1198 réponses à ce sujet

[JKoopman]

piemanz wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

In ME1, they:
1) Had second-hand knowledge that the Reapers were a real threat as opposed to a convenient lie perpetrate by Saren. The only evidence they had to go on was Shepard's word from his interpertation of the Prothean vision (which may or may not have been an accurate translation and who may or may not have been suffering mental delusions via exposure to alien technology and asari mind-linking), an audio recording of Saren taken by Tali, and the holographic transmission from Sovereign on Virmire which could easily have been faked.

Lets see...There was the attack on Eden prime where they witnessed first hand saren murdering nihlus, the reaper taking off, and shepard being levitated 5 feet in the air by the prothean beacon.

Not to mention the fact that saren was working with the geth, that had not been seen outside the veil for 200 years.He was also trying to build an army of Krogan which in itself is a reason to take him out.

I doubt very much they would have seen the holographic transmission of sovereign as a fake since not only did they already know what sovreign looked like from Eden prime but not many holograms can make the windows explode when finishing a sentence.

There are many other situation in the game that all lead back to saren too.You have to remember for most of the first game it was about stopping Saren not stopping the reapers.It's wasn't untill later on that the reaper threat became truly apparent.

Yes. Later. In fact, right after Virmire and immediately before stealing the Normandy to chase after Saren is when things become "about the Reapers", and no one save Shepard has any reason to believe they're anything more than a convenient tool that Saren is using to control the geth.

That's the point. All the VS has to go on in regrds to there being a threat to the galaxy is:

a) Shepard's word based on his understanding of the Prothean vision (which, again, the VS would have no way of knowing for certain that it wasn't all just some sort of schizophrenic delusion brought on from exposure to alien technology and potential influence or manipulation from his/her multiple mind-links with asari).

An audio recording of Saren mentioned the Conduit bringing about the return of the Reapers, which even the Council proclaims could simply be a ruse that Saren is using to manipulate the geth.

c) A conversation with a VI hologram on Virmire with no way to verify it's authenticity or accuracy.

Shepard steals the Normandy from impound to pursue Saren against the orders of the Council and the Alliance. He's Captain Ahab chasing his White Whale, and the VS goes along for the ride on nothing more than his/her faith in Shepard's convictions.

piemanz wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

2) In light of #1, had only Shepard's word on which to believe that the galaxy was in peril.

No...

Infact shepards visions played a fairly minor part in the game, the council didn't beleive him and i'm not sure shepard knew what the hell they were through most of the game.But the 2 asari mindmelds must have been some indication to the VS that he wasn't BS'ing.

Why? The VS has no way of seeing the Prothean vision himself, and Shepard's mind-melds with Liara prove only that Shepard believes what he believes; not that what he believes is true. Again, it comes down to faith in Shepard.

piemanz wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

3) Were under direct orders from the Council to stand down... the same Council that grants Spectres their authority and that gave them their orders to track Saren down in the first place. They weren't obeying some higher authority by breaking the Normandy out of impound. They were defying their only authority and following Shepard on his own personal quest.

Not really.It was their quest too.Shepard was defying the coucil fair enough but given what he knows then i'd say that was understandable.The VS on the other hand i always felt were defying Udina and the coucil (for what they must have though was a greater good) and not the alliance directly.I would imagine the fact that Anderson was willing to risk everthing for the cause would have helped them go along with it also.

Udina is the Alliance ambassador. His authority supercedes Anderson's, who's just a Captain. How is defying Udina to follow Anderson not defying the Alliance as well as the Council? The fact that Anderson had to break into Udina's office to override the lockdown on the Alliance docking bay (and warns that they could both be charged with treason for doing so) kind of proves that Anderson and Shepard didn't exactly have the approval of the Alliance when they took the Normandy on their little joyride.

piemanz wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

In ME2, they:
1) Have first-hand knowledge of the Collector threat in that they just witnessed an unknown and unidentified alien race abduct the Colonists of Horizon and knew directly of several other colonies that had been abducted wholesale under similar circumstances, as opposed to the handful of small-scale attacks that Saren had perpetrated.


2) Thus have their own experiences on which to access the threat and don't simply have to take Shepard's word for it.

