666 réponses à ce sujet

[phordicus]

it's just faulty AI. when the enemy doesn't do what a smart player would do, blame the AI. one of the ways i made bg2 a non-cheesy tactical nightmare was to treat mages as the devastatingly dangerous targets that they are. when the AI recognizes the value that the player places on a particular character and reacts accordingly, that's when genuine challenges can occur.

[Maankin]

I've read through most of this thread and I partially agree with the topic starter.

Personally I try to use as few lyrium potions as possible (max 1 or 2 in a fight if any at all) and I'm having a blast. I also often see myself using the shapeshifting abilities when I run out of mana (I do play on normal though (PC)).



A possible solution could be to decrease the availability (a slowly replenishing stock) and increase the price of lyrium potions and lyrium dust by a factor (20 - 50?) or give them an extra cumulative negative effect that slowly decreases with time and/or that you can only get rid of at the camp (not by using other items). Lyrium is supposed to be unhealthy.



A second possible option could be to adapt the enemy AI so that enemy archers switch a lot faster to mages. It's very hard to get a heavy spell of when you're being targeted by a few enemy archers and arrows eat through a mage's health pretty fast. Other classes have a lot less problems with a group of archers. A simple way to "nerf" some overpowered spells would then be to add a second or so to their casting time.

[KalDurenik]

From what i can see there are a few problems and things missing... For example...



initative

Feats (with feats for the classes)... (no not specialization)



Initative would help rogues fight faster and hit incoming targets.



Feats would help by allowing each class / type to specialize more... For example a warrior could have:



Improved health

Improved Resistance

Spell Reflect

Reduce fatigue



mages could have things like:

Improved mana reg

Improve dmg / lower CC time



well you get the point. There would be like 10-14 points and they would make alot of feats allowing you to specialize your character in more ways... For example make a warrior with spell reflection (require shield) and high resistance. Or a DW warrior with the ability to move faster and swing the weapons faster...

Oh well maybe they will do something like this in DAO 2

[Shappy1010]

I'm playing with DW Rogue assassin, Healer and 2 tanks and I'm playing on hard. I'm getting tired of all the complaints on difficulty. Sure it's not easy, but I played NWN2 on hardcore-ultra-hard and it was a total joke.

Modifié par Shappy1010, 16 novembre 2009 - 10:58 .

[Ezekiel Stone]

My setup for most of my first playthrough (normal difficulty) was essentially two tanks and two mages:



PC: Champion Warrior, Sword/Shield

Allistair as a tank

Morrigan: Crowd Control with Cone of Cold

Wynne: Healer



If it wasn't for Cone of Cold, I could not see myself making it out of many fights in many areas of the game, especially before myself or Allistair learned shieldwall and mastery. Being a late-game ability means that the tanks WILL get their asses handed to them by any mob with overpower that can resist shield pummel or bash.



Beyond that, before telekinetic weapons and death hex I would get my ass kicked by revenants.After getting both of those skills (in addition to the skill that has the mage mana tap from dead bodies), along with Wynne just sitting back and popping lyrium poultices, I coasted through everywhere in the game. I switched out Morrigan for Leliana and Sten for Allistair just because the gameplay was getting repetitive.



Typical fight through most of the game:

1) Taunt

2) Cone of Cold (Row of enemies frozen)

3) Prison to shatter

4) Precision striking to Shatter

5) Death Hex (move to number three if against a boss)



That gets boring really quickly. At least with Sten and Leliana I sometimes have to worry about someone getting knocked out. Note that I was only able to do this after getting juggernaut armor for sten and massive dragon armor for myself (not to mention dropping serious coin for the best melee weapons in the game).



I'd have to agree with many posters in this thread to the extent that mages are quite overpowered when compared to melee specs. No problems with maintaining mana levels (lyrium and flasks available at the 99 cents store), multiple DPS and CC abilities, combined with a lack of spell interruption after specializing in combat skills. Why the heck wouldn't a player use such abilities when two mages at an encounter in a room can fireblast his party all the way back into reload oblivion?

[Ezekiel Stone]

Accidental double post.

Modifié par Ezekiel Stone, 16 novembre 2009 - 11:23 .

