1198 réponses à ce sujet

[piemanz]

Almostfaceman wrote...


So, seeing if Cerberus is attacking colonies = is not investigating Cerberus.

What exactly are you smoking?

You know what, i'm not even going to bother.If you haven't wrapped your head around it yet i dont think you ever will.

Even though you said you agree with this.

iakus wrote...

It's true.  The VS has answers.  Collectors are attacking human colonies.  Cerberus is trying to stop them.

Almostfaceman wrote...

They don't behave like civilians and they wouldn't break down and cry because all of a sudden Shepard is using Cerberus equipment to save thousands and thousands of lives, including the VS's life.

Funny, because thats exactly what it looked like to me.

Guess what, soldiers are real people too.

Modifié par piemanz, 21 mars 2011 - 02:00 .

[squee913]

There is a big difference between suppressing emotions during combat and facing enemies, and behaving rationally after a very traumatic experience. Even the best soldiers perform flawlessly during combat, or high stress situations, and then collapse in a corner and cry. I've seen it. I've done it. I don't care how well trained you are, everyone has breaking points. Ash said that seeing civilians die is hard for her to take. She just found out hundreds of thousands of them that she had been trying to protect are gone. The VS's ability to stay cool under fire has nothing to do with how well they cope with it after the fact.

[Fiery Phoenix]

How is Part #3 coming along, Squee?

[Rollingcabbage]

squee913 wrote...

There is a big difference between suppressing emotions during combat and facing enemies, and behaving rationally after a very traumatic experience. Even the best soldiers perform flawlessly during combat, or high stress situations, and then collapse in a corner and cry. I've seen it. I've done it. I don't care how well trained you are, everyone has breaking points. Ash said that seeing civilians die is hard for her to take. She just found out hundreds of thousands of them that she had been trying to protect are gone. The VS's ability to stay cool under fire has nothing to do with how well they cope with it after the fact.

I have to say, squee: I really respect how you approached Smudboy and his arguments.

I debated the merits of ME2's narrative on the Escapist forums with Smudboy, and while I see flaws in his arguments I was glad to debate with someone who reciprocated respect, even while passionately engaged with the topic. I ended up pulling out as it was clear that neither of us agreed with each other, however I have never had a problem with the man.

I noticed that the only time he would become negatively aggressive was when the opposing debater used negative aggression in their arguments.

Perhaps others have had a different experience?

[JKoopman]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

You mean the monitoring devices that Mordin himself removed upon recruiting him?
[/quote]
No, I mean those that he missed.[/quote]

Mordin seemed confident that he had found all of them, and I trust his years of experience as a top agent for the STG more than I do your theories. But by all means, if you have evidence supporting the existence of additional surveillance devices in Mordin's lab, please present it. Otherwise you're just "making things up."

Either way, it's basically irrelevant to the point.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

Occam's Razor. The simplest WORKING explanation is usually the correct one.
[/quote]
fix'd 4u[/quote]

So the writing being lazy isn't a valid explanation? There has to be a conspiracy behind every coincidence even if the game itself tells you otherwise and gives you no reason to disbelieve it? So what are your conspiracy theories for every other convenient coincidence that I listed? Did Cerberus secretly assassinate Okeer to acquire Grunt? Did TIM tip the geth off about Shepard's mission to the derelict Reaper, thus accounting for Legion's presence? I'm honestly interested in what you can come up with.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

Which would seem to suggest that the Collectors are operating independantly and aren't being manipulated by TIM,
[/quote]
Last I checked, the Collectors have been manipulated by TIM into total defeat and apparent extinction.[/quote]

As I can't think of any other examples where TIM manipulated the Collectors, I can only assume that you're referring to the derelict Collector ship. If so, there's a big difference between misleading the Collectors into thinking you've fallen for their trap and omiting said info from your pre-mission briefing out of fear of alerting the Collectors to your deception and intentionally misleading your own star operative post-mission for no apparent reason. Seriously, give me a "WORKING explanation" for exactly why TIM would hide this info from Shepard; and "just because" doesn't count.

