666 réponses à ce sujet

[Loc'n'lol]

jalford1980 wrote...

Oh, and i forgot, to the balance issue of mages doing so much...this game is a single player game, balance means NOTHING, nothing at all.  You only need balance in a MP game.

If the devs thought like you, the game would be unplayable. Fortunately, though there are some obvious imbalance issues, they did a pretty good job overall, considering the sheer size of the game and the number of different party setups possible.

[Su-do]

egervari wrote...

Su-do wrote...

Few posts have already stated this, but it stands to reason that i needs to be stated again (since it keeps getting rehashed).

This is a single player epic fantasy role playing game whose very story is based on how power magic is. So power in fact that it has caused the current campaign you are playing!.

This is not an MMO. There needs to be no balance vs other classes, there is no PvP, and has been proven over and over again by people, its difficulty or ease is dependant on on how you use tactics and or how you build a character.

If you think mages are the only ones who can crowd control, you've obviously not tried out all the other various skills mages, bards, rogues, etc etc have to do...just that, Crowd control.

Is it as good as mages? No. Should it be? No. Do you have to have mages. No. Choice. It's an amazing thing that you can exercise!

You can still buff the other classes and not nerf mages. There are tons of stamina and stat balances that could be made. I and others have listed what changes would make the balance more tolerable and would give a lot more choice and flexibility in how one plays the game. This is not about nerfing mages - just gives melee characters a boost.

Your suggestions and "balance changes" aren't necessairy. You need to snap your head outa the MMO mentality about balance, and again, take into perspective the whole story and reason mages are locked up, why they are hunted down if they go outa control. Why it takes nations sometimes to take down a handful of mages.

You're attempts to try and MMO balance this game can be done very easily if you want. Im fairly sure the mod community is already doing so (along with dozens and dozens of other "personalized" changes the modders want). But to come on here and cry a river about how powerful a mage is makes me think you don't even understand the whole story of the game. And why play a game you don't understand?

If the other classes were as feared and dangerous as mages, well then, it wouldn't be Dragon Age Origin's.

Again, take a moment to read into, or better yet, listen and play out the lore in the game while you are playing it. Maybe then you'll understand why mages are locked up in a tower away from the rest of the common folk in Dragon Age Origin's.

Or better yet! Play the game how you want it! The classes are flexiable enough in this game to play it without mages! Look up the threads of people soloing...SOLOING on nightmare with just rogues.

Repeat after me. This is not an MMO, this is not WoW, there needs to be no pvp balance!

And play the game like you want it. If mods are needed for YOUR personal take on mage balance then make the mod yourself. But don't demand or petition for official changes.

[egervari]

jalford1980 wrote...
The thing about this is its all opinion.  The game does not need rebalancing, its great teh way it is.  I think the biggest problem is that this game should of been PC only.
My reasons:
I get the game on PC, my buddy gets it on console.  We start at the same time.  he is playing a mage, with arcane warrior as his specialty, im playing a warrior, with no specialties(i just got reaver at lvl 14, and still havent got another).
He gets to the circle tower and gets to the room with 5 templars and a demon and cant beat it, and gives up(sense your locked in there, if you didnt keep a saved game outside, your screwed).  I get there and have no problems at all.  I keep playing and i love it, he quits and hates it.  I ask him why, and all the reasons he gives me revolve around how bad the AI is......rogue does **** damage, allister cant hold hate, his arcane warrior goes down to fast, etc...., but as i dug deaper, i realized all his problems could of been fixed had he been playing on PC.

Your personal experiences doesn't matter. One can objectively look at the imbalances and there is enough evidence to suggest that there is some big imbalances. 
It's obvious your friend isn't very good at the game, so his failure doesn't prove anything, nor does your success prove anything.
I don't get what it is with people... but a lot of people seem to think discussing imbalance means that the game is somehow unbeatable. This is not the case.

jalford1980 wrote...
Examples being that he has a bear of a time getting his party into the right positions because he has to physically move them there.  Me, i just zoom out to iso view, and right click each of them into position.  He feels like he has no control over his party, I feel i have total control.  On console, he doesnt have a hot bar, me I have EVERYTHING on my hotbar and dont have to worry about hotkeys.  If someone takes a crit and is about to die like the OP mentioned, i que up my heal, but i dont trust it alone, i make sure i drink a health pot on the low health member as well.

