666 réponses à ce sujet

[Pocketgb]

F-C wrote...

if you want to argue that they should have had more mage NPC's that is not an imabalance with mages, but just a design decision you dont like.

God forbid people don't like poor design decisions - like giving Wynn 18 strength.

[F-C]

chizow wrote...

Thankfully the overwhelming majority of DA:O fans do not agree with you

i still find it amusing that you think the trolls i can count on one hand are the "overwhelming majority of DA:O"

yep, you are right, im the ignorant one alright. you got it pegged.

lol.

[Pocketgb]

F-C wrote...

chizow wrote...

Thankfully the overwhelming majority of DA:O fans do not agree with you

i still find it amusing that you think the trolls i can count on one hand are the "overwhelming majority of DA:O"

I find it equally amusing that you assuming everyone who isn't responding on these forums understands the game completely and thus are able to provide an informed opinion of it.

The "majority" opinion is easy to observe but nigh impossible to calculate. When a game is selling well you can only tell that there's something in there that the developer is getting right, but you can never fully grasp what it is. You can't determine how they feel.

A forum rarely represents the rest of the playerbase - go to the WoW forums and see how many people are crying there, but yet it's STILL one of the most successful games of all time.

To sum it up: since you cannot gather directly how the majority of the playerbase feels about the game, you can at least tell something from sales. For everything else, that's what the forums are for. That's why this thread is here.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 18 novembre 2009 - 11:07 .

[F-C]

no this thread is here because trolls like you just wont let it go. like i said there is a handful of trolls in this thread i can count on hand that just keep on and on and on.



this thread almost fell off the front page but you just had to stick something in to bump it up because you couldnt let it go.



case in point.

[Pocketgb]

F-C wrote...

this thread almost fell off the front page but you just had to stick something in to bump it up because you couldnt let it go.

And then you reply to what I say - and huzzah, it gets bummed again.

That's like complaining about smokers when you're holding a cigar.

Edit: Yuck, just getting trolled over and over again here...Sorry I took the bait, guys : (

I'll reply back if any of this stuff gets refuted.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 18 novembre 2009 - 11:15 .

[F-C]

Pocketgb wrote...

And then you reply to what I say - and huzzah, it gets bummed again.

That's like complaining about smokers when you're holding a cigar.

when i reply right after you it doesnt make much difference because its already at the top of the page now does it.

that small amount of logic just surpasses you though, i know.


you can keep going though, i mean its fine really when you think about it.

you handful of trolls have most definately made an impression with the developers, probably to the point they would rather give you your 50$ back and get rid of you than do anything you ever asked for, but hey, its an impression!

[RedShft]

No it's single player. If you want to rebalance it make a mod.

[chizow]

F-C wrote...

chizow wrote...

Thankfully the overwhelming majority of DA:O fans do not agree with you

i still find it amusing that you think the trolls i can count on one hand are the "overwhelming majority of DA:O"

yep, you are right, im the ignorant one alright. you got it pegged.

lol.

Its not nearly as amusing as your attempt to characterize Georg Zoeller's post as nothing more than an acknowledgment of bug fixes when in fact, his statement had nothing to do with bugs but directly addressed in-game systems you've repeatedly apologized for as "working as intended".

As for the overwhelming majority, again, some of us have been posting on this iteration of the DA forums longer than a day or two and not just because the "other forums" closed down.   If you bothered to take a look back many of these similar threads about balance/game improvements are overwhelmingly constructive in favor of changes to the current game.  Again, feel free to browse through the link in my sig, you can post an apology too for Bioware's design decisions if you like, it'll just come off the same as all your other posts, a singular troll in a sea of contrary opinions.

This thread is a good example of how various blissfully ignorant trolls satisfied with the status quo quickly change the nature of such contructive posts in their attempt to drown out constructive dialogue and feedback.

