666 réponses à ce sujet

[NetBeansAndJava]

chizow wrote...

Endarken wrote...

I think stamina costs should be reduced by at least 75%. There is already a cooldown timer built in so you can't spam certain abilities.

Then spells like rejuv would actually have a use.

Let's look at your typical rogue - you have 10 active abilities, maybe 14+ with specializations.

How many can you use during a fight? 2, maybe 3.

I guess I know what the first mod will be.

This is really one of the key arguments here.  All the mage apologists need not take the imbalance complaints as a personal affront on the OP-ness of their mages, people just want the glaring imbalances and design flaws in the game addressed so that physical damage characters are a viable alternative to mages. 

No one wants mages nerfed because that simply means you will have an even greater reliance on mages than you currently do for healing/CC/AoE/DPS/buff/debuffing/tanking/raising/[everything].  People simply want the clearly underwhelming abilities and game mechanics for melee/physical characters buffed so that melee characters are a more viable alternative to that 2nd or 3rd mage so that its not an exercise in futility and frustration....

I agree with this.

Melee needs a buff to make it an alternative to mages.  The only required melee is a tank... and even then you can get away with no tank if you're clever with terrain and have certain mage specs.

[macayle]

i am rolling with  a tank ( alistar) two rogues Leliana and myself) and a mage ( was morrigan but just picked up wynne instead)  and i am havign a blast

[Endarken]

I've now decided that besides getting strength to 22 for a rogue, every other point should be put into dex. NOT cunning.



Why, do you ask?



Well, with the patch, dex contributes .5 damage per point, and cunning (with lethality) contributes .5.



So if you put 1 point into dex, you get .5 damage increase, attack increase, defense increase.

1 point into cunning - maybe you get some armor piercing but it didn't look that way, and then you get .5 damage if you have lethality.



I would say the per point investment of dex is much better than cunning. With the *spoiler* free cunning you get in mage tower, I would put EVERY point into dex except for the first couple pts in strength.



Since willpower sucks (as we've all come to discover after 8 pages of text here), you might as well just shoot for autoattack damage and active sustain abilities that you can leave on.



I would predict going this route you might have 180ish defense and close to 100 dex with ending gear on.



However on harder modes, you still will not be able to dodge monsters (they will kill you anyways) but your damage and accuracy will be extremely high.



Or you could just get a mage and not worry about any of this.

[SheffSteel]

I think many are missing the point, especially those who say "but it's single player so it doesn't matter". If adding or removing a mage  from the party feels like changing the difficulty level, then yes, the game is unbalanced.

But, don't just whine about problems: propose a solution!

I can think of a couple of potential fixes, a couple of which any self-respecting modders could do...
The one the developers should have done: A Lyrium addiction system that works. Taking lyrium potions infrequently might be okay, but once you start taking one or more every time you get in a fight, expect a serious dependency, declining health and loss of attributes.
The one no one is going to like: Every time a character drinks a lyrium potion, whatever the size, they lose a point of Health, permanently . It's an alternative to the above that is in keeping with the Codex entry on Lyrium and also might stop some of the worst abuses of potions by mages.
The one that needs most effort: Stamina potions! Just like health and lyrium potions, available in multiple sizes, in a cheerful shade of yellow to match the stamina bar, with recipes you can buy from the trader at the camp (flask + deep mushrooms + distillation agent etc.) Finally a level playing field for those who want to use tactical abilities for more than a couple of rounds... and not be a mage.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 16 novembre 2009 - 08:38 .

[NetBeansAndJava]

SheffSteel wrote...

I think many are missing the point, especially those who say "but it's single player so it doesn't matter". If adding or removing a mage  from the party feels like changing the difficulty level, then yes, the game is unbalanced.

But, don't just whine about problems: propose a solution!

