666 réponses à ce sujet

[F-C]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

just because you dont like something doesnt mean its broken.

[DragoonKain3]

Nerhesi wrote...

DragoonKain3 wrote...

aberdash wrote...

I find it interesting that F-C avoids a thread about a mage 1 shotting a boss but immediately claims that a thread about the highest dps melee class is definitive proof mages are not op.

And I said in such a thread, having to waste 4  points in that 1 spell to oneshot maybe 5 reds in the entirety of the game is such a waste of talent points.

I'm going to have to comment since that was my thread - about one-shotting the boss.

5 Spells to 1-shot 5 reds?  F-C, lets not be obtuse just to try to push forth an agenda here.

There are tons of casters - Mana clash basically makes me ignore casters completely. Not just bosses or elites that have mana - no no, every single caster in the game is like a free bag of xp with 1 cast.

However, is this broken? Probably *NOT* now that I have been experimenting with dual-weilder damage.  We have to realise that this is not a multiplayer game. 1-shotting can be acceptable if a rogue/warrior will simply charge in, spamming aoe stuns (warrior) or coming out of stealth, then dealing ridiculous damage non-stop regardless of the target's class.

See, my problem with Spell Clash is that its not broken (I seriously don't think it is). It's that its not worth the 3 talent points to get it, no matter how powerful it is. Nerfing it means that spell line is absolutely useless, as far as I'm concerned.

And as I said, you would face 2 enemy trash mages at the most for the vast majority of encounters. For these, Crushing Prison/Blood Control are examples of tier 4 spells works that almost as well (I like Blood Control since then enemy melee pounds on said caster), which while not as effecient, means you can use it on other targets as well. Sure Spell Clash is powerful, but I had a respec option, I would have put those 4 points into something else.

[Nerhesi]

Schyzm wrote...

Nerhesi wrote...

I think what is important to realise, is even though magic sometimes seems so broken because of the... "I'll cast this, then that.. then BAM" effect resulting in either 1k+ damage or massive-aoe-damaging locks....

Other classes have just as much power, but which is less evident or flashy. I mean - a rogue that is "stealthing" in and out of combat, using a couple of blades/gems/gear to sit at 75% spell resist (PASSIVE) and 50% "chance to dodge attacks" is pretty disgusting if not more disgusting...

Same with the warrior who simply runs in and thinks start disappearing around him while spamming that aoe knockdown shout...

It may not be very clear, because due to the gold cost, it may be very hard to maximize all party members... so you may end up with only 1 star in the party, and then suddenly "Wow! Why is XXX so amazing?!"

except they aren't, and just to prove you're wrong.

"Same with the warrior who simply runs in and thinks start disappearing around him while spamming that aoe knockdown shout..."

20 sec cd, and knockdown lasts like 2 seconds.  oh and its also inside a specialization.

Blood Magic paralyse is also inside a specialization, that requires a stance, that should you somehow start getting hit while you're doing anything - you'd be wrecked thanks to the reduced healing.

And yes, that is a powerful talent - you're complaining that it should be longer? Lasts "like" 2 seconds? Maybe you're not familiar with how long it takes you to get up because you don't get knocked down much... Because doing ridiculous passive damage while being immune to spells and knocking down everything every 10 seconds make you "mage-like" ?

And how exactly is this proving me wrong with all the posts around level 12 dual weilders annihilating anything they run into?  Have you tried putting up your spell resistance? Grandmaster dweomer ruins?

[Pocketgb]

F-C wrote...

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

just because you dont like something doesnt mean its broken.

Just because you like something doesn't mean it isn't :3

That said, if you agreed that the other classes/skill trees could use a boost, don't you agree that things aren't currently "up to par"?

PS: We can post pics????

!!!

Modifié par Pocketgb, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:33 .

[F-C]

Pocketgb wrote...

Just because you like something doesn't mean it isn't :3

That said, if you agreed that the other classes/skill trees could use a boost, don't you agree that things aren't currently "up to par"?

the developers dont think its broken and its their game, that really is the bottom line.


i also didnt agree the other classes were not 'up to par', i simply said i wouldnt oppose buffing them. there is a difference.

i personally think the other classes are fine as is, but if they want to make them better, hey thats fine.

Modifié par F-C, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:29 .

[Schyzm]

Nerhesi wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

Nerhesi wrote...

I think what is important to realise, is even though magic sometimes seems so broken because of the... "I'll cast this, then that.. then BAM" effect resulting in either 1k+ damage or massive-aoe-damaging locks....

