1198 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

iakus wrote...

2 the meeting on Horizon

He explained it. Ashley telling you to take a hike isn't a plot hole. It's character development. Her not being taken in by the Cerberus Killer Kittens Collectors isn't a plot hole, because they weren't there for her in the first place.

Let it go, Iakus, really. You make a lot of good points re: ME2 plot and how it's not very good, but this here is nothing more than a personal grudge, that the plot didn't go in the direction you'd like.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 mars 2011 - 03:51 .

[Whatever42]

squee913 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

I find it a little strange that the only thing people are arguing over is Shep's death and resurrection. Should this suggest that the only faults anyone finds with my videos are those two arguments? I was hoping to debate different aspects of the game, not just the opening scene. I would argue that one plot point (good or bad) does not make a bad game, and yet that is what 90% of the people on this thread are complaining about.

It's the strongest plot hole they have. Just make part II and we'll move on.

Part 2 was up sunday my friend. I beleive someone already posted the link but here it is again if ya need it

Very nice! Although I can give you his pat answer for many of your points. If something, anything, including Shepard not explicitly pooping, is a plothole.  If the game didn't explictly tell you that Cerberus sent satalites then they didn't. If Cerberus didn't tell you why they didn't try to mine the relay (drift) its because they didn't even think of it. Seriously. He argued like that.

BTW, the kitties with guns was cool.

[squee913]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

iakus wrote...

2 the meeting on Horizon

He explained it. Ashley telling you to take a hike isn't a plot hole. It's character development. Her not being taken in by the Cerberus Killer Kittens Collectors isn't a plot hole, because they weren't there for her in the first place.

Let it go, Iakus, really. You make a lot of good points re: ME2 plot and how it's not very good, but this here is nothing more than a personal grudge, that the plot didn't go in the direction you'd like.

this.

If my fiance, whom I trust completely, apparently died and came back resurrected by a terrorist group, I would be more than a little suspicious, and I doubt I would forsake everything I was doing to run off with her before I had proof that she was still her. Now, others might react differently, (i.e. Tali believing in Shep despite who brought him back) but that is the point. Different people react in different ways. I may have been upset that the VS was so suspicious, but they had every right to be, and it fit their characters perfectly. Not Ash and Kadian were military through and through. They would not throw all of that away because someone who may be Shepard wants them to work for a terrorist organization. 

[JKoopman]

squee913 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

iakus wrote...

2 the meeting on Horizon

He explained it. Ashley telling you to take a hike isn't a plot hole. It's character development. Her not being taken in by the Cerberus Killer Kittens Collectors isn't a plot hole, because they weren't there for her in the first place.

Let it go, Iakus, really. You make a lot of good points re: ME2 plot and how it's not very good, but this here is nothing more than a personal grudge, that the plot didn't go in the direction you'd like.

this.

If my fiance, whom I trust completely, apparently died and came back resurrected by a terrorist group, I would be more than a little suspicious, and I doubt I would forsake everything I was doing to run off with her before I had proof that she was still her. Now, others might react differently, (i.e. Tali believing in Shep despite who brought him back) but that is the point. Different people react in different ways. I may have been upset that the VS was so suspicious, but they had every right to be, and it fit their characters perfectly. Not Ash and Kadian were military through and through. They would not throw all of that away because someone who may be Shepard wants them to work for a terrorist organization. 

I don't recall anyone complaining that Ash/Kaidan don't join Cerberus, least of all since Shepard wasn't asking them to join Cerberus; he was asking them to join him. But more to the point, what angers most people about the Horizon encounter is that the person who supposedly loved you in ME1, who you rescued from Virmire and who witnessed you not only stop the Reapers and save the galaxy in ME1 when no one else would believe in you but who has personally borne witness not 5 minutes prior to Shepard defending the Horizon colony against what were obviously Collectors... would turn around and not even give you the benefit of doubt let alone 10 minutes to try and explain yourself, and would actually try to blame the attack on Cerberus before calling you a traitor and storming off.

That most certainly does not "fit their character(s) perfectly" unless their character is that of a bi-polar amnesiatic retard. And no, sending you a half-assed email apology doesn't vindicate them.

Just as the whole death and resurrection angle was created for no other reason than to offer an in-story explanation for why Shepard's level and abilities were reset from ME1, the Horizon encounter was scripted the way it was for no other reason than to afford the player the opportunity to explore a relationship with one of the new LIs in ME2, character consistency be damned. As far as story goes, it's completely nonsensical.