I can think of a couple of potential fixes, a couple of which any self-respecting modders could do...
The one the developers should have done: A Lyrium addiction system that works. Taking lyrium potions infrequently might be okay, but once you start taking one or more every time you get in a fight, expect a serious dependency, declining health and loss of attributes.
The one no one is going to like: Every time a character drinks a lyrium potion, whatever the size, they lose a point of Health, permanently . It's an alternative to the above that is in keeping with the Codex entry on Lyrium and also might stop some of the worst abuses of potions by mages.
The one that needs most effort: Stamina potions! Just like health and lyrium potions, available in multiple sizes, in a cheerful shade of yellow to match the stamina bar, with recipes you can buy from the trader at the camp (flask + deep mushrooms + distillation agent etc.) Finally a level playing field for those who want to use tactical abilities for more than a couple of rounds... and not be a mage.

The 2nd option just just flat out terrible.  Props for thinking outside the box, but that would seriously break the game.

I think the lyrium addiction sounds like a fun mechanic.  They did have it implemented at some point, but decided they didn't want "junkies" in your party.  The drug reference could get them in trouble with certain country regulation, etc.

The 3rd option is the best option, I think.  Stamina potions can't be that hard to program.  Personally, I htink this would require less effort than a balanced lyrium addiction.

[Unbroken Lineage]

SheffSteel wrote...
If adding or removing a mage  from the party feels like changing the difficulty level, then yes, the game is unbalanced.

There exist party-based fantasy RPGs where adding or removing a mage from your party does not feel like changing the difficulty level?

[Odd Hermit]

I think they should remove mana as a stat and just balance spells by adding time to CDs, same for stamina with melee abilities. Maybe putting certain spells on linked CDs with other spells might help as well, so you can't simply chain freeze/stun/disorient things.



Alternatively remove lyrium potions and buff in combat mana regen - so your mage doesn't run out entirely but can't constantly chain cast by sucking down pots.

[rikkles]

I am now level 17 and have been experimenting with dual-mage, single-mage, no mage, etc...
I contend that given a high enough level for your people, you can structure them so that you can beat pretty much anything at normal difficulty level with any combo of characters.
For example, one very fun party is my dual-dagger rogue, alistair, leliana and Shale. Use alistair for tank, Shale for long-range destruction (essentially a mage in all but form) and leliana to bother everyone else.
Another fun party is all tanks. Rush in, and then in turn keep stunning and knockdowning where your guys are all immune to that. Loads of fun.
The only tricky one is all rogues... Beyond not being possible (only 2 rogue companions), by the time I got Z he was too far down the dual-wield route to be useful to me.

Modifié par rikkles, 16 novembre 2009 - 09:04 .

[kroosaydur]

mages are way too powerful. the only reason to bring one over a rogue is lockpick and arcane warriors can tank better than warriors. and stamina cost on warrior abilties is way too high and the sustained buffs costs too much. theres even videos on youtube of people playing mages and soloing on hard difficulties.

[Skemte]

..... Hmm the only thing I would recommend is make specialization trees like the warrior and rogue has weapon spec.. Meaning you can only choose one tree be it primal or any other one.. If you branch out you get tremendous penalities..

Only other solution I would recommend would think to increase the mana cost of some spells to compensate for the ridiculously easy to make lyrium potions..

Nerf arcane warriors, buff Shape shifter.. That would be a great start.. Going beyond whether the class is overpowered or not.. Why is it that 2 classes (rogue warrior) are forced to choose a weapon spec.. As wella s forced to take a skill line, combat training.. Its absolutely neccesary because you will gimp your self if you don't..

Mages have none such limitations.. They don't neccesarly need combat training (or at least maxed out) while the other classes need to because it unlocks all the tiers for weapon skills.. Not to mention they can pick in choose from every tree.. Those are teh two things that irk me.. Because a designer should have seen this problem a mile away..

[Unbroken Lineage]

Skemte wrote...