3) Were on a solo operation outside of Council space (and therefor beyond Alliance prosecution) to install defense towers for the Horizon colony and to investigate Shepard's apparent return; the first mission effectively being complete as of the towers being made operational and the later, in fact, actually being abandoned by not pursuing Shepard to determine the extent of his/her relationship with Cerberus and whether or not Cerberus in fact was exerting control over Shepard or was behind the colony attacks.

I always find it odd that people think that the VS would just jump at the chance to tag along with Shep again.Especially under the circumstances.I think it's fair to say they are quite highly regarded within the alliance given the fact that they are conducting covert missions outside of council space and their records are extremely hard to find.

Think about that for a second.

Along comes Shepard who's been certifiably dead for 2 years, saves their asses after the planet they were on just happens to get attacked, and asks them to come along with him and Cerberus.

Cerberus, the group thats an avowed enemy of both the council and the alliance, The group thats seen as terrorists by both of them.Bare in mind there is no real evidence that the collectors are working for the reapers at this point, and even if there was why would the VS think that tagging along with shepard and cerberus was a better option than investigating it for the Alliance?.

I'm not saying that they should have joined Shepard. I'm just pointing out that it would actually make more sense in regards to their defined mission parameters for the VS to tag along with Shepard in ME2 than it did for them to tag along with Shepard to Ilos in ME1 from the perspective of a fine upstanding Alliance soldier who "knows where his loyalties lie", so saying that the later is completely justifiable but the former would totally contradict their character is nonsense.

Modifié par JKoopman, 19 mars 2011 - 02:15 .

[Iakus]

I agree with everything above save the VS tagging along. That makes sense. What makes no sense is railing against Shepard for being a traitor, for abandoning what the Alliance stands for, etc. When clearly this is not a unique event. That they had, in fact, gone along with similar actions a couple of years ago.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

I agree with everything above save the VS tagging along. That makes sense. What makes no sense is railing against Shepard for being a traitor, for abandoning what the Alliance stands for, etc. When clearly this is not a unique event. That they had, in fact, gone along with similar actions a couple of years ago.

SPEAKING OF DEBATES...

Anyway, I think as squee pointed out, the main issue is that for Mass Effect 1 the VS was with you there every step of the way, and had intimate knowledge regarding Saren's plans. When Shepard decides to break the lockdown, Ashley/Kaidan knows why he is doing it and is fully accepting of it.

As someone brought up earlier, if a person I cared about/loved came back from the dead (brought back by a terrorist organization), I cannot rightly say what my reaction would be. It could be anywhere from anger, to joy, to sorrow. Whatever we might say of Ashley's personality, I think it's unfair to her as a character to say her reaction did not make sense. We'd never seen her in such a situation before.

[piemanz]

JKoopman wrote...

Yes. Later. In fact, right after Virmire and immediately before stealing the Normandy to chase after Saren is when things become "about the Reapers", and no one save Shepard has any reason to believe they're anything more than a convenient tool that Saren is using to control the geth.

That's the point. All the VS has to go on in regrds to there being a threat to the galaxy is:

a) Shepard's word based on his understanding of the Prothean vision (which, again, the VS would have no way of knowing for certain that it wasn't all just some sort of schizophrenic delusion brought on from exposure to alien technology and potential influence or manipulation from his/her multiple mind-links with asari).

An audio recording of Saren mentioned the Conduit bringing about the return of the Reapers, which even the Council proclaims could simply be a ruse that Saren is using to manipulate the geth.

c) A conversation with a VI hologram on Virmire with no way to verify it's authenticity or accuracy.

Shepard steals the Normandy from impound to pursue Saren against the orders of the Council and the Alliance. He's Captain Ahab chasing his White Whale, and the VS goes along for the ride on nothing more than his/her faith in Shepard's convictions.

My point was that just going after Saren alone was enough to justify their actions even without the threat of the reapers.

JKoopman wrote...

Why? The VS has no way of seeing the Prothean vision himself, and Shepard's mind-melds with Liara prove only that Shepard believes what he believes; not that what he believes is true. Again, it comes down to faith in Shepard.