Modifié par JKoopman, 17 mars 2011 - 05:29 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

squee913 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

I find it a little strange that the only thing people are arguing over is Shep's death and resurrection. Should this suggest that the only faults anyone finds with my videos are those two arguments? I was hoping to debate different aspects of the game, not just the opening scene. I would argue that one plot point (good or bad) does not make a bad game, and yet that is what 90% of the people on this thread are complaining about.

It's the strongest plot hole they have. Just make part II and we'll move on.

Part 2 was up sunday my friend. I beleive someone already posted the link but here it is again if ya need it

A couple of addendums to your points.

1. The collectors chose Horizon because Ash/Kaidan was there, They are only interrested in Ash/Kaidan because of their connection to Shepard, So it would actually make sense for the collectors to not take Ash/kaidan with them since if Horizon was a failure they could use Ash/Kaidan again as bait.

2. About planting bombs on the collector ship : well it's a ship filled with collectors...and thusand of people taken from colonies and they belive it's dead in space, I can understand the reasoning in getting in there with a small team and simply look around to see what they can find out before going to extremes like making it a powderkeg (sure we know it was all a trap but Shepard didn't), The only fault i see in that mission is that Shepard takes no steps to assutain the condition of the abducted collonists after all it is one of the main reasosns as to why they are there (just a short scene of Shep and co checking out a pod would have been nice).

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Who is smudboy?

[squee913]

JKoopman wrote...

I don't recall anyone complaining that Ash/Kaidan don't join Cerberus, least of all since Shepard wasn't asking them to join Cerberus; he was asking them to join him. But more to the point, what angers most people about the Horizon encounter is that the person who supposedly loved you in ME1, who you rescued from Virmire and who witnessed you not only stop the Reapers and save the galaxy in ME1 when no one else would believe in you but who has personally borne witness not 5 minutes prior to Shepard defending the Horizon colony against what were obviously Collectors... would turn around and not even give you the benefit of doubt let alone 10 minutes to try and explain yourself, and would actually try to blame the attack on Cerberus before calling you a traitor and storming off.

That most certainly does not "fit their character(s) perfectly" unless their character is that of a bi-polar amnesiatic retard. And no, sending you a half-assed email apology doesn't vindicate them.

Just as the whole death and resurrection angle was created for no other reason than to offer an in-story explanation for why Shepard's level and abilities were reset from ME1, the Horizon encounter was scripted the way it was for no other reason than to afford the player the opportunity to explore a relationship with one of the new LIs in ME2. As far as story goes, it's completely nonsensical.

First, they quite clearly state that they think shepard is working for Cerberus. If they think Shepard is working for Cerberus and Shepard asks them to join him/her, than the VS is going to think Shep is asking them to work for Cerberus. 

Second, they were obviously collectors to us, but why do you think the VS would even know what a collector is? The collectors were not very well known and there is no reason to believe that the VS knew that's what they were. Considering that the VS spent a good deal of time shutting down Cerberus bases that were trying to create monsters, I don't feel it is a great leap for them to think these bug like aliens might just be another Cerberus creation. 

Third: People are to harsh on the VS because they know more about what is going on. All the VS knows is that a hero/lover they thought was dead pops up out of no where 2 years later and admit that they were rebuilt and are work with (I said with, not for; but that technicality would not mean much) Cerberus. And yet people are shocked that the VS does not abandon their post, responsibilities, and oath to the Alliance to run off with Shepard. Even Tali, who adores Shepard, does not join him until her mission was completed.

Fourth: Could the VS have handled the situation better? Of course they could have. They could have been more understanding or have been less of a jerk. but that is true for most people in the world. Can you guys really say that you never acted like a jerk to a loved one? There was never a conversation that you had where you could have given them more of a chance to explain themselves, but for what ever reason, you didn't? The VS just got frozen by a bug, found out half the colony is gone and that their hero/lover is working with a terrorist group. That is a lot to absorb. Their emotions were probably a mess at the moment and they acted like a jerk. This is not a plot hole, or bad writing (at least in my opinion). It's human nature

Modifié par squee913, 17 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[squee913]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

A couple of addendums to your points.

1. The collectors chose Horizon because Ash/Kaidan was there, They are only interrested in Ash/Kaidan because of their connection to Shepard, So it would actually make sense for the collectors to not take Ash/kaidan with them since if Horizon was a failure they could use Ash/Kaidan again as bait.

