the same space at the same time.
Einstein said that
ego draconis

As a practitioner of arms.. yes.. Tactical sec by sec control makes you god [the maker]
My PC can die, but it needs 5 to 1 odds to even imagine
But. Only a small percentage of people can or will do this..
money money money

Modifié par LGWu, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:30 .

[Pocketgb]

:/

[LGWu]

Pocketgb wrote...
:/

Ohhh pookie sorry.. Chuffles my doggie complains too.

Modifié par LGWu, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:36 .

[Jinshifu]

Yea, game needs a bit of changing. If the most powerful character is a mage, why wouldn't you roll one? The game is supposed to be a game of choices, so we would expect the same level of utility from any class we decided to roll. But this is not the case.

You can say 'oh, lower the difficulty and play another class', but do you think we can get the same satisfaction out of it?

Here's an analogy that I hope makes sense: No one wants to take special-ed classes. It's embarrassing, and I'm sure we could all ace special-ed classes with flying colors. No, we want to be in honors classes, with our intellectual peers.

But you see, Dragon Age doesn't allow you to be in Honors classes (higher difficulty) UNLESS you roll with mages. Sure you could scrape by as a non-mage on nightmare, but you'd do it 2x faster and more easily as a mage.

[LGWu]

Jinshifu wrote...\\\\
Here's an analogy that I hope makes sense: No one wants to take special-ed classes. It's embarrassing, and I'm sure we could all ace special-ed classes with flying colors. No, we want to be in honors classes, with our intellectual peers.
But you see, Dragon Age doesn't allow you to be in Honors classes (higher difficulty) UNLESS you roll with mages. Sure you could scrape by as a non-mage on nightmare, but you'd do it 2x faster and more easily as a mage.

Well said Jinshifu
I want to be able to beat the **** out of them with my tactical accumen as a crusty dual weilding
dwarf. I too want to be .. a specialising non specialist. The most dangerous of beings.
On hardest.
But alas.. i started on normal cause from hard learnt exp.. Mages always get the teen blondes
Wow i mean man is that politically correct?

Modifié par LGWu, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:53 .

[Mark5477]

So now that I have played all 3 classes to some extent, I can say for certain that anyone complaining about "balance" does not know how to play the warrior and rogue classes properly.



To address some comments:



1 - This is a coop single player RPG. I stand beside my original statement that balancing this game is pointless and a waste of time. Time is better spent making a more challenging expansion.



2 - In every game I have played, I always have about 10x as many health pots as I do lyrium. Anyone who says mana is unlimited due to pots can make the same argument about health.



#2b - If you are using all your potions, you are not using your characters efficiently. You need to look at your strategy unless you are trying to solo the game without a party.



3 - In how many RPG's can a warrior or rogue solo every combat situation without healing? You complain about mages but in this game, mages are the clerics of other games. Are you saying that you shouldnt need a cleric either? Even then, see #2 & #2b above.



To make a long story short, here is all you have to do to build an unstoppable warrior. Get Physical resistance and armor up. This is a problem early in the game, so what I did was go 2 point con and 1 point str so I had enough hps to survive the 1st hour of the game. You should be hunting for resistance runes after that. Once you have a cleric on your team its gg and there is almost nothing that can kill you save for major bosses that can still do 10-20 damage to you every now and then.



Rogue: Stealth = gg. Rogue is not supposed to get hit, but if you absolutely must let him fight, just build him like the warrior above. All resistance and armor.



Mage: DPS/CC mage is great against fodder and in a group but good luck trying to play the game with just mages. Everyone keeps calling them overpowered yet most people still take a tank in their party of 1 variety or another. Gee I wonder why. A dps/cc mage is a glass cannon. Without support he will not be able to take out dragons and other bosses. Funny thing is, warrior and rogues can take them out easily once geared properly. Mages dont have a prayer of taking out some bosses without help especially dps/cc style mages... unless you have tons of lyrium potions but now we are back to point #2 above. A rogue/warrior can solo a boss 10x faster than a mage if we take pots into account.



Mage: AW is the only uber ability mages have because it turns them into tanks. However, the AW is useless until he has shimmering shield and that required level 12 (if memory serves me). Of course the AW has other inherent issues, although he tanks like a champ, his damage output is reduced significantly because he will have almost no mana left for casting. Furthermore, he cant just spam spell freely in blood mode because he has to stay alive. His melee output is good but his hit rate is pathetic compared to melee classes (no dex). He is still very powerful nonetheless and yea you can solo with him easier than with other classes but like I stated above, you can solo with all the classes.

[egervari]

Mark5477 wrote...
So now that I have played all 3 classes to some extent, I can say for certain that anyone complaining about "balance" does not know how to play the warrior and rogue classes properly.
To address some comments:
1 - This is a coop single player RPG. I stand beside my original statement that balancing this game is pointless and a waste of time. Time is better spent making a more challenging expansion.

No, it isn't. The game's choices should be balanced. Game mechanics should be balanced. Single player or multiplayer has nothing to do with game mechanics in principle. You are being coloured by the industry being forced to balance games when they are multiplayer. All game systems should be balanced.

Mark5477 wrote...
2 - In every game I have played, I always have about 10x as many health pots as I do lyrium. Anyone who says mana is unlimited due to pots can make the same argument about health.

The difference is that health pots only give health. Lyrium gives health, crowd control, aoe damage, utility, buffs, debuffs and more. You can also heal more HP with one lyrium potion than you can with a single health potion. Heck, you can heal the whole damn party.