..... Hmm the only thing I would recommend is make specialization trees like the warrior and rogue has weapon spec.. Meaning you can only choose one tree be it primal or any other one.. If you branch out you get tremendous penalities..
Only other solution I would recommend would think to increase the mana cost of some spells to compensate for the ridiculously easy to make lyrium potions..
Nerf arcane warriors, buff Shape shifter.. That would be a great start.. Going beyond whether the class is overpowered or not.. Why is it that 2 classes (rogue warrior) are forced to choose a weapon spec.. As wella s forced to take a skill line, combat training.. Its absolutely neccesary because you will gimp your self if you don't..
Mages have none such limitations.. They don't neccesarly need combat training (or at least maxed out) while the other classes need to because it unlocks all the tiers for weapon skills.. Not to mention they can pick in choose from every tree.. Those are teh two things that irk me.. Because a designer should have seen this problem a mile away..

So you'd be happier if the Mage class was suckier?

[minamber]

Balance is not much of an issue in a single-player game imho.

It's perfectly possible to finish the game on normal without any mages in the party (I did, because I was roleplaying a mage-hating noble). It's just harder, but then what party-based game is not *much* harder without one or two spellcasters in it? Try playing BG 2 or NWN 2 without a mage or a cleric and see how you like it.

Mages are only overpowered if you use some rather cheesy tactics like casting force-field on your tank (it is probably a bug that the tank keeps aggro even then) or chain-chugging mana potions (which considering the cost of pots and the lore entries on lyrium, was probably not intended).



And for all the people complaining about enemy mages being too hard to kill, let me remind them that the templar specialization is there for a reason. Having a whole spec meant to take on one particular type of enemy is a good hint that it's very powerful, don't you think? If enemy mages were weak, that would just make templars useless, which would be another "balance" issue.



I do agree, however, with the people asking for much faster stamina regen. It would make playing warriors and rogues much more fun if you could keep using talents in long fights instead of running out of stamina so quickly. But again, you should compare DA with other party-based RPGs and count yourself lucky that melee classes actually have talents to use. They didn't have any in BG 2 and almost none in NWN.

[Skemte]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Skemte wrote...

..... Hmm the only thing I would recommend is make specialization trees like the warrior and rogue has weapon spec.. Meaning you can only choose one tree be it primal or any other one.. If you branch out you get tremendous penalities..
Only other solution I would recommend would think to increase the mana cost of some spells to compensate for the ridiculously easy to make lyrium potions..
Nerf arcane warriors, buff Shape shifter.. That would be a great start.. Going beyond whether the class is overpowered or not.. Why is it that 2 classes (rogue warrior) are forced to choose a weapon spec.. As wella s forced to take a skill line, combat training.. Its absolutely neccesary because you will gimp your self if you don't..
Mages have none such limitations.. They don't neccesarly need combat training (or at least maxed out) while the other classes need to because it unlocks all the tiers for weapon skills.. Not to mention they can pick in choose from every tree.. Those are teh two things that irk me.. Because a designer should have seen this problem a mile away..

So you'd be happier if the Mage class was suckier?

   Mages clearly have a advantage outside of power wise.. They can choose any spell tree and dabble in others.. Warrior and rogue can certainly not..    Either that or make the warrior and rogue have the same kind of possibilities the mage has with their skill tree's.. But that would be so much more work and balancing.

  I also would argue a reworking on stats for both rogue and warrior.. Unlike mage who really only need to focus on 2 to 3 abilities..  Warriors and rogues for the most part have to focus on a bit more..

Modifié par Skemte, 16 novembre 2009 - 09:37 .

[rikkles]

Just make the mana pots significantly harder to acquire.

That's it.

[Haexpane]

I like the idea of fixing/ditching stamina. I wasted points into Willpower on my tanks only to learn that it was worthless and stamina will drain no matter what.

[egervari]

Endarken wrote...

I've now decided that besides getting strength to 22 for a rogue, every other point should be put into dex. NOT cunning.

Why, do you ask?

Well, with the patch, dex contributes .5 damage per point, and cunning (with lethality) contributes .5.

So if you put 1 point into dex, you get .5 damage increase, attack increase, defense increase.
1 point into cunning - maybe you get some armor piercing but it didn't look that way, and then you get .5 damage if you have lethality.