2. About planting bombs on the collector ship : well it's a ship filled with collectors...and thusand of people taken from colonies and they belive it's dead in space, I can understand the reasoning in getting in there with a small team and simply look around to see what they can find out before going to extremes like making it a powderkeg (sure we know it was all a trap but Shepard didn't), The only fault i see in that mission is that Shepard takes no steps to assutain the condition of the abducted collonists after all it is one of the main reasosns as to why they are there (just a short scene of Shep and co checking out a pod would have been nice).

1. I agree that is a possibility and almost talked about it, but I figured people would say that the argument had no bases since a collector never gave a monologue stating that fact. I figured the common sense reason as to why she might not have been found were harder to argue against.
2. That is also true. If Shep was concerned about the colonist in the ship, he would not have tried to blow it to hell. I had not thought about that 

[Lunatic LK47]

squee913 wrote...

Third: People are to harsh on the VS because they know more about what is going on. All the VS knows is that a hero/lover they thought was dead pops up out of no where 2 years later and admit that they were rebuilt and are work with (I said with, not for; but that technicality would not mean much) Cerberus. And yet people are shocked that the VS does not abandon their post, responsibilities, and oath to the Alliance to run off with Shepard. Even Tali, who adores Shepard, does not join him until her mission was completed.

Except the VS commited MUTINY with Anderson's backing just so the Normandy could hit Ilos. How the VS and Shepard conveniently forgot that little tidbit screamed bad writing. Even Shepard's responses screamed bad writing and was a missed opportunity with the data import (i.e. "I didn't forget about Cerberus's idiocy. I'll deal with them after the Collectors are taken care of" would have been fine.)  All it did was give us a complete excuse to go for the ME2 romances instead with a one-track mind.

Fourth: Could the VS have handled the situation better? Of course they could have. They could have been more understanding or have been less of a jerk.

Bolded for emphasis. This is what most of the VS fans wanted, and I'm one of those people.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 17 mars 2011 - 06:10 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

Well i think most people are disappointed in the VS encounter for simple reasons, It's not really about the motives of the VS survivor because most people can understand that, it's more that the way it was handled that was bad, The writing could use improvements and ..it seems so short.

VS survivor : "Hi Shepard you're a God, you joined Cerberus how could you!".

Shep :"I should go".

There done ..now on to the next mission and shot up some mercenaries.

And players are just sitting there : "wait that was all?"

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 17 mars 2011 - 06:19 .

[Lunatic LK47]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Well i think most people are disappointed in the VS encounter for simple reasons, It's not really about the motives of the VS survivor because most people can understand that, it's more that the way it was handled that was bad, The writing could use improvements and ..it seems so short.

VS survivor : "Hi Shepard you're a God, you joined Cerberus how could you!".

Shep :"I should go".

There done ..now on to the next mission and shot up some mercenaries.

And players are just sitting there : "wait that was all?"

Quick, someone make a parody video using this scene! 

[Zulu_DFA]

squee913 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I don't recall anyone complaining that Ash/Kaidan don't join Cerberus, least of all since Shepard wasn't asking them to join Cerberus; he was asking them to join him. But more to the point, what angers most people about the Horizon encounter is that the person who supposedly loved you in ME1, who you rescued from Virmire and who witnessed you not only stop the Reapers and save the galaxy in ME1 when no one else would believe in you but who has personally borne witness not 5 minutes prior to Shepard defending the Horizon colony against what were obviously Collectors... would turn around and not even give you the benefit of doubt let alone 10 minutes to try and explain yourself, and would actually try to blame the attack on Cerberus before calling you a traitor and storming off.

That most certainly does not "fit their character(s) perfectly" unless their character is that of a bi-polar amnesiatic retard. And no, sending you a half-assed email apology doesn't vindicate them.

Just as the whole death and resurrection angle was created for no other reason than to offer an in-story explanation for why Shepard's level and abilities were reset from ME1, the Horizon encounter was scripted the way it was for no other reason than to afford the player the opportunity to explore a relationship with one of the new LIs in ME2. As far as story goes, it's completely nonsensical.

First, they quite clearly state that they think shepard is working for Cerberus. If they think Shepard is working for Cerberus and Shepard asks them to join him/her, than the VS is going to think Shep is asking them to work for Cerberus. 

Second, they were obviously collectors to us, but why do you think the VS would even know what a collector is? The collectors were not very well known and there is no reason to believe that the VS knew that's what they were. Considering that the VS spent a good deal of time shutting down Cerberus bases that were trying to create monsters, I don't feel it is a great leap for them to think these bug like aliens might just be another Cerberus creation. 