[DFA_Octo]

I am now on my 3rd play through after completing it with a rogue on normal and an AW on nightmare and I came to the conclusion that the game would only be challenging if I didn't use any mages and played on nightmare, so I am now playing a warrior on Nightmare without any mages in my party (2hwar/tank/2xranged rogues). The game is now about the difficulty that I wanted with some of the harder fights sometimes taking me up to 5 trys to beat because I can't just blindly attack whatever I want anymore, I actually have to think of how to beat some fights. (my war is now lvl 15 I think and im still doing it with no mages and on Nightmare).



On the OPness of mages I think that if all mana pots were on the same cooldown and for about 3x as long it would make them a bit better. 2 ideas on how to fix arcane warriors (they really are too OP even if it is a single player game - 1 AW can solo the archdemon on Nightmare with only lesser healing potions). Firstly make it so you can't activate the 2 AW sustained abilities during combat - that way you cant cast all your mana then go into melee mode, you have to have them going before you start - and secondly make it so that rock armor and the AW armor sustained ability can't both be on at the same time, that way you've still got more armor than a warrior but not so much that nothing in the game can do more than tickle you.

[chizow]

F-C wrote...

chizow wrote...



Thankfully the overwhelming majority of DA:O fans do not agree with you

i still find it amusing that you think the trolls i can count on one hand are the "overwhelming majority of DA:O"



yep, you are right, im the ignorant one alright. you got it pegged.



lol.

Its not nearly as amusing as your attempt to characterize Georg Zoeller's post as nothing more than an acknowledgment of bug fixes when in fact, his statement had nothing to do with bugs but directly addressed in-game systems you've repeatedly apologized for as "working as intended".



As for the overwhelming majority, again, some of us have been posting on this iteration of the DA forums longer than a day or two and not just because the "other forums" closed down. If you bothered to take a look back many of these similar threads about balance/game improvements are overwhelmingly constructive in favor of changes to the current game. Again, feel free to browse through the link in my sig, you can post an apology too for Bioware's design decisions if you like, it'll just come off the same as all your other posts, a singular troll in a sea of contrary opinions.



This thread is a good example of how various "blissfully ignorant trolls" satisfied with the status quo quickly change the nature of such contructive posts in their attempt to drown out constructive dialogue and feedback.

[Unbroken Lineage]

Attention anyone willing to take an active role in the rebalancing of this game:
Please direct your attention to AlphaMagnum's call to gather requirements for a rebalancing mod he is working on. Please only post in that thread if you're actually interested in the mod. Perhaps the community can produce a kind of balance-by-committee best-practice to inspire BioWare for official releases on the consoles and such.

Whatever the case, the path to satisfaction probably starts there for those who seek rebalance.

Maybe the Hardcore Mod dudes can get involved and join forces. Whatever.

Carry on.

Modifié par Unbroken Lineage, 19 novembre 2009 - 03:06 .

[jbann311]

I didn't read through all the pages here but I disagree that there is an over reliance on mages in this game.



I run single mage on Hard constantly. People complain that running 2 mages is too powerful, well what the hell is running a team with Alister and Shale? Mince meat? Hardly

[Shappy1010]

I've said it before and say it again, all the so called problems with overpowerful mages etc. same for BG 1&2, I never heard any complaints back then.



Man.. where are the good old days when we were just playing games and not flaming each other and complaining on the web.

[Zenthar Aseth]

F-C's trolling is really getting tiresome. And so is this thread because of it..

[Marvin TPA]

I am a still a bit confused. What actually needs balancing in the game?



I play a bit of City of Heroes and understand the whole issue of balance in that, its sort of a necessary evil that is essential to creating a level playing field.



Why would anything in this game need to be balanced?



Possible tiny spoiler...







In the main campaign whatever class your Hero is they gain huge boosts to skills and talents with tomes. Also in one area this hero also gets a massive boost to their stats. This is fundamentaly unbalancing. It is also huge fun and makes you feel very heroic and certainly for me crucial to pulling me into the game.

In the MMO I play it would be impossible and would require every other alt. and villain be rebalanced, but in this game no problem just fun.