[vorian92]

Absolutely, this game is horrendously imbalanced. 3 mage + tank makes nightmare a joke. A balanced group of tank mage melee rogue, ranged will be taking dirtnaps all day.



Rogues are so broken statwise atm it makes it painful to play, dex is broken in coding so it provides no damage bonus to bows or daggers, which are the rogue bread and butter, meaning it is only really used for attack and ability reqs. Cunning needs 2-3 talents until it actually is useful for something other then persuading people to give you some silver.



2h warriors suck, maybe im playing it wrong but my DW warrior will put a 2h warrior to shame in damage output, and a sword and board warrior is a far more steadfast tank, so what is 2h good for? It could benefit big time from some kind of haste talent or a passive cleave so those slow methodical swings actually, god forbid, be efficient if facing multiple enemies. Also Final Blow is weak, it adds like 50 damage to attack and takes all your stamina, it should deal some outrageous amount of damage given it drains you completely of a resource you can't easily replenish in combat.



Also most melee abilities aren't even worth using, they interrupt your autoattack swing, dont add in elemental damage from enchants/buffs and use too much precious stamina. I have a dagger rogue build using Momentum+Dueling+Tainted Blood and really other then that I might throw a nade or use dirty fighting, everything else just costs stamina to lose dps.



Mages are powerful because they have unlimited resources as long as you are well stocked, and their moves are worthwhile. Melee moves use stamina which is hard to replenish and also break the flow of attacks usually costing DPS which makes moves like Flurry all but worthless.



All in all, buff melee or nerf mages.

[Lotion Soronarr]

If you ask me, the mechanics need some tweaking.

[egervari]

Lequin wrote...

egervari wrote...

Lequin wrote...

haven't been having the major issues you guys have......yea, mages have more to do, and can change the tide of the battle if you micromanage them since they're so versatile compared to the other classes(heal/cc/nuke all in one). but it's not really that big of an issue for me, the other classes are far from useless and have very good traits as well. rogues with traps(rangers with badass pets!!!). warriors with stun/knockdown abilities. mages aren't like mandatory, i cleared the entire dwarf areas with no caster at all. didn't chug as many pots as i thought i'd need (shale is damn good at tanking! especially aoe tanking).

it's a single player game so i don't see why balance is such a huge deal, every class is quite viable, and you have 3 party slots to make up for your shortcomings, so why the class vs class debate?

my char is a 2hander dwarf warrior and he's at 47% of party damage
as for
"
Okay, you have 4 mages out on the battle field. Immediately, they start casting stun effects and cone of cold. This all happens after a cutscene.

What do you do? Go."

never happened to me, but being a dwarf I tend to resist 1/10 of magic spells(awesome btw) and as a 2hander warrior, immune to stuns with indomitable always on. there's 4 targets for the npc mages to aim at. so if i resist CoC, warcry to knock them off their feet, and go smack them? ;p

It's pretty obvious that you haven't got very far, or are not playing the pc version of the game. Do you realize that resist of 1/10 spell, while better than nothing, is pretty low? That still means 9 times out of 10, you will still be hit with the cone of cold or the stun. That means if you die in a fight because of this, you have to reload on average 10 times for it to not disable and kill you. 

When people say, "Wow, the 5% bonus to spell power of arcane mastery is SO AWESOME!", I laugh. 5% of nothing is still nothing. I just bought a magister lord staff, and my heals still suck, although the mana regen on it is noticable.

You mention all the knockdown and stun abilities - these are not very useful against mages that are far, far deep into enemy territory. Once you get far into the game, you'll realize just how crap those abilities are in those situations.

Really, at level 10 or 11, Dragon Age plays like one type of game... and then it totally changes. All those spells and tactics you thought worked well no longer work well anymore. It's purely an anti-mage world at that point, where dwarves have elven mercenaries, and the darkspawn have emissaries, and just about every battle has at least 1 mage, if not more. There are more mages in the game to play against than there are in the actual magi circle.

actually, just past the landsmeet and still with the same tactic i do however use morrigan for CC'ing now and kill enemy mages asap while other stuff are put to sleep. with alistair tanking, juggernaut set, ring of ages, still not a huge issue...

See? you're cc'ing things with morrigan - that's why you are winning. Get rid of the mage and fall back on healing spells. Tell me how well your melee characters work out <sarcasm>.

