1198 réponses à ce sujet

[squee913]

Almostfaceman wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

squee913 wrote...
After all of that, you still expect a calm and rational response from the VS, as if they were just chatting over tea.  

Actually no, we just expect them to act like the professional investigator and soldier they're supposed to be.  High pressure situations are no stranger to Ash or Kaiden and they keep their cool over and over.  It's not in character for them to totally lose their professionalism.  Whether calm or not, their duty is to investigate.  And they fail to do so.

You mean like the time they Shouted, "You bastard! You set us up!" To Counselor Udina in front of the entire council? I would love to see the military regs that make that little out burst ok. As I said, emotional responses are not out of character for them.

You equate her yelling at Udina with being grossly incompetent?  An emotional outburst is one thing.  Letting that freeze you into inaction is another.  That same person who yells that goes on to help successfully further investigate and stop Saren.

The point is that the VS is not fantastic at dealing with emotional outbursts. And for a soldier, that little outburst is a lot less excusable than how she treated Shepard on horizon. Soldiers being dicks to friends, even commanding officers that are friends is one thing. Soldiers shouting at someone so high up on the food chain is seen as unforgivable in the military. Good god, I can't even begin to think of what would have happened to me when I was in the military if I had done something like that.

[squee913]

TelexFerra wrote...

I'm about 40% of the way through the first video. I think some of your responses are good but you seem to be missing the actual points of his arguments.I have two examples here:

1: Smudboy's opinion that Shepard's body could not have survived.

While this is science fiction, we are being told things contrary to our understanding of the laws of physics. While a lot of science fiction does this, these retcons of physics are usually discussed and explained in a semi-plausible way. According to physics, there is no way that Shepard's body could have lasted that fall and we are not presented with any explanation as to how it did. Your theory that he could have had a mass effect generator is flawed. (sorry to tell you, don't mean to sound rude or anything :S) Objects in free fall accelerate regardless of their mass, and air friction (acceleration against gravity) is lesser than the acceleration due to gravity and is also not dependent on the object's mass. Smudboy is saying that Shepard's death and revival would be more acceptable with some sort of explanation, even a fictitious one.

2: Smudboy's belief that you don't kill of a protagonist just to revive him/her instantly.

Smudboy isn't saying that it can't happen, but he is, rather, analyzing the effect that such a thing has on the player. You are right that Bioware had the right to add Shepard's death and revival ino the game, but Smudboy isn't challenging that point. Smudboy is saying that Shepard's revival has a poor effect on the player because it does not give the player any greater insight into Shepard's character. There didn't need to be a magical creature like Lorien there to guide him, but Shepard could have had a few Prothean visions, maybe even the one we saw later in the game that showed the Collectors? That would have been excellent foreshadowing. Smudboy's argument, and one I happen to agree with, is that Shepard's death and revival only detracts from the narrative by confusing the player and trivializing something as big as Shepard's death.

As for the falling to the planet, It was pointed out to me that we did not about the composition of the planet and I actually retracted the point in the second video. I will agree that that is a bit of a plot hole However, changing the mass of an object is no less plausable than resurection and we are not given an explination of how that works either. Just a bunch of codex entries that explain the results of such a thing. There is nothing that explain how element zero works, only that it does, yet people are so willing to accept this, and not Shep's resurecttion when they are equally impossible.

As for point 2, Smud is stating that this cannot happen if you want a good story. My problem is that he is implying that there is no way to have a good story  unless you give the death and resurrection some sort of spiritual aspect. He is basically saying that it is more believable to have Shep brought back by magic than science.

[Almostfaceman]

squee913 wrote...

The point is that the VS is not fantastic at dealing with emotional outbursts. And for a soldier, that little outburst is a lot less excusable than how she treated Shepard on horizon. Soldiers being dicks to friends, even commanding officers that are friends is one thing. Soldiers shouting at someone so high up on the food chain is seen as unforgivable in the military. Good god, I can't even begin to think of what would have happened to me when I was in the military if I had done something like that.

I was in the military also.  I know what you mean.  My point is that despite emotional outbursts, Ash gets the job done.  Could have Udina locked her in the Stockade?  Sure.  He doesn't.  But Ash doesn't go off, get drunk, and abondon her post.  She sucks up the fact that Udina and the Council may be dooming everyone to a Reaper attack and she goes back to the ship ready for the next move.

This is what she should do, in character, like she has before.  She should suck up the fact she doesn't trust Cerberus and she should talk more with Shepard and learn what she can that furthers her investigation.  To think it "out of character" for her to do that is wrong in my opinion.  

We agree, the writers of the game should have never put her in that situation and they should have written something better.

[Iakus]

squee913 wrote...
After all of that, you still expect a calm and rational response from the VS, as if they were just chatting over tea. None of us know how we would have reacted in the same situation, and a lot of us would be anything but calm and rational. We know that both of the VS have had trouble with their emotions before. We saw how shaken up Ash was over losing her squad on Eden Prime. Now she just lost 300,000 people that (while she may not have been ordered to protect) she probably felt responsible for. We all heard about Kadian loosing it on Jump Zero when the Turian messed with his girl. I am not saying that these are not unreasonable reactions to these events, simply that the events on horizon are just as traumatic. After all that they had been through in the past few hours, I do not feel that the way that reacted was so far out of character to be considered a plot inconsistency. It was just them being a dick!

ACtualy...yeah.

Kaidan pretty much defines calm  and thoughtful.  As you learn in conversations with him, if there's one thing he learned in BAaT, it was to keep his emotions in check.  Because losing your temper can be, you know bad  for people around you (well, at least he didn't break Shep's neck with a biotic kick )

Ash, while definitely not subtle, and has no patience for political maneuvering, is a competant professional in dangerously stressful situations.  In ME 1 she lost her entire unit to the geth (a species humans have never encountered before then) including friend.  Not to mention all the civilian deaths.  But she managed to keep her cool uinder fire and deliver a coherent report to Shepard when they met up.

While it's within Ash's character, at least, to deliver angry outbursts, it's not in either's character to have an angry tantrum and storm off.  Particularly when there is clearly something major going down.

Oh and fyi, I think it's closer to 10,000 people lost on Horizon, 300k is closer to the total number of colonists thathave disappeared over the loast two years.  Still a huge number, but still...

[TelexFerra]

squee913 wrote...

TelexFerra wrote...

I'm about 40% of the way through the first video. I think some of your responses are good but you seem to be missing the actual points of his arguments.I have two examples here:

1: Smudboy's opinion that Shepard's body could not have survived.

While this is science fiction, we are being told things contrary to our understanding of the laws of physics. While a lot of science fiction does this, these retcons of physics are usually discussed and explained in a semi-plausible way. According to physics, there is no way that Shepard's body could have lasted that fall and we are not presented with any explanation as to how it did. Your theory that he could have had a mass effect generator is flawed. (sorry to tell you, don't mean to sound rude or anything :S) Objects in free fall accelerate regardless of their mass, and air friction (acceleration against gravity) is lesser than the acceleration due to gravity and is also not dependent on the object's mass. Smudboy is saying that Shepard's death and revival would be more acceptable with some sort of explanation, even a fictitious one.

2: Smudboy's belief that you don't kill of a protagonist just to revive him/her instantly.