I agree that manipulation took place. Just not as you're suggesting. TIM manipulated the Alliance into sending the VS into the Terminus Systems as bait to lure the Collectors out because he suspected that they were interested in Shepard's former crew, whereas you're suggesting that TIM manipulated the Collectors by using Shepard as (retroactive?) bait and the VS had no influence whatsoever (and therefor their presence on Horizon was completely coincidental and irrelevant?), which goes against everything we're told in-game. And then TIM lies to Shepard about it afterward for some reason?

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

Collector leader, Harbinger, demonstrates a personal interest in Shepard.
[/quote]
No mention of the VS at all.[/quote]

No mention of confirmed suspicions, a successful ruse or a secret plot either. He simply states that Harbinger demonstrated an interest in Shepard... which he does. Frequently.

“Preserve Shepard's body if possible.”
“You will know pain, Shepard.”
“Neutralize Commander Shepard.”
“If I must tear you apart, Shepard, I will.”
“Impressive, Shepard.”
“Focus on Shepard.”
“Stop, Shepard.”
“You cannot stop us, Shepard.”
“Shepard, you could have been useful.”
“Shepard, your interference has ended.”
“Shepard, submit now.”
“Shepard, you cannot stop us.”
“You escaped us before, Shepard, not again.”
“You cannot stop us, Shepard.”
“You will regret your resistance, Shepard.”
“You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard.”
“You are arrogant, Shepard, you will learn.”
“Why do you resist us, Shepard?”
“You cannot kill me, Shepard.”
“Shepard, I always survive.”
“Flee while you can, Shepard.”

Ringing any bells?

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

So your explanation is that TIM is just being a dick for the sake of being a dick.
[/quote]
My explanation is that TIM advances his agenda by any means necessary, and that often makes him coming across as a dick.[/quote]

And what agenda precisely does TIM advance by lying to Shepard about the nature of the Collector's attack on Horizon and their interest in his former crew? Please explain without "making things up."

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

The VS was the only person connected to Shepard that was feasable for the Collectors to abduct.
[/quote]
No, there are hundreds of other people connected to Shepard, starting with Conrad Verner. Can't be too hard to abduct him.[/quote]

A connection implies more than a brief casual contact. They're interested in people that actually played a part in the defeat of Sovereign. Now my memory isn't the greatest lately, but I don't recall Conrad gunning down any geth on Ilos or raising a weapon against Saren on the Citadel. Conrad's only connection to Shepard is an autographed picture and a gun to the face. The Collectors might as well start hunting down every merchant Shepard has ever done business with. At least they actually contributed in some form...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

It's not "making stuff up".
[/quote]
Yes it is.[/quote]

No it isn't. We can do this all day.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

Look, I'm not going to sit here arguing this with you.
[/quote]
Neither do I. You may believe all you want in just another plot hole in ME2 where, in fact, there is no plot hole.[/quote]

I haven't said that it is a plot hole. My beef with Horizon is the VS's implausibly irrational, inconsistent and uncharacteristic behavior, not the Collector's motivations for attacking the colony. In fact, the Collector's interest in the Horizon colony is nicely explained.

TIM leaks info to the Alliance that Shepard is in the Terminus Systems and working for Cerberus, perhaps using his Alliance connections to pull some strings and ensure that the VS is selected for the mission (or perhaps he simply anticipates that the VS will volunteer knowing that they would have an interest in anything relating to their former Commander). The Alliance sends said operative into the Terminus Systems to investigate under the pretenses of installing defenses on the scattered human colonies. The Collectors pick up on the VS's vulnerable presense in the Terminus Systems and move in to abduct them, happening to catch the VS while he/she's at the Horizon colony. TIM, who's been monitoring the VS's location because he suspects that the Collectors may be interested in them, receives advance notice that the colony has gone silent and immediately sends Shepard in to investigate the potential attack. The attack subsequently proves to TIM that the Collectors are personally interested in Shepard as well as his former crew, just as he suspected and just as he tells Shepard.