Better yet, get rid of the melee characters and just use mages. Wow, what do you know, you are winning even faster and better than if you had the melee characters.

Modifié par egervari, 16 novembre 2009 - 12:03 .

[egervari]

Maankin wrote...

I've read through most of this thread and I partially agree with the topic starter.
Personally I try to use as few lyrium potions as possible (max 1 or 2 in a fight if any at all) and I'm having a blast. I also often see myself using the shapeshifting abilities when I run out of mana (I do play on normal though (PC)).

A possible solution could be to decrease the availability (a slowly replenishing stock) and increase the price of lyrium potions and lyrium dust by a factor (20 - 50?) or give them an extra cumulative negative effect that slowly decreases with time and/or that you can only get rid of at the camp (not by using other items). Lyrium is supposed to be unhealthy.

A second possible option could be to adapt the enemy AI so that enemy archers switch a lot faster to mages. It's very hard to get a heavy spell of when you're being targeted by a few enemy archers and arrows eat through a mage's health pretty fast. Other classes have a lot less problems with a group of archers. A simple way to "nerf" some overpowered spells would then be to add a second or so to their casting time.

That's along the idea. A possible better solution that has been suggested is to not nerf the mages, but to just make melee characters more competitive. For example, give them faster stamina regen without godly items, no penalties for fatigue if they have a high strength score to naturally compensate for the massive armor, and stuff like that. And just make skills not cost so much. A think a combination of those changes would go a long way to fixing things.

Honestly, I don't know why I can't use riposte 4 times in a single battle. I should be able to. How exhausting can that move be? Lower the cooldown too. Seriously, mages get these mass paralysis spells... at least gives rogues the ability to disable a bunch of targets one by one. It would still take longer, so the mage is better, but at least it's not totally gimped.

I just bought the staff of the magister lord (or whatever it's called) and got the destructionist's belt. Both items give mana regen during combat, and this almost ensures the mage never runs out of mana. Combine this with pots, and well, warriors just really, really suck.

[Selvec_Darkon]

The game doesn't need much balancing, just remove AW and tweak a few encounters.

[FighterSpirit]

I play on nightmare and game is balanced belive me and why you want to play with 3 mages lol, team is that you have all what you need for diferent task and not only mages, no fun there

[Insect]

If you wish to LARP around in a gimp party of three rogues and a mutt while fawning over Alistair and Morrigan, stay away from the harder difficulties if you're not up to the task,simple as that.

This is purely a single player game, it's your party setup and if your bard is getting bored in nightmare because of Wynn and Morrigan then boot them from the party. No one's watching you play, and no one's forcing you to make an AW/BM; bugs are another story, but to my knowledge there is a hotfix for the DEX bug already.

Besides, if there were to be a balancing patch like WoW does constantly, no one could brag about their grand achievment of finishing the game on NM with aforementioned three rogues and a dog, and we can't have that.

Modifié par Insect, 16 novembre 2009 - 12:31 .

[Shappy1010]

Insect wrote...

If you wish to LARP around in a gimp party of three rogues and a mutt while fawning over Alistair and Morrigan, stay away from the harder difficulties if you're not up to the task,simple as that.

This is purely a single player game, it's your party setup and if your bard is getting bored in nightmare because of Wynn and Morrigan then boot them from the party. No one's watching you play, and no one's forcing you to make an AW/BM; bugs are another story, but to my knowledge there is a hotfix for the DEX bug already.

Besides, if there were to be a balancing patch like WoW does constantly, no one could brag about their grand achievment of finishing the game on NM with aforementioned three rogues and a dog, and we can't have that.

Man I couldn't agree more. This is roleplaying, and even compared to Baldur's Gate and other RPGs I think this is the better balanced and most challenging RPG I've ever played. I can relate to some of the issues such as having 2 spellcasters is probably more powerfull then 2 tanks, but hell why else is it always the evil magic wielding wizards who want to rule and probably can rule the world? And all this complaining about rogues, my DW Rogue Assasin is kicking funking ass, and is by far the most powerfull char in my party. There is nothing sweeter then instantly taking out an enemy spellcaster by using stealth/backstab just when you sent in the rest of your troops.

Modifié par Shappy1010, 16 novembre 2009 - 12:41 .

