1198 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

I always saw that as Anderson considering you his "son" of sorts. If you are with Cerberus, Anderson probably trusts you to screw Cerberus somehow. Renegade shep has a bit of a reputation for that, and Paragon shep is just outright anti-cerberus.

[SSV Enterprise]

Almostfaceman wrote...

I guess their only saving grace is that the books/comics/extras are not canonical. 

Um, no.  All that thread talks about is how there is no "canon" background to Shepard.  The books and comics are canonical.  The books were written by Drew Karpyshyn, and the comics were written by Mac Walters, both lead writers for the games.  The first book, Revelation, was published before ME1 was even released.

[Almostfaceman]

SSV Enterprise wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

I guess their only saving grace is that the books/comics/extras are not canonical. 

Um, no.  All that thread talks about is how there is no "canon" background to Shepard.  The books and comics are canonical.  The books were written by Drew Karpyshyn, and the comics were written by Mac Walters, both lead writers for the games.  The first book, Revelation, was published before ME1 was even released.

Um, no.  The books and comics are NOT canonical.  Yes, I'm providing more links.

[FlyinElk212]

Ok, first impressions: It took you 7 minutes and 40 seconds to actually start your argument.

7 Minutes and 40 seconds.

Please cut down on the fluff, and stick with simply refuting Smudboy's arguments, not every detail of your thought process for the purpose of this video, or expressing your disdain for Smud's pompousness.

Next, you framed the video as an attack on Smudboy. Instead of providing a counterargument to us, you created a personal rebuttal message for Smudboy, as evidenced by you spefically saying "you" to Smud on multiple occassions.

It made it very difficult for me to agree with your argument when it took you so long to get to it, and you chose to frame the video as an attack on Smudboy, instead of a presentation of informative cross examination of his points.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 18 mars 2011 - 09:11 .

[squee913]

Can anyone confirm that the books are non canon? I mean show were a developer, writer, or even moderator stated they are not. I am not saying you are wrong, because I don't know, but he said she said is not really enough. I was under the impression that they were.

As for the argument that the VS was willing to follow Shep against he alliance to go to Ilos; you can't compare that with their decision to not abandon their mission on horizon to follow Shep.
In ME1, they
1.) had first hand knowledge that Saren was on Ilos and about the do something very very bad.
2.) Knew that if they did not defy orders, the entire galaxy could be at stake.
3.) had been given a mission to stop Saren at all costs. Disobeying orders in this case, would be seen as necessary to complete the mission they had been given (even if the council did not see it)

In ME2 they
1) had no real idea who was attacking the colonies, and had no evidence that the reapers were behind it.
2) They were being asked to abandon their mission to work with a terrorist group with a Shep who may not have his head on straight.

In no way shape or form are these choices similar or should be expected to invoke a similar response.

[squee913]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Ok, first impressions: It took you 7 minutes and 40 seconds to actually start your argument.

7 Minutes and 40 seconds.

Please cut down on the fluff, and stick with simply refuting Smudboy's arguments, not every detail of your thought process for the purpose of this video, or expressing your disdain for Smud's pompousness.

Next, you framed the video as an attack on Smudboy. Instead of providing a counterargument to us, you created a personal rebuttal message for Smudboy, as evidenced by you spefically saying "you" to Smud on multiple occassions.

It made it very difficult for me to agree with your argument when it took you so long to get to it, and you chose to frame the video as an attack on Smudboy, instead of a presentation of informative cross examination of his points.

I realize that the intro (around 5 minutes actually) was a bit long, and for that I apologize. The other two minutes were part of the arguments as the video is an examination of not only the arguments, but how they are presented. This is an important point to make, as you yourself stated that you did not agree with my points, merely for the way they were presented and not on their actual integrity.

I fail to see, however, how this is in any shape or form a personal attack on smudboy. I attack his arguments, not him. There is a big difference between saying someone is an idiot (which I don't feel he is) and saying that his arguments are ill-logical. I suppose there are people that cannot tell the difference, but that is not my fault, nor should it reflect upon me. There are several people on this thread who have disagreed with me and debated me. Ask any one of them if they felt I have made any sort of personal attack on them.