Smudboy isn't saying that it can't happen, but he is, rather, analyzing the effect that such a thing has on the player. You are right that Bioware had the right to add Shepard's death and revival ino the game, but Smudboy isn't challenging that point. Smudboy is saying that Shepard's revival has a poor effect on the player because it does not give the player any greater insight into Shepard's character. There didn't need to be a magical creature like Lorien there to guide him, but Shepard could have had a few Prothean visions, maybe even the one we saw later in the game that showed the Collectors? That would have been excellent foreshadowing. Smudboy's argument, and one I happen to agree with, is that Shepard's death and revival only detracts from the narrative by confusing the player and trivializing something as big as Shepard's death.

As for the falling to the planet, It was pointed out to me that we did not about the composition of the planet and I actually retracted the point in the second video. I will agree that that is a bit of a plot hole However, changing the mass of an object is no less plausable than resurection and we are not given an explination of how that works either. Just a bunch of codex entries that explain the results of such a thing. There is nothing that explain how element zero works, only that it does, yet people are so willing to accept this, and not Shep's resurecttion when they are equally impossible.

As for point 2, Smud is stating that this cannot happen if you want a good story. My problem is that he is implying that there is no way to have a good story  unless you give the death and resurrection some sort of spiritual aspect. He is basically saying that it is more believable to have Shep brought back by magic than science.

1: But at leaast Bioware made an effort to explain the mass effect caused by element zero. While this involves suspension of disbelief as does all sci-fi, at least it was explained, albeit through impirical evidence and not necessarily a theoretical explanation. Shepard's resurection was just thrown at us without any sort of an attempt at an explanation.

2: Smud is saying that the death has to have some effect on the viewer. The video example he uses is a clip from the TNG episode "Tapestry" in which Captain Picard nearly dies and is led by Q into an alternate timeline in which he did not fight with a roudy group of aliens. This episode takes place almost entirely while Picard is dying or dead; in this time, the story conveys a moral lesson about taking risks without getting into spirituality whatsoever. We see Picard and our understanding of him grow during the episode. Picard's near-death experience has an effect on the viewer and has nothing to do with spirituality or magic, while Shepard's experience is just hollow and brief.

[squee913]

iakus wrote...

squee913 wrote...
After all of that, you still expect a calm and rational response from the VS, as if they were just chatting over tea. None of us know how we would have reacted in the same situation, and a lot of us would be anything but calm and rational. We know that both of the VS have had trouble with their emotions before. We saw how shaken up Ash was over losing her squad on Eden Prime. Now she just lost 300,000 people that (while she may not have been ordered to protect) she probably felt responsible for. We all heard about Kadian loosing it on Jump Zero when the Turian messed with his girl. I am not saying that these are not unreasonable reactions to these events, simply that the events on horizon are just as traumatic. After all that they had been through in the past few hours, I do not feel that the way that reacted was so far out of character to be considered a plot inconsistency. It was just them being a dick!

ACtualy...yeah.

Kaidan pretty much defines calm  and thoughtful.  As you learn in conversations with him, if there's one thing he learned in BAaT, it was to keep his emotions in check.  Because losing your temper can be, you know bad  for people around you (well, at least he didn't break Shep's neck with a biotic kick )

Ash, while definitely not subtle, and has no patience for political maneuvering, is a competant professional in dangerously stressful situations.  In ME 1 she lost her entire unit to the geth (a species humans have never encountered before then) including friend.  Not to mention all the civilian deaths.  But she managed to keep her cool uinder fire and deliver a coherent report to Shepard when they met up.

While it's within Ash's character, at least, to deliver angry outbursts, it's not in either's character to have an angry tantrum and storm off.  Particularly when there is clearly something major going down.

Oh and fyi, I think it's closer to 10,000 people lost on Horizon, 300k is closer to the total number of colonists thathave disappeared over the loast two years.  Still a huge number, but still...

according to the codex there are over 600,000 people in teh horizon colony and they state that half were taken.

[Bourne Endeavor]

squee913 wrote...

After all of that, you still expect a calm and rational response from the VS, as if they were just chatting over tea.

Not in the least, in fact I have vocally supported their outburst for precisely those conclusions. They are openly welcome and even encouraged to be antagonistic upon the initial reveal of Shepard having any association with Cerberus. This does not excuse the horrendously illogical nonsense spewed out of their mouth. There is a fine line between irrationality and absolute incompetence, and the VS lept over it.

Partially blame lies with Shepard, as his/her dialogue is equally atrocious and could be reasonably cited the catalyst to the VS' hostile reaction. I would not fault someone who was mildly miffed when their former lover returns from the dead and can only muster up the phrase, "How have you been?" Frankly, I would wager a good number of women might slap Male Shepard for such a remark under those circumstances.

Being suspicious has merit however blaming them for the Horizon assault is shortsighted stupidity and bias. Even an irrational individual would not settle upon such an opinion due to the sheer idiocy. They just witnessed from a first hand perspective Cerberus assisting the colony and thereby supporting Shepard and Garrus' statement.

Horizon could have been handled in any number of ways devoid of gross deviation from the core that was presented. In actuality, if you removed moronic statements such as calling Shepard a traitor, they scene would be far less egregious.

For comparison sake, look at the overwhelming difference between Tali and VS' response. Tali had even less knowledge than VS when she first came in contact with Shepard. In fact, the extent was her former Commander was alive and now seemingly in leagues with Cerberus. She displayed a plausible reaction: shock, suspicious, bewilderment and curiosity. The difference is she took Shepard's word on faith based on her admiration of his/her character and prior accomplishes.

In essence, two aliens (Tali and Garrus) demonstrated more loyalty, respect and faith in Shepard than a potential love interest who claimed aliens will always only value their own race ahead of humanity. Well Ash, a whole ship of aliens signed on for a Suicide Mission to save human colonies; a few even specified they were doing so to save innocence. You on the other hand... did absolutely nothing... to save humanity. She, and by extension Kaidan, do less for their own species than aliens despite claiming this is the constant mindset of aliens.

Basically, Ash in particular, completely contradicted herself. If that is not an inconsistency, I don't know what is.

Suffice it to say the once instance where, "I am busy on an important mission and thus cannot help you!" would be a necessity, is nowhere to be seen.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 20 mars 2011 - 01:05 .

[JKoopman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

FYI, the Collectors were interested in Shepard as well as anyone connected to Shepard.

Source?

TIM. Never mind he says "I suspected", "you or  people connected to you"... He never bullsh*tted Shepard once. Take Liara... Oh, wait.

JKoopman wrote...

This includes your old crew. The Collectors didn't come to Horizon to lure Shepard into some trap. The Collectors weren't expecting Shepard to be there at all. The Collectors came to Horizon specifically for Kaidan/Ashley.

Why did they arrive no sooner than Mordin invented his mega mosquito repellent? How did TIM know the time they'd arrive?

You see, TIM had to assume, that if the Collectors were interested in the VS, they would attack as soon as the VS was "in range", Shadow Broker information network and all.

JKoopman wrote...

Cerberus was so quick on the scene because TIM suspected the Collectors might come to Horizon looking for Kaidan/Ashley and so was monitoring the colony. As soon as communications went down, he sent Shepard in to investigate.

The VS had to be on Horizon for quite a while by then. Install the hardware, build a power supply source, takes time.

So yeah, Cerberus was so quick on the scene, because Cerberus had full control of the situation from the get go:

Tip off Anderson with no presise timetable - guns get set up - wait till Mordin invents stuff - tip off the Collectors on a short notice - send in Shepard.