This is exactly the way it's described in-game, and it makes perfect sense.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

A character inexplicably having a complete 180° shift in personality is not a coincidence.
[/quote]
Why not?

Like I say: menstruation.[/quote]

Right. Kaidan is menstruating. That explains everything.

Modifié par JKoopman, 21 mars 2011 - 09:15 .

[squee913]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

How is Part #3 coming along, Squee?

it's going well-ish. It's fun thinking up all the funny pictures

I'm working on Smuds arguments for the Collectors taking the crew scene. I admit the way the scene starts is a bit awkward, but some of the things he says at this point just boggle the mind....

[squee913]

Rollingcabbage wrote...

squee913 wrote...

There is a big difference between suppressing emotions during combat and facing enemies, and behaving rationally after a very traumatic experience. Even the best soldiers perform flawlessly during combat, or high stress situations, and then collapse in a corner and cry. I've seen it. I've done it. I don't care how well trained you are, everyone has breaking points. Ash said that seeing civilians die is hard for her to take. She just found out hundreds of thousands of them that she had been trying to protect are gone. The VS's ability to stay cool under fire has nothing to do with how well they cope with it after the fact.

I have to say, squee: I really respect how you approached Smudboy and his arguments.

I debated the merits of ME2's narrative on the Escapist forums with Smudboy, and while I see flaws in his arguments I was glad to debate with someone who reciprocated respect, even while passionately engaged with the topic. I ended up pulling out as it was clear that neither of us agreed with each other, however I have never had a problem with the man.

I noticed that the only time he would become negatively aggressive was when the opposing debater used negative aggression in their arguments.

Perhaps others have had a different experience?

Thanks, I never talked with the guy, but I would really like to. Sometimes I feel that he simply did not make his point well enough and that if he could explain it to me, I might understand it better. The problem is that many people cannot tell the difference between an attack on an argument, and an attack on a person. They see them as the same thing and get defensive. I may poke fun at Smud's arguments, even get frustrated with them, but I do not question his intelligence or personal character. Perhaps if more people argued that way, he would have been less defensive... perhaps not. I cannot judge.

[Zulu_DFA]

squee913 wrote...

There is a big difference between suppressing emotions during combat and facing enemies, and behaving rationally after a very traumatic experience. Even the best soldiers perform flawlessly during combat, or high stress situations, and then collapse in a corner and cry. I've seen it. I've done it. I don't care how well trained you are, everyone has breaking points. Ash said that seeing civilians die is hard for her to take. She just found out hundreds of thousands of them that she had been trying to protect are gone. The VS's ability to stay cool under fire has nothing to do with how well they cope with it after the fact.

This, BTW, is also a good explanation for the VS's behavior. They don't have a Collector prisoner to beat to death with bare hands, so they yell at Shepard. Stress release.

[Zulu_DFA]

JKoopman wrote...

Right. Kaidan is menstruating. That explains everything.

His L2 "flares up".

[Almostfaceman]

piemanz wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...


So, seeing if Cerberus is attacking colonies = is not investigating Cerberus.

What exactly are you smoking?

You know what, i'm not even going to bother.If you haven't wrapped your head around it yet i dont think you ever will.

Even though you said you agree with this.

iakus wrote...

It's true.  The VS has answers.  Collectors are attacking human colonies.  Cerberus is trying to stop them.

Almostfaceman wrote...

They don't behave like civilians and they wouldn't break down and cry because all of a sudden Shepard is using Cerberus equipment to save thousands and thousands of lives, including the VS's life.

Funny, because thats exactly what it looked like to me.

Guess what, soldiers are real people too.

Uh, that's what we're arguing here genius, whether or not we agree on if the scene is written that the "real people" of Ash and Kaiden would truly act that way or if the scene is horrendously written.  I think the scene should be removed or re-written.  You're presenting a circular argument.   That they walked away to me is proof of bad writing, it does not strengthen your argument.

