173 réponses à ce sujet

[egervari]

slimgrin wrote...

Unlike other RPG's that employ limitations on inventory space, I felt DA's was just there because...

So I used a mod to expand the inventory, and I don't think it reduces anything but hassle. In games like Fallout 3, or The Witcher, an endless inventory is indeed cheating. In DA, I'm not so sure.

I agree. In fallout 3 it is annoying, but you have solutions to this problem. You can take perks and boost your strength stat. Once you can carry 200 or 250, it's really not that big of a hassle. You also had companions to carry a lot for you as well, which further gave the player incentives to solve this problem. It was doable.

You could also use extra parts for repairs, which really condensed all the stuff you could pick up. The way each item was priced, you wouldn't really lose much money by repairing them all to full durability.

Also, the limited inventory space makes sense to a game where you are travelling alone in a wasteland. It's still inconvenient mind you, but I can see why it's in the game. It does serve a purpose.

But in DA, it's just annoying. The bags are not nearly an big enough improvement. If I am starting out with 50, then by the end of the game, I should be able to get it to 500 or 1000... but I can't. There's also nothing to do with a big bulky armor that takes up 4 spaces or whatever. What can you do with it? You want to sell this, because it's going to give you a lot of silver or even some gold. Leaving it behind makes no sense - that's end-game gear you are not able to get if you just leave it on the ground :/

[frebu]

The reason is simple, and the same reason its in most games. It adds a extra level of thinking to the game. You have to THINK about what you pick up, what you throw away, and how long you "dungeon dive" before going back to a merchant to sell stuff. Also, carrying 10,000 pounds of trash around would make your considerably less epic, like a hobo coming in from the garbage heap, instead of a hero coming back from a conquest............just my opinion tho.

[egervari]

TJPags wrote...

Hoard what, exactly?  Gems?  Blank Vellum?  silk carpets?  silver chalices?  greater nature balms?

Honestly, when you pick up a weapon or a piece of armor, look at it.  Is it better than what you have?  Yes?  Then use it, and sell what you were using (or give it to another party member, but that's a limited option in DA2).  It's not better than what you have now?  Then sell it.

When you pick up a potion, ask yourself, do I use potions?  No?  Sell it.  Yes?  Keep it.  It's only 1 inventory slot for 99 of them.

Why is this such a problem? 

As I said, you only have like 50 or 60 spaces free, and on a single mission, sometimes you will get past your max even after selling all of your crap. It happens, and it's annoying.

Seriously, the tower at ostagar is a great example. It's happened to me EVERY SINGLE PLAYTHROUGH - the period where you are going to want that money the most!

[egervari]

frebu wrote...

The reason is simple, and the same reason its in most games. It adds a extra level of thinking to the game. You have to THINK about what you pick up, what you throw away, and how long you "dungeon dive" before going back to a merchant to sell stuff. Also, carrying 10,000 pounds of trash around would make your considerably less epic, like a hobo coming in from the garbage heap, instead of a hero coming back from a conquest............just my opinion tho.

I am THINKING - I am thinking if I sell all of this crap, I can get that awesome dagger a little earlier, or I might be able to get 1 more expensive item before I head off and do the final boss. That's what I'm thinking!

Frankly, I am shocked that more people are fighting in favour of how the current system works. This is astonishing to me.

Modifié par egervari, 07 mars 2011 - 05:27 .

[TJPags]

egervari wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Hoard what, exactly?  Gems?  Blank Vellum?  silk carpets?  silver chalices?  greater nature balms?

Honestly, when you pick up a weapon or a piece of armor, look at it.  Is it better than what you have?  Yes?  Then use it, and sell what you were using (or give it to another party member, but that's a limited option in DA2).  It's not better than what you have now?  Then sell it.

When you pick up a potion, ask yourself, do I use potions?  No?  Sell it.  Yes?  Keep it.  It's only 1 inventory slot for 99 of them.

Why is this such a problem? 

As I said, you only have like 50 or 60 spaces free, and on a single mission, sometimes you will get past your max even after selling all of your crap. It happens, and it's annoying.

Seriously, the tower at ostagar is a great example. It's happened to me EVERY SINGLE PLAYTHROUGH - the period where you are going to want that money the most!

You start with, I think, 60 inventory slots.  The guy at Ostagar has a backpack, so right away, you're up to 70.

If you sell the crap you picked up during your Origin at Ostagar - and lets face it, most of it is crap, or becomes crap as you pick up something better - you should have plenty of free space to run through Ostagar.

If anything ever affected my inventory, it was usually those damn gifts, which I gave away at the earliest chance.  Those are useless inventory items, but the fix is simple - give them to the character, or sell them.