Again, my point was their decision was justified without the threat of the reapers.But given what they had seen throughout the game you would not need solid evidence to conclude that some serious **** was about to hit the fan, just a little common sense.

JKoopman wrote...

Udina is the Alliance ambassador. His authority supercedes Anderson's, who's just a Captain. How is defying Udina to follow Anderson not defying the Alliance as well as the Council? The fact that Anderson had to break into Udina's office to override the lockdown on the Alliance docking bay (and warns that they could both be charged with treason for doing so) kind of proves that Anderson and Shepard didn't exactly have the approval of the Alliance when they took the Normandy on their little joyride.

You're right they didn't have the approval of the Alliance and i said they risked everything by technicaly defying the alliance.I say tecnicaly because i always felt they were defying the council and Udina and this was pretty much the only thing they could possibly do to see their mission through.If it did not have such high stakes it would have been different.

Also they were on an Alliance ship with mainly Alliance crew under commander sheperd (the spectre) and being let free to go by captain Anderson.Heading off with the knowledge that saren had an army of geth under him and was about to go after the conduit, whatever that was,  it was definatly not going to be good.
I would argue that this is a lot different from being asked to join Comander sheperd (whos been dead for 2 years) whos working for cerberus on a cerberus ship, with a cerberus crew, and a bunch of outlaws and Mercs.

I know you're not saying they should go with shepard, but i think the decision to dissobey orders in ME1 was more of a decision that derived organicly from the events of ME1, and it just seemed like the only thing they could do, rather than a concious decision to go against orders.

Also in ME1 their decision never made them directly at odds with the Alliance as apposed to ME2 where joining shepered they would have been considered enemys of the Alliance.

In ME1 they were just a bunch of Alliance soldiers dissobeying orders to do what they thought was the only possble way to stop saren.Joining the avowed enemy of the Alliance (which sheperd did) is a whole different ball game from their perspective.

Modifié par piemanz, 19 mars 2011 - 06:09 .

[Il Divo]

Rekkampum wrote...

Every now and then iakus and I get into a huge discussion about something. The first one I remember was over the credibility of the VS on one of Sable Phoenix's threads. I've been slacking though. 

A formidable opponent, to be sure. The man knows how to raise the hand of friendship while simultaneously wielding words as one might use a sword. A most deadly combination.

Modifié par Il Divo, 19 mars 2011 - 03:11 .

[Zulu_DFA]

squee913 wrote...

Can anyone confirm that the books are non canon? I mean show were a developer, writer, or even moderator stated they are not. I am not saying you are wrong, because I don't know, but he said she said is not really enough. I was under the impression that they were.

The books and comics are canon. Dark Horse (and Chris Priestly after them) openly advertise the comics as canon.

There are minor retcons regarding the very first book Revelation, but considering it came out even before ME1 was finished, it's understandable. A few more things are considered retcons by some people but really aren't (as opposed to "expanding the universe").

The only major issue is the apparent "retconning" of the players' choice to select Anderson as the Human Councillor, and there is an e-mail by Drew Karpyshyn himself, the meaning of which is debated too (check it out). But to all other "Big Choices" the books and comics are technically neutral and fitting in.

[Zulu_DFA]

Tell me, Iakus, is that what you mean?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 mars 2011 - 03:38 .

[SSV Enterprise]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Um, no.  The books and comics are NOT canonical.  Yes, I'm providing more links.

Citing forum pages and wiki talk pages with absolutely no developer comment proves nothing.

[Sidac]

squee913, uses the same arguements that ive been using since launch. He makes a video. YAAAAY. Just remember kiddies, just because something isnt explained to you DOESNT MEAN ITS A PLOT HOLE!

If he does lurk the forums, damn good video.

Modifié par Sidac, 19 mars 2011 - 03:54 .

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

I agree with everything above save the VS tagging along. That makes sense. What makes no sense is railing against Shepard for being a traitor, for abandoning what the Alliance stands for, etc. When clearly this is not a unique event. That they had, in fact, gone along with similar actions a couple of years ago.

SPEAKING OF DEBATES...

Anyway, I think as squee pointed out, the main issue is that for Mass Effect 1 the VS was with you there every step of the way, and had intimate knowledge regarding Saren's plans. When Shepard decides to break the lockdown, Ashley/Kaidan knows why he is doing it and is fully accepting of it.