The only way TIM could really lure the Collectors was if he fully
controlled the bait. He did, as that bait was Shepard and only Shepard.

Besides, what use would the Collectors make of the VS?

So your argument is to basically ignore or deny everything that the game itself shows and tells us and instead believe that its all part of some crazy conspiracy theory involving TIM working with the Collectors to set a trap for Shepard... for what purpose exactly?

Yes, TIM is less than honest with Shepard about the derelict Collector vessel because he's afraid that tipping off Shepard to the fact that its a trap might potentially alert the Collectors in any number of ways, and thus would lose them a prime opportunity to examine the Collectors up close and mine data from their systems that could potentially aid them in their campaign (which it does by providing EDI with the location of the Collector "homeworld" and revealing that the Collectors are Prothean in origin). What would intentionally setting a trap for Shepard on Horizon gain TIM? In fact, the Collectors appearing on Horizon well before Shepard even arrives proves exactly what TIM says it proves: that the Collectors are interested in any humans connected to Shepard as well, including Ashley and Kaidan.

Is it convenient that the Collectors just happen to attack Horizon when the defense guns are almost online and that Shepard is conveniently not in the middle of a mission on the other side of the galaxy when it happens and that Mordin just so happens to have his countermeasures ready in time for the fight (which, by the way, TIM didn't know when he sent you to Horizon)? Yes. A lot of convenient things happen in stories to move the plot forward. It was convenient that Shepard was able to be brought back to life in the first place. It was convenient that Veetor managed to avoid the Collectors on Freedom's Progress and thus provide Shepard with exactly the intel he needed on his very first mission. It was convenient that Cerberus just so happened to have the Normandy SR-2 completely built and ready to go in time for Shepard to start his campaign even though Shepard's revival was premature. It was convenient that Garrus took a bullet to the face and didn't bleed out and die before you could get him back to the Normandy. It was convenient that Mordin just so happened to finish his plague cure as Shepard reached the clinic, and that the vorcha chose that exact moment to shut down the life support systems. It was convenient that Okeer just so happened to have Grunt fully grown and ready to replace him after his death instead of being partially formed and useless, and that Shepard arrived just in time to stop Jedore from flushing his tank. Shall I go on?

Are all of the above also evidence of some sort of secret conspiracy? Or are they merely evidence of convenient writing?

Modifié par JKoopman, 20 mars 2011 - 01:11 .

[Iakus]

squee913 wrote...

iakus wrote...

squee913 wrote...
After all of that, you still expect a calm and rational response from the VS, as if they were just chatting over tea. None of us know how we would have reacted in the same situation, and a lot of us would be anything but calm and rational. We know that both of the VS have had trouble with their emotions before. We saw how shaken up Ash was over losing her squad on Eden Prime. Now she just lost 300,000 people that (while she may not have been ordered to protect) she probably felt responsible for. We all heard about Kadian loosing it on Jump Zero when the Turian messed with his girl. I am not saying that these are not unreasonable reactions to these events, simply that the events on horizon are just as traumatic. After all that they had been through in the past few hours, I do not feel that the way that reacted was so far out of character to be considered a plot inconsistency. It was just them being a dick!

ACtualy...yeah.

Kaidan pretty much defines calm  and thoughtful.  As you learn in conversations with him, if there's one thing he learned in BAaT, it was to keep his emotions in check.  Because losing your temper can be, you know bad  for people around you (well, at least he didn't break Shep's neck with a biotic kick )

Ash, while definitely not subtle, and has no patience for political maneuvering, is a competant professional in dangerously stressful situations.  In ME 1 she lost her entire unit to the geth (a species humans have never encountered before then) including friend.  Not to mention all the civilian deaths.  But she managed to keep her cool uinder fire and deliver a coherent report to Shepard when they met up.

While it's within Ash's character, at least, to deliver angry outbursts, it's not in either's character to have an angry tantrum and storm off.  Particularly when there is clearly something major going down.

Oh and fyi, I think it's closer to 10,000 people lost on Horizon, 300k is closer to the total number of colonists thathave disappeared over the loast two years.  Still a huge number, but still...

according to the codex there are over 600,000 people in teh horizon colony and they state that half were taken.

My bad, I just remembered the "tens of thousands" being lost that gets cited in the endgame.  Seems it was off by order of magnitude.

Even if it did turn out that a third of Horizon got Collected, but that's just nitpicking.

[squee913]

iakus wrote...

My bad, I just remembered the "tens of thousands" being lost that gets cited in the endgame.  Seems it was off by order of magnitude.

Even if it did turn out that a third of Horizon got Collected, but that's just nitpicking.

I was thinking about that after I posted it... it did say a third in TIMs report didn't it? oops 

Yeah, those kind of numbers come into play once I get to Smud's idea of the Reapers plan B. He states that it would take dozens of years to get the millions of humans needed, when the numbers and frequency of attacks show it would take something like 2 years... if that

[Iakus]

squee913 wrote...

iakus wrote...

My bad, I just remembered the "tens of thousands" being lost that gets cited in the endgame.  Seems it was off by order of magnitude.

Even if it did turn out that a third of Horizon got Collected, but that's just nitpicking.

I was thinking about that after I posted it... it did say a third in TIMs report didn't it? oops 

Yeah, those kind of numbers come into play once I get to Smud's idea of the Reapers plan B. He states that it would take dozens of years to get the millions of humans needed, when the numbers and frequency of attacks show it would take something like 2 years... if that

I dunno.  It was EDI who said "tens of thousands" had been taken and it was EDI who said it would take "millions" more.  Could be EDI's glitching, dropping zeros, and there actually aren't enough humans alive in the galaxy to finish the job

[squee913]

iakus wrote...

squee913 wrote...

iakus wrote...

My bad, I just remembered the "tens of thousands" being lost that gets cited in the endgame.  Seems it was off by order of magnitude.

Even if it did turn out that a third of Horizon got Collected, but that's just nitpicking.

I was thinking about that after I posted it... it did say a third in TIMs report didn't it? oops 

Yeah, those kind of numbers come into play once I get to Smud's idea of the Reapers plan B. He states that it would take dozens of years to get the millions of humans needed, when the numbers and frequency of attacks show it would take something like 2 years... if that

I dunno.  It was EDI who said "tens of thousands" had been taken and it was EDI who said it would take "millions" more.  Could be EDI's glitching, dropping zeros, and there actually aren't enough humans alive in the galaxy to finish the job

Wouldn't that be a lucky brake? 

[Zulu_DFA]

JKoopman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

FYI, the Collectors were interested in Shepard as well as anyone connected to Shepard.

Source?

TIM. Never mind he says "I suspected", "you or  people connected to you"... He never bullsh*tted Shepard once. Take Liara... Oh, wait.

JKoopman wrote...

This includes your old crew. The Collectors didn't come to Horizon to lure Shepard into some trap. The Collectors weren't expecting Shepard to be there at all. The Collectors came to Horizon specifically for Kaidan/Ashley.

Why did they arrive no sooner than Mordin invented his mega mosquito repellent? How did TIM know the time they'd arrive?

You see, TIM had to assume, that if the Collectors were interested in the VS, they would attack as soon as the VS was "in range", Shadow Broker information network and all.

JKoopman wrote...

Cerberus was so quick on the scene because TIM suspected the Collectors might come to Horizon looking for Kaidan/Ashley and so was monitoring the colony. As soon as communications went down, he sent Shepard in to investigate.