This is clearly a problem with the console, and is why they made AoE spells not have friendly fire, among other things. I'm on PC as well, and obviously this helps. Still, the debate here is not PC vs. console, or is it you vs. your friend.
Even on PC, the problem still persists when you move your melee units into place to get mages. You essentially need CC spells take on the toughest fights in the game. 

jalford1980 wrote...
I could go on and on about why the PC game is so much more enjoyable but i think you get the jest.  Im playing on hard with a reaver warrior as my main, morrigan as a CC/DPS mage, wynne as a healer/buffer, lellianna as a bard(prob going to go ranger or dualist as second choice)/DPS(i changed here to DW daggers and with the right gear and skill choices, she does STUPID single target damage, more than my mage...single target only of course), and having very little difficulty with the game.  It is still challanging, but in a good way.  Its very nice to be able to plan out my battles so tactically, and that is where the console falls sooo short.  Without iso view, and right click party movement, i dont hink i could do that.

Again, the reason you are having little difficulty is that you are using 2 mages. Yes, Rogues do crazy single-target damage - we aren't saying they are a bad class. In my first playthrough, I used a rogue as my main character. The problem is that there is only a few builds that work very well, and almost none of them include using activation abilities. Warriors even have less workable builds (basically tank).

jalford1980 wrote...
I will agree with some people that it sucks that you pretty much feel you have to get 2 mages for the group at first, but after i got a handle on the game, i made a group with only wynne, and had a warrior as my second DPS, and i did ok. I made wynne a healer/CC.  the key is CC, its the CC that makes the mage so valuable, not the DPS.  But if think about it, what party based RPG have you played that doesnt REQUIRE you to have a healer.  And once i got a handle on the game, one mage as a healer/CC is more than enough.

Of course CC is the king in this game. THe problem jalford1980 is that none of this proves that the game is balanced. You are only merely saying you are ABLE to beat the game with such a party. You know what? So was I. The fact that you can do it far more easily on the highest difficulty levels with mages suggest an imbalance. Not only that, the fact that mages can fulfill every class role also proves that they are imbalanced. There is also imbalance in your party selection options - that you essentially need mages. There's also attribute point imbalances, where mages can essentially pump 2 stats (or even just magic - 1 stat) to be amazing. When the imbalance is so great, this limits player choice and causes other classes to be less useful and sometimes just plain terrible.

jalford1980 wrote...
And to the statement about stamina, get more willpower number one, but make sure you equip you warrior with gear that gives a bonus to stamina, with shield wall and threaten running, im only taking up a slither of my stamina.  And with the bard song, mass rejuvinate, and rejuvinate, i never run out until the VERY end of a long fight.  And my rogue can outDPS everyone just standing behind the boss autoattacking due to backstab.

As I said about 20 times already, getting more will power does not help. You get 1 more ability to use after investing a ton of points? WOW... that is so awesome <sarcasm>. In a long battle, this makes no difference. The solution to make skills cost a lot less, and to regen stamina more quickly to even have a hope to comparing with mages.

jalford1980 wrote...
Oh, and i forgot, to the balance issue of mages doing so much...this game is a single player game, balance means NOTHING, nothing at all.  You only need balance in a MP game.

Other people have said this as well, and a game can still be imbalanced if it is single player. Why does the concept of imbalance only have to be with multiplayer games? So if you're playing chess against the computer and get less pieces or your computer opponent gets 2 queens, you think that's balanced?

jalford1980 wrote...
The other thing is that a mage is more than 1 class.  they are more like 5-7 different classes rolled into one.  They can be a paladin, mage, shapeshifter, warlock/summoner, CC/enchanter/buffer/debuffer, it all depends on how you build them.

