666 réponses à ce sujet

[rikkles]

I agree with @egervari. Mages have the ability (say by level 15 on average) to be anything they want. Worse though, they can be better than anything else at anything they want.



Want a high-dps guy? Get a mage.

Want a tank? Get a mage.

Want a AOE blaster? Get a mage

Want a long-range fighter? Get a mage

Want a healer? Get a mage



I'm still playing on Normal with my very powerful level 17 dual-wield rogue. I love her to death, she's exceedingly powerful, defends and spews out dps like there's no tomorrow. But I could take a mage with cone of cold + crushing prison + lyrium + rinse&repeat, and my rogue is Goodbye I really liked you but you know... things change baby.

[Pocketgb]

Shappy1010 wrote...

egervari I think by now you have stated your case. And to be honost I don't think this will be fixed or perhaps should be...

Er. Why not, if I may ask?

[Inarai]

rikkles wrote...

Want a high-dps guy? Get a mage.
Want a tank? Get a mage.
Want a AOE blaster? Get a mage
Want a long-range fighter? Get a mage
Want a healer? Get a mage

1: Certain Warrior builds and especially Striker Rogues, as well - built and played properly, those rogues can out-damage the mages (And are apparantly supposed to do more damage still.)
2: Certain Rogues, good Warriors - remind me, who has the talents to draw enemies?  How about prevent knockdown and stun?  What about preventing flanking?  Straight-up dodging?  Not the mage, to be sure.
3:  Well, yeah, though anyone with grenades can do pretty well, too.  Also, a couple Warrior specializations have good AoE CC.
4: Or an Archer Rogue or Warrior, although bows have bugged damage - same dex bug hitting Striker Rogues.
5: Or take potionmaking and use those.

See?  Other completely viable options.  Though there are a couple of bugs that need to be fixed first.

[banner the bloodguard]

I dunno, maybe its just me, but I use the pooch and shale as off-tank/tank, my char is either rogue/ranger or mage/healer and I don't seem to have much problems, killing Flemeth was longer than I would have liked, the Mage Tower quests were longer than expected, but generally, outside of the crappy drops, I truely enjoy this game, so much so that I'm now playing it on my xbox 360. Yeah I forked over another 60 bucks, wife gave me "the look" but eh, so what, I don't do drugs, don't chase women, don't do bar scenes, I work, come home, do my online college HW, make my woman laugh alot at dinner then hit the deadspawns, life is good. To be honest, if it weren't for my help guide I would have missed tons of cool stuff, so I played the level first, checked the guide for what I missed then repeated the level. Sioux me.

I'd sure like to know how to do a backward flip in the air and shoot enemies as I come down to the ground with my Rogue. That would be handy. Seriously, Please don't "rebalance" the game. I like my chances as a noob. LMFAO in the tower when I used the giant bow to accidently kill myself by standing in front of it as I clicked on it.

[Pocketgb]

Inarai wrote...

1: Certain Warrior builds and especially Striker Rogues, as well - built and played properly, those rogues can out-damage the mages (And are apparantly supposed to do more damage still.)
2: Certain Rogues, good Warriors - remind me, who has the talents to draw enemies?  How about prevent knockdown and stun?  What about preventing flanking?  Straight-up dodging?  Not the mage, to be sure.
3:  Well, yeah, though anyone with grenades can do pretty well, too.  Also, a couple Warrior specializations have good AoE CC.
4: Or an Archer Rogue or Warrior, although bows have bugged damage - same dex bug hitting Striker Rogues.
5: Or take potionmaking and use those.

1. Damage is fun, not so much being in melee range, though (yay for tailswipes)

2: None are terribly needed, since mages have all sorts of CC. You won't need someone to draw fire, prevent knockdowns, or stop stuns when the enemy can't even move.

3: Precisely one of the things that makes a Mage much more invaluable. Of course I don't think this is directly associated with mages and more with the way encounters are set-up: putting more bad guys in a fight doesn't make it any harder, it just puts more red dots in my AoE.