I know this doesn't contribute much to the debate going on, but sorry I simply don't understand what folks are arguing about. Balance; not just what but why?

[digitalAngst]

On The Possibility Of Playing The Game Without A Damage-Dealing Mage      ...And Survive

Y'know, for my first (current) playthrough I rolled a rogue and sent her down the dual-wield path. She was badly built; with point distributed in a horrible mix between str, dex and cunning and overflowing with feats I never used even once. And I had no damage-dealing mage in my party. (I gave Morrigan the boot just because she's an evil snake and disagreed with just about any of my actions)

The game was brutal. We were slaughtered in every single g*dd*mn fight we fought. I reloaded about every 10 minutes even after I yanked the slider down to EASY as soon as a yellow or red goon appeared amongst the enemy lines.

I was THIS close to stop playing and abandon Dragon Age.

But then I sat down to THINK. I read a bit in the forum, aquired a sense of character-building, I weeded out all the crap my characters had aquired in their 40 hours long life. I installed the respec mod, rebuilt my babe from the ground up, corrected some of Allister's flaws and started playing again.

It was a breeze.
Okay I'm still just playing on normal, but anyway, for the first time ever had I FUN playing the game. The back alleys in Denerin were a massacre, enemy bandits and rogues fell left and right. The darkspawn hordes in Honnleath were dealt swiftly with in a matter of minutes. And I still have no damage-dealing mage in my party.

Because now I don't need one anymore. I have incredible fun playing a rogue/rogue/healer/tank party, running on tactics with very little need of micro-managing. And maybe, oh maybe I'll even play on 'hard' sometime.


tl;dr beloo

So, my conclusion is, I wouldn't call mages 'overpowered'. It's just that they require the least skill to be played effectively. CLICK BUTTON TO NUKE ENEMIES. And I'm under the impression that this is exactly as intended by Bioware, so as to provide an 'I WIN' button for the casual players or something along these lines.


HTH, dA.

[reddragon567]

My first playthrough I went with a Rogue, Alistar, Shale, and Wynn. Wynn wasn't a damage dealer (only had that "Throwing Stone" attack whatever that is.). I didn't know about the Taunt+Force Field trick and I played through hard.

Other than having to get through encounters a lot harder because it was my first playthrough it was still very doable.

I'm playing through again on Nightmare for my 3rd playthough. I know how to build my stats, I still don't have a damage dealer mage. And I am a 2h Warrior.

The only thing I think they would need to do is cut Force Field's duration in half. That's the only skill I use that I feel cheap using but it saves my butt too many times to count. 

Modifié par reddragon567, 19 novembre 2009 - 07:28 .

[Wompoo]

Playing a melee build at present, a Human Noble, no damage dealing mage, both are set to party heal and buff only, and it is a cake walk on normal and hard setting. Shale set to full tank agro management with 2 dps. Honestly, the game does not require re-balancing at all, in its present form it allows for experimentation... yes some groups will be harder then others, that is a given , but that is part of the fun.



Melee is far from weak, I actually find a well setup melee team with support to be a juggernaut when using tactics that match the group composition.



If anything needed redoing in DAO it is the rather empty and forgettable endings to the Origin stories. Mages don't need to be be leveled with an I win button. They can be CC support and essentially make life easier still for melee npcs. My first play through was as a crowd controller, damage out put was average and I had a ball. I sincerely hope there is no ludicrous attempts to balance a single player game like some bland rudimentary MMO like WoW or City of Heros

[TitanX84]

This has all been covered already.



@Martin & Wompoo - The game needs to be rebalanced because it just isn't efficient to bring melee characters over mages. Mages can tank, dps, aoe, and heal. They do everything that melee can, only better. Some people want to make their group the way they want, and when you bring a melee heavy group you're essentially being penalized for it. I think most people here are fine with leaving mages in their current state, they just want melee characters buffed more since they are so highly overshadowed by mages.

[egervari]

digitalAngst wrote...