Other classes have just as much power, but which is less evident or flashy. I mean - a rogue that is "stealthing" in and out of combat, using a couple of blades/gems/gear to sit at 75% spell resist (PASSIVE) and 50% "chance to dodge attacks" is pretty disgusting if not more disgusting...

Same with the warrior who simply runs in and thinks start disappearing around him while spamming that aoe knockdown shout...

It may not be very clear, because due to the gold cost, it may be very hard to maximize all party members... so you may end up with only 1 star in the party, and then suddenly "Wow! Why is XXX so amazing?!"

except they aren't, and just to prove you're wrong.

"Same with the warrior who simply runs in and thinks start disappearing around him while spamming that aoe knockdown shout..."

20 sec cd, and knockdown lasts like 2 seconds.  oh and its also inside a specialization.

Blood Magic paralyse is also inside a specialization, that requires a stance, that should you somehow start getting hit while you're doing anything - you'd be wrecked thanks to the reduced healing.

And yes, that is a powerful talent - you're complaining that it should be longer? Lasts "like" 2 seconds? Maybe you're not familiar with how long it takes you to get up because you don't get knocked down much... Because doing ridiculous passive damage while being immune to spells and knocking down everything every 10 seconds make you "mage-like" ?

And how exactly is this proving me wrong with all the posts around level 12 dual weilders annihilating anything they run into?  Have you tried putting up your spell resistance? Grandmaster dweomer ruins?

yes if only mages had other ways to cc ppl besides that blood talent...but alas, they do not.  it is sad I know.

I haven't "tried" that. look I'm impressed by the min/maxers work on the high single target dps rogue build.  I don't wanna hate on the powergamers, they're cool.  It still ends up being trade everything on the planet to stand behind someone and auto attack, again assuming you can actually stay behind them, lots of bosses aren't necessarily anxious to just let someone stand behind them and wale.  forgive me if giving up practically every other advantage in the game for modestly better dmg is something I'm not anxious to do.  I don't want to put down the rogue build, it is a very good work:)

[Pocketgb]

F-C wrote...

the developers dont think its broken and its their game, that really is the bottom line.

A shame, innit, especially when players have brought up very positive changes.

At least they're human, i.e. always subject to change.

Regards to the rest: do you just not care about balance?

[Bloodgarth]

I think they should just buff warriors/rogues. It's fun to be powerful in this game, so don't take that away from Mages. I don't understand what all the flaming is for, the OP has made a very strong argument that had been bothering me throughout the 30 hrs or so that I have been playing. It's a great game, but it could be even greater...that's what is driving fans to push suggestions. Don't hate on them because we are all here for the same reason.

[Schyzm]

Pocketgb wrote...

F-C wrote...

the developers dont think its broken and its their game, that really is the bottom line.

A shame, innit, especially when players have brought up very positive changes.

At least they're human, i.e. always subject to change.

Regards to the rest: do you just not care about balance?

look, the game is perfectly balanced, but if you made some classes stronger that'd be fine too and the game would remain perfectly balanced.

(*#@)*()#@)(*

[Pocketgb]

Bloodgarth wrote...

I think they should just buff warriors/rogues. It's fun to be powerful in this game, so don't take that away from Mages. I don't understand what all the flaming is for, the OP has made a very strong argument that had been bothering me throughout the 30 hrs or so that I have been playing. It's a great game, but it could be even greater...that's what is driving fans to push suggestions. Don't hate on them because we are all here for the same reason.

My only concern with that is it on a whole makes the game easier. But to be honest I'd rather have a balanced game than a challenging one, so I'd be all for the war/rogue buff.

[F-C]

Pocketgb wrote...

A shame, innit, especially when players have brought up very positive changes.

At least they're human, i.e. always subject to change.

Regards to the rest: do you just not care about balance?

we are just talking in circles again... did you know repeating the same thing and expecting different results is considered a form of insanity?


a vocal minority has brought up issues that make them nerd rage, nothing more.

my stance on balance is that the game is balanced as is, the developers agree with me.

Modifié par F-C, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:38 .

[DragoonKain3]

Schyzm wrote...

considering your spec uses upwards of a half dozen relatively bad spells I don't see that as a problem.  the reality is mages should take the best spells they can reasonably get their hands on.  "speccing" is an anachronism from another game that has no basis in dragon age mechanics(at least for mages).