The VS had to be on Horizon for quite a while by then. Install the hardware, build a power supply source, takes time.

So yeah, Cerberus was so quick on the scene, because Cerberus had full control of the situation from the get go:

Tip off Anderson with no presise timetable - guns get set up - wait till Mordin invents stuff - tip off the Collectors on a short notice - send in Shepard.

The only way TIM could really lure the Collectors was if he fully controlled the bait. He did, as that bait was Shepard and only Shepard.

Besides, what use would the Collectors make of the VS?

So your argument is to basically ignore or deny everything that the game itself shows and tells us and instead believe that its all part of some crazy conspiracy theory involving TIM working with the Collectors to set a trap for Shepard... for what purpose exactly?

TIM wasn't working with the Collectors to set a trap for Shepard. TIM was working with Shepard to set a trap for the Collectors. Namely he was using Shepard for bait.

The argument is that TIM could not have been planning on the VS's involvement. He (a) wasn't the one to assign the VS to this mission (Anderson could have picked somebody else), and ( once the VS was assigned, the initiative went to the Collectors (if they were indeed after the VS) thus making the time of the strike unpredictable.

So the whole speculation about the VS being the target is some kind of a Red Herring, especially if you keep in mind that the VS was put in by the writers as a bone for the fans. Too bad the fans didn't like the taste of it. But the whole Horizon act could work just as fine if it was a Commander Cody sent there by Anderson to install the guns and snoop around about Cerberus.

Why TIM painted Horizon as target for Collector strike.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 20 mars 2011 - 08:59 .

[JKoopman]

It's an interesting theory, Zulu. But that's all it is; a theory. There's only speculation to support it and all evidence in-game points to the Collectors hitting Horizon for the VS and Shepard simply being sent there in response. And the VS's involvement comes down to, again, nothing more than another coincidence in a story filled with convenient coincidences.

[Zulu_DFA]

JKoopman wrote...

all evidence in-game points to the Collectors hitting Horizon for the VS

THERE IS NO SUCH EVIDENCE.

JKoopman wrote...

and Shepard simply being sent there in response. And the VS's involvement comes down to, again, nothing more than another coincidence in a story filled with convenient coincidences.

Oh, gawd. Have you ever planned anything in your life, like IDK, a birhtday party? Or did all your friends just convenietly show up, right as the delivery man coincidentally arrived with the pizza?

Even the "All team on shuttle - crew abduction" PLOT HOLE, although comes very close to it, isn't such a pile of rubbish as you seem to believe Horizon is.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 20 mars 2011 - 10:06 .

[JKoopman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

all evidence in-game points to the Collectors hitting Horizon for the VS

THERE IS NO SUCH EVIDENCE.

Illusive Man: Shepard. I think we have them! Horizon--one of our colonies in the Terminus Systems--just went silent. If it isn't under attack, it soon will be. Has Mordin delivered the countermeasure for the seeker swarms?
Shepard: Not yet.
Illusive Man: Let's hope he works well under pressure. There's something else you should know. One of your former crew, Ashely Williams/Kaidan Alenko--she/he's stationed on Horizon.
Shepard: The Collectors just happened to pick a colony with one of my former crew? I don't buy it.
Illusive Man: It shouldn't be a surprise the Collectors are interested in you. Especially if they're working for the Reapers. They might be going after her/him to get to you.

Note in the above that TIM doesn't yet know whether Shepard is fully prepared to engage the Collectors, as Mordin has yet to finish the seeker swarm countermeasures to either of your knowledge. His attitude seems to be one of "This is happening right now whether you're ready or not, so you better hope he can work fast." That doesn't mesh at all with your idea of a pre-conceived plot by TIM trying to use Shepard as bait for the Collectors.

Illusive Man: The Collectors will be more careful now, but I think we can find another way to lure them in.
Shepard: I wondered if you had something to do with that attack. Ash/Kaidan said the Alliance got a tip about me and Cerberus.
Illusive Man: I released a few carefully disguised rumors that you might be alive and working for Cerberus.
Shepard: I see. What were you trying to prove?
Illusive Man: I suspected the Collectors were looking for you, or people connected to you. Now I know for certain.

First, what does TIM have to gain by lying to Shepard at this point? The plot has apparently succeeded, the Collectors have been engaged, Shepard has won... what reason would TIM have for not coming clean about setting the whole thing up as you describe?

Second, we now have two potential--and plausible--reasons for why the Collectors would show interest in people connected to Shepard: both that they themselves are interested in them and that they could be attempting to use them to get to Shepard. This makes far more sense than some half-cocked conspiracy set up by TIM to trick Shepard into heading unprepared into an encounter with the Collectors who just so happen to pick a colony where one of Shepard's former crew happens to be stationed despite their presence being completely irrelevant to the supposed plot (which, by the way, would be saying that Ash/Kaidan's presense on Horizon was completely coincidental to the Collector attack, would it not?).

Third, you argue that it's apparently too much of a coincidence that the Alliance would just so happen to send Ashley/Kaidan instead of some other operative and use that as proof for TIM being more involved than he lets on, but that argument assumes that Ashley/Kaidan were the only Alliance operatives sent to investigate Shepard and the missing colonies and that Horizon was the only colony selected to receive defenses. We don't know this. For all we know, the Alliance sent multiple operatives--including the VS--into the Terminus Systems and were constructing defenses on multiple colonies and, wouldn't ya know, the Collectors just so happened to select the colony where the VS was stationed because, like TIM suspects, they have an interest in anyone connected to Shepard and that makes Ashley/Kaidan--and therefor Horizon--a prime target.

Everything TIM tells you regarding the Horizon attack adds up. Your conspiracy theory does not.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

and Shepard simply being sent there in response. And the VS's involvement comes down to, again, nothing more than another coincidence in a story filled with convenient coincidences.

Oh, gawd. Have you ever planned anything in your life, like IDK, a birhtday party? Or did all your friends just convenietly show up, right as the delivery man coincidentally arrived with the pizza?

Even the "All team on shuttle - crew abduction" PLOT HOLE, although comes very close to it, isn't such a pile of rubbish as you seem to believe Horizon is.

Fiction isn't real life. Improbable coincidences occur routinely in books, games and film.

You seem to be giving the writers of Mass Effect far too much credit. Which is more probable; that the writers concocted an intricate hidden conspiracy of Machiavellian genius and masqueraded it behind an innocuous coincidental encounter or that the writers simply wrote an improbable coincidence for the purposes of moving the plot forward and giving Shepard an opportunity to briefly reunite with their ME1 LI?

Modifié par JKoopman, 20 mars 2011 - 11:23 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]JKoopman wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]JKoopman wrote...

all evidence in-game points to the Collectors hitting Horizon for the VS
[/quote]
THERE IS NO SUCH EVIDENCE.[/quote]

Illusive Man: Shepard. I think we have them! Horizon--one of our colonies in the Terminus Systems--just went silent. If it isn't under attack, it soon will be. Has Mordin delivered the countermeasure for the seeker swarms?
Shepard: Not yet.
Illusive Man: Let's hope he works well under pressure. There's something else you should know. One of your former crew, Ashely Williams/Kaidan Alenko--she/he's stationed on Horizon.
Shepard: The Collectors just happened to pick a colony with one of my former crew? I don't buy it.
Illusive Man: It shouldn't be a surprise the Collectors are interested in you. Especially if they're working for the Reapers. They might be going after her/him to get to you.