[Kelston]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

H4rdL0v3 wrote...

btw, for everyone saying they play on hard or nightmare without having to scale the difficulty down, i'd love to see some vids of your big fights on those difficulties, I would not mind seeying how you guys do it, post youtube link or whatever.

Enjoy.  google video search: dragon age nightmare difficulty

How you make all those fights easier:

Put force field on your tank. And then nuke with 3 mages obliterating everything. None of this kiting or special tactics or party management that you would have to do with a standard party.

And looool, no wonder you are so much against mage rebalancing. Both characters you play are mages. And you play the console version which has toned down difficulties.

Modifié par Kelston, 16 novembre 2009 - 12:51 .

[Shappy1010]

Can someone explain to me what Kiting means?

[Ultrazennn]

[/quote]
it's not so much "having problems" with them as there's no point in taking them a long.  Not only do you have to give up an extra healer, a ton of cc and whole lotta super powerful spells so you can have some melee character with bad abilities, that is stuck using stamina.  And even then you're suggesting after giving up an entire mage character and all its abilities you should give up even more mage spell slots just to try and buff up that melee character.  

not to mention that a lot of bosses have all sorts of crazy knockdown abilities and damage auras.
[/quote]

If you are talking purely min/max what's the most efficient way to kill things?  yah, 3 mages that all know mass paralyze, death cloud, blizzard, and inferno.  Juggle the paralyze, cast force field on the bait.   You can play through almost the entire game with none of your party ever taking any damage this way.

I agree that melee characters are a little underwhealming, but they are not so on single target fights at all.  The rest can be modded and it's a single player game, so I'm not too bothered by it.  Now if this was an MMO, that would be a different story.

As far as using slots up on your mages to better your melee characters, if you've never tried having haste, the heroic line, and debuffs on mobs, you might be surprised.  My rogue can kill 3 things by the time a mage could ever hope to get through one, and that's being generous to the mage.  There *is* a way to make melee characters very powerful in this game, and I just get tired of seeing people complain about mages because they are more easy mode, and take less synergy in party spec and tactics to utilize.

A kid with a bazooka is more powerful than an assasin, it doesn't mean the assasin doesn't have any merit or use.

The real issue is CC and melee vulnerability to multiple ranged mobs, but then again, you could always cast heroic aura on your melee character and have them more or less immune to ranged.   There are a lot of ways to skin the cat in this game, and Bioware could patch the game until 2025 and there would always be a best min/max way to play the game, but to me that's not the point.  I enjoy trying to figure out how to make the best synergies out of different combinations of partys.  My next one is going to be 3 archers and a mage ;P  I can already think of a strat for that.  Miasma on the mage, mage is bait, runs in agros everything and cast force field while the tough mob eats 3 lethal shots.

/shrug.

[Kelston]

Shappy1010 wrote...

Can someone explain to me what Kiting means?

You pick a target, apply some disable or handicapping debuff and do damage while he can't and then avoiding him until you disable him again.

For example, pinning shot something, shoot him a bunch, and then dirty fighting stun him and run off shooting him again.

[Unbroken Lineage]

Kelston wrote...

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

H4rdL0v3 wrote...
btw, for everyone saying they play on hard or nightmare without having to scale the difficulty down, i'd love to see some vids of your big fights on those difficulties, I would not mind seeying how you guys do it, post youtube link or whatever.

Enjoy.  google video search: dragon age nightmare difficulty

How you make all those fights easier:

Put force field on your tank. And then nuke with 3 mages obliterating everything. None of this kiting or special tactics or party management that you would have to do with a standard party.

If that's what makes the game enjoyable for you, go for it.  If winning through clever tactics and party management makes the game enjoyable for you, go for it.  If playing on easy with a party of four pot chuggers makes the game enjoyable for you, go for it.  We have these options, and choose accordingly.

Kelston wrote...
And looool, no wonder you are so much against mage rebalancing. Both characters you play are mages. And you play the console version which has toned down difficulties.

I can't delete the first one, but the second one is an Arcane Warrior without the insane auto-win button, and with mostly crowd control and debuffs.  I choose to play it that way.  I could have built a monster and soloed Nightmare, but I didn't.  The fact that I can build a broken Nightmare soloing mage doesn't make me sad or angry.  I simply abstain from doing it.  The fact that other people want to doesn't ruin my day, or my gameplay experience.