Third: People are to harsh on the VS because they know more about what is going on. All the VS knows is that a hero/lover they thought was dead pops up out of no where 2 years later and admit that they were rebuilt and are work with (I said with, not for; but that technicality would not mean much) Cerberus. And yet people are shocked that the VS does not abandon their post, responsibilities, and oath to the Alliance to run off with Shepard. Even Tali, who adores Shepard, does not join him until her mission was completed.

Fourth: Could the VS have handled the situation better? Of course they could have. They could have been more understanding or have been less of a jerk. but that is true for most people in the world. Can you guys really say that you never acted like a jerk to a loved one? There was never a conversation that you had where you could have given them more of a chance to explain themselves, but for what ever reason, you didn't? The VS just got frozen by a bug, found out half the colony is gone and that their hero/lover is working with a terrorist group. That is a lot to absorb. Their emotions were probably a mess at the moment and they acted like a jerk. This is not a plot hole, or bad writing (at least in my opinion). It's human nature

The funniest thing that eludes most people is that the VS was actually right: Cerberus WAS behind the attack on Horizon. TIM practically admitted himself at the debriefing, that he had personally drawn a fat red crossed circle on the Galaxy map around Horizon, and PM'd the Shadow Broker: "Shep's gonna be there at 12 o'clock, Sunday / Take care / Your secret friend in Cerberus."

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

squee913 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I don't recall anyone complaining that Ash/Kaidan don't join Cerberus, least of all since Shepard wasn't asking them to join Cerberus; he was asking them to join him. But more to the point, what angers most people about the Horizon encounter is that the person who supposedly loved you in ME1, who you rescued from Virmire and who witnessed you not only stop the Reapers and save the galaxy in ME1 when no one else would believe in you but who has personally borne witness not 5 minutes prior to Shepard defending the Horizon colony against what were obviously Collectors... would turn around and not even give you the benefit of doubt let alone 10 minutes to try and explain yourself, and would actually try to blame the attack on Cerberus before calling you a traitor and storming off.

That most certainly does not "fit their character(s) perfectly" unless their character is that of a bi-polar amnesiatic retard. And no, sending you a half-assed email apology doesn't vindicate them.

Just as the whole death and resurrection angle was created for no other reason than to offer an in-story explanation for why Shepard's level and abilities were reset from ME1, the Horizon encounter was scripted the way it was for no other reason than to afford the player the opportunity to explore a relationship with one of the new LIs in ME2. As far as story goes, it's completely nonsensical.

First, they quite clearly state that they think shepard is working for Cerberus. If they think Shepard is working for Cerberus and Shepard asks them to join him/her, than the VS is going to think Shep is asking them to work for Cerberus. 

Second, they were obviously collectors to us, but why do you think the VS would even know what a collector is? The collectors were not very well known and there is no reason to believe that the VS knew that's what they were. Considering that the VS spent a good deal of time shutting down Cerberus bases that were trying to create monsters, I don't feel it is a great leap for them to think these bug like aliens might just be another Cerberus creation. 

Third: People are to harsh on the VS because they know more about what is going on. All the VS knows is that a hero/lover they thought was dead pops up out of no where 2 years later and admit that they were rebuilt and are work with (I said with, not for; but that technicality would not mean much) Cerberus. And yet people are shocked that the VS does not abandon their post, responsibilities, and oath to the Alliance to run off with Shepard. Even Tali, who adores Shepard, does not join him until her mission was completed.

Fourth: Could the VS have handled the situation better? Of course they could have. They could have been more understanding or have been less of a jerk. but that is true for most people in the world. Can you guys really say that you never acted like a jerk to a loved one? There was never a conversation that you had where you could have given them more of a chance to explain themselves, but for what ever reason, you didn't? The VS just got frozen by a bug, found out half the colony is gone and that their hero/lover is working with a terrorist group. That is a lot to absorb. Their emotions were probably a mess at the moment and they acted like a jerk. This is not a plot hole, or bad writing (at least in my opinion). It's human nature

The funniest thing that eludes most people is that the VS was actually right: Cerberus WAS behind the attack on Horizon. TIM practically admitted himself at the debriefing, that he had personally drawn a fat red crossed circle on the Galaxy map around Horizon, and PM'd the Shadow Broker: "Shep's gonna be there at 12 o'clock, Sunday / Take care / Your secret friend in Cerberus."