Note in the above that TIM doesn't yet know whether Shepard is fully prepared to engage the Collectors, as Mordin has yet to finish the seeker swarm countermeasures to either of your knowledge.[/quote]
Yet, Shepard walks out of the Comm room, goes to the Lab that is like 5 steps away, and Mordin already has his countermeasures. Why do I get the feeling TIM knew it before Shepard? "Monitoring devices" rings a bell, maybe?


[quote]JKoopman wrote...

His attitude seems to be one of "This is happening right now whether you're ready or not, so you better hope he can work fast."[/quote]
You know, even school bullies are usually smarter than that. They give you time to come up with what they want if they really want it, as opposed to it being just an excuse for them to bust you.


[quote]JKoopman wrote...

That doesn't mesh at all with your idea of a pre-conceived plot by TIM trying to use Shepard as bait for the Collectors.
[/quote]
The mission summary does.


[quote]JKoopman wrote...

Illusive Man: The Collectors will be more careful now, but I think we can find another way to lure them in.
Shepard: I wondered if you had something to do with that attack. Ash/Kaidan said the Alliance got a tip about me and Cerberus.
Illusive Man: I released a few carefully disguised rumors that you might be alive and working for Cerberus.
Shepard: I see. What were you trying to prove?
Illusive Man: I suspected the Collectors were looking for you, or people connected to you. Now I know for certain.

First, what does TIM have to gain by lying to Shepard at this point? The plot has apparently succeeded, the Collectors have been engaged, Shepard has won... what reason would TIM have for not coming clean about setting the whole thing up as you describe?
[/quote]
IDK... Maybe he wants to keep Shepard's delusion of importance reinforced via bullsh*tting him that even his former crew are important. Maybe he doesn't want to reiterate Shepard's primary role of a bait, and tries selling him the idea that the VS was a bait... TIM's a manitulative douchebag, remember? Sure, he does tell you the truth from time to time, but ONLY to sell you his lies and agenda.


[quote]JKoopman wrote...

Second, we now have two potential--and plausible--reasons for why the Collectors would show interest in people connected to Shepard: both that they themselves are interested in them and that they could be attempting to use them to get to Shepard.[/quote]
There are other people "connected to Shepard", why not go after them?

And what about Shepards who don't tend to care about things and people outside of the scope of their current mission? How is capturing the VS is going to affect those Shepards?


[quote]JKoopman wrote...

This makes far more sense than some half-cocked conspiracy set up by TIM to trick Shepard into heading unprepared into an encounter with the Collectors
[/quote]
Right, my explanation makes a lot more sense than this.


[quote]JKoopman wrote...

who just so happen to pick a colony where one of Shepard's former crew happens to be stationed despite their presence being completely irrelevant to the supposed plot (which, by the way, would be saying that Ash/Kaidan's presense on Horizon was completely coincidental to the Collector attack, would it not?).
[/quote]
The Collectors didn't just pick a random colony. TIM picked this colony for and lured the Collectors there, using Shepard as the bait. In preparation for this, he had tipped Anderson off well beforehand to make him send somebody to put the guns in place. It was Anderson's choice: Commander Cody or the VS. He chose the VS, apparently due to the VS's ties to Shepard. So yes, from the Collectors' and TIM's PoV the VS's presense was entirely coincidential, but upon learing it, TIM decided to use it as a bonus to manipulate Shepard.


[quote]JKoopman wrote...

Third, you argue that it's apparently too much of a coincidence that the Alliance would just so happen to send Ashley/Kaidan instead of some other operative and use that as proof for TIM being more involved than he lets on,
[/quote]
See above.


[quote]JKoopman wrote...

but that argument assumes that Ashley/Kaidan were the only Alliance operatives sent to investigate Shepard and the missing colonies and that Horizon was the only colony selected to receive defenses. We don't know this.
For all we know, the Alliance sent multiple operatives--including
the VS--into the Terminus Systems and were constructing defenses on
multiple colonies
[/quote]
Making stuff up.

The VS said they'd sent the mission after being tipped off that Horizon would be hit next. Otherwise the Allaince was doing nothing, primarily because the colonies in the Terminus systems are not under their jurisdiction, and it doesn't make any sense to waste resourses "on the off-chance".


[quote]JKoopman wrote...

and, wouldn't ya know, the Collectors just so happened to select the colony where the VS was stationed because,
[/quote]
Because it was a colony TIM wanted them to hit.


[quote]JKoopman wrote...

like TIM suspects, they have an interest in anyone connected to Shepard and that makes Ashley/Kaidan--and therefor Horizon--a prime target.
[/quote]
But the Collectors had not been attacking the colony for a few weeks the VS was there installing the guns and making Delan the Welder feel uneasy about it. But as soon as Shepard was ready to go in they attacked. What a hell of a coincidence!


[quote]JKoopman wrote...

Everything TIM tells you regarding the Horizon attack adds up.
[/quote]
The only two things that do not add up are that (1) TIM never explicitly stated (without any "mights" and "ors") that he believed the Collectors were there for the VS, and (2) it would not make sense if he did.


[quote]JKoopman wrote...

Your conspiracy theory does not.
[/quote]
How exactly is my explanation that the Collectors weren't looking for the VS a conspiracy theory?


[quote]JKoopman wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]JKoopman wrote...

and Shepard simply being sent there in response. And the VS's involvement comes down to, again, nothing more than another coincidence in a story filled with convenient coincidences.[/quote]
Oh, gawd. Have you ever planned anything in your life, like IDK, a birhtday party? Or did all your friends just convenietly show up, right as the delivery man coincidentally arrived with the pizza?

Even the "All team on shuttle - crew abduction" PLOT HOLE, although comes very close to it, isn't such a pile of rubbish as you seem to believe Horizon is.
[/quote]
Fiction isn't real life. Improbable coincidences occur routinely in books, games and film.
[/quote]
So why are you even here debating stuff? ME2 is a game, which means that any plot point there may just as easy as not be a routinely occuring improbable coincidence (aka plot hole).

Ashley acting weird? Coincidence.
Shepard resurrected? Coincidence.
Collectors use an IFF system? Coincidence.
Shepard kicks Collector butt? Coincidence.

[JKoopman]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

all evidence in-game points to the Collectors hitting Horizon for the VS
[/quote]

THERE IS NO SUCH EVIDENCE.[/quote]

Illusive Man: Shepard. I think we have them! Horizon--one of our colonies in the Terminus Systems--just went silent. If it isn't under attack, it soon will be. Has Mordin delivered the countermeasure for the seeker swarms?
Shepard: Not yet.
Illusive Man: Let's hope he works well under pressure. There's something else you should know. One of your former crew, Ashely Williams/Kaidan Alenko--she/he's stationed on Horizon.
Shepard: The Collectors just happened to pick a colony with one of my former crew? I don't buy it.
Illusive Man: It shouldn't be a surprise the Collectors are interested in you. Especially if they're working for the Reapers. They might be going after her/him to get to you.