Which is why there is an imbalance. Thanks for proving our point.

jalford1980 wrote...
The other classes dont have quite as much flexibility, because lore wise it would make sense for them to take on those roles, so they seem inferior.  rogues are close to in all the things they can do, but they cant do any of it near as good.  A bard as some CC and buffing, but not near as much as the mage can get.  And warrior have even less roles, they can get 1 buff and debuff from the champ line, but other than that they are tank or DPS, nothing more.

But they should at least be good at what they do, or at least, be able to do more than just auto-attack for 95% of the battle. Seriously, we aren't asking to gimp mages, we are just asking to improve stamina usage so that they can be interesting and more versatile. This doesn't fight against the lore of the AT ALL. 

Modifié par egervari, 21 novembre 2009 - 05:19 .

[egervari]

Su-do wrote...
Your suggestions and "balance changes" aren't necessairy. You need to snap your head outa the MMO mentality about balance, and again, take into perspective the whole story and reason mages are locked up, why they are hunted down if they go outa control. Why it takes nations sometimes to take down a handful of mages.

I'm not saying to nerf mages. If you bothered to read my suggestions here:http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/66/index/197068/16
You'd see that all my changes do not nerf the mages, and would make rogues and warriors better... meaning you'd actually have a reason to use them instead of a mage.
Also, why do you think I am trying to make this an MMO? I don't even play MMOs.

Su-do wrote...
You're attempts to try and MMO balance this game can be done very easily if you want. Im fairly sure the mod community is already doing so (along with dozens and dozens of other "personalized" changes the modders want). But to come on here and cry a river about how powerful a mage is makes me think you don't even understand the whole story of the game. And why play a game you don't understand?

See, you're assuming that I'm crying a river becasue I can't beat the game without a mage. Who's really getting coloured here? You are assuming I am one kind of gamer - a MMO player who whines about not being able to beat the game. Neither of these things are true at all.

Su-do wrote...
If the other classes were as feared and dangerous as mages, well then, it wouldn't be Dragon Age Origin's.
Again, take a moment to read into, or better yet, listen and play out the lore in the game while you are playing it. Maybe then you'll understand why mages are locked up in a tower away from the rest of the common folk in Dragon Age Origin's.

I have, and I've also read all the info in collector's edition of the prima strategy guide. Good read. I've read everything. Wow, you love making assumptions do you?

Su-do wrote...
Or better yet! Play the game how you want it! The classes are flexiable enough in this game to play it without mages! Look up the threads of people soloing...SOLOING on nightmare with just rogues.

That's problem - we can't play the game how we want. The imbalance of mages limits player choice. The few mages you CAN take often lead to parties that are often similar, which limits variety and replayability.

[egervari]

I'm going to repost this, because it's obvious that it needs to be restated.

The main problem is that the only serious mage to take is morrigan, and to get her buffs to a high level, you have to play in a way that she likes. This takes away some choice from the player.



Wynn is pretty good at what she does, but most of her abilities are taken, and sometimes, I think the path she has taken in the earth and heroic * spells is a waste if you want to do something else with her. You realistically have 4-5 more picks to make, as much the game is played during your mid-teens due to your leveling getting slower. It's crucial to get the "correct" abilities from level 10 to 15 then.



In any case, because Morrigan and Wynne are your two picks, there is a imbalance when it comes to party choice. You are basically forced to put up with up some limiting factors - play a way that morrigan likes to get all of her buffs, or use wynn and get a semi-okay mage. Healing isn't that strong remember - there's a load of fault with it - so she's not going to be a power house.



The other imbalance is that playing as a mage yourself is by far easier than playing as a warrior or rogue. This is evident even in the early areas of the game, and as you get stronger, the disparity only increases. Now with you and morrigan together, it's pretty hard to lose.



To recap about the other imbalance issues: rogue/warrior stamina and fatigue has major problems. Ideally, we need shorter cooldowns, and everything needs to cost level stamina. There needs to be a way to regen it, or a way to not make it that big of a deal. As it stands, mages can just keep casting spells and have no penalty... but warriors/rogues can't do that.



