1198 réponses à ce sujet

[JKoopman]

Almostfaceman wrote...
Well done!  But mine was funnier... j/k 

Yours was short and sweet. I tend to ramble. 

[Zulu_DFA]

JKoopman wrote...

FYI, the Collectors were interested in Shepard as well as anyone connected to Shepard.

Source?

TIM. Never mind he says "I suspected", "you or  people connected to you"... He never bullsh*tted Shepard once. Take Liara... Oh, wait.

JKoopman wrote...

This includes your old crew. The Collectors didn't come to Horizon to lure Shepard into some trap. The Collectors weren't expecting Shepard to be there at all. The Collectors came to Horizon specifically for Kaidan/Ashley.

Why did they arrive no sooner than Mordin invented his mega mosquito repellent? How did TIM know the time they'd arrive?

You see, TIM had to assume, that if the Collectors were interested in the VS, they would attack as soon as the VS was "in range", Shadow Broker information network and all.

JKoopman wrote...

Cerberus was so quick on the scene because TIM suspected the Collectors might come to Horizon looking for Kaidan/Ashley and so was monitoring the colony. As soon as communications went down, he sent Shepard in to investigate.

The VS had to be on Horizon for quite a while by then. Install the hardware, build a power supply source, takes time.

So yeah, Cerberus was so quick on the scene, because Cerberus had full control of the situation from the get go:

Tip off Anderson with no presise timetable - guns get set up - wait till Mordin invents stuff - tip off the Collectors on a short notice - send in Shepard.

The only way TIM could really lure the Collectors was if he fully
controlled the bait. He did, as that bait was Shepard and only Shepard.

Besides, what use would the Collectors make of the VS?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 mars 2011 - 09:33 .

[Iakus]

JKoopman wrote...

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?
VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?
VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?
VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?
VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.
Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...
Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.
Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?
VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.
Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?
VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS: *salutes*
Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turns to leave*
Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

Thank you, JKoopman, for giving me my laugh for the day. 

Modifié par iakus, 19 mars 2011 - 09:16 .

[piemanz]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Source?

TIM. Never mind he says "I suspected", "you or  people connected to you"... He never bullsh*tted Shepard once. Take Liara... Oh, wait.

TIM outright tells you in a cutscene that he leaked the location of the VS to the collectors to see if they would attack.He then hypothesises that they could be after the VS to get to shepard.

This is also the reason why he's so quick to identify the attack on horizon...because he set it up and was obviously keeping a close eye on the colony.

Modifié par piemanz, 19 mars 2011 - 09:27 .

[piemanz]

Almostfaceman wrote...

piemanz wrote...

With this in mind the VS surivivors mision parameter were not to investigate cerberus at all.The investigation was wether or not the Collectors would attack Horizon, which they did.

Except this directly contradicts what the VS says - that they're there to investigate Cerberus involvement with the colony disappearances.

What could they be investigating on horizon that warrants defense turrets?.It's obvious the Alliance were onto TIM setting up the attack on Horizon.So they sent the VS to set up a defence grid and wait and see, playing right into TIM hands.

TIM gets what he wants with the attack on Horizon, confirmation that they are after shepard personelly.And the alliance gets what they were after, Confirmation that Cerbrus set up the attack.

There was no investigation on Horizon before the attack...The attack WAS the investigation.

[Almostfaceman]

piemanz wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

piemanz wrote...

With this in mind the VS surivivors mision parameter were not to investigate cerberus at all.The investigation was wether or not the Collectors would attack Horizon, which they did.

Except this directly contradicts what the VS says - that they're there to investigate Cerberus involvement with the colony disappearances.

What could they be investigating on horizon that warrants defense turrets?.It's obvious the Alliance were onto TIM setting up the attack on Horizon.So they sent the VS to set up a defence grid and wait and see, playing right into TIM hands.

TIM gets what he wants with the attack on Horizon, confirmation that they are after shepard personelly.And the alliance gets what they were after, Confirmation that Cerbrus set up the attack.