4. We know the options, we're comparing the strength. In terms of long-range this is another area the mage succeeds in.

5. Sadly, potion chugging every five secs is indeed a decent strategy.

Inarai wrote...

See?  Other completely viable options.  Though there are a couple of bugs that need to be fixed first.

'Viable' compared to what? Certainly not a mage?

Modifié par Pocketgb, 18 novembre 2009 - 11:14 .

[surrealitycheck]

What is interesting to me is that nobody has addressed the underlying point.

There is no positive reason why warriors and rogues should be less interesting than mages. Not just less powerful, but less complex and flexible.

This does nothing but reduce choice. I want to hear somebody make a serious argument why adding extra abilities, ability combinations and options to warriors and rogues would make the game worse. Because the only "arguments" that I have seen is:

"If you feel mages are too powerful then don't use them" <--- ie don't use part of the game content because you will enjoy it more without it, the corollary to this being that if it was rebalanced so this wasn't necessary you could enjoy more of the game

"You need to learn to play the other classes better" <--- This is obviously from people who have no idea how to play mages, ironically.

Neither of these are arguments for the status quo. They are thinly veiled expressions of irritation that people are complaining. The irony is, of course, that there is an arbitrary cap on %damage caster gear, otherwise casters would be even sillier.

1: Certain Warrior builds and especially Striker Rogues, as well -
built and played properly, those rogues can out-damage the mages (And
are apparantly supposed to do more damage still.)

No they don't.

Mages can do over 1000 damage in a single hit, and do it repeatedly in a short space of time.

Modifié par surrealitycheck, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:33 .

[Zenthar Aseth]

Inarai wrote...

rikkles wrote...

Want a high-dps guy? Get a mage.
Want a tank? Get a mage.
Want a AOE blaster? Get a mage
Want a long-range fighter? Get a mage
Want a healer? Get a mage

1: Certain Warrior builds and especially Striker Rogues, as well - built and played properly, those rogues can out-damage the mages (And are apparantly supposed to do more damage still.)
2: Certain Rogues, good Warriors - remind me, who has the talents to draw enemies?  How about prevent knockdown and stun?  What about preventing flanking?  Straight-up dodging?  Not the mage, to be sure.
3:  Well, yeah, though anyone with grenades can do pretty well, too.  Also, a couple Warrior specializations have good AoE CC.
4: Or an Archer Rogue or Warrior, although bows have bugged damage - same dex bug hitting Striker Rogues.
5: Or take potionmaking and use those.

See?  Other completely viable options.  Though there are a couple of bugs that need to be fixed first.

Arcane Warrior is the answer to all those questions.. I've soloed High Dragon, Kaxgang and Ser Cauthrien with my Arcane Warrior(LOL dont even mention soloing revenants.. zzz they're just like an ordinary Genlock).. and not even close of being killed. Doing 70% of party's damage too... and I certainly out dps anything with my buffs... and I have more survivability than 5 other parties witohut an Arcane Warrior.. all enemies do 1 damage (except ser Cauthrien did a bit nastier damage but nothing too heavy) and I have 420 health.. my damage in the Character screen is 88(spellweaver, 1 handed sword..).. my armor is 65 and defense 116.. mental and physical resistances are 100.. element resistances 75%.  those are at level 19.. i expect them to rise more before I've finished..

so just that alone would make me better than any other class/combination except PERHAPS another AW...
but oh no, i am AW/BM so I have an instant cast massparalysis that also damages.. and I can take control of the scariest enemy on the field.. and use my blood as mana, of course.. so i can also exploit any and all other cheese as well such as Cone of Cold.. and the buffs i have: arcane shields, combat magic, shimmering shields, rock armor, spell wisp, haste and telekinetic weapons...

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:49 .

[Girl Goblin]

That's part of the problem. You and all the above posters who "don't have a problem" are running 2 mages. So basically in order to have all the tactical options available, you must run 2 or more mages? This is a design problem, especially since there are only 2 mages in the entire game you can pick from.... and loads of useless warriors.