As someone brought up earlier, if a person I cared about/loved came back from the dead (brought back by a terrorist organization), I cannot rightly say what my reaction would be. It could be anywhere from anger, to joy, to sorrow. Whatever we might say of Ashley's personality, I think it's unfair to her as a character to say her reaction did not make sense. We'd never seen her in such a situation before.

First, I mention Ashley mainly 'cause I typically save her on VIrmire (hey, she's a favorite) but everything I say applies equally to Kaidan.  The fact that their dialogues and reactions are virtually identical despite being very different characters speaks poorly of the writers' ability to reflect this.

At any rate, yes, the Survivor was there every step of the way and knew exactly why Shepard had to break the lockdown.  He or she knew why such drastic action had to be taken.  Now, two years later, here's Shepard, back from the dead and back to pulling crazy stunts again. 

a)  The VS had alreadty heard reports that Shep wasn't dead.  Yes, seeing is believing and the circumstances are undeniably weird, but this isn't a complete  suprise, after all

The VS only flies off the handle when Cerberus is brought up. Before that happens, the conversation goes more or less as I'd have expected it.  Shock.  Wonder, a bit of hurt, a lot of curiosoty.  Believe me, I've tried to navigate the conversation to avoid mentioning Cerberus, it can't be avoided, and hilarity ensues. You'd have thought the Collectors were wearing Cerberus logos on their...carapaces, I guess.

The VS should know (unless Shepard was played as a stone cold renegade) that "the Shepard I know would only do this under the most desperate of circumstances"  But does the VS listen to any reasons given, however pathetically phrased Bioware made them?  When Ash says "What did Cerberus do to you?" I actually wondered, given the options.  Then I recall that she thinks Garrus joined Cerberus too, and I realize it's jus the Idiot Ball talking

[Iakus]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Tell me, Iakus, is that what you mean?

Umm, my first reaction would be to say "Behind those crates"  But I don't think that's the answer you're looking for...

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Rekkampum wrote...

Every now and then iakus and I get into a huge discussion about something. The first one I remember was over the credibility of the VS on one of Sable Phoenix's threads. I've been slacking though. 

A formidable opponent, to be sure. The man knows how to raise the hand of friendship while simultaneously wielding words as one might use a sword. A most deadly combination.

Meh, the only difference between me and any number of other debaters here is I realize that questioning a person's taste, intelligence, and/or parentage doesn't encourage them to listen to your arguments.  Too many otherwise interesting debates get bogged down in attacking the person rather than the arguement.

Write like the developers are reading your posts.  And you have to convince them that you're right.  Who knows?Maybe they are?  And maybe you can.  And maybe the horse will sing.

Modifié par iakus, 19 mars 2011 - 06:25 .

[Zulu_DFA]

iakus wrote...

Umm, my first reaction would be to say "Behind those crates"  But I don't think that's the answer you're looking for...

Yes, that's actually a rhetorical question meant to point that the serviceman who is being disrespectful and insubordinate is also personally not squared away enough to have any credibility by military standards and needs to STFU. I mean this whole situation that a non-com even dares to open her mouth to criticize in the face an officer, who not only outranks her by far, but is supposedly a few years older and longer in the service, is quite... bizarre to start with. This should have entered Ashley's head long before any kind of personal experiences under Shepard, but it apparently didn't. So we've got to assume, she's just outta her mind all the way. It's a bit less so with Kaidan, who is just one rank below Shepard, but that's when his liberal views play out, I guess.

As for BioWare's cutting corners by melding the VS into one personality, yes, it's no good. But one has to admit that there are so much more outrageous corner-cutting in other parts of the ME2 plot, that Horizon is kind of insignificant.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 mars 2011 - 06:50 .

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

iakus wrote...

Umm, my first reaction would be to say "Behind those crates"  But I don't think that's the answer you're looking for...