Remember that potions and most craft items stack - so 73 lyrium potions is  inventory slot.  What doesn't stack is armor, weapons, rings, etc.  And again - either wear them (which takes them out of your inventory) or sell them.

I just don't see what purpose it serves to carry 4 studded leather gloves in your inventory, if you're already wearing something better.  What do you imagine you're going to do with them?

[sonsonthebia07]

I don't like it. If they were trying to make it logical by having a system more like...a certain amount of weight you could carry, I could see it. But they just say "100 items" or whatever it is now - those items could be 100 couches or 100 Musketeer bars, there's a significant difference. If they have it like this, there's no real reason that I see as to why there is a limitation on max items we can carry. It just gets annoying.

[frebu]

sonsonthebia07 wrote...

I don't like it. If they were trying to make it logical by having a system more like...a certain amount of weight you could carry, I could see it. But they just say "100 items" or whatever it is now - those items could be 100 couches or 100 Musketeer bars, there's a significant difference. If they have it like this, there's no real reason that I see as to why there is a limitation on max items we can carry. It just gets annoying.

Im not saying there are not better systems. Im just saying that the current system is better then no system at all.

[darklordpocky-san]

it's easier to program?

it can't be realism, since the entire game is unrealistic, and carrying 9999 items wouldn't surprise me after conjuring a rain of fire.

[egervari]

If anything ever affected my inventory, it was usually those damn gifts,
which I gave away at the earliest chance.  Those are useless inventory
items, but the fix is simple - give them to the character, or sell them.

Nice logic, but again, this will actually screw you potentially. If you give Leliana all of her gifts without going through the proper conversations, you cannot romance her. This is just one more way in which the game incentivizing you to ditch your items because of the stupid inventory space can actually mess up your game. As if we needed 1 more reason, but we have it.

Modifié par egervari, 07 mars 2011 - 06:03 .

[egervari]

darklordpocky-san wrote...

it's easier to program?

it can't be realism, since the entire game is unrealistic, and carrying 9999 items wouldn't surprise me after conjuring a rain of fire.

250 or 500 would have been fine.

And no, it's not easier/harder to program at all. A growing data structure is actually already baked into the application platform libraries in most cases (they are called collections libraries), so usually the programmers don't even program these. They are not hard to program anyway.

[Exzander1]

I completely, 100% see where egervari is coming from. The more space you have, the more you can pick up on a mission/dungeon, the more you can sell, the more money you make thus faster/easier you can get the end game expensive items. It is a reasonable, logical complaint.

However, I would not want it, simply because I enjoy inventory management. I like going through my inventory, adding up the space, figuring out which item would sell more than others to drop out. I think it gives a little more strategy in the game, and allows for a better pace, a little down-time in between the action/running around.

I can see how egervari is thinking, though, it makes logical sense.

[egervari]

Exzander1 wrote...

I completely, 100% see where egervari is coming from. The more space you have, the more you can pick up on a mission/dungeon, the more you can sell, the more money you make thus faster/easier you can get the end game expensive items. It is a reasonable, logical complaint.

However, I would not want it, simply because I enjoy inventory management. I like going through my inventory, adding up the space, figuring out which item would sell more than others to drop out. I think it gives a little more strategy in the game, and allows for a better pace, a little down-time in between the action/running around.

I can see how egervari is thinking, though, it makes logical sense.

I don't think it's strategical though. In almost all cases, there is nothing stopping you from going out of the dungeon and selling all the junk, and then treking back to where you left off. The only real cost of this is the time it takes to move from your location to the shop and then back to your original location - that's it.

Since this is a non-challenge oriented thing, and is something that anyone can do... why are we making the player do it for? What choice does this really present to the player? None really.

If this could be automated, do you think any player would choose to not sell their crap items? Who on this earth would not sell their crap items if it were automated? You see, it's really a non-choice. It's not strategical at all. The only gap here is time.

The only barrier is, "Do I want to spend 30 minutes mindlessly walking through the levels to sell all of my crap or not?" That's it.

And I am not ashamed to say that I have done this on numerous occassions, because I wanted more money to buy more stuff. To me, all of this walking around and managing my inventory is no fun at all, but the alternative of dropping it on the ground is worse, so I put up with it.

Frankly though, it's something that is so easily fixable - just make the default inventory 4-5x bigger - that I don't see why they won't just do it.

I just don't think a player should have to install a toolset, and install cruddy microsoft sql server lite, just to increase their inventory space. It's crazy, but that's exactly what I did when I first purchased this game. I don't think there was a mod out for this at the time.