Of course the VS has answers, but as anyone who's watched any detective show of any type would know - they so very clearly don't have ALL the answers, they just have the very tiny beginning of an investigation, not anywhere near the end.  If I'm sent to a crime scene and I clearly witness a wife kidnap her kids from her husband, then yeah I clearly see her drive off with them and the husband dialing 911.  But that of course is just the beginning.  I don't know the why.  Is she insane?  Is she protecting them?  Are they rehearsing a play?  The same with the VS.  I have seen Shepard with Cerberus equipment & personnel fight off the Collectors who were trying to take the colonists.  How did Shepard know they would be here?  Why are the Collectors taking humans?  Where are they coming from?  You're staring at Shepard, who's obviously also working on defeating the Collectors - why is Cerberus involved?  Thats.... just scratching the bare surface of questions that will pop up that need answers.  

Can I buy Ashley or Kaiden being surprised Shep is alive?  Yes.  Can I buy that the thought of Shep working with Cerberus will make them upset?  Yes.  Can I buy that they'll forget all their training, forget their purpose on Horizon in the first place, and totally blow off Shepard as a source of information for their investigation when literally millions more humans lives are potentially at stake?  No.  For allll the reasons I've listed before.  

I've been in the military.  I was a military policeman.  I, was trained to think during and AFTER a fire fight.

Annd don't even go there with "the VS is not a military policeman".  The VS would not be sent to investigate something if they didn't have training similiar to what I recieved.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 21 mars 2011 - 03:46 .

[Almostfaceman]

squee913 wrote...

There is a big difference between suppressing emotions during combat and facing enemies, and behaving rationally after a very traumatic experience. Even the best soldiers perform flawlessly during combat, or high stress situations, and then collapse in a corner and cry. I've seen it. I've done it. I don't care how well trained you are, everyone has breaking points. Ash said that seeing civilians die is hard for her to take. She just found out hundreds of thousands of them that she had been trying to protect are gone. The VS's ability to stay cool under fire has nothing to do with how well they cope with it after the fact.

Except we're not talking about X soldiers experience post combat.  We're talking the VS. 

Ok, let's take, er Feros.  You arrive.  Someone talks to you.  They die and a fire fight ensues.  Does the VS collapse in a corner afterwards?  No.  She's right behind you as you move forward.  You arrive at the colonist base proper and talk to a few folks, including the base leader.  Still, the VS is right behind you taking in information and helping you find out what's going on at the colony.  The Geth attack again.  You destroy them in another fire fight.  Right after the fire fight is over, the VS is saying "the geth are clear here, let's continue on".  You go back to the base, investigate further, then proceed.  The VS is clearly demonstrating the ability to take a high stress situation, pre and post combat, and not collapse on the floor afterward with an anxiety attack.  They're right there with you until the investigation and mission are complete.

Another example, you're investigating on Noveria.  You've just killed Benezia and you're talking witht the Rachni queen.  It's post-fire-fight.  Shepard lets the queen go.  The VS doesn't agree.  Do they collapse in a ball on the floor?  Do they run off because they seriously disagree with Shepard?  No.  There they are, cool and calm in the end, continuing to help Shepard.

These are but two example of the character they exhibit, and this is why people say the 10 year old temper tantrum on Horizon is "out of character".

Edit:  Does the VS exhibit an emotional process at times?  Yes - take for instance after Virmire.  But it's not a process that stops the VS from doing their job.  I don't mind the VS getting upset on Horizon, I mind it ultimately keeping them from continuing with their job.  They don't say "give me a moment".  They don't walk off then come back.  Heck, if you're not their love interest, they don't even send you an email, lol.

I think I've asked this before - but I'll ask it again.  If the VS really has come to the conclusion that Shepard is a traitor of some sort, why don't they try to arrest Shepard?  Personally, given their history (friend or LI) I don't think it would come to that.  Shepard could further demonstrate cooperation and probably convince the VS they're not a "traitor".  I'm just saying, this is one more facet that to me is proof that the scene is badly written - or just shouldn't exist in the first place.