Yes, that's actually a rhetorical question meant to point that the serviceman who is being disrespectful and insubordinate is also personally not squared away enough to have any credibility by military standards and needs to STFU. I mean this whole situation that a non-com even dares to open her mouth to criticize in the face an officer, who not only outranks her by far, but is supposedly a few years older and longer in the service, is quite... bizarre to start with. This should have entered Ashley's head long before any kind of personal experiences under Shepard, but it apparently didn't. So we've got to assume, she's just outta her mind all the way. It's a bit less so with Kaidan, who is just one rank below Shepard, but that's when his liberal views play out, I guess.

As for BioWare's cutting corners by melding the VS into one personality, yes, it's no good. But one has to admit that there are so much more outrageous corner-cutting in other parts of the ME2 plot, that Horizon is kind of insignificant.

Yes the military-discipline aspect is one layer of many that are bizarre about Horizon I agree, even if he's no longer technically in the Alliance.

[JKoopman]

piemanz wrote...

My point was that just going after Saren alone was enough to justify their actions even without the threat of the reapers.

So stealing an Alliance warship to help Shepard chase after one rogue Spectre on some sort of personal vendetta is justifiable, but chasing down the aliens that just abducted half a human colony alongside the man who just saved the other half and yourself in the process isn't?

Again, not saying I wanted the VS to join Shepard in ME2. Just saying it's inconsistent.

[squee913]

JKoopman wrote...

piemanz wrote...

My point was that just going after Saren alone was enough to justify their actions even without the threat of the reapers.

So stealing an Alliance warship to help Shepard chase after one rogue Spectre on some sort of personal vendetta is justifiable, but chasing down the aliens that just abducted half a human colony alongside the man who just saved the other half and yourself in the process isn't?

Again, not saying I wanted the VS to join Shepard in ME2. Just saying it's inconsistent.

How in the world is chasing down a rogue specter who has attacked a colony, tried to breed a Krogan army, acquired a very powerful warship (reaper or not), and shown on several occasions a willingness to hurt many many people a personal vendetta? The VS had seen what Saren was capable of, and had every reason to believe that even if the reapers were not true, that what ever he was planning would not bode well for the galaxy. 
On the other hand, they had no idea who attacked the colony on Horizon. They even stated that they feel Cerberus may be behind it. They are not even sure Shepard is the same shepard anymore. If I were in their shoes, I would not go with him. I would report back to the alliance and stick with people I know are on the right side. No matter what they have been through with Shep, the simple fact is that they don't trust him, and they have every justification to feel that way. 

[Almostfaceman]

squee913 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

piemanz wrote...

My point was that just going after Saren alone was enough to justify their actions even without the threat of the reapers.

So stealing an Alliance warship to help Shepard chase after one rogue Spectre on some sort of personal vendetta is justifiable, but chasing down the aliens that just abducted half a human colony alongside the man who just saved the other half and yourself in the process isn't?

Again, not saying I wanted the VS to join Shepard in ME2. Just saying it's inconsistent.

How in the world is chasing down a rogue specter who has attacked a colony, tried to breed a Krogan army, acquired a very powerful warship (reaper or not), and shown on several occasions a willingness to hurt many many people a personal vendetta? The VS had seen what Saren was capable of, and had every reason to believe that even if the reapers were not true, that what ever he was planning would not bode well for the galaxy. 
On the other hand, they had no idea who attacked the colony on Horizon. They even stated that they feel Cerberus may be behind it. They are not even sure Shepard is the same shepard anymore. If I were in their shoes, I would not go with him. I would report back to the alliance and stick with people I know are on the right side. No matter what they have been through with Shep, the simple fact is that they don't trust him, and they have every justification to feel that way. 

If you check the dialogue, the VS doesn't deny the aliens are Collectors.  The VS asks a lot of "what if" questions - then doesn't stick around to hear the answers or check any evidence Shepard may have.  This doesn't make sense, since this is why the VS is sent to Horizon in the first place - to investigate Cerberus's possible involvement with the missing colonists.

VS: Anderson, I checked out what's going on on Horizon.
Anderson:  Well what did you find out?
VS: Nothing.  I asked Shepard a bunch of questions then I left before anything Shepard told me could be proved or disproved - because he's a big weenie head and is working for Cerberus!
Anderson: Soooo, Shepard was unwilling to share data with you?
VS:  I didn't even stay long enough to explore that option. I'm sooooo angry with that poo poo head!
Anderson: Did Shepard threaten you or try to kidnap you?
VS: No!!!  And he should have!  I like it rough!  Wait....
Anderson: *facepalm*

[CroGamer002]

Almostfaceman wrote...