I would say the per point investment of dex is much better than cunning. With the *spoiler* free cunning you get in mage tower, I would put EVERY point into dex except for the first couple pts in strength.

Since willpower sucks (as we've all come to discover after 8 pages of text here), you might as well just shoot for autoattack damage and active sustain abilities that you can leave on.

I would predict going this route you might have 180ish defense and close to 100 dex with ending gear on.

However on harder modes, you still will not be able to dodge monsters (they will kill you anyways) but your damage and accuracy will be extremely high.

Or you could just get a mage and not worry about any of this.

The reason you would want to put the points in cunning like I suggested earlier is because of specs. A cunning of 30 would deal 10 more damage per hit if your strength was 20, which is nothing to scoff at.

[Skemte]

egervari wrote...

Endarken wrote...

I've now decided that besides getting strength to 22 for a rogue, every other point should be put into dex. NOT cunning.

Why, do you ask?

Well, with the patch, dex contributes .5 damage per point, and cunning (with lethality) contributes .5.

So if you put 1 point into dex, you get .5 damage increase, attack increase, defense increase.
1 point into cunning - maybe you get some armor piercing but it didn't look that way, and then you get .5 damage if you have lethality.

I would say the per point investment of dex is much better than cunning. With the *spoiler* free cunning you get in mage tower, I would put EVERY point into dex except for the first couple pts in strength.

Since willpower sucks (as we've all come to discover after 8 pages of text here), you might as well just shoot for autoattack damage and active sustain abilities that you can leave on.

I would predict going this route you might have 180ish defense and close to 100 dex with ending gear on.

However on harder modes, you still will not be able to dodge monsters (they will kill you anyways) but your damage and accuracy will be extremely high.

Or you could just get a mage and not worry about any of this.

The reason you would want to put the points in cunning like I suggested earlier is because of specs. A cunning of 30 would deal 10 more damage per hit if your strength was 20, which is nothing to scoff at.

 
  Not to mention certain abilities say the bard songs are specifically effected by cunning.

[egervari]

SheffSteel wrote...

I think many are missing the point, especially those who say "but it's single player so it doesn't matter". If adding or removing a mage  from the party feels like changing the difficulty level, then yes, the game is unbalanced.

But, don't just whine about problems: propose a solution!

I can think of a couple of potential fixes, a couple of which any self-respecting modders could do...
The one the developers should have done: A Lyrium addiction system that works. Taking lyrium potions infrequently might be okay, but once you start taking one or more every time you get in a fight, expect a serious dependency, declining health and loss of attributes.
The one no one is going to like: Every time a character drinks a lyrium potion, whatever the size, they lose a point of Health, permanently . It's an alternative to the above that is in keeping with the Codex entry on Lyrium and also might stop some of the worst abuses of potions by mages.
The one that needs most effort: Stamina potions! Just like health and lyrium potions, available in multiple sizes, in a cheerful shade of yellow to match the stamina bar, with recipes you can buy from the trader at the camp (flask + deep mushrooms + distillation agent etc.) Finally a level playing field for those who want to use tactical abilities for more than a couple of rounds... and not be a mage.

It's probably better to leave mages alone and give buffs to warriors and rogues.

For example, strength score could drastically reduce fatigue in heavy armors. This just makes so much damn sense, yet I see 21% fatigue penalties using the armor the game gives me. Sure, some sets get rid of this... but then the mods don't add up to the best mods.

Melee character skills should cost less. A taunt should honestly cost 5 or 10. It's a freaking taunt - how much could it cost? I'm tired of the AI casting some shield bash and then I need to taunt and can't because of no stamina. That's just crap.

Some skills riposte could definitely be given less cooldowns and less stamina. If a mage can take a person out of combat with prison or mass paralyze or cone of cold... why is it so broken that a rogue can stun targets one at a time? It's not broke at all. Masteries should reduce cooldowns and cost if they don't want to make it a blanket reduction for low-level characters, although I think it should be.