Well, actually they  were investigating attacks in general.  Even I, who don't trust TiM at all, don't think TiM is responsible for all the Collector attacks.  Any thorough investigation will have to come to the ultimate conclusion that the Collectors, not Cerberus, were attacking colonies for their own reasons.  And that is, according to Anderson, the ultimate conclusion they do come to after Ash/Kaiden comes back from Horizon.  So the VS is not ultimately right, because the discussion isn't just about the attack on Horizon.

[JKoopman]

squee913 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I don't recall anyone complaining that Ash/Kaidan don't join Cerberus, least of all since Shepard wasn't asking them to join Cerberus; he was asking them to join him. But more to the point, what angers most people about the Horizon encounter is that the person who supposedly loved you in ME1, who you rescued from Virmire and who witnessed you not only stop the Reapers and save the galaxy in ME1 when no one else would believe in you but who has personally borne witness not 5 minutes prior to Shepard defending the Horizon colony against what were obviously Collectors... would turn around and not even give you the benefit of doubt let alone 10 minutes to try and explain yourself, and would actually try to blame the attack on Cerberus before calling you a traitor and storming off.

That most certainly does not "fit their character(s) perfectly" unless their character is that of a bi-polar amnesiatic retard. And no, sending you a half-assed email apology doesn't vindicate them.

Just as the whole death and resurrection angle was created for no other reason than to offer an in-story explanation for why Shepard's level and abilities were reset from ME1, the Horizon encounter was scripted the way it was for no other reason than to afford the player the opportunity to explore a relationship with one of the new LIs in ME2. As far as story goes, it's completely nonsensical.

First, they quite clearly state that they think shepard is working for Cerberus. If they think Shepard is working for Cerberus and Shepard asks them to join him/her, than the VS is going to think Shep is asking them to work for Cerberus.

They ask if you're working for Cerberus. You tell them that you're only working with Cerberus. At that point, it becomes a question of whether or not the person who's life you've saved multiple times (included 5 minutes prior to the conversation) and who trusted you implicitly in ME1 to the point where they were willing to defy orders and steal an Alliance frigate just to follow you in your pursuit of Saren now for some reason no longer believes your word, even with Garrus standing right there beside you. Again, a total 180° turn in character from how they behaved in ME1.

squee913 wrote...

Second, they were obviously collectors to us, but why do you think the VS would even know what a collector is? The collectors were not very well known and there is no reason to believe that the VS knew that's what they were. Considering that the VS spent a good deal of time shutting down Cerberus bases that were trying to create monsters, I don't feel it is a great leap for them to think these bug like aliens might just be another Cerberus creation.

Why not? Everyone else you meet seems to know enough about the Collectors. Even Miranda and Jacob, upon viewing Veetor's surveilance data on Freedom's Progress, profess "They look like Collectors!" Anderson seems to know plenty about them as well.

At the very least, even if the VS didn't know the first thing about Collectors, you'd think that if a mysterious and unknown alien race attacked Horizon and, upon fighting them off, they were told by the person whom they trusted most that they were Collectors, they would accept that judgement and not jump to the conclussion that the aliens attacking human colonies were somehow affiliated with a pro-human group.

squee913 wrote...

Third: People are to harsh on the VS because they know more about what is going on. All the VS knows is that a hero/lover they thought was dead pops up out of no where 2 years later and admit that they were rebuilt and are work with (I said with, not for; but that technicality would not mean much) Cerberus. And yet people are shocked that the VS does not abandon their post, responsibilities, and oath to the Alliance to run off with Shepard. Even Tali, who adores Shepard, does not join him until her mission was completed.

Again, the complaint isn't that the VS doesn't join Shepard. The complaint is that the VS disregards Shepard, accuses him of being a traitor and storms off without giving him a chance to explain. In point of fact, I'm all for the VS not joining Shepard on Horizon (or at all, during the course of ME2), but it could've been handled MUCH better.

As others have suggested, they could've expressed sentiments similar to Wrex or Liara or Tali on Freedom's Progress: that they believe you and they wish they could help, but they have their own mission and they can't drop everything to join you until it's complete. It would've been a touching--if not exactly cheerful--reunion. Instead, they wag their finger in your face, accuse you of being a traitor and a liar, refuse to believe anything you say and then storm off with a condescending remark about knowing where their loyalty lies (which apparently is no longer with the person whom they commited the aforementioned mutiny for in the first game).

squee913 wrote...