On The Possibility Of Playing The Game Without A Damage-Dealing Mage      ...And Survive

Y'know, for my first (current) playthrough I rolled a rogue and sent her down the dual-wield path. She was badly built; with point distributed in a horrible mix between str, dex and cunning and overflowing with feats I never used even once. And I had no damage-dealing mage in my party. (I gave Morrigan the boot just because she's an evil snake and disagreed with just about any of my actions)

The game was brutal. We were slaughtered in every single g*dd*mn fight we fought. I reloaded about every 10 minutes even after I yanked the slider down to EASY as soon as a yellow or red goon appeared amongst the enemy lines.

I was THIS close to stop playing and abandon Dragon Age.

But then I sat down to THINK. I read a bit in the forum, aquired a sense of character-building, I weeded out all the crap my characters had aquired in their 40 hours long life. I installed the respec mod, rebuilt my babe from the ground up, corrected some of Allister's flaws and started playing again.

It was a breeze.
Okay I'm still just playing on normal, but anyway, for the first time ever had I FUN playing the game. The back alleys in Denerin were a massacre, enemy bandits and rogues fell left and right. The darkspawn hordes in Honnleath were dealt swiftly with in a matter of minutes. And I still have no damage-dealing mage in my party.

Because now I don't need one anymore. I have incredible fun playing a rogue/rogue/healer/tank party, running on tactics with very little need of micro-managing. And maybe, oh maybe I'll even play on 'hard' sometime.


tl;dr beloo

So, my conclusion is, I wouldn't call mages 'overpowered'. It's just that they require the least skill to be played effectively. CLICK BUTTON TO NUKE ENEMIES. And I'm under the impression that this is exactly as intended by Bioware, so as to provide an 'I WIN' button for the casual players or something along these lines.


HTH, dA.

It's not just that mages are needed for damage, they are needed for their crowd control, etc. Most of us have not said mages were only needed for range dps. If you go back to my earlier posts (many, many pages ago), you'll see I and others were talking about other mage uses.

Regardless, the class itself needs balancing because it can do too much, and it can do it better than most other builds.

Also, those battle scenarios are not the hardest in the game. The town you speak of is purposefully toned down so a party just getting out of Lothering can beat it. The bandits are not the hardest areas in the game. 

Modifié par egervari, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:24 .

[Su-do]

Few posts have already stated this, but it stands to reason that i needs to be stated again (since it keeps getting rehashed).



This is a single player epic fantasy role playing game whose very story is based on how power magic is. So power in fact that it has caused the current campaign you are playing!.



This is not an MMO. There needs to be no balance vs other classes, there is no PvP, and has been proven over and over again by people, its difficulty or ease is dependant on on how you use tactics and or how you build a character.



If you think mages are the only ones who can crowd control, you've obviously not tried out all the other various skills mages, bards, rogues, etc etc have to do...just that, Crowd control.



Is it as good as mages? No. Should it be? No. Do you have to have mages. No. Choice. It's an amazing thing that you can exercise!

[WillieStyle]

Why do people constantly confuse assertions with arguments?

[egervari]

Su-do wrote...

Few posts have already stated this, but it stands to reason that i needs to be stated again (since it keeps getting rehashed).

This is a single player epic fantasy role playing game whose very story is based on how power magic is. So power in fact that it has caused the current campaign you are playing!.

This is not an MMO. There needs to be no balance vs other classes, there is no PvP, and has been proven over and over again by people, its difficulty or ease is dependant on on how you use tactics and or how you build a character.

If you think mages are the only ones who can crowd control, you've obviously not tried out all the other various skills mages, bards, rogues, etc etc have to do...just that, Crowd control.

Is it as good as mages? No. Should it be? No. Do you have to have mages. No. Choice. It's an amazing thing that you can exercise!

You can still buff the other classes and not nerf mages. There are tons of stamina and stat balances that could be made. I and others have listed what changes would make the balance more tolerable and would give a lot more choice and flexibility in how one plays the game. This is not about nerfing mages - just gives melee characters a boost.