There was no investigation on Horizon before the attack...The attack WAS the investigation.

What could the defense towers be for?  A possible attack by Cerberus.  The VS never confirms that Cerberus sicc'd the Collectors on Horizon - a point made later when you talk to Anderson about meeting the VS.  Anderson says the VS report confirms the COLLECTORS are behind the colonist attacks.

Edit: If the Alliance really did come to the conclusion that Cerberus was behind the colonist attacks, they would arrest Shepard at the next best opportunity.  

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 19 mars 2011 - 09:47 .

[Gentleman Moogle]

iakus wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?
VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?
VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?
VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?
VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.
Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...
Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.
Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?
VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.
Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?
VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS: *salutes*
Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turns to leave*
Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

Thank you, JKoopman, for giving me my laugh for the day. 

Get this man a position at Bioware, STAT!

Massive lulz, man. Massive lulz. 

[Zulu_DFA]

piemanz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Source?

TIM. Never mind he says "I suspected", "you or  people connected to you"... He never bullsh*tted Shepard once. Take Liara... Oh, wait.

TIM outright tells you in a cutscene that he leaked the location of the VS to the collectors to see if they would attack.He then hypothesises that they could be after the VS to get to shepard.

No, it's actually Shepard who (optionally, if he wants to be combative) brings that up. TIM does not outright dismiss it for any of his pervert-o-manipulative reasons. However in the mission summary he does not mention that "Collectors' interest in Shepard's former assosicates confirmed", he only writes down that the "Collectors' interest in Shepard is confirmed".

piemanz wrote...

This is also the reason why he's so quick to identify the attack on horizon...because he set it up and was obviously keeping a close eye on the colony.

How keeping a close eye on the colony would help if the adversary dropped out of FTL right above the planet, and Shepard was in the middle of recruiting Subject Zero on the other side of the Galaxy, or Mordin's countermeasures weren't about to be ready yet?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 mars 2011 - 09:52 .

[Almostfaceman]

piemanz wrote...

There was no investigation on Horizon before the attack...The attack WAS the investigation.

The defense towers were merely prep for whatever was attacking the colonies.  Ash was there to see Who was attacking the colonies.  She suspected it was Cerberus.  Hence it's an investigation to see if their suspicions are correct.

[piemanz]

Almostfaceman wrote...

piemanz wrote...

There was no investigation on Horizon before the attack...The attack WAS the investigation.

The defense towers were merely prep for whatever was attacking the colonies.  Ash was there to see Who was attacking the colonies.  She suspected it was Cerberus.  Hence it's an investigation to see if their suspicions are correct.

Exactly..

So why would the VS need to grill sheperd about Cerberus when they already knew it was the collectors.

Modifié par piemanz, 19 mars 2011 - 10:06 .

[piemanz]

Double post.

Modifié par piemanz, 19 mars 2011 - 10:05 .

[Almostfaceman]

piemanz wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

piemanz wrote...

There was no investigation on Horizon before the attack...The attack WAS the investigation.

The defense towers were merely prep for whatever was attacking the colonies.  Ash was there to see Who was attacking the colonies.  She suspected it was Cerberus.  Hence it's an investigation to see if their suspicions are correct.

Exactly..

So why would the VS need to ask sheperd more questions about Cerberus when she already knew it was the collectors.

Are you deliberately ignoring all the other points made in this thread?  We're covering ground already covered here.  Just because Ash see's and recognizes that the attack is from the Collectors - this does not mean she shouldn't bring back evidence or more data.  Data and evidence (like the swarm sample) that Shepard has.  Instead of trying to find out more about what her eyes just told her, she goes off on some 10 year old temper tantrum about Shepard working with Cerberus.  If she takes a couple minutes to actually talk to Shepard, he can tell her that TiM has found data about how the Reapers are connected and they can then work together to investigate that.  Walking away from Shepard in a huff simply does not make sense.