Lastly, people keep expecting me to offer some sort of counter thesis. I don't understand why this is necessary. The point of the videos is to simply show the flaws in smudboys arguments, not o put forth a position of my own. I am not trying to convince people ME2 is a great game with a great story. I am simply trying to show that he arguments used to support Smud's thesis are full of flaws. This requires no counter thesis.

[CroGamer002]

squee913 wrote...

Can anyone confirm that the books are non canon? I mean show were a developer, writer, or even moderator stated they are not. I am not saying you are wrong, because I don't know, but he said she said is not really enough. I was under the impression that they were.

Not sure who said it but it was said there is no canon Shepard but yours.

While in Revelation Udina is the Councilor and in some godawful comic too( one with Cpt. Bailey).

Also in Revelation Collector base is kept by Cerebrus.

[squee913]

Mesina2 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Can anyone confirm that the books are non canon? I mean show were a developer, writer, or even moderator stated they are not. I am not saying you are wrong, because I don't know, but he said she said is not really enough. I was under the impression that they were.

Not sure who said it but it was said there is no canon Shepard but yours.

While in Revelation Udina is the Councilor and in some godawful comic too( one with Cpt. Bailey).

Also in Revelation Collector base is kept by Cerebrus.

ahh i see. Have not read that book yet. I think the fact that Udnia being the councilor simply showed that Anderson was not the councilor at he point of the book (might have stepped down or something) but if the collector base was kept, then you have an excellent point :happy:

Modifié par squee913, 18 mars 2011 - 09:44 .

[Almostfaceman]

squee913 wrote...

Can anyone confirm that the books are non canon? I mean show were a developer, writer, or even moderator stated they are not. I am not saying you are wrong, because I don't know, but he said she said is not really enough. I was under the impression that they were.

So far the quote from here

"The following possibilities are the only ones that match up with Inquisition and Retribution:The following possibilities are the only ones that match up with Inquisition and Retribution:BioWare has given up on having comics and books clashing with possible player choices, and the versions of events we see happening in the books and comics only occurred that way in the default story, or for players that chose Udina.Anderson stepped down from being Councilor shortly after the events of Mass Effect 2 but before Retribution. This event can obviously not be mentioned in the books or comics because that would clash with the story for players who chose Udina originally.The only way we'll get an answer is if a writer comes forward with an explanation (Drew Karpyshyn's responses line up with the first possibility, but are inconclusiveioWare has given up on having comics and books clashing with possible player choices, and the versions of events we see happening in the books and comics only occurred that way in the default story, or for players that chose Udina.Anderson stepped down from being Councilor shortly after the events of Mass Effect 2 but beforeRetribution. This event can obviously not be mentioned in the books or comics because that[/i] would clash with the story for players who chose Udina originally.[/i]The only way we'll get an answer is if a writer comes forward with an explanation (Drew Karpyshyn's responses line up with the first possibility, but are inconclusive"


And further conversation here seem to support the notion of a "default" story versus a "canonical" story.  Mass Effect 2 had "default" settings for those not importing a Mass Effect 1 savegame - this does not make them any more valid or invalid.  There is no "canon" for Mass Effect because that renders the concept of Mass Effect null and void.  The concept is, of course, that the story is what you make of it.

Still looking for more information just posting what I've found so far.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 18 mars 2011 - 09:49 .

[piemanz]

Mesina2 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Can anyone confirm that the books are non canon? I mean show were a developer, writer, or even moderator stated they are not. I am not saying you are wrong, because I don't know, but he said she said is not really enough. I was under the impression that they were.

Not sure who said it but it was said there is no canon Shepard but yours.

While in Revelation Udina is the Councilor and in some godawful comic too( one with Cpt. Bailey).

Also in Revelation Collector base is kept by Cerebrus.