Mark5477 wrote...
#2b - If you are using all your potions, you are not using your characters efficiently. You need to look at your strategy unless you are trying to solo the game without a party.

This might be true for health potions, but using lyrium potions IS PLAYING THE GAME EFFICIENTLY. There are no rewards for not using your lyrium potions. You don't get better loot or gear or story progression. It only makes the game harder by not using it. This not final fantasy where you don't need to use consumables - in DA:O, they are part of the game and you NEED them. 
Also, it is not uncommon to use health pots in the first part of the game, even if you have the heal spell available.

Mark5477 wrote...
3 - In how many RPG's can a warrior or rogue solo every combat situation without healing? You complain about mages but in this game, mages are the clerics of other games. Are you saying that you shouldnt need a cleric either? Even then, see #2 & #2b above.

Honestly, you can get through the game with heal and heal all with the spirit healer, and then have ~20 spells for dps, crowd control, buffs, debuffs, or whatever you desire. The raise dead spell is really not needed if you play right with 2+ mages. 
I don't think you can call these mages "clerics" like in D&D. It's not the same at all. Even though clerics had some offensive magic... it was nothing akin to mages. In this game, healing magic actually kind of sucks anyway, so you are far rewarded by taking other spell chains.

Mark5477 wrote...
To make a long story short, here is all you have to do to build an unstoppable warrior. Get Physical resistance and armor up. This is a problem early in the game, so what I did was go 2 point con and 1 point str so I had enough hps to survive the 1st hour of the game. You should be hunting for resistance runes after that. Once you have a cleric on your team its gg and there is almost nothing that can kill you save for major bosses that can still do 10-20 damage to you every now and then.

Do you really think tanking is the real problem here? What is the tank going to do when 2-4 mages are casting cone of cold and stuns on you? You need mages. Let's not forget that your mages can also be tanks. This is the real problem. You can't have 75% resist everything in this game, so you are going to lug around a whole crap load of gear to help with this? CAN you even get 75+% resist in anything? Doubtful. Mental/physical resist is easier to get up, and it works, but the real balance problem is this: Is it desirable compared to a mage? The answer is no.

Mark5477 wrote...
Rogue: Stealth = gg. Rogue is not supposed to get hit, but if you absolutely must let him fight, just build him like the warrior above. All resistance and armor.

Again, this is pretty bad advise since I think with good gear, the rogue actually survives better than the tanks do in this game if built properly. My rogue actually, believe it or not, had better defense than Alistair. It was kind of laughable. The dps on the rogue, if built properly, has the best melee damage in the entire game. 
Even so, this is all moot against battles with multiple mages. Why even bother when you can just disable everything and nuke everything? Why bother when your spells do everything better?

Mark5477 wrote...
Mage: DPS/CC mage is great against fodder and in a group but good luck trying to play the game with just mages. Everyone keeps calling them overpowered yet most people still take a tank in their party of 1 variety or another. Gee I wonder why. A dps/cc mage is a glass cannon. Without support he will not be able to take out dragons and other bosses. Funny thing is, warrior and rogues can take them out easily once geared properly. Mages dont have a prayer of taking out some bosses without help especially dps/cc style mages... unless you have tons of lyrium potions but now we are back to point #2 above. A rogue/warrior can solo a boss 10x faster than a mage if we take pots into account.

A lot of people go arcane warrior for tanking, and it works. Let's not forget force field tricks and everything else the mages can do. Even in the beginning of the game, when the "glass cannon" problem is supposed to be a problem... the game is still easier. I am playing a mage on nightmare now and it is easier than my rogue was on normal. This is just freaking laughable. I am the same person that several people on this board say, "you suck and you should play on easy". It seems when I use morrigan and my main mage, I don't need to be on "easy" anymore. Doesn't that tell you something? Doesn't that give you any indication that I and the people that agree with me are in fact right? This is not opinion. This is essentially fact. The numbers and logic prove it to be so.
Even on nightmare, I have completed a large portion of the game far faster than my duel-wield dps rogue. Battles that I thought took eons now take minutes.

Mark5477 wrote...
Mage: AW is the only uber ability mages have because it turns them into tanks. However, the AW is useless until he has shimmering shield and that required level 12 (if memory serves me). Of course the AW has other inherent issues, although he tanks like a champ, his damage output is reduced significantly because he will have almost no mana left for casting. Furthermore, he cant just spam spell freely in blood mode because he has to stay alive. His melee output is good but his hit rate is pathetic compared to melee classes (no dex). He is still very powerful nonetheless and yea you can solo with him easier than with other classes but like I stated above, you can solo with all the classes.

Level 12 is pretty easy to get to, and the game doesn't get hard until the scaled enemies produce enemy mages, which is far past level 12. Honestly, up to level 12 is a joke with common dps tackles against the mobs. Most battles end before they begin.

Modifié par egervari, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:42 .

[Shappy1010]

egervari I think by now you have stated your case. And to be honost I don't think this will be fixed or perhaps should be. The issue I have with your complaints is that these account for possibly all Bioware RPG titles and then some. In NWN (and 2 even worse) some classes where 3x more powerfull then others. In BG playing a wizard upped your chances dramatically. It's either very hard to get this right, or you should not worry about it and just play the game you like. Some characters may be tougher, others classes my be weaker, but this is an RPG after all.

Modifié par Shappy1010, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:46 .