VS: Anderson, I checked out what's going on on Horizon.
Anderson:  Well what did you find out?
VS: Nothing.  I asked Shepard a bunch of questions then I left before anything Shepard told me could be proved or disproved - because he's a big weenie head and is working for Cerberus!
Anderson: Soooo, Shepard was unwilling to share data with you?
VS:  I didn't even stay long enough to explore that option. I'm sooooo angry with that poo poo head!
Anderson: Did Shepard threaten you or try to kidnap you?
VS: No!!!  And he should have!  I like it rough!  Wait....
Anderson: *facepalm*

:D:D:D:D:D


God we need to have Anderson to facepalm in ME3!

[piemanz]

Almostfaceman wrote...

If you check the dialogue, the VS doesn't deny the aliens are Collectors.  The VS asks a lot of "what if" questions - then doesn't stick around to hear the answers or check any evidence Shepard may have.  This doesn't make sense, since this is why the VS is sent to Horizon in the first place - to investigate Cerberus's possible involvement with the missing colonists.

VS: Anderson, I checked out what's going on on Horizon.
Anderson:  Well what did you find out?
VS: Nothing.  I asked Shepard a bunch of questions then I left before anything Shepard told me could be proved or disproved - because he's a big weenie head and is working for Cerberus!
Anderson: Soooo, Shepard was unwilling to share data with you?
VS:  I didn't even stay long enough to explore that option. I'm sooooo angry with that poo poo head!
Anderson: Did Shepard threaten you or try to kidnap you?
VS: No!!!  And he should have!  I like it rough!  Wait....
Anderson: *facepalm*

Hehe..i like that.

But consider this.
The VS says on horizon "Alliance intel said cerberus could be behind our missing colonies" "We got a tip this one could be next", meaning horizon.

Think about it, TIM admits that he set up the attack on Horizon by leaking the wharabouts of  the VS to the collectors.I think it's a fairly safe bet he also tipped Alliance intel off on Horizon being the next colony to get hit.

To me it seems the Alliance were onto TIM on some level and thought all they needed was the attack on horizon to prove it.And since TIM later admits he set it up you could see how they would come to this conclusion if Alliance intel was already onto him.

With this in mind the VS mision parameters were not to investigate cerberus at all.The investigation was wether or not the Collectors would attack Horizon, which they did, confirming the Alliance and VS's suspicions.

Modifié par piemanz, 19 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[JKoopman]

Almostfaceman wrote...

squee913 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

piemanz wrote...

My point was that just going after Saren alone was enough to justify their actions even without the threat of the reapers.

So stealing an Alliance warship to help Shepard chase after one rogue Spectre on some sort of personal vendetta is justifiable, but chasing down the aliens that just abducted half a human colony alongside the man who just saved the other half and yourself in the process isn't?

Again, not saying I wanted the VS to join Shepard in ME2. Just saying it's inconsistent.

How in the world is chasing down a rogue specter who has attacked a colony, tried to breed a Krogan army, acquired a very powerful warship (reaper or not), and shown on several occasions a willingness to hurt many many people a personal vendetta? The VS had seen what Saren was capable of, and had every reason to believe that even if the reapers were not true, that what ever he was planning would not bode well for the galaxy. 
On the other hand, they had no idea who attacked the colony on Horizon. They even stated that they feel Cerberus may be behind it. They are not even sure Shepard is the same shepard anymore. If I were in their shoes, I would not go with him. I would report back to the alliance and stick with people I know are on the right side. No matter what they have been through with Shep, the simple fact is that they don't trust him, and they have every justification to feel that way. 

If you check the dialogue, the VS doesn't deny the aliens are Collectors.  The VS asks a lot of "what if" questions - then doesn't stick around to hear the answers or check any evidence Shepard may have.  This doesn't make sense, since this is why the VS is sent to Horizon in the first place - to investigate Cerberus's possible involvement with the missing colonists.