[jalford1980]

The thing about this is its all opinion.  The game does not need rebalancing, its great teh way it is.  I think the biggest problem is that this game should of been PC only.

My reasons:

I get the game on PC, my buddy gets it on console.  We start at the same time.  he is playing a mage, with arcane warrior as his specialty, im playing a warrior, with no specialties(i just got reaver at lvl 14, and still havent got another).

He gets to the circle tower and gets to the room with 5 templars and a demon and cant beat it, and gives up(sense your locked in there, if you didnt keep a saved game outside, your screwed).  I get there and have no problems at all.  I keep playing and i love it, he quits and hates it.  I ask him why, and all the reasons he gives me revolve around how bad the AI is......rogue does **** damage, allister cant hold hate, his arcane warrior goes down to fast, etc...., but as i dug deaper, i realized all his problems could of been fixed had he been playing on PC.

Examples being that he has a bear of a time getting his party into the right positions because he has to physically move them there.  Me, i just zoom out to iso view, and right click each of them into position.  He feels like he has no control over his party, I feel i have total control.  On console, he doesnt have a hot bar, me I have EVERYTHING on my hotbar and dont have to worry about hotkeys.  If someone takes a crit and is about to die like the OP mentioned, i que up my heal, but i dont trust it alone, i make sure i drink a health pot on the low health member as well. 

I could go on and on about why the PC game is so much more enjoyable but i think you get the jest.  Im playing on hard with a reaver warrior as my main, morrigan as a CC/DPS mage, wynne as a healer/buffer, lellianna as a bard(prob going to go ranger or dualist as second choice)/DPS(i changed here to DW daggers and with the right gear and skill choices, she does STUPID single target damage, more than my mage...single target only of course), and having very little difficulty with the game.  It is still challanging, but in a good way.  Its very nice to be able to plan out my battles so tactically, and that is where the console falls sooo short.  Without iso view, and right click party movement, i dont hink i could do that.

I will agree with some people that it sucks that you pretty much feel you have to get 2 mages for the group at first, but after i got a handle on the game, i made a group with only wynne, and had a warrior as my second DPS, and i did ok. I made wynne a healer/CC.  the key is CC, its the CC that makes the mage so valuable, not the DPS.  But if think about it, what party based RPG have you played that doesnt REQUIRE you to have a healer.  And once i got a handle on the game, one mage as a healer/CC is more than enough.

And to the statement about stamina, get more willpower number one, but make sure you equip you warrior with gear that gives a bonus to stamina, with shield wall and threaten running, im only taking up a slither of my stamina.  And with the bard song, mass rejuvinate, and rejuvinate, i never run out until the VERY end of a long fight.  And my rogue can outDPS everyone just standing behind the boss autoattacking due to backstab.

[jalford1980]

Oh, and i forgot, to the balance issue of mages doing so much...this game is a single player game, balance means NOTHING, nothing at all.  You only need balance in a MP game.

The other thing is that a mage is more than 1 class.  they are more like 5-7 different classes rolled into one.  They can be a paladin, mage, shapeshifter, warlock/summoner, CC/enchanter/buffer/debuffer, it all depends on how you build them.

The other classes dont have quite as much flexibility, because lore wise it would make sense for them to take on those roles, so they seem inferior.  rogues are close to in all the things they can do, but they cant do any of it near as good.  A bard as some CC and buffing, but not near as much as the mage can get.  And warrior have even less roles, they can get 1 buff and debuff from the champ line, but other than that they are tank or DPS, nothing more.

So my point, is to allow for all the different roles that can be needed ina  group, and still make it work good for their lore, mages had to get a very broad skill set.  Which in turn makes them very potent.  You can bring 2 mages along and its like having 2 extra party memember on top of the 4 you already have cause its so easy to get a mage to do 2 jobs, while the other classes can only do it to a much smaller extent.  None of them can do the dual job of CC/DPS like morigan does for me and healer/buffer than wynne does for me.