And you're still vague exactly which ones are 'bad'. You can't even give me proper builds for a 2 mage party so that I know exactly what are the 'best spells they can reasonably get their hands on', so I don't see how this has any validity.

mages are better than rogues and warriors by a long ass ways.  warriors dont even take damage as good as mages,

You've got to effing kidding me. Outside of Shimmering Shield exploits, nothing can tank as well as a 150 base defense dodge wartank, and he gets to keep aggro infinitely as well. He can stand in front of Revenant in nightmare for a very long time before needing to heal (only need one shot of healing at that too), and Heroic Defense is basically a forcefield on him barring auto-hit things like grabs.

and rogues while some min/maxers have found very high dmg auto attack reliant setups you essentially give up literally everything else to stand behind someone(lol try on dragon) and auto attack

Which is why Pinpoint Striking is there for. Even combat movement is MORE than enough to easily get backstabs, even dragons as you can avoid their tailswipes then.

and of course that dps only counts if your actually doing it, getting tailwhipped or knocked back or cced or being unable to get behind something that moves a lot will essentially destroy dps.

And if you have a proper tank, this is a non-issue. 

the tradeoff is just not worth it.  now I suppose if they were to patch warriors and rogues so they did so much more dmg than mages that taking more than 2 mages made you really bad at dmg than...well then some ppl if they wanted to could replace one of their 3 mages with a rogue.  haha.  

Taking more than 2 mages does not mean you are really bad at damage. All I'm arguing is that taking a rogue instead of a third mage would give you more single target dps, and give you extra utility that a mage does not offer, while the sacrifices areless mage spells which you do not need since you already have 2 mages.

3 mage parties are not bad by any means, just not optimal. They're still much better than 1 mage or 0 mage parties.

[BlueEyes_Austin]

Schyzm wrote...

fireball, blizzard, storm of the century, death hex, sleep, horror, mass paralyize, glyph of repulsion, revival, lifeward, glyph of paralyize, petrify, waking nightmare.  and that's just off the top of my head.

Total Talents required for this list: 35

[Schyzm]

DragoonKain3 wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

considering your spec uses upwards of a half dozen relatively bad spells I don't see that as a problem.  the reality is mages should take the best spells they can reasonably get their hands on.  "speccing" is an anachronism from another game that has no basis in dragon age mechanics(at least for mages).

And you're still vague exactly which ones are 'bad'. You can't even give me proper builds for a 2 mage party so that I know exactly what are the 'best spells they can reasonably get their hands on', so I don't see how this has any validity.

mages are better than rogues and warriors by a long ass ways.  warriors dont even take damage as good as mages,

You've got to effing kidding me. Outside of Shimmering Shield exploits, nothing can tank as well as a 150 base defense dodge wartank, and he gets to keep aggro infinitely as well. He can stand in front of Revenant in nightmare for a very long time before needing to heal (only need one shot of healing at that too), and Heroic Defense is basically a forcefield on him barring auto-hit things like grabs.

and rogues while some min/maxers have found very high dmg auto attack reliant setups you essentially give up literally everything else to stand behind someone(lol try on dragon) and auto attack

Which is why Pinpoint Striking is there for. Even combat movement is MORE than enough to easily get backstabs, even dragons as you can avoid their tailswipes then.

and of course that dps only counts if your actually doing it, getting tailwhipped or knocked back or cced or being unable to get behind something that moves a lot will essentially destroy dps.

And if you have a proper tank, this is a non-issue. 

the tradeoff is just not worth it.  now I suppose if they were to patch warriors and rogues so they did so much more dmg than mages that taking more than 2 mages made you really bad at dmg than...well then some ppl if they wanted to could replace one of their 3 mages with a rogue.  haha.  

Taking more than 2 mages does not mean you are really bad at damage. All I'm arguing is that taking a rogue instead of a third mage would give you more single target dps, and give you extra utility that a mage does not offer, while the sacrifices areless mage spells which you do not need since you already have 2 mages.

3 mage parties are not bad by any means, just not optimal. They're still much better than 1 mage or 0 mage parties.

because I"m not a powergamer.  I couldn't tell you if mass paarlyze is better or worse than fireball, I know they're both amazingly awesome.  why do you demand I know to the exact spell what all the best spells are?  including differentiating between bunches of amazingly powerful spells?  I'm sorry but I do not.  I guess you are a superior powergamer to me, I bow to your supreme awesome exactness.

"shimmering shield exploits" indeed another mage spell so powerful its mere use is called an exploit.  I think you using the word exploit on a mage spell should give you a hint as to how crazy mages are.