I'm running 1 mage, Alistair, Leliana and the dog.  On normal.  The only problem I've had is that early on I didn't have the ability to make injury kits, and they're not widely available.

I think this game is playable and winnable with any party--but only if the player is willing to spend some time trying out different tactics.  You can't just march in like a bull in a china shop and expect to live through it.

[Unbroken Lineage]

Jinshifu wrote...
Yea, game needs a bit of changing. If the most powerful character is a mage, why wouldn't you roll one? The game is supposed to be a game of choices, so we would expect the same level of utility from any class we decided to roll. But this is not the case.

You can say 'oh, lower the difficulty and play another class', but do you think we can get the same satisfaction out of it?

Here's an analogy that I hope makes sense: No one wants to take special-ed classes. It's embarrassing, and I'm sure we could all ace special-ed classes with flying colors. No, we want to be in honors classes, with our intellectual peers.

But you see, Dragon Age doesn't allow you to be in Honors classes (higher difficulty) UNLESS you roll with mages. Sure you could scrape by as a non-mage on nightmare, but you'd do it 2x faster and more easily as a mage.

Where does this expectation come from?  In what party-based fantasy RPG have you been able to play a mage-less party without expecting it to be more difficult and so on?

[Unbroken Lineage]

egervari wrote...
I am playing a mage on nightmare now and it is easier than my rogue was on normal. This is just freaking laughable. I am the same person that several people on this board say, "you suck and you should play on easy". It seems when I use morrigan and my main mage, I don't need to be on "easy" anymore. Doesn't that tell you something? Doesn't that give you any indication that I and the people that agree with me are in fact right? This is not opinion. This is essentially fact. The numbers and logic prove it to be so.
Even on nightmare, I have completed a large portion of the game far faster than my duel-wield dps rogue. Battles that I thought took eons now take minutes.

You could assemble a party full of Calculators in Final Fantasy Tactics and steamroll every battle.  Does that mean Final Fantasy Tactics was broken?  No.  It just means Calculators (Mages, btw), are powerful.  And if you put more of them together in the same party, you get more power.

[Loc'n'lol]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Where does this expectation come from?  In what party-based fantasy RPG have you been able to play a mage-less party without expecting it to be more difficult and so on?

Hox many times will you say this (and get royally ignored) ?
Define a party-based fantasy RPG. Quote one that isn't made by Bioware or Obsidian.

[Unbroken Lineage]

surrealitycheck wrote...
There is no positive reason why warriors and rogues should be less interesting than mages. Not just less powerful, but less complex and flexible.

This does nothing but reduce choice. I want to hear somebody make a serious argument why adding extra abilities, ability combinations and options to warriors and rogues would make the game worse.

It would be great if Warriors and Rogues get new abilities and combinations.  I expect a Warrior-centric expansion, and a Rogue-centric expansion.  I also expect lots of crying about the extra abilities, but whatever.

surrealitycheck wrote...
Mages can do over 1000 damage in a single hit, and do it repeatedly in a short space of time.

Arrow of Slaying.

[deathwing200]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...


Arrow of Slaying.

...is trash

[Unbroken Lineage]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Inarai wrote...

rikkles wrote...

Want a high-dps guy? Get a mage.
Want a tank? Get a mage.
Want a AOE blaster? Get a mage
Want a long-range fighter? Get a mage
Want a healer? Get a mage

1: Certain Warrior builds and especially Striker Rogues, as well - built and played properly, those rogues can out-damage the mages (And are apparantly supposed to do more damage still.)
2: Certain Rogues, good Warriors - remind me, who has the talents to draw enemies?  How about prevent knockdown and stun?  What about preventing flanking?  Straight-up dodging?  Not the mage, to be sure.
3:  Well, yeah, though anyone with grenades can do pretty well, too.  Also, a couple Warrior specializations have good AoE CC.
4: Or an Archer Rogue or Warrior, although bows have bugged damage - same dex bug hitting Striker Rogues.
5: Or take potionmaking and use those.