This essentially makes passives and sustained abilities superior to actual activated abilities.



Also mages can take better advance of higher stats - because they only need to pump 2 of them. Rogues needs to pump almost all of them, which means dex won't be as high as a mages magic score. Increasing willpower does not make much difference in someone's stamina anyway. It gives, at most, 1 more ability during a long fight... while mages have infinite more or less.



The reason all of this has something to do with difficulty is that by using 2+ mages, you are essentially beating the game on higher difficulty settings with less skill and effort. Sure, the game can be beaten with 1 mage - provided you took the right skill picks. It is even harder if you just take wynn... because then you gotta wait a really long time to develop some key abilities that she just doesn't have. Again, this corners the player to pick the "correct" skills as well as the correct character (Morrigan is more or less the "staple" mage to take in every playthrough).



The developers, by and large, have already admitted that they play test the game with 2 or 3 mages in their party. They love them to death. It is by no surprise that the game is tuned to have them in your party. Even the development lead of the game runs the game with 3 mages. Go figure.



This isn't a post about whining and complaining - there is a real problem with the balance. Anyone that doesn't see that just isn't thinking clearly. This is not opinion based. If you can't see that, then your reasoning skills are flawed and some emotional part of you is getting in the way.

[Unbroken Lineage]

egervari wrote...
The main problem is that the only serious mage to take is morrigan, and to get her buffs to a high level, you have to play in a way that she likes. This takes away some choice from the player.

Gifts ffs.

Modifié par Unbroken Lineage, 21 novembre 2009 - 05:35 .

[egervari]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

egervari wrote...
The main problem is that the only serious mage to take is morrigan, and to get her buffs to a high level, you have to play in a way that she likes. This takes away some choice from the player.

Gifts ffs.

Of course, but it's far easier to get all of her buffs if you don't ****** her off. I also accidently clicked "Why are you still here?" and got -10 approval. Since I hadn't saved in awhile, I lived with it. It was also very, very early when I got the game, so I wasn't really sure what the approval system was like and how to anticipate it.

Nonetheless, I stopped using Morrigan because I had her at hostile before I even finished up my first major quest out of the 4 main quests.

[Unbroken Lineage]

I'm playing a DW Warrior on Nightmare now after only playing a Mage, and yeah, it feels like a different game, but it is by no means impossible or comparatively unenjoyable. I don't plan on taking Wynn, and I think Morrigan's just going to take the Heal line and Heroic Offense and the rest CC. Along with Alistar/Templar/Champion and Leliana/Bard/Ranger, this looks like the default party.



Am I reloading a lot? Yeah. So? It's a blast.

[egervari]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

I'm playing a DW Warrior on Nightmare now after only playing a Mage, and yeah, it feels like a different game, but it is by no means impossible or comparatively unenjoyable. I don't plan on taking Wynn, and I think Morrigan's just going to take the Heal line and Heroic Offense and the rest CC. Along with Alistar/Templar/Champion and Leliana/Bard/Ranger, this looks like the default party.

Am I reloading a lot? Yeah. So? It's a blast.

I do commend you for at least acknowledging that the imbalance exists.

The main problem is that there isn't a warning sign on character creation that says, "WARNING: Picking a Warrior or Rogue is going to make your game more dfficult. It will also limit who you can take with you on your adventure."

I know that sounds a little absurd, but that's essential the decision that is being made for the player (without their knowledge) when they open their game up, install, create a character and play the game for the first time. 

The real solution is to just give the rogues and warriors a bit more power by fixing their stamina usage. If this was done from the start, I doubt this would have pissed you off, and I doubt you would have realized it.

And, if you did want the game to be harder, there is the difficulty setting... which is what players should change if they want that extra challenge and to reload a whole lot. It should not depend too much on class selections unless the party combinations are absurd.

Modifié par egervari, 21 novembre 2009 - 05:58 .