Note in the above that TIM doesn't yet know whether Shepard is fully prepared to engage the Collectors, as Mordin has yet to finish the seeker swarm countermeasures to either of your knowledge.[/quote]
Yet, Shepard walks out of the Comm room, goes to the Lab that is like 5 steps away, and Mordin already has his countermeasures. Why do I get the feeling TIM knew it before Shepard? "Monitoring devices" rings a bell, maybe?[/quote]

You mean the monitoring devices that Mordin himself removed upon recruiting him? Or is it perhaps more likely that it's just yet another example among many throughout the game of the frequently improbable coincidences that occur in works of fiction, and it was written so simply for the sake of moving the plot forward? Do I need to post another list of all the convenenient coincidences that occur throughout the story of Mass Effect 2? Would it have been better for the game if Shepard storms into Mordin's lab and says "Tell me you have something!" only for Mordin to shake his head in defeat and have Shepard walk back to the comm room and inform TIM that Horizon is S.O.L. and the team will be sitting this one out?

Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Which explanation is simpler, that there's some elaborate conspiracy at play or that the writers were just lazy?

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

His attitude seems to be one of "This is happening right now whether you're ready or not, so you better hope he can work fast."[/quote]

You know, even school bullies are usually smarter than that. They give you time to come up with what they want if they really want it, as opposed to it being just an excuse for them to bust you.[/quote]

Which would seem to suggest that the Collectors are operating independantly and aren't being manipulated by TIM, would it not? Unless you're just suggesting that TIM is stupid.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

That doesn't mesh at all with your idea of a pre-conceived plot by TIM trying to use Shepard as bait for the Collectors.
[/quote]

The mission summary does.[/quote]

No it doesn't.

"Collectors escaped with approximately one third of Horizon's population. Front corporations will funnel supplies, monetary aid to colonial survivors. Collector leader, Harbinger, demonstrates a personal interest in Shepard. Unclear whether his ability to possess his minions is cybernetic override, indication of hive mind among Collectors, or even Reaper technology at work. Salvage teams captured Collector bodies for study."

That's all he says. There's no mention of suspicions or a plot. All he says is that Harbinger demonstrated a personal interest in Shepard, which Harbinger does demonstrate several times throughout the mission so it's not an inaccurate or suspicious statement to make.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

Illusive Man: The Collectors will be more careful now, but I think we can find another way to lure them in.
Shepard: I wondered if you had something to do with that attack. Ash/Kaidan said the Alliance got a tip about me and Cerberus.
Illusive Man: I released a few carefully disguised rumors that you might be alive and working for Cerberus.
Shepard: I see. What were you trying to prove?
Illusive Man: I suspected the Collectors were looking for you, or people connected to you. Now I know for certain.

First,what does TIM have to gain by lying to Shepard at this point? The plot has apparently succeeded, the Collectors have been engaged, Shepard has won... what reason would TIM have for not coming clean about setting the whole thing up as you describe?
[/quote]

IDK... Maybe he wants to keep Shepard's delusion of importance reinforced via bullsh*tting him that even his former crew are important. Maybe he doesn't want to reiterate Shepard's primary role of a bait, and tries selling him the idea that the VS was a bait... TIM's a manitulative douchebag, remember? Sure, he does tell you the truth from time to time, but ONLY to sell you his lies and agenda.[/quote]

So your explanation is that TIM is just being a dick for the sake of being a dick.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

Second, we now have two potential--and plausible--reasons for why the Collectors would show interest in people connected to Shepard: both that they themselves are interested in them and that they could be attempting to use them to get to Shepard.[/quote]
There are other people "connected to Shepard", why not go after them?

And what about Shepards who don't tend to care about things and people outside of the scope of their current mission? How is capturing the VS is going to affect those Shepards?[/quote]

Like who? Garrus? Already on your team, and no one knew it was him on Omega. Tali? Deep inside geth space on the other side of the galaxy. Wrex? On the heavily-defended krogan homeworld inside Council space. Liara? On Illium, which is probably going to be a somewhat harder target to hit compared to lightly defended fledgling colonies like Horizon and Freedom's Progress.

The VS was the only person connected to Shepard that was feasable for the Collectors to abduct.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

but that argument assumes that Ashley/Kaidan were the only Alliance operatives sent to investigate Shepard and the missing colonies and that Horizon was the only colony selected to receive defenses. We don't know this. For all we know, the Alliance sent multiple operatives--including the VS--into the Terminus Systems and were constructing defenses on multiple colonies
[/quote]

Making stuff up.[/quote]

It's not "making stuff up" to point out that you're making assumptions based on insufficient evidence.

Look, I'm not going to sit here arguing this with you. If you want to believe there's some sort of ulterior plot at work and that the Collectors had no interest whatsoever in regards to the VS, then that's your choice. But it's inappropriate to go around correcting other people about it and dropping your theory like it's fact.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

and Shepard simply being sent there in response. And the VS's involvement comes down to, again, nothing more than another coincidence in a story filled with convenient coincidences.[/quote]
Oh, gawd. Have you ever planned anything in your life, like IDK, a birhtday party? Or did all your friends just convenietly show up, right as the delivery man coincidentally arrived with the pizza?

Even the "All team on shuttle - crew abduction" PLOT HOLE, although comes very close to it, isn't such a pile of rubbish as you seem to believe Horizon is.
[/quote]

Fiction isn't real life. Improbable coincidences occur routinely in books, games and film.
[/quote]

So why are you even here debating stuff? ME2 is a game, which means that any plot point there may just as easy as not be a routinely occuring improbable coincidence (aka plot hole).

Ashley acting weird? Coincidence.
Shepard resurrected? Coincidence.
Collectors use an IFF system? Coincidence.
Shepard kicks Collector butt? Coincidence.
[/quote]

It's a coincidence that Mordin just so happens to have the seeker swarm countermeasure ready exactly when you need it. It's a coincidence that Mordin just so happens to have the plague cure ready exactly when you reach the clinic, and that the vorcha just so happen to choose that exact moment to disable life support. It's a coincidence that Okeer just so happens to have Grunt fully-grown and ready to be "born" in time to repace him after his unfortunate death, and that Shepard just so happens to arrive in time to stop Jedore from flushing his tank. It's a coincidence that you just so happen to board the derelict Reaper at the same time that Legion is there doing recon, and just so happen to be in a position to save him when he gets disabled by husks.

A character inexplicably having a complete 180° shift in personality is not a coincidence. Shepard being irrelevantly killed and then instantly resurrected without anything by way of exposition or explanation is not a coincidence.

Look up the definition of the word.

Modifié par JKoopman, 20 mars 2011 - 11:19 .

[piemanz]

I agree with the above post.

Almostfaceman wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

piemanz wrote...

There was no investigation on Horizon before the attack...The attack WAS the investigation.

The defense towers were merely prep for whatever was attacking the colonies.  Ash was there to see Who was attacking the colonies.  She suspected it was Cerberus.  Hence it's an investigation to see if their suspicions are correct.

Exactly..

So why would the VS need to ask sheperd more questions about Cerberus when she already knew it was the collectors.

Are you deliberately ignoring all the other points made in this thread?  We're covering ground already covered here.  Just because Ash see's and recognizes that the attack is from the Collectors - this does not mean she shouldn't bring back evidence or more data.  Data and evidence (like the swarm sample) that Shepard has.  Instead of trying to find out more about what her eyes just told her, she goes off on some 10 year old temper tantrum about Shepard working with Cerberus.  If she takes a couple minutes to actually talk to Shepard, he can tell her that TiM has found data about how the Reapers are connected and they can then work together to investigate that.  Walking away from Shepard in a huff simply does not make sense.