Maybe skills like whirlwind or flurry should have the same cooldowns, but the cost is too high. Again, when a mage can do more damage with the same cost... and regen it faster all on their own with better combat regens... and or just pot to get all back... I think it's safe to assume that fixing the cooldowns, stamina cost, etc. would go a long way to fixing the problems without drastically breaking the game.

Also, warriors and rogues need faster in-combat regens.

[Unbroken Lineage]

egervari wrote...
Also, warriors and rogues need faster in-combat regens.

I started this thread with you in mind: Suggestion: Let Auto-attacking Increase Stamina

[cuiwen]

Opcode wrote...
What in the game says you HAVE to use 3 mages because they do better than a one or two mage group?

Why does having the best matter in a game like this?

Who are you competing with?
.

Aye, in my humble opinion that's the thing and the whole of the thing.

It's about personal preference. Preferences which are so sensitive that they are even violated when a theoretical built exists that excels the (subjectively) prefered built. Theoretical as in you do not have to do it, because yes, it is a single player game. If you do not allow such a built, it does not compete with you. But for some it sits in a corner of their mind and nags and taunts them.

It is perfectly ok to say 'I would prefer a setting where class A is more powerful than class B etc or 'class A is equal to class B' or whatever'. But that doesn't imply that the game *needs* balancing. It only means that *your* mileage varies. And differs from what the devs intended for a given game. Of course your pov is valid, it just isn't fact or more logical than any other random pov. It is your personal opinion as a customer, which is as wrong or right as any other. (And no, boards do not represent gaming preferences). Regardless what balance or ranking would result, people could and would argue about the new "balance" with the same fervor and the same justification as you do now. This is not about "fairness", this is about taste. And there is no accounting for taste. And utmost fair might not be utmost tasty, you see?

Now, what I can understand and do agree with the wishlist for more option/talents/abilities in the warrior&rogue tree in dlc/mods/expansion. Varity is always good.
But do remember that the system is young and will need some time for branching out. Remember D&D 1st ed if you can. It was a lot more simple than DA:O.

[Jtrdi]

Since last 10, 15 years someone has been complaining about fighters/mages being overpowered. Kudos to Bioware for not letting Diablo RPG-players-wannabes dictate how the fighters should be be super monsters. It does not make much sense anyway.

There have been many games in the past, where mages were underpowered. The difference between the cases when mage players feel that mages are underpowered and when Diablo players feel that fighters are underpowered is very obvious. Mage players study the game and try to find tactic that works. If the game is harder because of that doesn't make any real difference to us. More challenging - so what? Diablo fighters that are so loud in this topic, on the other hand, they demand mods right away.

If I were fighter fan, I would be happy - I would definitely try to beat the game without a single mage - just to prove it's possible. And I would enjoy it.


You have real RPG players and wannabe RPG players.... whole world of difference...

[Kelston]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...
My PC is a crowd-control/debuff mage only.  I don't really do any damage unless I plink with my sword when someone low is nearby.  And I have Wynn fully specced for healing.  And I have Shale tanking and Zev shredding.

That's your fault for not playing the class to it's utmost. Intentionally handicapping your own party has no bearing on whether or not the class is imbalanced.

If I said I tried to run a tank (that is not Shale) that didn't wear armor or weapons and insisted warriors were ridiculously weak, you'd laugh at the argument. Same goes for your choice of not using mage damage spells. That's not our fault, that's your fault and it doesn't change whether or not mages are powerful.

It is your own choice to not take damage spells with Wynne (which is a lie since she starts with damage spells). There is no game mechanic that says you can't be a healer that happens to be a primalist too.

So grats, straw man fallacy. Can you argue without relying on a logical fallacy?

Jtrdi wrote...
If I were fighter fan, I would be happy - I
would definitely try to beat the game without a single mage - just to
prove it's possible. And I would enjoy it.

You have real RPG players and wannabe RPG players.... whole world of difference...