I could be wrong here even though i have read retribution.The book only says that Anderson is a high ranking official in the alliance (which could mean anything), and that cerberus have Collector/Reaper technology not necessarily the whole base.Bioware certainly seemded to be as vague as possible regarding these areas which leads me to beleive they were trying to keep it from interfering with your choices ingame.

I'm inclined to beleive these events to be canonical and that Udina will in fact be the canon ambassador in ME3.I guess we will have to wait and see.

Modifié par piemanz, 18 mars 2011 - 10:55 .

[JKoopman]

squee913 wrote...

Can anyone confirm that the books are non canon? I mean show were a developer, writer, or even moderator stated they are not. I am not saying you are wrong, because I don't know, but he said she said is not really enough. I was under the impression that they were.

As for the argument that the VS was willing to follow Shep against he alliance to go to Ilos; you can't compare that with their decision to not abandon their mission on horizon to follow Shep.
In ME1, they
1.) had first hand knowledge that Saren was on Ilos and about the do something very very bad.
2.) Knew that if they did not defy orders, the entire galaxy could be at stake.
3.) had been given a mission to stop Saren at all costs. Disobeying orders in this case, would be seen as necessary to complete the mission they had been given (even if the council did not see it)

In ME2 they
1) had no real idea who was attacking the colonies, and had no evidence that the reapers were behind it.
2) They were being asked to abandon their mission to work with a terrorist group with a Shep who may not have his head on straight.

In no way shape or form are these choices similar or should be expected to invoke a similar response.

In ME1, they:
1) Had second-hand knowledge that the Reapers were a real threat as opposed to a convenient lie perpetrate by Saren. The only evidence they had to go on was Shepard's word from his interpertation of the Prothean vision (which may or may not have been an accurate translation and who may or may not have been suffering mental delusions via exposure to alien technology and asari mind-linking), an audio recording of Saren taken by Tali, and the holographic transmission from Sovereign on Virmire which could easily have been faked.
2) In light of #1, had only Shepard's word on which to believe that the galaxy was in peril.
3) Were under direct orders from the Council to stand down... the same Council that grants Spectres their authority and that gave them their orders to track Saren down in the first place. They weren't obeying some higher authority by breaking the Normandy out of impound. They were defying their only authority and following Shepard on his own personal quest.

In ME2, they:
1) Have first-hand knowledge of the Collector threat in that they just witnessed an unknown and unidentified alien race abduct the Colonists of Horizon and knew directly of several other colonies that had been abducted wholesale under similar circumstances, as opposed to the handful of small-scale attacks that Saren had perpetrated.
2) Thus have their own experiences on which to access the threat and don't simply have to take Shepard's word for it.
3) Were on a solo operation outside of Council space (and therefor beyond Alliance prosecution) to install defense towers for the Horizon colony and to investigate Shepard's apparent return; the first mission effectively being complete as of the towers being made operational and the later, in fact, actually being abandoned by not pursuing Shepard to determine the extent of his/her relationship with Cerberus and whether or not Cerberus in fact was exerting control over Shepard or was behind the colony attacks.

Modifié par JKoopman, 18 mars 2011 - 11:04 .

[Almostfaceman]

post deleted

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 18 mars 2011 - 11:13 .

[piemanz]

JKoopman wrote...

In ME1, they:
1) Had second-hand knowledge that the Reapers were a real threat as opposed to a convenient lie perpetrate by Saren. The only evidence they had to go on was Shepard's word from his interpertation of the Prothean vision (which may or may not have been an accurate translation and who may or may not have been suffering mental delusions via exposure to alien technology and asari mind-linking), an audio recording of Saren taken by Tali, and the holographic transmission from Sovereign on Virmire which could easily have been faked.

Lets see...There was the attack on Eden prime where they witnessed first hand saren murdering nihlus, the reaper taking off, and shepard being levitated 5 feet in the air by the prothean beacon.

Not to mention the fact that saren was working with the geth, that had not been seen outside the veil for 200 years.He was also trying to build an army of Krogan which in itself is a reason to take him out.