This was my point (before i went off on a tangent)...The attack WAS the investigation.The VS had all the answers they needed from the attack.They knew it was the Collectors after the attack and Shepard coming and doing his thing only reaffirms that it was infact the Collectors taking colonists and not Cerberus.This does not make Shepard working with cerberus any easier to swallow.

Just because the VS walks off in a huff  does not mean they left the planet, it's entirely possible they were there conducting their own investigation and collecting their own samples for some time after shepard leaves Horizon.

Modifié par piemanz, 21 mars 2011 - 12:34 .

[Iakus]

piemanz wrote...

This was my point (before i went off on a tangent)...The attack WAS the investigation.The VS had all the answers they needed from the attack.They knew it was the Collectors after the attack and Shepard coming and doing his thing only reaffirms that it was infact the Collectors taking colonists and not Cerberus.This does not make Shepard working with cerberus any easier to swallow.

Just because the VS walks off in a huff  does not mean they left the planet, it's entirely possible they were there conducting their own investigation and collecting their own samples for some time after shepard leaves Horizon.

It's true.  The VS has answers.  Collectors are attacking human colonies.  Cerberus is trying to stop them.  Shepard is working with them to make that happen.  But the VS is forgetting about answers they already had:

Shepard did kill dozens of Cerberus operative and destroyed a good half dozen or so of their bases two years ago.  Shepard did learn of their extreme actions from traumatized survivors like Toombs.  Shepard did learn of their crimes like killing Admiral Kahoku.  When the VS learned all these things, Shepard was right there too.

Yet this does nothing to cast any doubt on the VS's certainty that Shepard is a traitor.  It's like Shepard's history with Cerberus started when he woke up in the lab on Lazarus Station, and nothing that happened before really matters.  Do certain key choices made with my imports regarding Cerberus not get tripped?

[Almostfaceman]

piemanz wrote...

This was my point (before i went off on a tangent)...The attack WAS the investigation.The VS had all the answers they needed from the attack.They knew it was the Collectors after the attack and Shepard coming and doing his thing only reaffirms that it was infact the Collectors taking colonists and not Cerberus.This does not make Shepard working with cerberus any easier to swallow.

Just because the VS walks off in a huff  does not mean they left the planet, it's entirely possible they were there conducting their own investigation and collecting their own samples for some time after shepard leaves Horizon.

You're creating more questions not more answers.  If the VS finds out that it's the Collectors and not Cerberus, why does this not make Shepard working with Cerberus any easier to swallow?  Shepard just saved tens of thousands of lives, including the VS's.  Shepard is not at some Cerberus facility helping some doctor torture his autistic brother, Shepard is once again in the mud and blood putting his ass on the line to save lives.  If anything, this should at the very least merit a "thanks" from the VS.  Why would the VS run off into their own sandbox and do their own investigation when they could do their job and compare notes with someone who's saved the galaxy before, and just saved their ass in a mission to continue fighting the Reapers plans?

I mean really.  You can't wrap your head around my logic?  For reals?

The VS had all the answers they needed from the attack?  Did they have Mordin's data? No. Did they know the Collectors were interested in human colonies because of Shepard?  No.  If they came back to Anderson with that data, I'm sure Anderson would have thought it necessary and valuable.

Even worse, could the VS have found out useful data for the Alliance if they'd have gone with Shepard?  Yes.  Info like the Collectors were Protheans.  Info like there was a helpful prototype A.I. built with Reaper technology.  Info like an IFF could be acquired to navigate through the Omega 4 Relay.  Info like even a "dead" Reaper could indoctrinate organics.  Info like the Reapers use organics for reproduction.  The VS missed out on golden opportunties to gather data for the Alliance.  

What kept them from this data?  Were they afraid that Shepard would harm them?  Probably not, because if Shepard was going to harm them, he would have done it when he had the chance.  Were they afraid that Shepard would smother them with "Cerberus is Awesome!" pamphlets until they were brainwashed?  That would be silly.  No, there's no compelling reason for them to forget what their job is and to at least ask Shepard what he's found out regarding the Collectors.

*points at post above mine* and yeah what iakus says too.  

P.S.  Holy geez, if I'm an Alliance soldier on vacation, let alone on a mission to investigate Cerberus in some capacity, and I run into an old friend who may or may not be working for the enemy, I'm going to feel out the situation.  Maybe walk off for a minute to pretend to get my gear to see if he tries to shoot me in the back or capture me - but come back if none of that happens and start gathering intel. My duty is to gather intel on what Cerberus is up to, and if Shepard is cooperative I'll play along even if I don't trust him.  I'll question him thoroughly and even try to get on his ship so I can gather intel on Cerberus technology and strategy.  I mean, this is just basic stuff and as a soldier if I don't attempt to do this, I'm in dereliction of duty.   If I find out Shepard is willing to work for the Alliance - bonus.  If I find out he hasn't really changed, bonus.  But only bonus.  Yes, I'm aware this is a video game, I'm just explaining my reasoning regarding why the VS Horizon event should have been handled MUCH differently.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 21 mars 2011 - 07:00 .

[piemanz]

iakus wrote...

Shepard did kill dozens of Cerberus operative and destroyed a good half dozen or so of their bases two years ago.  Shepard did learn of their extreme actions from traumatized survivors like Toombs.  Shepard did learn of their crimes like killing Admiral Kahoku.  When the VS learned all these things, Shepard was right there too.

I would think the fact that both the VS and Sheperd both saw these things together would make him working with Cerberus even harder to understand.

He knows what they've done who they've killed and the extreme lengths they're willing to go to.I would think  the VS's initial reaction would be 'he knows everything i know about Cerberus and yet he's still working with them'.

Infact i would think their initial reaction would be more along the lines of disgust before anything else.


Now you may think they should give him the benefit of the doubt, but i doubt very much their initial response would be a rational one given the bombshell that he is actually alive  after supposedly being dead for 2 years and then on top of that the second bombshell when they confirm he's working with cerberus.

Modifié par piemanz, 21 mars 2011 - 08:14 .

[piemanz]

Almostfaceman wrote...

You're creating more questions not more answers.  If the VS finds out that it's the Collectors and not Cerberus, why does this not make Shepard working with Cerberus any easier to swallow?  Shepard just saved tens of thousands of lives, including the VS's.  Shepard is not at some Cerberus facility helping some doctor torture his autistic brother, Shepard is once again in the mud and blood putting his ass on the line to save lives.  If anything, this should at the very least merit a "thanks" from the VS.  Why would the VS run off into their own sandbox and do their own investigation when they could do their job and compare notes with someone who's saved the galaxy before, and just saved their ass in a mission to continue fighting the Reapers plans?

No but shepard is working for the people who are paying some doctor to conduct experiments on his autistic brother.The trouble is you're logic relies completely on a rational response which given the circumstances is highly unlikely.

Almostfaceman wrote...

The VS had all the answers they needed from the attack?  Did they have Mordin's data? No. Did they know the Collectors were interested in human colonies because of Shepard?  No.  If they came back to Anderson with that data, I'm sure Anderson would have thought it necessary and valuable.

Even worse, could the VS have found out useful data for the Alliance if they'd have gone with Shepard?  Yes.  Info like the Collectors were Protheans.  Info like there was a helpful prototype A.I. built with Reaper technology.  Info like an IFF could be acquired to navigate through the Omega 4 Relay.  Info like even a "dead" Reaper could indoctrinate organics.  Info like the Reapers use organics for reproduction.  The VS missed out on golden opportunties to gather data for the Alliance.  