See?  Other completely viable options.  Though there are a couple of bugs that need to be fixed first.

Arcane Warrior is the answer to all those questions.. I've soloed High Dragon, Kaxgang and Ser Cauthrien with my Arcane Warrior(LOL dont even mention soloing revenants.. zzz they're just like an ordinary Genlock).. and not even close of being killed. Doing 70% of party's damage too... and I certainly out dps anything with my buffs... and I have more survivability than 5 other parties witohut an Arcane Warrior.. all enemies do 1 damage (except ser Cauthrien did a bit nastier damage but nothing too heavy) and I have 420 health.. my damage in the Character screen is 88(spellweaver, 1 handed sword..).. my armor is 65 and defense 116.. mental and physical resistances are 100.. element resistances 75%.  those are at level 19.. i expect them to rise more before I've finished..

so just that alone would make me better than any other class/combination except PERHAPS another AW...
but oh no, i am AW/BM so I have an instant cast massparalysis that also damages.. and I can take control of the scariest enemy on the field.. and use my blood as mana, of course.. so i can also exploit any and all other cheese as well such as Cone of Cold.. and the buffs i have: arcane shields, combat magic, shimmering shields, rock armor, spell wisp, haste and telekinetic weapons...

That doesn't mean the game is broken.  You don't have to use it just because it's there.  Just don't do it.  My PC is a CC/Debuff Mage, and I only use AW for the ability to wear armor (comes with Fatigue) and the ability to swing Starfang when I run out of mana.  I could pwn the game with the Shimmering Shield win button, but don't.  Exercise restraint, enjoy the game.

[Unbroken Lineage]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Where does this expectation come from?  In what party-based fantasy RPG have you been able to play a mage-less party without expecting it to be more difficult and so on?

Hox many times will you say this (and get royally ignored) ?
Define a party-based fantasy RPG. Quote one that isn't made by Bioware or Obsidian.

Pick a Squaresoft party-based fantasy RPG, like Final Fantasy I-XII.  Or go older, with Bard's Tale I-III.  Or go more recent with Disgaea I-III.  Wizardry, Eye of the Beholder, Might and Magic... the list goes on.  

Pick any party-based fantasy RPG--when have any of you, in all of your experience playing RPGs, ever opted-out of taking mages in your party, and not expected the difficulty to go up?

Seriously, where has this expectation come from?

Oh, and I'm pretty sure this question is "ignored" because there aren't any such games that meet that criteria.  The reason I ask, is because I believe this expectation comes from somewhere else, somewhere outside of the domain of party-based fantasy RPGs.  Hmmm.

Modifié par Unbroken Lineage, 18 novembre 2009 - 03:27 .

[BlueEyes_Austin]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Where does this expectation come from?  In what party-based fantasy RPG have you been able to play a mage-less party without expecting it to be more difficult and so on?

Hox many times will you say this (and get royally ignored) ?
Define a party-based fantasy RPG. Quote one that isn't made by Bioware or Obsidian.

Pick a Squaresoft party-based fantasy RPG, like Final Fantasy I-XII.  Or go older, with Bard's Tale I-III.  Or go more recent with Disgaea I-III.  Wizardry, Eye of the Beholder, Might and Magic... the list goes on.  

Pick any party-based fantasy RPG--when have any of you, in all of your experience playing RPGs, ever opted-out of taking mages in your party, and not expected the difficulty to go up?

Seriously, where has this expectation come from?

Exactly.  It was as true in the Ultimas and and Gold Box AD&D as it is in DA:  Magic is a game-changer.  Hell, for most of the history of the genre, non-spellcasters were just autoattacking.

Also, one of the things that seems to confuse people about DA is that  the cleric and magic user roles are combined in mages...but a specced out healer is not the equivlent in damage of a specced out damage mage.  The DA "cleric-type" build seems to have similar damage capacity to an AD&D cleric, perhaps a little less.  Go figure that, eh!

[Zenthar Aseth]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Inarai wrote...

rikkles wrote...