[5Warlocks]

I love this game to death, but there is a balance issue. While I don't think a three Mage party is likely to be far better off than a two Mage party, your two Mages form the core of your team. In the interest of full disclosure, I have played the game on both Hard and Nightmare. My first playthrough on Hard was with a 2H Warrior, Oghren, Morrigan, and whichever tank whose dialogue I wanted at the time. My second playthrough on Nightmare was with a Mage, Wynne, Alistair, and Sten. I found Nightmare to be significantly easier than Hard due to a combination of knowing the game better and using a second Mage that I built from scratch with optimal spell-picks.

The core issue is that by reducing the number of classes to three but keeping four archetypes, and implementing the spell system the way they did, Bioware has made the Mage class a bit too versatile. For example, the party's healer/support can fulfill her role admirably with only three spells: Heal, Group Heal, Revive, and Haste. This is a total of seven talents. That same Mage can then also become an excellent nuker/CCer. The angst DAO Mages seem to produce is the result of this versatility. A well-built Warrior or Rogue will out-DPS a Mage essentially always by about level 12, especially on Nightmare with the increased resist rate, but it is essentially the Mage doing the "important stuff" that most players will be micromanaging. The imbalance of tactical importance is exacerbated by the fact that Warriors and Rogues are better off using sustained abilities and auto-attacking than using their talents. As has been noted, outside of Sweep and Whirlwind, the dual wield talents are actually a DPS loss even at early levels.

As Rogues and Warriors still fulfill important roles to effective group design, I don't see the game as being grossly imbalanced. The real issue is that anyone basically competent who is struggling on Normal could roll a Mage and play on Hard.

What I don't get is the historical argument some posters are making. At the risk of skirting the ad homenim line, any powergamer of average ability realized that Mages were the most powerful class in all Infinity Engine games by a significant margin, and Clerics were the most powerful class in third edition products generally (as measured by a combination of role effectiveness and versatility). The only real difference is that in DAO, the classically powerful characters were fused into a single class, which has some issues particular to both the system--Arcane Warriors really are just absurd with the current Shimmering Shield implementation--and the campaign--there are only two NPC Mages, and neither is optimized, which means someone interested in building a power party will make the PC a Mage in order to have the best one possible, and use one of two NPCs in every playthrough.

I think this is not as big a deal as some people make it out to be, though. DAO is an excellent game and, after enough time has passed for these things to become common knowledge instead of realizations that bother certain individuals, they will illicit no more angst than BG2's various flavors of Fighter/Mage.

Yes, there is a power party, and yes, it means you will play a Mage. It's not the only way to beat the game, and the other classes are still valuable to the team. AoEing on a Forcefielded tank is a strawman because it is an unnecessarily slow way to win battles, which cannot even always be used effectively, vice high DPS melee which are always effective when supported appropriately.  It is really not that different of a balance paradigm than BG2 save that Mages start off with a bang and it is melee who take awhile to scale.

Brb raccoons.

Modifié par 5Warlocks, 21 novembre 2009 - 10:43 .

[surrealitycheck]

uh oh raccoons

[Unbroken Lineage]

egervari wrote...

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

I'm playing a DW Warrior on Nightmare now after only playing a Mage, and yeah, it feels like a different game, but it is by no means impossible or comparatively unenjoyable. I don't plan on taking Wynn, and I think Morrigan's just going to take the Heal line and Heroic Offense and the rest CC. Along with Alistar/Templar/Champion and Leliana/Bard/Ranger, this looks like the default party.

Am I reloading a lot? Yeah. So? It's a blast.

I do commend you for at least acknowledging that the imbalance exists.

I don't believe I made any such acknowledgment, but you're entitled to your own interpretation I suppose.

[egervari]

By stating that the game is more difficult during a second playthrough with less mages IS an acknowledgement.

[Melichai]

To recap:



The problem:

Rogues/Warriors are inferior in almost every respect to Mages given that their Talents are high cost and their Stamina is slow to recharge, meaning even the most powerful Rogue/Warrior activiated talents get used only a few times in a fight if at all, whereas a Mage has a theoretically infinite amount of AOE/CC/DPS/Tank limited only by cooldown timers. Replacing any given party member with a Mage is a better choice than using a Rogue or Warrior as it provides more CC and more AOE. More CC and more AOE means less damage taken, more enemies killed. If mobs are CCed, killing them is only a matter of time.