What kept them from this data?  Were they afraid that Shepard would harm them?  Probably not, because if Shepard was going to harm them, he would have done it when he had the chance.  Were they afraid that Shepard would smother them with "Cerberus is Awesome!" pamphlets until they were brainwashed?  That would be silly.  No, there's no compelling reason for them to forget what their job is and to at least ask Shepard what he's found out regarding the Collectors.

*points at post above mine* and yeah what iakus says too.  

P.S.  Holy geez, if I'm an Alliance soldier on vacation, let alone on a mission to investigate Cerberus in some capacity, and I run into an old friend who may or may not be working for the enemy, I'm going to feel out the situation.  Maybe walk off for a minute to pretend to get my gear to see if he tries to shoot me in the back or capture me - but come back if none of that happens and start gathering intel. My duty is to gather intel on what Cerberus is up to, and if Shepard is cooperative I'll play along even if I don't trust him.  I'll question him thoroughly and even try to get on his ship so I can gather intel on Cerberus technology and strategy.  I mean, this is just basic stuff and as a soldier if I don't attempt to do this, I'm in dereliction of duty.   If I find out Shepard is willing to work for the Alliance - bonus.  If I find out he hasn't really changed, bonus.  But only bonus.  Yes, I'm aware this is a video game, I'm just explaining my reasoning regarding why the VS Horizon event should have been handled MUCH differently.

What you don't seem to understand and keep missing even though i have emphasised the point on numerous occasions is that the VS was never on horizon to investigate Cerberus!.They were there to see if it was Cerberus attacking the colonys after a tip off that Horizon would be next.

After the attack they knew it wasn't Cerberus attacking the colonys but infact the Collectors.Job done, they got the infomation they was stationed on that planet for.

Sure they could have learned more if they had gone with shepard much like i could have bought a bigmac yesterday if i went down Mcdonalds, but i did'nt.

Modifié par piemanz, 21 mars 2011 - 07:20 .

[Zulu_DFA]

JKoopman wrote...

You mean the monitoring devices that Mordin himself removed upon recruiting him?

No, I mean those that he missed.

JKoopman wrote...

Occam's Razor. The simplest WORKING explanation is usually the correct one.

fix'd 4u

JKoopman wrote...

Which would seem to suggest that the Collectors are operating independantly and aren't being manipulated by TIM,

Last I checked, the Collectors have been manipulated by TIM into total defeat and apparent extinction.

JKoopman wrote...

Collector leader, Harbinger, demonstrates a personal interest in Shepard.

No mention of the VS at all.

JKoopman wrote...

So your explanation is that TIM is just being a dick for the sake of being a dick.

My explanation is that TIM advances his agenda by any means necessary, and that often makes him coming across as a dick.

JKoopman wrote...

The VS was the only person connected to Shepard that was feasable for the Collectors to abduct.

No, there are hundreds of other people connected to Shepard, starting with Conrad Verner. Can't be too hard to abduct him.

JKoopman wrote...

It's not "making stuff up".

Yes it is.

JKoopman wrote...

Look, I'm not going to sit here arguing this with you.

Neither am I. You may believe all you want in just another plot hole in ME2, where, in fact, there is no plot hole.

JKoopman wrote...

A character inexplicably having a complete 180° shift in personality is not a coincidence.

Why not?

Like I say: menstruation.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 mars 2011 - 08:16 .

[Almostfaceman]

piemanz wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

You're creating more questions not more answers.  If the VS finds out that it's the Collectors and not Cerberus, why does this not make Shepard working with Cerberus any easier to swallow?  Shepard just saved tens of thousands of lives, including the VS's.  Shepard is not at some Cerberus facility helping some doctor torture his autistic brother, Shepard is once again in the mud and blood putting his ass on the line to save lives.  If anything, this should at the very least merit a "thanks" from the VS.  Why would the VS run off into their own sandbox and do their own investigation when they could do their job and compare notes with someone who's saved the galaxy before, and just saved their ass in a mission to continue fighting the Reapers plans?

No but shepard is working for the people who are paying some doctor to conduct experiments on his autistic brother.The trouble is you're logic relies completely on a rational response which given the circumstances is highly unlikely.

Almostfaceman wrote...

The VS had all the answers they needed from the attack?  Did they have Mordin's data? No. Did they know the Collectors were interested in human colonies because of Shepard?  No.  If they came back to Anderson with that data, I'm sure Anderson would have thought it necessary and valuable.

Even worse, could the VS have found out useful data for the Alliance if they'd have gone with Shepard?  Yes.  Info like the Collectors were Protheans.  Info like there was a helpful prototype A.I. built with Reaper technology.  Info like an IFF could be acquired to navigate through the Omega 4 Relay.  Info like even a "dead" Reaper could indoctrinate organics.  Info like the Reapers use organics for reproduction.  The VS missed out on golden opportunties to gather data for the Alliance.  

What kept them from this data?  Were they afraid that Shepard would harm them?  Probably not, because if Shepard was going to harm them, he would have done it when he had the chance.  Were they afraid that Shepard would smother them with "Cerberus is Awesome!" pamphlets until they were brainwashed?  That would be silly.  No, there's no compelling reason for them to forget what their job is and to at least ask Shepard what he's found out regarding the Collectors.

*points at post above mine* and yeah what iakus says too.  

P.S.  Holy geez, if I'm an Alliance soldier on vacation, let alone on a mission to investigate Cerberus in some capacity, and I run into an old friend who may or may not be working for the enemy, I'm going to feel out the situation.  Maybe walk off for a minute to pretend to get my gear to see if he tries to shoot me in the back or capture me - but come back if none of that happens and start gathering intel. My duty is to gather intel on what Cerberus is up to, and if Shepard is cooperative I'll play along even if I don't trust him.  I'll question him thoroughly and even try to get on his ship so I can gather intel on Cerberus technology and strategy.  I mean, this is just basic stuff and as a soldier if I don't attempt to do this, I'm in dereliction of duty.   If I find out Shepard is willing to work for the Alliance - bonus.  If I find out he hasn't really changed, bonus.  But only bonus.  Yes, I'm aware this is a video game, I'm just explaining my reasoning regarding why the VS Horizon event should have been handled MUCH differently.

What you don't seem to understand and keep missing even though i have emphasised the point on numerous occasions is that the VS was never on horizon to investigate Cerberus!.They were there to see if it was Cerberus attacking the colonys after a tip off that Horizon would be next.

After the attack they knew it wasn't Cerberus attacking the colonys but infact the Collectors.Job done, they got the infomation they was stationed on that planet for.

Sure they could have learned more if they had gone with shepard much like i could have bought a bigmac yesterday if i went down Mcdonalds, but i did'nt.

So, seeing if Cerberus is attacking colonies = is not investigating Cerberus.  

What exactly are you smoking?

And yes, I expect a professional soldier to be more rational than you.  Because you obviously can't wrap your head around the concept that Ashly and Kaiden are people who have repeatedly stared death in the face, repeatedly been put under enormous pressure, and repeatedly not only not broken under that pressure but performed in an oustanding fashion.  They don't behave like civilians and they wouldn't break down and cry because all of a sudden Shepard is using Cerberus equipment to save thousands and thousands of lives, including the VS's life.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 21 mars 2011 - 07:46 .