Fourth: Could the VS have handled the situation better? Of course they could have. They could have been more understanding or have been less of a jerk. but that is true for most people in the world. Can you guys really say that you never acted like a jerk to a loved one? There was never a conversation that you had where you could have given them more of a chance to explain themselves, but for what ever reason, you didn't? The VS just got frozen by a bug, found out half the colony is gone and that their hero/lover is working with a terrorist group. That is a lot to absorb. Their emotions were probably a mess at the moment and they acted like a jerk. This is not a plot hole, or bad writing (at least in my opinion). It's human nature

Have I ever reacted impulsively towards a loved one? Yes. But then, I don't recall any of my loved ones (and especially not a lover) saving the galaxy when no one else would believe in them, then dying and coming back to life only to rescue me from certain death by an unknown and unidentified enemy. I'd like to think that I'd cut said loved one a little slack in light of that.

Simply hand-waving it away as "Well, they were just reacting irrationally" is kind of a convenient cop-out for lousy writing. If you want to play the irrational card then I could just as easily swing it the other way and say that their irrational reaction could've been to follow the person they used to trust implicitly without regard for how they'd been brought back or whom they were working for.

Modifié par JKoopman, 17 mars 2011 - 07:15 .

[Almostfaceman]

squee913 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I don't recall anyone complaining that Ash/Kaidan don't join Cerberus, least of all since Shepard wasn't asking them to join Cerberus; he was asking them to join him. But more to the point, what angers most people about the Horizon encounter is that the person who supposedly loved you in ME1, who you rescued from Virmire and who witnessed you not only stop the Reapers and save the galaxy in ME1 when no one else would believe in you but who has personally borne witness not 5 minutes prior to Shepard defending the Horizon colony against what were obviously Collectors... would turn around and not even give you the benefit of doubt let alone 10 minutes to try and explain yourself, and would actually try to blame the attack on Cerberus before calling you a traitor and storming off.

That most certainly does not "fit their character(s) perfectly" unless their character is that of a bi-polar amnesiatic retard. And no, sending you a half-assed email apology doesn't vindicate them.

Just as the whole death and resurrection angle was created for no other reason than to offer an in-story explanation for why Shepard's level and abilities were reset from ME1, the Horizon encounter was scripted the way it was for no other reason than to afford the player the opportunity to explore a relationship with one of the new LIs in ME2. As far as story goes, it's completely nonsensical.

First, they quite clearly state that they think shepard is working for Cerberus. If they think Shepard is working for Cerberus and Shepard asks them to join him/her, than the VS is going to think Shep is asking them to work for Cerberus. 

Second, they were obviously collectors to us, but why do you think the VS would even know what a collector is? The collectors were not very well known and there is no reason to believe that the VS knew that's what they were. Considering that the VS spent a good deal of time shutting down Cerberus bases that were trying to create monsters, I don't feel it is a great leap for them to think these bug like aliens might just be another Cerberus creation. 

Third: People are to harsh on the VS because they know more about what is going on. All the VS knows is that a hero/lover they thought was dead pops up out of no where 2 years later and admit that they were rebuilt and are work with (I said with, not for; but that technicality would not mean much) Cerberus. And yet people are shocked that the VS does not abandon their post, responsibilities, and oath to the Alliance to run off with Shepard. Even Tali, who adores Shepard, does not join him until her mission was completed.

Fourth: Could the VS have handled the situation better? Of course they could have. They could have been more understanding or have been less of a jerk. but that is true for most people in the world. Can you guys really say that you never acted like a jerk to a loved one? There was never a conversation that you had where you could have given them more of a chance to explain themselves, but for what ever reason, you didn't? The VS just got frozen by a bug, found out half the colony is gone and that their hero/lover is working with a terrorist group. That is a lot to absorb. Their emotions were probably a mess at the moment and they acted like a jerk. This is not a plot hole, or bad writing (at least in my opinion). It's human nature

Look I agree with most of your points, but Shepard being the savior of the frickin galaxy (which they acknowledge as they approach) means he/she gets the benefit of the doubt.  Period.  It is poor writing/planning/whatever just because they wanted to keep the character out of the squad where anybody can die (so they're definitely in ME3).  Hey, I can't blame 'em completely, I mean they gotta set some limits on how far-ranging the story could go.  But yes, they handled it badly.  I love the game, but they handled it badly.

I love the part where you tell Ash you've been on a table for 2 years and Ash doesn't even ask if you're okay.  Bad writing.

I love the part where you tell them the Collectors are connected to the Reapers - not even an offer to meet up later to check data in a neutral area where both parties feel safe.  Just nothing.  They even conclude later you're right about Cerberus not being at fault - no apology, no getting together for drinks, no nothing.