I doubt very much they would have seen the holographic transmission of sovereign as a fake since not only did they already know what sovreign looked like from Eden prime but not many holograms can make the windows explode when finishing a sentence.

There are many other situation in the game that all lead back to saren too.You have to remember for most of the first game it was about stopping Saren not stopping the reapers.It's wasn't untill later on that the reaper threat became truly apparent.

JKoopman wrote...

2) In light of #1, had only Shepard's word on which to believe that the galaxy was in peril.

No...

Infact shepards visions played a fairly minor part in the game, the council didn't beleive him and i'm not sure shepard knew what the hell they were through most of the game.But the 2 asari mindmelds must have been some indication to the VS that he wasn't BS'ing.

JKoopman wrote...

3) Were under direct orders from the Council to stand down... the same Council that grants Spectres their authority and that gave them their orders to track Saren down in the first place. They weren't obeying some higher authority by breaking the Normandy out of impound. They were defying their only authority and following Shepard on his own personal quest.

Not really.It was their quest too.Shepard was defying the coucil fair enough but given what he knows then i'd say that was understandable.The VS on the other hand i always felt were defying Udina and the coucil (for what they must have though was a greater good) and not the alliance directly.I would imagine the fact that Anderson was willing to risk everthing for the cause would have helped them go along with it also.

JKoopman wrote...


In ME2, they:
1) Have first-hand knowledge of the Collector threat in that they just witnessed an unknown and unidentified alien race abduct the Colonists of Horizon and knew directly of several other colonies that had been abducted wholesale under similar circumstances, as opposed to the handful of small-scale attacks that Saren had perpetrated.


2) Thus have their own experiences on which to access the threat and don't simply have to take Shepard's word for it.

3) Were on a solo operation outside of Council space (and therefor beyond Alliance prosecution) to install defense towers for the Horizon colony and to investigate Shepard's apparent return; the first mission effectively being complete as of the towers being made operational and the later, in fact, actually being abandoned by not pursuing Shepard to determine the extent of his/her relationship with Cerberus and whether or not Cerberus in fact was exerting control over Shepard or was behind the colony attacks.

I always find it odd that people think that the VS would just jump at the chance to tag along with Shep again.Especially under the circumstances.I think it's fair to say they are quite highly regarded within the alliance given the fact that they are conducting covert missions outside of council space and their records are extremely hard to find.

Think about that for a second.

Along comes Shepard who's been certifiably dead for 2 years, saves their asses after the planet they were on just happens to get attacked, and asks them to come along with him and Cerberus.

Cerberus, the group thats an avowed enemy of both the council and the alliance, The group thats seen as terrorists by both of them.Bare in mind there is no real evidence that the collectors are working for the reapers at this point, and even if there was why would the VS think that tagging along with shepard and cerberus was a better option than investigating it for the Alliance?.

Modifié par piemanz, 19 mars 2011 - 12:30 .

[Almostfaceman]

squee913 wrote...

Can anyone confirm that the books are non canon? I mean show were a developer, writer, or even moderator stated they are not. I am not saying you are wrong, because I don't know, but he said she said is not really enough. I was under the impression that they were.

Here's something else to chew on from Masseffect Wiki:

Some wikis – particularly Wookieepedia – which are working from a long-established and defined canon, have clear guidelines as to whether a character is male / female, and what decisions are canon, and write articles accordingly. Because Mass Effect is open for players to create their own story through their decisions, MEWiki does not hold one particular course of action or aspect of character creation as canon, but gives equal credence to player choices.

This is strong evidence that Bioware has not made any statements to the contrary.

[piemanz]

Almostfaceman wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Can anyone confirm that the books are non canon? I mean show were a developer, writer, or even moderator stated they are not. I am not saying you are wrong, because I don't know, but he said she said is not really enough. I was under the impression that they were.

Here's something else to chew on from Masseffect Wiki:

Some wikis – particularly Wookieepedia – which are working from a long-established and defined canon, have clear guidelines as to whether a character is male / female, and what decisions are canon, and write articles accordingly. Because Mass Effect is open for players to create their own story through their decisions, MEWiki does not hold one particular course of action or aspect of character creation as canon, but gives equal credence to player choices.