And if players are really split on this, just make a configuration setting for it. "More realistic Game?" check or uncheck. It's that's simple. This is no different than setting a difficulty setting. It gives the player more options to play the damn game exactly like they want to. It's so simple to do that their programmers - even their junior interns - could do this in about 1 hour tops.

If people think this is imbalanced, they need to look at more pressing concerns like Blood Magic before complaining about something like this. Blood Wound actually breaks the game. A unlimited inventory hardly breaks the game at all.

Modifié par egervari, 07 mars 2011 - 06:20 .

[Exzander1]

egervari wrote...

Exzander1 wrote...

I completely, 100% see where egervari is coming from. The more space you have, the more you can pick up on a mission/dungeon, the more you can sell, the more money you make thus faster/easier you can get the end game expensive items. It is a reasonable, logical complaint.

However, I would not want it, simply because I enjoy inventory management. I like going through my inventory, adding up the space, figuring out which item would sell more than others to drop out. I think it gives a little more strategy in the game, and allows for a better pace, a little down-time in between the action/running around.

I can see how egervari is thinking, though, it makes logical sense.

I don't think it's strategical though. In almost all cases, there is nothing stopping you from going out of the dungeon and selling all the junk, and then treking back to where you left off. The only real cost of this is the time it takes to move from your location to the shop and then back to your original location - that's it.

Since this is a non-challenge oriented thing, and is something that anyone can do... why are we making the player do it for? What choice does this really present to the player? None really.

The only barrier is, "Do I want to spend 30 minutes mindlessly walking through the levels to sell all of my crap or not?" That's it.

And I am not ashamed to say that I have done this on numerous occassions, because I wanted more money to buy more stuff. To me, all of this walking around and managing my inventory is no fun at all, but the alternative of dropping it on the ground is worse, so I put up with it.

Frankly though, it's something that is so easily fixable - just make the default inventory 4-5x bigger - that I don't see why they won't just do it.

I just don't think a player should have to install a toolset, and install cruddy microsoft sql server lite, just to increase their inventory space. It's crazy, but that's exactly what I did when I first purchased this game. I don't think there was a mod out for this at the time.

And if players are really split on this, just make a configuration setting for it. "More realistic Game?" check or uncheck. It's that's simple.

As I said, I understand your point a view and can understand exactly what you mean, so please don't take it as me shooting your idea down or saying it's dumb - cause it's not.

The strategy comes within figuring out which item to throw back. "Which item sells more" - "this item is heavy, I can pick up 1 of these, or 4 of these, but which two options would grant me the most gold when compared to how much space I have left?". These decisions normally take only 5-10 seconds to figure out, but I like them. I gives me something else to do, and the more things to do = the more fun for me.

Obviously, as you might notice, I don't run back ever. It takes up way too much time and is simply not worth it for me, which is why I enjoy the whole strategy of inventory managment during a quest/zone.

Putting an option for toggling the inventory space is a good idea, I highly doubt they would implement it, but it's a good idea nontheless.

Modifié par Exzander1, 07 mars 2011 - 06:22 .

[ozenglish]

My take on this is.. Say chain mail, in say the 1200's weighed in at around 45 - 55 lbs. then, you would want the average say, norse helmet around 5 - 7lbs, and the average kite shield ranging in at 10lbs. a long sword averaged around 5 lbs.. so at top end with boots.. around 77lbs of kit. Then you might have had a ranged weapon, so lets take a crossbow averaging around 10 lbs and say 20 bolts so around 2lbs.. that gives another 12lbs, say 89lbs in total. Plus food, medicines and water.. around 5 - 7 lbs. so nearly 100lbs of equpment.. I dunno about you, but after carring that around, and not having a horse and cart to carry all that in, I think if I was perfectly healthy and combat ready, could probably carry another 60 on top of that in short periods of time.. so yeah, I can see why there is a item limit... let alone for the computer issues. LOL.

[themaxzero]

Put it as an option in the options menu. Problem solved. Set it character creation and it cannot be changed.

Modifié par themaxzero, 07 mars 2011 - 06:27 .

[rma2110]

Inventory management annoys me too. Why can't I just load up the dog with my junk and send it off to the store? That would be hilarious.

At least now I only have Hawke to worry abut, so inventory should be much easier to manage.

[egervari]

Exzander1 wrote...

As I said, I understand your point a view and can understand exactly what you mean, so please don't take it as me shooting your idea down or saying it's dumb - cause it's not.

The strategy comes within figuring out which item to throw back. "Which item sells more" - "this item is heavy, I can pick up 1 of these, or 4 of these, but which two options would grant me the most gold when compared to how much space I have left?". These decisions normally take only 5-10 seconds to figure out, but I like them. I gives me something else to do, and the more things to do = the more fun for me.