Yes, people act poorly sometimes.  But considering what Ash/Kaiden has been through with Shepard they should realistically acted a bit better.  They already showed a willingness to follow him anywhere, even if the Alliance doesn't back him up.  This doesn't mean they automatically have to believe him at first, but damn Shepard deserves 30 minutes to talk things over.

Yes I know Shepard can be a her as well so no offense if I say "him" too much - it's who I play, and yeah Kaiden doesn't ever make it past Virmire with me.  He's boring.

[Zulu_DFA]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The funniest thing that eludes most people is that the VS was actually right: Cerberus WAS behind the attack on Horizon. TIM practically admitted himself at the debriefing, that he had personally drawn a fat red crossed circle on the Galaxy map around Horizon, and PM'd the Shadow Broker: "Shep's gonna be there at 12 o'clock, Sunday / Take care / Your secret friend in Cerberus."

Well, actually they  were investigating attacks in general.  Even I, who don't trust TiM at all, don't think TiM is responsible for all the Collector attacks.  Any thorough investigation will have to come to the ultimate conclusion that the Collectors, not Cerberus, were attacking colonies for their own reasons.  And that is, according to Anderson, the ultimate conclusion they do come to after Ash/Kaiden comes back from Horizon.  So the VS is not ultimately right, because the discussion isn't just about the attack on Horizon.

Of course, it's not like the VS knew at the moment what he was talking about. And it's only adds to the hilarity.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 mars 2011 - 07:17 .

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The
funniest thing that eludes most people is that the VS was actually
right: Cerberus WAS behind the attack on Horizon. TIM practically
admitted himself at the debriefing, that he had personally drawn a fat
red crossed circle on the Galaxy map around Horizon, and PM'd the
Shadow Broker: "Shep's gonna be there at 12 o'clock, Sunday / Take care
/ Your secret friend in Cerberus."

Well, actually they
 were investigating attacks in general.  Even I, who don't trust TiM at
all, don't think TiM is responsible for all the
Collector attacks.  Any thorough investigation will have to come to the
ultimate conclusion that the Collectors, not Cerberus, were attacking
colonies for their own reasons.  And that is, according to Anderson,
the ultimate conclusion they do come to after Ash/Kaiden comes back
from Horizon.  So the VS is not ultimately right, because the
discussion isn't just about the attack on Horizon.

Of course, it's not like the VS knew at the moment what he was talking about. And it's only adds to the hilarity.

Ok I'll give ya some giggle-points on this - but only a couple.  

[Zulu_DFA]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The funniest thing that eludes most people is that the VS was actually right: Cerberus WAS behind the attack on Horizon. TIM practically admitted himself at the debriefing, that he had personally drawn a fat red crossed circle on the Galaxy map around Horizon, and PM'd the Shadow Broker: "Shep's gonna be there at 12 o'clock, Sunday / Take care / Your secret friend in Cerberus."

Well, actually they were investigating attacks in general.  Even I, who don't trust TiM at all, don't think TiM is responsible for all the Collector attacks.  Any thorough investigation will have to come to the ultimate conclusion that the Collectors, not Cerberus, were attacking colonies for their own reasons.  And that is, according to Anderson, the ultimate conclusion they do come to after Ash/Kaiden comes back from Horizon.  So the VS is not ultimately right, because the discussion isn't just about the attack on Horizon.

Of course, it's not like the VS knew at the moment what he was talking about. And it's only adds to the hilarity.

Ok I'll give ya some giggle-points on this - but only a couple.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

That's all I was asking! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

[Bourne Endeavor]

iakus wrote...

squee913 wrote...

I find it a little strange that the only thing people are arguing over is Shep's death and resurrection. Should this suggest that the only faults anyone finds with my videos are those two arguments? I was hoping to debate different aspects of the game, not just the opening scene. I would argue that one plot point (good or bad) does not make a bad game, and yet that is what 90% of the people on this thread are complaining about.

You'll find I argue most about ME 2's story in regards to

1 Shepard's death/ressurection

2 the meeting on Horizon

3) Reaper larva

4 The insular nature of the squad

Those are my biggest stumbling blocks with the game.  Not that there aren't more, but those are what really kill the game for me.