I think the upset reaction would have been much more "believable" if the scene showed them coming out of stasis only to witness Shepard climbing into a ship with a Cerberus symbol on it and flying off....  but hey that's just me.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 21 mars 2011 - 05:25 .

[Almostfaceman]

@piemanz - I apologize for getting snarky, please consider my points. I take the blame if I haven't made myself clear enough.

[Whatever42]

Almostfaceman, I agree that the VS just leaving that abruptly is not realistic. However, these games are not about realism. Movies are not about realism.

The VS will not question you because questioning you about things the player already knows does not advance the plot or develop the character. The VS will not share information with you because the VS is angry and distrustful. So what left is there to talk about?

Perhaps the conversation should have ended more ambiguously, "now if you'll excuse me, I have to go get the colony security data" or some such, not make it seem like the VS is not running off to have a good cry but I can't think of very much more that could have been discussed. Do you?

[CoolioThane]

Almostfaceman wrote...

squee913 wrote...

There is a big difference between suppressing emotions during combat and facing enemies, and behaving rationally after a very traumatic experience. Even the best soldiers perform flawlessly during combat, or high stress situations, and then collapse in a corner and cry. I've seen it. I've done it. I don't care how well trained you are, everyone has breaking points. Ash said that seeing civilians die is hard for her to take. She just found out hundreds of thousands of them that she had been trying to protect are gone. The VS's ability to stay cool under fire has nothing to do with how well they cope with it after the fact.

Except we're not talking about X soldiers experience post combat.  We're talking the VS. 

Ok, let's take, er Feros.  You arrive.  Someone talks to you.  They die and a fire fight ensues.  Does the VS collapse in a corner afterwards?  No.  She's right behind you as you move forward.  You arrive at the colonist base proper and talk to a few folks, including the base leader.  Still, the VS is right behind you taking in information and helping you find out what's going on at the colony.  The Geth attack again.  You destroy them in another fire fight.  Right after the fire fight is over, the VS is saying "the geth are clear here, let's continue on".  You go back to the base, investigate further, then proceed.  The VS is clearly demonstrating the ability to take a high stress situation, pre and post combat, and not collapse on the floor afterward with an anxiety attack.  They're right there with you until the investigation and mission are complete.

Another example, you're investigating on Noveria.  You've just killed Benezia and you're talking witht the Rachni queen.  It's post-fire-fight.  Shepard lets the queen go.  The VS doesn't agree.  Do they collapse in a ball on the floor?  Do they run off because they seriously disagree with Shepard?  No.  There they are, cool and calm in the end, continuing to help Shepard.

These are but two example of the character they exhibit, and this is why people say the 10 year old temper tantrum on Horizon is "out of character".

Edit:  Does the VS exhibit an emotional process at times?  Yes - take for instance after Virmire.  But it's not a process that stops the VS from doing their job.  I don't mind the VS getting upset on Horizon, I mind it ultimately keeping them from continuing with their job.  They don't say "give me a moment".  They don't walk off then come back.  Heck, if you're not their love interest, they don't even send you an email, lol.

I think I've asked this before - but I'll ask it again.  If the VS really has come to the conclusion that Shepard is a traitor of some sort, why don't they try to arrest Shepard?  Personally, given their history (friend or LI) I don't think it would come to that.  Shepard could further demonstrate cooperation and probably convince the VS they're not a "traitor".  I'm just saying, this is one more facet that to me is proof that the scene is badly written - or just shouldn't exist in the first place.

I think the upset reaction would have been much more "believable" if the scene showed them coming out of stasis only to witness Shepard climbing into a ship with a Cerberus symbol on it and flying off....  but hey that's just me.

But the VS wasn't personally responsible for those choices/events.

On Horizon, she was placed to look out for the colony, and as the VS is a strong character, that care for humanity, and hundreds/thousands of colonists from Horizon were taken under their watch...and so of course they would be peeved.

As pointed out earlier, there was not a collector there for them to hit, so took it out on Shep, who they'd been great friends/lovers with (who disappears for two years).