This is strong evidence that Bioware has not made any statements to the contrary.

The best way to figure out if the books are canon or not is to read them and see how they play out in game.

So far Revelation is canon, this is clear from the start of ME1 and Ascension is also canon, the main reason tali hate cerberus in ME2 is because of the events in Ascension.

With that in mind i see no reason to beleive that Retribution is not canon also.It's been 3 years since shepard chose anderson for the council in ME1 and he makes it quite clear he hates it in ME2, so i see no reason why he wouldn't step down as ambassador at some point after ME2.

[Almostfaceman]

piemanz wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Can anyone confirm that the books are non canon? I mean show were a developer, writer, or even moderator stated they are not. I am not saying you are wrong, because I don't know, but he said she said is not really enough. I was under the impression that they were.

Here's something else to chew on from Masseffect Wiki:

Some wikis – particularly Wookieepedia – which are working from a long-established and defined canon, have clear guidelines as to whether a character is male / female, and what decisions are canon, and write articles accordingly. Because Mass Effect is open for players to create their own story through their decisions, MEWiki does not hold one particular course of action or aspect of character creation as canon, but gives equal credence to player choices.

This is strong evidence that Bioware has not made any statements to the contrary.

The best way to figure out if the books are canon or not is to read them and see how they play out in game.

So far Revelation is canon, this is clear from the start of ME1 and Ascension is also canon, the main reason tali hate cerberus in ME2 is because of the events in Ascension.

With that in mind i see no reason to beleive that Retribution is not canon also.It's been 3 years since shepard chose anderson for the council in ME1 and he makes it quite clear he hates it in ME2, so i see no reason why he wouldn't step down as ambassador at some point after ME2.

Please look back in this thread and you'll see how this topic came up.  There are some contradictions to choices players can make  in the game.  Otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it. 

[piemanz]

Almostfaceman wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Can anyone confirm that the books are non canon? I mean show were a developer, writer, or even moderator stated they are not. I am not saying you are wrong, because I don't know, but he said she said is not really enough. I was under the impression that they were.

Here's something else to chew on from Masseffect Wiki:

Some wikis – particularly Wookieepedia – which are working from a long-established and defined canon, have clear guidelines as to whether a character is male / female, and what decisions are canon, and write articles accordingly. Because Mass Effect is open for players to create their own story through their decisions, MEWiki does not hold one particular course of action or aspect of character creation as canon, but gives equal credence to player choices.

This is strong evidence that Bioware has not made any statements to the contrary.

The best way to figure out if the books are canon or not is to read them and see how they play out in game.

So far Revelation is canon, this is clear from the start of ME1 and Ascension is also canon, the main reason tali hate cerberus in ME2 is because of the events in Ascension.

With that in mind i see no reason to beleive that Retribution is not canon also.It's been 3 years since shepard chose anderson for the council in ME1 and he makes it quite clear he hates it in ME2, so i see no reason why he wouldn't step down as ambassador at some point after ME2.

Please look back in this thread and you'll see how this topic came up.  There are some contradictions to choices players can make  in the game.  Otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it. 

Sorry i thought i had read all of it lol.

I'm not seeing any contradictions in choices the players can make though

piemanz wrote...

I could be wrong here even though i have
read retribution.The book only says that Anderson is a high ranking
official in the alliance (which could mean anything), and that cerberus
have Collector/Reaper technology not necessarily the whole base.Bioware
certainly seemded to be as vague as possible regarding these areas which
leads me to beleive they were trying to keep it from interfering with
your choices ingame.

I'm inclined to beleive these events to be
canonical and that Udina will in fact be the canon ambassador in ME3.I
guess we will have to wait and see.

Modifié par piemanz, 19 mars 2011 - 01:43 .

[Almostfaceman]

piemanz wrote...

Sorry i thought i had read all of it lol.