I would include Mordin and Seeker on the aforementioned list. At such a time we have yet to even confront the Seeker Swarm and somehow Mordin has captured one? What makes this particularly egregious is the possibility Mordin may be the last of four characters recruited prior to Horizon. This would insinuate he has discovered a Seeker, captured it and developed a resistance all within the span of a few minutes. He quite literally pulls the necessary plot device out from his ass.

[Whatever42]

Mordin had details scans of the Seekers. He could have easily created one.

[Darth Death]

I thought Smudboy's arguments were funny. The way he spoke made it seem that ME should cooperate absolute realism, in which would defeat the purpose of it being Sci-Fi. Not saying adding some realism is bad thing, but ultimately that wasn't ME focal point. There's a difference in making a story believable versus it being realistic. I disagree with many of his points & think he's reading too deep into this. First and foremost its a game, and games are meant to be fun. Don't take that away with a egoistic mentality. Accept it for what it is & move on, for there's no such thing as a perfect story nor game.

[Iakus]

JKoopman wrote...

Again, the complaint isn't that the VS doesn't join Shepard. The complaint is that the VS disregards Shepard, accuses him of being a traitor and storms off without giving him a chance to explain. In point of fact, I'm all for the VS not joining Shepard on Horizon (or at all, during the course of ME2), but it could've been handled MUCH better.

As others have suggested, they could've expressed sentiments similar to Wrex or Liara or Tali on Freedom's Progress: that they believe you and they wish they could help, but they have their own mission and they can't drop everything to join you until it's complete. It would've been a touching--if not exactly cheerful--reunion. Instead, they wag their finger in your face, accuse you of being a traitor and a liar, refuse to believe anything you say and then storm off with a condescending remark about knowing where their loyalty lies (which apparently is no longer with the person whom they commited the aforementioned mutiny for in the first game).

This.  Every.  SIngle.  Word.  But the bolded part in particular.

I have always been totally cool with the VS not joining the squad, even temporarilly.

I am totally fine with them being suspicious of an alliance with Cerberus, even temporarilly.  Heck I wish I could rail against TIM with half the intensity the VS expresses with Shepard.

But what I cannot condone, and cannot let go of, is the heavy-handed treatment, selective amnesia, and apparant failure of Shepard's charisma at a critical moment.  It's bad writing for no other reason it seems than to prepare the player to have a new trio of LIs paraded before you (at least, judging by the posts I've seen about the VS)

Simply hand-waving it away as "Well, they were just reacting irrationally" is kind of a convenient cop-out for lousy writing. If you want to play the irrational card then I could just as easily swing it the other way and say that their irrational reaction could've been to follow the person they used to trust implicitly without regard for how they'd been brought back or whom they were working for.

I notice there's a lot of hand-waving going on with ME2's story.

[Iakus]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

I would include Mordin and Seeker on the aforementioned list. At such a time we have yet to even confront the Seeker Swarm and somehow Mordin has captured one? What makes this particularly egregious is the possibility Mordin may be the last of four characters recruited prior to Horizon. This would insinuate he has discovered a Seeker, captured it and developed a resistance all within the span of a few minutes. He quite literally pulls the necessary plot device out from his ass.

I hold out the foolish hope that someday, someone will find some cut content on the discs that explains where it came from.  And restore it.  I mean, a single spoken line would neatly cover that little gap.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Scene on Freedom's Progress : *Shepard scoops up what appears to be a faulty bug thingy * 

Miranda : "Good idea we can study that".

When you get Mordin and unlocks the medical bay the bug will be zapping around in the glass box.

Optional : add ability to tap the glass and get angry buzzing sounds from it.

This is all that is needed. 

A scene lasting no more than 30 sec/ two lines of dialogue and a modified space hamster cage (which apparently WAS important enough to put in game but not the plot bug.)

And the strangest thing is that they had the bug in the glass cage animation already(cutscene just before Horizon).

I truly believe that this was intended to be in the game but was lost due to time constrains.  

[Anacronian Stryx]

I bet that the decision on making the meeting with the VS on Horizon vent a bit like this.

Dev 1 :"So how do we pull of this meeting?"

Dev 2 :"Well Ash/Kaidan won't join the crew, They don't have any particular information and most importantly players who only own ME2 will have no interest in them so we basically have to get them squared away as fast as possible".

Dev 1 :"Then why even have them there?".

Dev 2 :"Well we have to have something to make the old players a bit happy..but just make it over as fast as possible".

So instead of having an actual interesting meeting that might prompt new players to go buy ME1 to see what the relationship whit Ash/Kaidan was all about they chose instead to make it short in the fear of alienating new players, It was simply a bad decision.