The critiques of the above:



1 - Okay, Mages are totally off the hook but:

a) Mages > All per the lore, so roll a Mage, LOL!

I've got a Mage and I rule, so I dont see your problem!

c) Sorry I cant hear you over the sound of how awesome I am!

d) Think of rolling a Warrior or Rogue as a character forming experience. Christ spent 40 days and nights wandering the desert resisting the temptations of the Devil...think of playing a Warrior or Rogue vs. the temptation of a Mage like that.

e) I've got a Mage but I've really gimped the build. Given I have gimped my character, it sucks just as much as a specced out Warrior/Rogue so Ive balanced the game. Gimp your characters too for a better experience.

f) This is'nt a PvP game so it doesnt matter if Warriors and Rogues are relatively worthless. We can all play Mages. LOL!



Common sense solutions:



a) Boost Warrior/Rogue natural Stamina regen. Derive Stamina from Physical stats like Str, Con, Dex as well as Willpower to provide a bigger starting pool.

Provide Stamina potions

c) Reduce activated Talent costs so Warriors and Rogues can do their jobs for more than the first 10-20 seconds. Review cooldown timers on Warrior/Rogues stuns and other Talents.



Leave Mages as is. Nerfs to Mages are not required - they keep their CC/AoE role, all thats required is that Warrior/Rogue talents get used more than once or twice a fight. That alone will make Rogues/Warriors relatively useful versus Mages given their knockdowns/stuns powers on single targets vs. Mages multiple target AOEs. The idea is not to reduce anyones gameplay experience but to offer fresh options for fights and replays rather than the standard Morrigan/Wynne + PC and one other parties.

[tranj84cl]

It depends on how you play. If you're looking to use AoE and Nukes, then yes, you need to use a mage, as they have those talents. Combine that with a tank, and *poof* easy mode. It's not exactly a surprise, as they are easier to build and use. Does make the game unbalanced? Not really, the party make up meets the gaming style.



I've tried using a tank with a dual wield rogue, a rogue archer and a two hander. It works just as well, but requires a different gaming style. The DW focuses on one guy, ripping through them, while the 2H and archer provide CC and spike-assist. These two fill a similar role as 2 mages would, but I need to set up tactics differently and sometimes take a more active role controlling the tank. Leveling the characters is a bit harder, but it seems more rewarding to me, and to each his own.



In short, mages are easier, perhaps even an 'I win' button, but following the lore of the game universe, I can live with that. Warriors and rogues are different classes, and as such, fulfill different roles and are played differently. So what if I can hit 1,2,3,4 and kill things with a mage? They are different. Keep them that way.

[themaxzero]

The main advantage with Warriors/Rogues is that even without clicking special abilities they can kill enemies. Without using spells (CCs and such) a Mage isn't staffing anyone to death. If you buff Warrior/Rogue activated abilities you will have to nerf sustained and/or white damage (normal attacks).



Basically if you want them more involved then rebalance their damage to focus more on activated abilities (like Mages)



For me the biggest issue with Rogues and Warriors is not what they dish out but what they take in. Warriors and Rogues just take to much damage, especially early on. With talents and gear later in the game they do much better (especially Dex Rogues) its just early on they take a pounding. My suggestion is to up the base health of Rogues and Warriors.



The second issue they have is difficulty with stats. A Mage can basically go all Magic and be fine whereas a Warrior who goes all strength will have some issues. My solution would be to tie extra bonus stats to how many talents in a tree. eg for each talent you take in the two hander tree you can 2-3 strength. Maybe Dex for Archery, Constitution for Sword and Board, etc.

[Leather_Rebel90]

Leetabix wrote...

mages are feared becuse of blood magic , not becuse cone of cold is the awsome.

LOL! ^This.

Cone of Cold -> Poor DEEPS -> Shatter = Win.