[Bourne Endeavor]

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

VS: Anderson, I checked out what's going on on Horizon.
Anderson:  Well what did you find out?
VS: Nothing.  I asked Shepard a bunch of questions then I left before anything Shepard told me could be proved or disproved - because he's a big weenie head and is working for Cerberus!
Anderson: Soooo, Shepard was unwilling to share data with you?
VS:  I didn't even stay long enough to explore that option. I'm sooooo angry with that poo poo head!
Anderson: Did Shepard threaten you or try to kidnap you?
VS: No!!!  And he should have!  I like it rough!  Wait....
Anderson: *facepalm*
[/quote]

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?
VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?
VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?
VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?
VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.
Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...
Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.
Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?
VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.
Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?
VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS: *salutes*
Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turns to leave*
Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!
[/quote]

Eyes literally watered from the hilarity of this post.

[squee913]

While JKoopman's post made me giggle, it gives the impression that the VS somehow came up with the idea that Cerberus was behind the attacks on their own. The Alliance felt this way. That's why they sent the VS. It's not like the VS was just throwing out random ideas.

No one is arguing that the VS behaved like a dick. They Should have given Shep time to explain instead of trowing an emotional fit. I think everyone agrees on that point.

The argument then becomes whether or not this "fit" is so out of character that it creates a plot hole, or plot inconsistency. Many of you feel that the fact the VS did not talk to Shepard and be more understanding goes against the VS personality to the point that it makes no sense. The problem is that this expects a controlled and calm response in a situation that would make that very difficult. They were just frozen by a bug and basically stood around watching other people get attack and possibly collected. They just found out over 300,000 people, that they felt responsible for, have been taken to god knows where. They just met Shepard after 2 years of believing they were dead. They may have been told Shep was alive again, but being told and actually seeing are 2 different things. The emotions of seeing Shepard again are piled on top of the fact that they are trying to cope with the very traumatic events that they have just been through that would send some people to therapy for several years. Then Shepard confirms that he is working with the bad guys.

After all of that, you still expect a calm and rational response from the VS, as if they were just chatting over tea. None of us know how we would have reacted in the same situation, and a lot of us would be anything but calm and rational. We know that both of the VS have had trouble with their emotions before. We saw how shaken up Ash was over losing her squad on Eden Prime. Now she just lost 300,000 people that (while she may not have been ordered to protect) she probably felt responsible for. We all heard about Kadian loosing it on Jump Zero when the Turian messed with his girl. I am not saying that these are not unreasonable reactions to these events, simply that the events on horizon are just as traumatic. After all that they had been through in the past few hours, I do not feel that the way that reacted was so far out of character to be considered a plot inconsistency. It was just them being a dick!

[Almostfaceman]

squee913 wrote...
After all of that, you still expect a calm and rational response from the VS, as if they were just chatting over tea.  

Actually no, we just expect them to act like the professional investigator and soldier they're supposed to be.  High pressure situations are no stranger to Ash or Kaiden and they keep their cool over and over.  It's not in character for them to totally lose their professionalism.  Whether calm or not, their duty is to investigate.  And they fail to do so.

[Whatever42]

Almostfaceman wrote...

squee913 wrote...
After all of that, you still expect a calm and rational response from the VS, as if they were just chatting over tea.  

Actually no, we just expect them to act like the professional investigator and soldier they're supposed to be.  High pressure situations are no stranger to Ash or Kaiden and they keep their cool over and over.  It's not in character for them to totally lose their professionalism.  Whether calm or not, their duty is to investigate.  And they fail to do so.

The game isn't going to have the VS pepper Shepard with questions that Shepard already knows the answer to. That wouldn't advance the story or any of the characters. Again, it may be more realistic, it's just not appropriate for the medium.

The VS is friends with Shepard, they mutinied together, they might feel comfortable enough to yell at Shepard. Shepard isn't their commanding officer. Shepard is detached from the Alliance at the very best. So I think that's fine.  And the VS is not very good at expressing themselves so that they walked away leaving Shepard thinking WTF is not out of character either.