I'm not seeing any contradictions in choices the players can make though

Well there is some discussion in this thread about the book picking Udina to be the councilor or something instead of Anderson.  There are other discrepencies that I remember reading about but I don't have the books or comics so I don't remember what they are off the top of my head.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 19 mars 2011 - 01:45 .

[piemanz]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Well there is some discussion in
this thread about the book picking Udina to be the councilor or
something instead of Anderson.  There are other discrepencies that I
remember reading about but I don't have the books or comics so I don't
remember what they are off the top of my head.

I thought i covered all of that

Modifié par piemanz, 19 mars 2011 - 01:47 .

[Almostfaceman]

Almostfaceman wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Sorry i thought i had read all of it lol.

I'm not seeing any contradictions in choices the players can make though

Well there is some discussion in this thread about the book picking Udina to be the councilor or something instead of Anderson.  There are other discrepencies that I remember reading about but I don't have the books or comics so I don't remember what they are off the top of my head.

Here's a link that references that and confirms the book picks Udina.

Edit: Actually, book(s), both Retribution and Inquisition.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 19 mars 2011 - 01:52 .

[piemanz]

Almostfaceman wrote...


Here's a link that references that and confirms the book picks Udina.

This is what i have been saying....

This just proves the the book is canon.The book does not choose Udina, Anderson resigns his post, theres a big difference.Just because you chose Anderson as couceler in ME1 does not mean he has to stay counceler through to ME3, things change and the fact he resigns makes it impossible.

[Almostfaceman]

piemanz wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...


Here's a link that references that and confirms the book picks Udina.

This is what i have been saying....

This just proves the the book is canon.The book does not choose Udina, Anderson resigns his post, theres a big difference.Just because you chose Anderson as couceler in ME1 does not mean he has to stay counceler through to ME3, things change and the fact he resigns makes it impossible.

Actually no it doesn't.  The wiki doesn't say the book is canon and in the previous links I provide they specifically say that there is no canon because the story is run by player-choice.

[Almostfaceman]

piemanz wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...


Here's a link that references that and confirms the book picks Udina.

This is what i have been saying....

This just proves the the book is canon.The book does not choose Udina, Anderson resigns his post, theres a big difference.Just because you chose Anderson as couceler in ME1 does not mean he has to stay counceler through to ME3, things change and the fact he resigns makes it impossible.

According to the Wiki:
During the events of Mass Effect: Retribution, Udina is the human representative on the Citadel Council, with Admiral Anderson serving as his adviser.

So what you're saying is the book says Anderson resigns then goes back to being an Admiral in the Alliance?

[piemanz]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Actually no it doesn't.  The wiki doesn't say the book is canon and in the previous links I provide they specifically say that there is no canon because the story is run by player-choice.

I think you're making to much of the Wiki in all honesty, i know the wiki does not say the books are canon, i am.

The article you linked to earlier is just a guide for Editing the Wiki due to there being so many player choices, the books do not count, becasue you dont get to make a choice in a book.

The reason i'm saying that just proves the book is canon is not because the wiki is telling me it is, it's because if you read Retribution anderson resigns from his post and then in Inquisition Udina is the couceler.There is no way Anderson can be couceler if he's resigned his post...

Anyway thats enough we'll jst see in ME3 or the new dlc

[piemanz]

Almostfaceman wrote...

According to the Wiki:
During the events of Mass Effect: Retribution, Udina is the human representative on the Citadel Council, with Admiral Anderson serving as his adviser.

So what you're saying is the book says Anderson resigns then goes back to being an Admiral in the Alliance?

Yes, pretty much.

I though the book was delibratly vague regarding the role of anderson and udina but it's not unfeasable that anderson just resigns as couceler and hands the reigns over to Udina some time after ME2, he make it quite clear he hates it.

But either way during the Events in Retribution he outright resigns his post as either counceler or admiral.Which is why Udina is the couceler in inquistion and will probably be the counceler in ME3.

Modifié par piemanz, 19 mars 2011 - 02:22 .