I'll play a warrior next.  Would play a rogue but the PS3 doesn't have the dexterity fix yet.  What does this have to do with anything?  There are more than enough people in this thread and others who are playing warriors/rogues with only one mage in the party, who are pwning the game on Hard and Nightmare without trouble.  And I provided the requested video proof that 2-mage parties aren't a requirement in tough battles on Nightmare, let alone Normal.

I'm enjoying this game immensely.  It's a bummer that some people aren't, especially when they have the tools to make the game more enjoyable for themselves, but refuse to use them.

[Endarken]

Ok here is the deal. I have a level 21 melee rogue with daggers.



I turn on Momentum & Dueling.

Half my stamina is now tied up.



I use Dirty Fighting once.

I use whirlwind once.



I'm now out of stamina.



Wynne casts rejuv on me, and then mass rejuv.



I get to use Dirty Fighting one more time.



Guess how many other skills I have - 8+ melee skills I can't use. Maybe if I had 100 willpower. That's insane though.



I guess to me, it seems broken. The only way my character can damage something is through autoattack because I have to save what little stamina I do have for an interrupt when an ogre is pounding someone or a character is being overpowered on the ground.



Mages can pop lyrium potions. I can't do @#%#. It's pretty annoying.



Here is my party build

Me 21 Rogue Dagger user

Wynne healing & earthquake + petrify

Alistair - tank (at least he does well since he just has to have threaten & shield stuff going)

Leliana - Another rogue. I get to use the aoe stun that lasts for 2 seconds. Oh yea and then after she uses that plus 1 more skill she is out of stamina for the rest of the fight.



Here's another thing I don't like - Have a mage character, stand at range and kill the boss. Have a melee character, they are now susceptible to all sorts of aoe melee abilities.

[TileToad]

Insect wrote...
Besides, if there were to be a balancing patch like WoW does constantly, no one could brag about their grand achievment of finishing the game on NM with aforementioned three rogues and a dog, and we can't have that.

Believe it or not, but some of us just want to have fun playing the game, not bragging about their "achievements" to strangers on some forum.

That said, I also feel this game has balancing issues. Apart from the melee characters being way underpowered compared to the magic users, I also believe the difference between easy mode and normal mode is way out of proportion. Easy mode is no challenge at all (thus not an option really) and normal mode is sometimes comparable to nightmare mode. These problems unfortunately take away from the fun of playing a RPG.
I also don't remember BG having this problem.

[Unbroken Lineage]

Mages use Lyrium Potions, Warriors and Rogues use Deep Mushrooms.

You can buy infinite Deep Mushrooms from the mildly insane trader in the Deep Roads.

It seems like many people don't know this.  This will change your life.  Do it.

Modifié par Unbroken Lineage, 16 novembre 2009 - 03:27 .

[Endarken]

I think stamina costs should be reduced by at least 75%. There is already a cooldown timer built in so you can't spam certain abilities.



Then spells like rejuv would actually have a use.



Let's look at your typical rogue - you have 10 active abilities, maybe 14+ with specializations.



How many can you use during a fight? 2, maybe 3.



I guess I know what the first mod will be.

[SaBeRVuLcAn]

Meh. I ran with DPS Warrior(Me)/Shale/Zevran/Morrigan(Healing) throughout the game until the end and did fine. Zevran was..unusable at the end, so I swapped to Alistair and just had basically 2.5 tanks. Spamming Stamina regen on my character and downing Deep Mushrooms like it's nobodies business seemed to work out..mostly. It was rough, but I got it done.

[Endarken]

Here's another thing I noticed, at least on normal difficulty. By level 10 I have the most powerful armor in the game equipped, or have the ability to wear it. Maybe by lvl 12 I guess at the latest. Enemy's skills and their gear goes up drastically but my tank (Alistair) stops scaling past lvl 12 or so once he has his defense abilities. After that point there is really nothing I can do, it seems a bit silly. It's like getting a set of +1 armor in AD&D and that is the best at the time but then suddenly the enemies are using +5 longswords & have +5 plate armor, while you are stuck with +1 armor.



The increase in damage taken just scales dramatically.