Want a high-dps guy? Get a mage.
Want a tank? Get a mage.
Want a AOE blaster? Get a mage
Want a long-range fighter? Get a mage
Want a healer? Get a mage

1: Certain Warrior builds and especially Striker Rogues, as well - built and played properly, those rogues can out-damage the mages (And are apparantly supposed to do more damage still.)
2: Certain Rogues, good Warriors - remind me, who has the talents to draw enemies?  How about prevent knockdown and stun?  What about preventing flanking?  Straight-up dodging?  Not the mage, to be sure.
3:  Well, yeah, though anyone with grenades can do pretty well, too.  Also, a couple Warrior specializations have good AoE CC.
4: Or an Archer Rogue or Warrior, although bows have bugged damage - same dex bug hitting Striker Rogues.
5: Or take potionmaking and use those.

See?  Other completely viable options.  Though there are a couple of bugs that need to be fixed first.

Arcane Warrior is the answer to all those questions.. I've soloed High Dragon, Kaxgang and Ser Cauthrien with my Arcane Warrior(LOL dont even mention soloing revenants.. zzz they're just like an ordinary Genlock).. and not even close of being killed. Doing 70% of party's damage too... and I certainly out dps anything with my buffs... and I have more survivability than 5 other parties witohut an Arcane Warrior.. all enemies do 1 damage (except ser Cauthrien did a bit nastier damage but nothing too heavy) and I have 420 health.. my damage in the Character screen is 88(spellweaver, 1 handed sword..).. my armor is 65 and defense 116.. mental and physical resistances are 100.. element resistances 75%.  those are at level 19.. i expect them to rise more before I've finished..

so just that alone would make me better than any other class/combination except PERHAPS another AW...
but oh no, i am AW/BM so I have an instant cast massparalysis that also damages.. and I can take control of the scariest enemy on the field.. and use my blood as mana, of course.. so i can also exploit any and all other cheese as well such as Cone of Cold.. and the buffs i have: arcane shields, combat magic, shimmering shields, rock armor, spell wisp, haste and telekinetic weapons...

That doesn't mean the game is broken.  You don't have to use it just because it's there.  Just don't do it.  My PC is a CC/Debuff Mage, and I only use AW for the ability to wear armor (comes with Fatigue) and the ability to swing Starfang when I run out of mana.  I could pwn the game with the Shimmering Shield win button, but don't.  Exercise restraint, enjoy the game.

I'm not complaining.... I was just pointing out that mages CAN do everything better.. granted I Just finished the game with my AW and it was terribly boring in the end..

[Pocketgb]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Pick any party-based fantasy RPG--when have any of you, in all of your experience playing RPGs, ever opted-out of taking mages in your party, and not expected the difficulty to go up?

That's a good point.

But I also thought the difficulty would go up by stacking three mages and neglecting to bring the other classes, just like what happened when I didn't bring the mage in those older games. The exact opposite happened in Dragon Age.

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

That doesn't mean
the game is broken.  You don't have to use it just because it's there.
 Just don't do it.

Ignoring imbalance doesn't make things balanced.

Then again, for some, ignorance can indeed be bliss.

[F-C]

i knew one of the trolls would have to bump this up even though its been off the front page for over an hour now.

it just goes to prove my point about some of these people out there have nothing better to do with their lives than pound on a topic day in and day out for weeks on end.


bioware has told you they arnt going to do any major class rebalancing.
bioware has told you the game is balanced based on lore and the world.
bioware has told you to use the toolkit to change it if you dont like it.

give it a rest and do something productive with your bitter little lives.

Modifié par F-C, 18 novembre 2009 - 04:57 .

[Pocketgb]

F-C wrote...

i knew one of the trolls would have to bump this up even though its been off the front page for over an hour now.

People stating their opinions and beliefs - that harm noone - is trolling???

I will say that there have been people against the current state of mages that have indeed been a bit unnecessarily vocal, but to slab such a label on myself and Zenthar is incredibly unfair.