Obviously, as you might notice, I don't run back ever. It takes up way too much time and is simply not worth it for me, which is why I enjoy the whole strategy of inventory managment during a quest/zone.

Putting an option for toggling the inventory space is a good idea, I highly doubt they would implement it, but it's a good idea nontheless.

In terms of game design, this is a non-choice. A real choice is one that has pros/cons in terms of game consequences. With respect to game consequences, the correct decision is ALWAYS to sell the useless crap. ALWAYS. Sure, your personal time factors into it, but that shouldn't matter with respect to the game. Does making the same chess move in 1 second or 1 minute or 1 hour make the move stronger the longer it takes to make it? Of course not. The consequences are the same regardless. The choice should be "Where do I move this piece and what piece do I move?"

In Starcraft, you buy one building, build a unit, or make a worker. Or you can stock pile the money to afford something more expensive down the line. There are real pros and cons to these choices.

The whole inventory management doesn't contain any of these kinds of tradeoffs. The only trade off is human time - nothing to do with the game. If you asked every player would they sell the stuff if they could, the answer would be yes.

With respect to game design, if the player is going to choose only 1 option 99-100% of the time, the game designer should design the game so that this option is always done for the player automatically. This is very, very, very, very good approach to game design. Game designers need to distill their game down to the most interesting mechanics. All the trivial one-sided decisions that can be automated actually should be.

[sonofalich]

max inventory space to appease the hardcore rpg players.

[Exzander1]

egervari wrote...

Exzander1 wrote...

As I said, I understand your point a view and can understand exactly what you mean, so please don't take it as me shooting your idea down or saying it's dumb - cause it's not.

The strategy comes within figuring out which item to throw back. "Which item sells more" - "this item is heavy, I can pick up 1 of these, or 4 of these, but which two options would grant me the most gold when compared to how much space I have left?". These decisions normally take only 5-10 seconds to figure out, but I like them. I gives me something else to do, and the more things to do = the more fun for me.

Obviously, as you might notice, I don't run back ever. It takes up way too much time and is simply not worth it for me, which is why I enjoy the whole strategy of inventory managment during a quest/zone.

Putting an option for toggling the inventory space is a good idea, I highly doubt they would implement it, but it's a good idea nontheless.

In terms of game design, this is a non-choice. A real choice is one that has pros/cons in terms of game consequences. With respect to game consequences, the correct decision is ALWAYS to sell the useless crap. ALWAYS. Sure, your personal time factors into it, but that shouldn't matter with respect to the game. Does making the same chess move in 1 second or 1 minute or 1 hour make the move stronger the longer it takes to make it? Of course not. The consequences are the same regardless. The choice should be "Where do I move this piece and what piece do I move?"

In Starcraft, you buy one building, build a unit, or make a worker. Or you can stock pile the money to afford something more expensive down the line. There are real pros and cons to these choices.

The whole inventory management doesn't contain any of these kinds of tradeoffs. The only trade off is human time - nothing to do with the game. If you asked every player would they sell the stuff if they could, the answer would be yes.

With respect to game design, if the player is going to choose only 1 option 99-100% of the time, the game designer should design the game so that this option is always done for the player automatically. This is very, very, very, very good approach to game design. Game designers need to distill their game down to the most interesting mechanics. All the trivial one-sided decisions that can be automated actually should be.

Well, all I can say is that I understand what you are saying, but would not want it in the game.

It would be great to have an option for people like you who would want to turn on a larger space, that should be there. However, if say there were a poll up, I would choose "no, keep a limited inventory" - because for my own personal taste, I like inventory management. I enjoy every aspect of it, it adds another layer to the game.

As you said, it is not an in depth layer like there is in SC2, however, there is a pro/con system, albiet minor. The pro/con of which item to keep and which item to take, results in how much gold you gain from the dungeon at hand. If I see say 10 items in a chest, and I have 5 spots left in my inventory,  I have to think logcially with video game knowledge "what would sell more, the 2 chest plates and the 3 leather gloves, or the 1 chest plate, 2 leg pieces, and 2 leather gloves". Now, obviously this is not a huge pro/con system, but there is a pro in critically thinking which items would sell more, and which ones to leave behind. I like this system, it gives me another layer of thinking, another layer of management - I like it.

Obviously some do not, and some do, which is why I completely agree that there should be atoggle option to toggle a larger inventory space.

I see where you are coming from, I completely understand the logic and reason behind your point of view - I still am against it, however, but do wish there was a toggle way for you and others who wish for a larger space as well to turn on.

[ozenglish]

rma2110 wrote...