I agree that the scene is not very satisfying. And I do think there should have been a little more discussion - it was a highly antipated reunion for a lot of players and a "WTF happened there" is not a very nice thing to throw at us. However, I don't think its a plot hole or out of character.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 19 mars 2011 - 11:34 .

[Almostfaceman]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

squee913 wrote...
After all of that, you still expect a calm and rational response from the VS, as if they were just chatting over tea.  

Actually no, we just expect them to act like the professional investigator and soldier they're supposed to be.  High pressure situations are no stranger to Ash or Kaiden and they keep their cool over and over.  It's not in character for them to totally lose their professionalism.  Whether calm or not, their duty is to investigate.  And they fail to do so.

The game isn't going to have the VS pepper Shepard with questions that Shepard already knows the answer to. That wouldn't advance the story or any of the characters. Again, it may be more realistic, it's just not appropriate for the medium.

The VS is friends with Shepard, they mutinied together, they might feel comfortable enough to yell at Shepard. Shepard isn't their commanding officer. Shepard is detached from the Alliance at the very best. So I think that's fine.  And the VS is not very good at expressing themselves so that they walked away leaving Shepard thinking WTF is not out of character either.

I agree that the scene is not very satisfying. And I do think there should have been a little more discussion - it was a highly antipated reunion for a lot of players and a "WTF happened there" is not a very nice thing to throw at us. However, I don't think its a plot hole or out of character.

Familiar with Shepard or not, it stretches believability for the VS to act like a 10 year old and forget they have a job to do.  The poorly written scene puts them in a position for us to expect them to behave differently than they end up behaving.  That's the point.  It's not just a "plot hole" it is an example of what not to do when writing a video game plot.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 19 mars 2011 - 11:47 .

[FataliTensei]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Apparently, there's another YouTube user working on giving counter-arguments. Interesting so far.

he makes alot of good points, Mass Effect 2 would have been a great game if he had been in charge

[squee913]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

squee913 wrote...
After all of that, you still expect a calm and rational response from the VS, as if they were just chatting over tea.  

Actually no, we just expect them to act like the professional investigator and soldier they're supposed to be.  High pressure situations are no stranger to Ash or Kaiden and they keep their cool over and over.  It's not in character for them to totally lose their professionalism.  Whether calm or not, their duty is to investigate.  And they fail to do so.

The game isn't going to have the VS pepper Shepard with questions that Shepard already knows the answer to. That wouldn't advance the story or any of the characters. Again, it may be more realistic, it's just not appropriate for the medium.

The VS is friends with Shepard, they mutinied together, they might feel comfortable enough to yell at Shepard. Shepard isn't their commanding officer. Shepard is detached from the Alliance at the very best. So I think that's fine.  And the VS is not very good at expressing themselves so that they walked away leaving Shepard thinking WTF is not out of character either.

I agree that the scene is not very satisfying. And I do think there should have been a little more discussion - it was a highly antipated reunion for a lot of players and a "WTF happened there" is not a very nice thing to throw at us. However, I don't think its a plot hole or out of character.

Familiar with Shepard or not, it stretches believability for the VS to act like a 10 year old and forget they have a job to do.  The poorly written scene puts them in a position for us to expect them to behave differently than they end up behaving.  That's the point.  It's not just a "plot hole" it is an example of what not to do when writing a video game plot.

Kadian maybe, but I think Ash acts like a 10 year old all the time!!

[drwells123]

JKoopman wrote...
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?

Genius. The whole thing.

[Almostfaceman]

squee913 wrote...

Kadian maybe, but I think Ash acts like a 10 year old all the time!!

LOL, well then you support my argument, since it would be a huge plot hole to send a 10 year old to investigate things of galactic importance. 

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 19 mars 2011 - 11:53 .