VS: Anderson, I checked out what's going on on Horizon.
Anderson:  Well what did you find out?
VS: Nothing.  I asked Shepard a bunch of questions then I left before anything Shepard told me could be proved or disproved - because he's a big weenie head and is working for Cerberus!
Anderson: Soooo, Shepard was unwilling to share data with you?
VS:  I didn't even stay long enough to explore that option. I'm sooooo angry with that poo poo head!
Anderson: Did Shepard threaten you or try to kidnap you?
VS: No!!!  And he should have!  I like it rough!  Wait....
Anderson: *facepalm*

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?
VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?
VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?
VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?
VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.
Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...
Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.
Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?
VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.
Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?
VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS: *salutes*
Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turns to leave*
Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

Modifié par JKoopman, 19 mars 2011 - 08:38 .

[Zulu_DFA]

piemanz wrote...

The VS says on horizon "Alliance intel said cerberus could be behind our missing colonies" "We got a tip this one could be next", meaning horizon.

Think about it, TIM admits that he set up the attack on Horizon by leaking the wharabouts of  the VS to the collectors.I think it's a fairly safe bet he also tipped Alliance intel off on Horizon being the next colony to get hit.

To me it seems the Alliance were onto TIM on some level and thought all they needed was the attack on horizon to prove it.

The Collectors were NOT interested in the VS. Only in Shepard. Otherwise TIM wouldn't be able to calculate the precise timing of the operation.

piemanz wrote...

And since TIM later admits he set it up you could see how they would come to this conclusion if Alliance intel was already onto him.

With this in mind the VS mision parameters were not to investigate cerberus at all.The investigation was wether or not the Collectors would attack Horizon, which they did, confirming the Alliances suspicions.

Can't see the logic here. I'm pretty sure Cerberus was on the top of Anderson's "suspect list" - because that was what TIM fed him with, plus that Shepard would play a part in this, so Anderson instructed the VS accordingly.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 mars 2011 - 08:51 .

[Dexi]

JKoopman wrote...
VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?
VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?
VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?
VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?
VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.
Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...
Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.
Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?
VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.
Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?
VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS: *salutes*
Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turns to leave*
Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

If it didn't happen like this I'd be quite surprised and upset... 

[Almostfaceman]

piemanz wrote...

With this in mind the VS surivivors mision parameter were not to investigate cerberus at all.The investigation was wether or not the Collectors would attack Horizon, which they did.

Except this directly contradicts what the VS says - that they're there to investigate Cerberus involvement with the colony disappearances.

[JKoopman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

piemanz wrote...

The VS says on horizon "Alliance intel said cerberus could be behind our missing colonies" "We got a tip this one could be next", meaning horizon.

Think about it, TIM admits that he set up the attack on Horizon by leaking the wharabouts of  the VS to the collectors.I think it's a fairly safe bet he also tipped Alliance intel off on Horizon being the next colony to get hit.

To me it seems the Alliance were onto TIM on some level and thought all they needed was the attack on horizon to prove it.

The Collectors were NOT interested in the VS. Only in Shepard. Otherwise TIM wouldn't be able to calculate the precise timing of the
operation.

piemanz wrote...

And since TIM later admits he set it up you could see how they would come to this conclusion if Alliance intel was already onto him.

With this in mind the VS mision parameters were not to investigate cerberus at all.The investigation was wether or not the Collectors would attack Horizon, which they did, confirming the Alliances suspicions.

Can't see the logic here. I'm pretty sure Cerberus was on the top of Anderson's "suspect list" - because that was what TIM fed him with, plus that Shepard would play a part in this, so Anderson instructed the VS accordingly.

FYI, the Collectors were interested in Shepard as well as anyone connected to Shepard. This includes your old crew. The Collectors didn't come to Horizon to lure Shepard into some trap. The Collectors weren't expecting Shepard to be there at all. The Collectors came to Horizon specifically for Kaidan/Ashley.

Cerberus was so quick on the scene because TIM suspected the Collectors might come to Horizon looking for Kaidan/Ashley and so was monitoring the colony. As soon as communications went down, he sent Shepard in to investigate.

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?
VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?
VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?
VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?
VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.
Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...
Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.
Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?
VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.
Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?
VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS: *salutes*
Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turns to leave*
Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

Well done!  But mine was funnier... j/k