Inventory management annoys me too. Why can't I just load up the dog with my junk and send it off to the store? That would be hilarious.

At least now I only have Hawke to worry abut, so inventory should be much easier to manage.

Well a Mabari is as smart as the average tax collector, so they might even get you a good price. If you tell it not to accept anything less than 50% of the market value, growl, then bite the leg, you should do well for yourself.. now, where is that Mabari of mine???

[ozenglish]

Damn it, double post, my bad folks..

Modifié par ozenglish, 07 mars 2011 - 06:42 .

[Brin08]

I never really had a problem with the backpacks, except in the Deep Roads and the werewolf hideout. For those I had to stop halfway through the mission in order to return to the nearest town to sell stuff.

And I usually sell everything that I don't need. I find that I like gold more than I like some pretty trinket that I will probably never use.

[egervari]

Exzander1 wrote...

As you said, it is not an in depth layer like there is in SC2, however, there is a pro/con system, albiet minor. The pro/con of which item to keep and which item to take, results in how much gold you gain from the dungeon at hand. If I see say 10 items in a chest, and I have 5 spots left in my inventory,  I have to think logcially with video game knowledge "what would sell more, the 2 chest plates and the 3 leather gloves, or the 1 chest plate, 2 leg pieces, and 2 leather gloves". Now, obviously this is not a huge pro/con system, but there is a pro in critically thinking which items would sell more, and which ones to leave behind. I like this system, it gives me another layer of thinking, another layer of management - I like it.

That's not true though. If the game did not give the player an oppurtunity to ever go back to town, then I would agree with you. But the truth is, in most areas of the game, you have a chance to spend however much time as you would like to go in and out of a dungeon/location to sell off all of your junk. Since the player has this option, they would essentially be stupid to throw any of the junk away, as selling it is the superior choice - it has a + benefit to the player all the time.

Since this choice is actually a non-choice, it should either be automated, or designed in such a way to make the choice non-existant, or designed to make it more interesting.

In this case, they could remove junk items, and then make the costs of the uber-gear to be a lot cheaper. Problem solved.

Or, they could increase the inventory space.

Or, they could make it so you could not go back to town. I would hate this, but then hopefully they would balance the game so that you didn't have to sell your junk as much as you do in the current build of the game.

Or, you could devise a totally different system of economics. Like in etrian odyssey, you pick up lots of crap, but it's all stuff you can use to craft your gear. Maybe letting the player craft in a dungeon isn't such a bad thing either. There are lots of ways to make things more interesting.

Remember in old final fantasy games? We never had inventory problems. All the loot you wanted was either in shops, or located in specifically-located chests. Maybe that design was too simple, but you know what? It works.

I understand that you get these points, but I hope I'm getting through that this choice, as it is currently built, is actually not a good mechanic. It presents 1 superior choice and lots of horrible choices. It's not a real choice.

Modifié par egervari, 07 mars 2011 - 06:52 .

[Reptillius]

Exzander1 wrote...

I completely, 100% see where egervari is coming from. The more space you have, the more you can pick up on a mission/dungeon, the more you can sell, the more money you make thus faster/easier you can get the end game expensive items. It is a reasonable, logical complaint.

However, I would not want it, simply because I enjoy inventory management. I like going through my inventory, adding up the space, figuring out which item would sell more than others to drop out. I think it gives a little more strategy in the game, and allows for a better pace, a little down-time in between the action/running around.

I can see how egervari is thinking, though, it makes logical sense.

It's only logical if it's truely a problem.  I've only ever had Problems in 2 spots... In the Ostagar section of the prologue because I'd forget to sell before going back to Duncan or didn't have money to buy the backpack from my screw up.  And if I went into the Ashes quest right at the beginning of the game because that is a long straight through dungeon.

Otherwise I sold pretty much any stuff i wasn't saving to use later and when I got to use it I sold the old stuff or tossed it on a backup character in preparation for the gate fight. So I generally went into most dungeons with like 70 of the 125 bag slots you could have.

So no. unless your a hoarder that can't let go of anything that isn't complete garbage then it wasn't a problem to speak of.  And putting off the Ashes Quest isn't that odd and didn't have to be done that long really...  And if stopping to sell was really a problem considering you didn't really have to run back to a city and could just camp and then move on to your destination. The question becomes why are you hoarding 60 or so slots worth of stuff?

Even more illogical is if your picking up all that random crap to sell then why are you keeping it to go into the next dungeon because as long as it's in your inventory it's not making you money. That's as bad as the fact that my garage is filled with crap because my father insists that he has uses for it but never uses it.  next time I get the chance some of that stuff is so gone and the stuff in your inventory should be going when you get the chance too.