[Whatever42]

squee913 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Familiar with Shepard or not, it stretches believability for the VS to act like a 10 year old and forget they have a job to do.  The poorly written scene puts them in a position for us to expect them to behave differently than they end up behaving.  That's the point.  It's not just a "plot hole" it is an example of what not to do when writing a video game plot.

Kadian maybe, but I think Ash acts like a 10 year old all the time!!

Yeah, Ash is a bit of a hothead.   I think it probably is somewhat out of character for Kaidan. Ash, though, often acted unprofessional in ME1. Kaidan even reprimanded her couple times.

But I totally agree that the scene wasn't well written and was unsatisfying. I'm more pissed off that Shepard couldn't interact more usefully but just stood there like a lump. I just think that the VS being angry and refusing to join Shepard is in-character.

[squee913]

Almostfaceman wrote...

squee913 wrote...
After all of that, you still expect a calm and rational response from the VS, as if they were just chatting over tea.  

Actually no, we just expect them to act like the professional investigator and soldier they're supposed to be.  High pressure situations are no stranger to Ash or Kaiden and they keep their cool over and over.  It's not in character for them to totally lose their professionalism.  Whether calm or not, their duty is to investigate.  And they fail to do so.

You mean like the time they Shouted, "You bastard! You set us up!" To Counselor Udina in front of the entire council? I would love to see the military regs that make that little out burst ok. As I said, emotional responses are not out of character for them.

[TelexFerra]

I'm about 40% of the way through the first video. I think some of your responses are good but you seem to be missing the actual points of his arguments.I have two examples here:

1: Smudboy's opinion that Shepard's body could not have survived.

While this is science fiction, we are being told things contrary to our understanding of the laws of physics. While a lot of science fiction does this, these retcons of physics are usually discussed and explained in a semi-plausible way. According to physics, there is no way that Shepard's body could have lasted that fall and we are not presented with any explanation as to how it did. Your theory that he could have had a mass effect generator is flawed. (sorry to tell you, don't mean to sound rude or anything :S) Objects in free fall accelerate regardless of their mass, and air friction (acceleration against gravity) is lesser than the acceleration due to gravity and is also not dependent on the object's mass. Smudboy is saying that Shepard's death and revival would be more acceptable with some sort of explanation, even a fictitious one.

2: Smudboy's belief that you don't kill of a protagonist just to revive him/her instantly.

Smudboy isn't saying that it can't happen, but he is, rather, analyzing the effect that such a thing has on the player. You are right that Bioware had the right to add Shepard's death and revival ino the game, but Smudboy isn't challenging that point. Smudboy is saying that Shepard's revival has a poor effect on the player because it does not give the player any greater insight into Shepard's character. There didn't need to be a magical creature like Lorien there to guide him, but Shepard could have had a few Prothean visions, maybe even the one we saw later in the game that showed the Collectors? That would have been excellent foreshadowing. Smudboy's argument, and one I happen to agree with, is that Shepard's death and revival only detracts from the narrative by confusing the player and trivializing something as big as Shepard's death.

Modifié par TelexFerra, 20 mars 2011 - 12:05 .

[Almostfaceman]

squee913 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

squee913 wrote...
After all of that, you still expect a calm and rational response from the VS, as if they were just chatting over tea.  

Actually no, we just expect them to act like the professional investigator and soldier they're supposed to be.  High pressure situations are no stranger to Ash or Kaiden and they keep their cool over and over.  It's not in character for them to totally lose their professionalism.  Whether calm or not, their duty is to investigate.  And they fail to do so.

You mean like the time they Shouted, "You bastard! You set us up!" To Counselor Udina in front of the entire council? I would love to see the military regs that make that little out burst ok. As I said, emotional responses are not out of character for them.

You equate her yelling at Udina with being grossly incompetent?  An emotional outburst is one thing.  Letting that freeze you into inaction is another.  That same person who yells that goes on to help successfully further investigate and stop Saren.