Imagine you were in their position: The hundreds of people you had been assigned to look out for were taken; ergo mission failure, you are a strong willed character, and you feel damn bad about what has occured. Shepard turns up, and after two years of being upset/finally gotten over Shep, so you would be shocked and wouldn't know how to react. You see him working for Cerberus who you battled together in ME1 and were thought of as an evil, terrorist group...Mix that with being severely upset with yourself for letting the Collectors take your colonists, of course you would be angry with Shep. Very easy to understand their actions

[Almostfaceman]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Almostfaceman, I agree that the VS just leaving that abruptly is not realistic. However, these games are not about realism. Movies are not about realism.

The VS will not question you because questioning you about things the player already knows does not advance the plot or develop the character. The VS will not share information with you because the VS is angry and distrustful. So what left is there to talk about?

Perhaps the conversation should have ended more ambiguously, "now if you'll excuse me, I have to go get the colony security data" or some such, not make it seem like the VS is not running off to have a good cry but I can't think of very much more that could have been discussed. Do you?

Yes, I'm aware these games aren't about cold hard realism and that they're cinematic.  In my opinion the scene doesn't work because it brings up the issue's I (and others) have brought up.   I think it's a legit gripe that Horizon VS is not "in character".  If they HAD to have the VS make an appearance I may have handled it like I mentioned in my previous post - with the VS coming out of stasis only to see Shepard climbing aboard a Cerberus vehicle and leaving.  

And I haven't emphasized it enough in previous posts so I'll point it out now - the scene doesn't work from both sides - dialogue is poor for both Shepard and the VS.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 21 mars 2011 - 05:41 .

[Almostfaceman]

CoolioThane wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

squee913 wrote...

There is a big difference between suppressing emotions during combat and facing enemies, and behaving rationally after a very traumatic experience. Even the best soldiers perform flawlessly during combat, or high stress situations, and then collapse in a corner and cry. I've seen it. I've done it. I don't care how well trained you are, everyone has breaking points. Ash said that seeing civilians die is hard for her to take. She just found out hundreds of thousands of them that she had been trying to protect are gone. The VS's ability to stay cool under fire has nothing to do with how well they cope with it after the fact.

Except we're not talking about X soldiers experience post combat.  We're talking the VS. 

Ok, let's take, er Feros.  You arrive.  Someone talks to you.  They die and a fire fight ensues.  Does the VS collapse in a corner afterwards?  No.  She's right behind you as you move forward.  You arrive at the colonist base proper and talk to a few folks, including the base leader.  Still, the VS is right behind you taking in information and helping you find out what's going on at the colony.  The Geth attack again.  You destroy them in another fire fight.  Right after the fire fight is over, the VS is saying "the geth are clear here, let's continue on".  You go back to the base, investigate further, then proceed.  The VS is clearly demonstrating the ability to take a high stress situation, pre and post combat, and not collapse on the floor afterward with an anxiety attack.  They're right there with you until the investigation and mission are complete.

Another example, you're investigating on Noveria.  You've just killed Benezia and you're talking witht the Rachni queen.  It's post-fire-fight.  Shepard lets the queen go.  The VS doesn't agree.  Do they collapse in a ball on the floor?  Do they run off because they seriously disagree with Shepard?  No.  There they are, cool and calm in the end, continuing to help Shepard.

These are but two example of the character they exhibit, and this is why people say the 10 year old temper tantrum on Horizon is "out of character".

Edit:  Does the VS exhibit an emotional process at times?  Yes - take for instance after Virmire.  But it's not a process that stops the VS from doing their job.  I don't mind the VS getting upset on Horizon, I mind it ultimately keeping them from continuing with their job.  They don't say "give me a moment".  They don't walk off then come back.  Heck, if you're not their love interest, they don't even send you an email, lol.