We know what Bioware have said. But that doesn't mean that some of us still disagree with it, nor does it mean that things will never change.

[F-C]

Pocketgb wrote...

I will say that there have been people against the current state of mages that have indeed been a bit unnecessarily vocal, but to slab such a label on myself and Zenthar is incredibly unfair.

this is just too funny coming from you, the guy who has been rampaging about this issue for 8+ hours a day for a week.

you were nearly the sole reason the one thread got to 40 pages on the old forums, you just wont let it go.

and you call sticking the label on you unfair? are you delusional about your own actions?

[Loc'n'lol]

F-C wrote...

bioware has told you they arnt going to do any major class rebalancing.
bioware has told you the game is balanced based on lore and the world.
bioware has told you to use the toolkit to change it if you dont like it.

Actually, no they have not.
We only have your word for it since the old foum was conveniently closed and devs seldom ever dare post on this one.

[Schyzm]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Inarai wrote...

rikkles wrote...

Want a high-dps guy? Get a mage.
Want a tank? Get a mage.
Want a AOE blaster? Get a mage
Want a long-range fighter? Get a mage
Want a healer? Get a mage

1: Certain Warrior builds and especially Striker Rogues, as well - built and played properly, those rogues can out-damage the mages (And are apparantly supposed to do more damage still.)
2: Certain Rogues, good Warriors - remind me, who has the talents to draw enemies?  How about prevent knockdown and stun?  What about preventing flanking?  Straight-up dodging?  Not the mage, to be sure.
3:  Well, yeah, though anyone with grenades can do pretty well, too.  Also, a couple Warrior specializations have good AoE CC.
4: Or an Archer Rogue or Warrior, although bows have bugged damage - same dex bug hitting Striker Rogues.
5: Or take potionmaking and use those.

See?  Other completely viable options.  Though there are a couple of bugs that need to be fixed first.

Arcane Warrior is the answer to all those questions.. I've soloed High Dragon, Kaxgang and Ser Cauthrien with my Arcane Warrior(LOL dont even mention soloing revenants.. zzz they're just like an ordinary Genlock).. and not even close of being killed. Doing 70% of party's damage too... and I certainly out dps anything with my buffs... and I have more survivability than 5 other parties witohut an Arcane Warrior.. all enemies do 1 damage (except ser Cauthrien did a bit nastier damage but nothing too heavy) and I have 420 health.. my damage in the Character screen is 88(spellweaver, 1 handed sword..).. my armor is 65 and defense 116.. mental and physical resistances are 100.. element resistances 75%.  those are at level 19.. i expect them to rise more before I've finished..

so just that alone would make me better than any other class/combination except PERHAPS another AW...
but oh no, i am AW/BM so I have an instant cast massparalysis that also damages.. and I can take control of the scariest enemy on the field.. and use my blood as mana, of course.. so i can also exploit any and all other cheese as well such as Cone of Cold.. and the buffs i have: arcane shields, combat magic, shimmering shields, rock armor, spell wisp, haste and telekinetic weapons...

That doesn't mean the game is broken.  You don't have to use it just because it's there.  Just don't do it.  My PC is a CC/Debuff Mage, and I only use AW for the ability to wear armor (comes with Fatigue) and the ability to swing Starfang when I run out of mana.  I could pwn the game with the Shimmering Shield win button, but don't.  Exercise restraint, enjoy the game.

just more play like an idiot on purpose advice.  not everyone desires to be an intentional ****** when they play.  some people want a combat environment that stimulates their creativity and intelligence not one where every inventive thing you do is so massively overpowered it trivializes combat.

[Chlamydion]

Will Bioware please come balance my checkbook?

[F-C]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

F-C wrote...

bioware has told you they arnt going to do any major class rebalancing.
bioware has told you the game is balanced based on lore and the world.
bioware has told you to use the toolkit to change it if you dont like it.

Actually, no they have not.
We only have your word for it since the old foum was conveniently closed and devs seldom ever dare post on this one.

pocket was there, he can confirm it.