[Schyzm]

BlueEyes_Austin wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

fireball, blizzard, storm of the century, death hex, sleep, horror, mass paralyize, glyph of repulsion, revival, lifeward, glyph of paralyize, petrify, waking nightmare.  and that's just off the top of my head.

Total Talents required for this list: 35

sweet.  throw in the blood line too, and the arcane warrior, I kinda left those out for no reason.

[Unbroken Lineage]

Schyzm wrote...
"shimmering shield exploits" indeed another mage spell so powerful its mere use is called an exploit.  I think you using the word exploit on a mage spell should give you a hint as to how crazy mages are.

The "exploit" part is that it should run out when your mana runs out, but it doesn't.  It's probably a bug.

Modifié par Unbroken Lineage, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:51 .

[Pocketgb]

F-C wrote...

we are just talking in circles again... did you know repeating the same thing and expecting different results is considered a form of insanity?

F-C wrote...

i think it might have to do with the fact bioware has stated they arnt going to do any major class rebalancing.

they arnt going to reduce mages.

bioware told you to use the toolkit to mod your game if you want something changed.

F-C wrote...

bioware has told you they arnt going to do any major class rebalancing.
bioware has told you the game is balanced based on lore and the world.
bioware has told you to use the toolkit to change it if you dont like it.

F-C wrote...

thats why they give you a toolkit.

F-C wrote...

toolkit.

But if the game is indeed balanced, then it should be proven the equal viability of each class/skilltree all on the same difficulty setting.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:53 .

[F-C]

Schyzm wrote...

 the reality is mages should take the best spells they can reasonably get their hands on.  

Schyzm wrote...

 why do you demand I know to the exact spell what all the best spells are? 

lol.

[Schyzm]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Schyzm wrote...
"shimmering shield exploits" indeed another mage spell so powerful its mere use is called an exploit.  I think you using the word exploit on a mage spell should give you a hint as to how crazy mages are.

The "exploit" part is that it should run out when your mana runs out, but it doesn't.  It's probably a bug.

again I think this goes back to the forcefield argument where it's considered an "exploit" to use forcefield on an ally because the ai won't stop attacking.  I think we can agree perhaps that a different mechanic would be more balanced, but considering the obviousness of the forcefield mechanic as well as the shimmering shield mechanic, I'm pretty sure both are intentional.  I can't personally imagine merely overlooking what happens when a defensive ability that drains mana drains u fully of mana.

[Unbroken Lineage]

Wow, Hardcore Mod (currently at version 2.2) looks awesome.

[AlphaMagnum]

Question: Are there any spells which *do* work the way Shimmering Shield is supposed to work?



i.e., mana-draining modal abilities which deactivate when you're out of mana?



I'd like to mod the scripts to get that working, which is doable if I know where to start.

[Pocketgb]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Wow, Hardcore Mod (currently at version 2.2) looks awesome.

No potions, a bit more balance, it is indeed tastie.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:58 .

[F-C]

Pocketgb wrote...



But if the game is indeed balanced, then it should be proven the equal viability of each class all on the same difficulty setting.

should i go back and find the hundreds of times you repeated yourself over the last week?
you know you have, its just a waste of my time.

at least i realize that its just insane to think you or schyzm will change your bitter little minds.



as far as your last statement there, this is a story driven RPG and you will never get that kind of balance.

there is a reason they call it the holy trinity - tank - healer - damage

if you take away from that trinity you will always increase the difficulty, the same can said for nearly any game of this style out there.

i have already gone over this multiple times and you just refuse to acknowledge the truth of it.

the classic 4 man group would be 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 damage

this usually equates to warrior - rogue - wizard - cleric
in DAO that means its warrior - rogue - mage - mage

its not broken, its not unbalanced, its perfectly fine.

even the developers have told you that, but you are just too insane to accept reality and feel the need to continue your little personal crusade.

Modifié par F-C, 18 novembre 2009 - 08:01 .

[Schyzm]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Wow, Hardcore Mod (currently at version 2.2) looks awesome.

bioware needs to port the best hardcore mod to console in penance to those people.

[F-C]

AlphaMagnum wrote...

Question: Are there any spells which *do* work the way Shimmering Shield is supposed to work?

i.e., mana-draining modal abilities which deactivate when you're out of mana?

I'd like to mod the scripts to get that working, which is doable if I know where to start.

maybe look at Haste.

actually it appears thats broken as well and the mana drain isnt functioning properly.

Modifié par F-C, 18 novembre 2009 - 08:00 .