I think I've asked this before - but I'll ask it again.  If the VS really has come to the conclusion that Shepard is a traitor of some sort, why don't they try to arrest Shepard?  Personally, given their history (friend or LI) I don't think it would come to that.  Shepard could further demonstrate cooperation and probably convince the VS they're not a "traitor".  I'm just saying, this is one more facet that to me is proof that the scene is badly written - or just shouldn't exist in the first place.

I think the upset reaction would have been much more "believable" if the scene showed them coming out of stasis only to witness Shepard climbing into a ship with a Cerberus symbol on it and flying off....  but hey that's just me.

But the VS wasn't personally responsible for those choices/events.

On Horizon, she was placed to look out for the colony, and as the VS is a strong character, that care for humanity, and hundreds/thousands of colonists from Horizon were taken under their watch...and so of course they would be peeved.

As pointed out earlier, there was not a collector there for them to hit, so took it out on Shep, who they'd been great friends/lovers with (who disappears for two years).

Imagine you were in their position: The hundreds of people you had been assigned to look out for were taken; ergo mission failure, you are a strong willed character, and you feel damn bad about what has occured. Shepard turns up, and after two years of being upset/finally gotten over Shep, so you would be shocked and wouldn't know how to react. You see him working for Cerberus who you battled together in ME1 and were thought of as an evil, terrorist group...Mix that with being severely upset with yourself for letting the Collectors take your colonists, of course you would be angry with Shep. Very easy to understand their actions

I have considered all that you say and I don't come to the same conclusions that you do, for reasons stated in my previous posts.  We'll probably have to agree to disagree.

[CoolioThane]

Fair enough. Sorry if I am asking too much, but could you please put your reasons together in like a list?

a)
etc. ?

Just so I can see where you are coming from

[Almostfaceman]

CoolioThane wrote...

Fair enough. Sorry if I am asking too much, but could you please put your reasons together in like a list?

a)
etc. ?

Just so I can see where you are coming from

Respectfully, that would be a lot of duplication of effort.  I invite you to read through this thread - there's a lot of good back-n-forth to think about.  I don't want to plague the other's in this discussion with me repeating myself more than I already have. 

[CoolioThane]

Fair fair (I'm just being lazy) xD

[piemanz]

Almostfaceman wrote...

@piemanz - I apologize for getting
snarky, please consider my points. I take the blame if I haven't made
myself clear enough.

No problem, i was probably as guilty of this mainly because i wasn't sure you understood what i was trying to say, but now i realise you did.

Almostfaceman wrote...

Uh, that's what we're arguing here genius, whether or not we agree on if the scene is written that the "real people" of Ash and Kaiden would truly act that way or if the scene is horrendously written.  I think the scene should be removed or re-written.  You're presenting a circular argument.   That they walked away to me is proof of bad writing, it does not strengthen your argument.

Of course the VS has answers, but as anyone who's watched any detective show of any type would know - they so very clearly don't have ALL the answers, they just have the very tiny beginning of an investigation, not anywhere near the end.  If I'm sent to a crime scene and I clearly witness a wife kidnap her kids from her husband, then yeah I clearly see her drive off with them and the husband dialing 911.  But that of course is just the beginning.  I don't know the why.  Is she insane?  Is she protecting them?  Are they rehearsing a play?  The same with the VS.  I have seen Shepard with Cerberus equipment & personnel fight off the Collectors who were trying to take the colonists.  How did Shepard know they would be here?  Why are the Collectors taking humans?  Where are they coming from?  You're staring at Shepard, who's obviously also working on defeating the Collectors - why is Cerberus involved?  Thats.... just scratching the bare surface of questions that will pop up that need answers.  

Can I buy Ashley or Kaiden being surprised Shep is alive?  Yes.  Can I buy that the thought of Shep working with Cerberus will make them upset?  Yes.  Can I buy that they'll forget all their training, forget their purpose on Horizon in the first place, and totally blow off Shepard as a source of information for their investigation when literally millions more humans lives are potentially at stake?  No.  For allll the reasons I've listed before.  

I've been in the military.  I was a military policeman.  I, was trained to think during and AFTER a fire fight.