Your argument is laughably bad. Apparently people are "fake" RPG players because they want a balanced RPG system? Are you really that dumb? You don't get a special prize that says "real RPG player" if you intentionally play the weakest class in an unbalanced ruleset. You get a prize that says "corporate toolbag" or "moronic fanboy".

Modifié par Kelston, 17 novembre 2009 - 04:41 .

[Schyzm]

egervari wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

I think many are missing the point, especially those who say "but it's single player so it doesn't matter". If adding or removing a mage  from the party feels like changing the difficulty level, then yes, the game is unbalanced.

But, don't just whine about problems: propose a solution!

I can think of a couple of potential fixes, a couple of which any self-respecting modders could do...
The one the developers should have done: A Lyrium addiction system that works. Taking lyrium potions infrequently might be okay, but once you start taking one or more every time you get in a fight, expect a serious dependency, declining health and loss of attributes.
The one no one is going to like: Every time a character drinks a lyrium potion, whatever the size, they lose a point of Health, permanently . It's an alternative to the above that is in keeping with the Codex entry on Lyrium and also might stop some of the worst abuses of potions by mages.
The one that needs most effort: Stamina potions! Just like health and lyrium potions, available in multiple sizes, in a cheerful shade of yellow to match the stamina bar, with recipes you can buy from the trader at the camp (flask + deep mushrooms + distillation agent etc.) Finally a level playing field for those who want to use tactical abilities for more than a couple of rounds... and not be a mage.

It's probably better to leave mages alone and give buffs to warriors and rogues.

For example, strength score could drastically reduce fatigue in heavy armors. This just makes so much damn sense, yet I see 21% fatigue penalties using the armor the game gives me. Sure, some sets get rid of this... but then the mods don't add up to the best mods.

Melee character skills should cost less. A taunt should honestly cost 5 or 10. It's a freaking taunt - how much could it cost? I'm tired of the AI casting some shield bash and then I need to taunt and can't because of no stamina. That's just crap.

Some skills riposte could definitely be given less cooldowns and less stamina. If a mage can take a person out of combat with prison or mass paralyze or cone of cold... why is it so broken that a rogue can stun targets one at a time? It's not broke at all. Masteries should reduce cooldowns and cost if they don't want to make it a blanket reduction for low-level characters, although I think it should be.

Maybe skills like whirlwind or flurry should have the same cooldowns, but the cost is too high. Again, when a mage can do more damage with the same cost... and regen it faster all on their own with better combat regens... and or just pot to get all back... I think it's safe to assume that fixing the cooldowns, stamina cost, etc. would go a long way to fixing the problems without drastically breaking the game.

Also, warriors and rogues need faster in-combat regens.

btw tip for warriors and rogues in their current laughably pathetic state.  don't use active abilities.  taunt is an exception, but unless you absolutely need to knock something down just auto attack with them and stack passives.  It's kinda sad, but that's the game bioware designed.

[Jtrdi]

Kelston wrote...
...

Thanks for name calling kid, why am I not surprised?

I do not intentionally play with weakest character, I play with characters that suit my roleplaying experience. That's why I said I would try to play with all physical characters IF I were fan of such role playing.

Sadly, most of the Diablo kids don't even know what role playing is. They see the muscles of the fighters and cry if they have problems taking it to the end.


No changes should be done to the class balance just because some kids think they are playing Doom and don't want to start thinking in a PC game.

Modifié par Jtrdi, 17 novembre 2009 - 04:53 .

[Schyzm]

Jtrdi wrote...

Kelston wrote...
...

Thanks for name calling kid, why am I not surprised?

I do not intentionally play with weakest character, I play with characters that suit my roleplaying experience. That;s why I said I would try to play with all physical characters IF I were fan of such role playing.

Sadly, most of the Diablo kids don't even know what role playing is. They see the muscles of the fighters and cry if they have problems taking it to the end.


No changes should be done to the class balance just because some kids think they are playing Doom and don't want to start think in a PC game.

because obviously doom was a not a pc game....you're making baby jesus cry:(