Annd don't even go there with "the VS is not a military policeman".  The VS would not be sent to investigate something if they didn't have training similiar to what I recieved.

What i've been trying to say (probably badly) is that the VS was primarily on Horizon to set up the turrets and defend the colony, and investigating Cerberus as more of a recon part of the mission i.e. they either confirm it's Cerberus taking the colonists or not, once the attack has been repelled.

When you speak to them they say that Alliance intel got a tip that Cerberus could be involved and that Horizon could be the next colony to be hit.My best guess is that the VS was told to go to Horizon, set up the turrets and report back to the Alliance when Cerberus showed up.At this point i highly doubt the Collectors are even in the equasion from the Alliances point of view.

Ok, fast forward to the attack.The VS is busy setting up the turrets and getting the colonists ready for what is probably going to be a Cerberus attack on the colony.Then out of nowhere a huge alien ship descends on the planet releasing bugs that put most of the colonists and the VS in some sort of stasis.Suddenly what was meant to be a mission defending a colony against other humans has turned into a nighmare scenario involving unknown bug like creatures that they have absolutly no defense against.

Shepard comes along does his thing with Cerberus, retakes the colony and then we're left with the confrontation.

Now at this point, given the fact the the primary objective of the mission would be to defend the colony, with confirming wether Cerberus was involved coming in second i think it's safe to say they were convinced that Cerberus were not involved in attacking the colony, and in fact had actually saved 50% of the colonists.

You make some good points, and you're right maybe they should have asked more questions and maybe in an ideal world they would leave with sheperd and share info.But this was an attack on a colony they were charged with defending and 300,000 of the colonists have been taken.I would think their main priority now is to asses the damage and make sure the alliance is aware of what just happened.I doubt at this point Cerberus involvement  or investigating Cerberus is even on their mind.This is what i mean by "they have all the infomation they need".

My point is that the VS was infact doing their job, i think our difference in opinion is mainly what their prioritys would be.You think that investigating Cerberus should be their main priority and i think the colony would be there main priority.

Anyway i hope that kind of clears thing up as to my point of view.Like you said it may just be something we will have to agree to disagree on.

Modifié par piemanz, 21 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[Iakus]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Almostfaceman, I agree that the VS just leaving that abruptly is not realistic. However, these games are not about realism. Movies are not about realism.

The VS will not question you because questioning you about things the player already knows does not advance the plot or develop the character. The VS will not share information with you because the VS is angry and distrustful. So what left is there to talk about?

Perhaps the conversation should have ended more ambiguously, "now if you'll excuse me, I have to go get the colony security data" or some such, not make it seem like the VS is not running off to have a good cry but I can't think of very much more that could have been discussed. Do you?

Yes, I'm aware these games aren't about cold hard realism and that they're cinematic.  In my opinion the scene doesn't work because it brings up the issue's I (and others) have brought up.   I think it's a legit gripe that Horizon VS is not "in character".  If they HAD to have the VS make an appearance I may have handled it like I mentioned in my previous post - with the VS coming out of stasis only to see Shepard climbing aboard a Cerberus vehicle and leaving.  

And I haven't emphasized it enough in previous posts so I'll point it out now - the scene doesn't work from both sides - dialogue is poor for both Shepard and the VS.

This.  The "non-realism" of their reaction brings up thoughts of plot hammers or DM Fiat.  Again, I am not against the VS not hopping on board as a crew member, or even being suspicious of Cerberus.  What I do object to is hearing a train whistle while the VS is chewing me out.

[piemanz]

Deleted.

Wrong button

Modifié par piemanz, 21 mars 2011 - 08:33 .

[JKoopman]

piemanz wrote...

What i've been trying to say (probably badly) is that the VS was primarily on Horizon to set up the turrets and defend the colony, and investigating Cerberus as more of a recon part of the mission i.e. they either confirm it's Cerberus taking the colonists or not, once the attack has been repelled.

When you speak to them they say that Alliance intel got a tip that Cerberus could be involved and that Horizon could be the next colony to be hit.My best guess is that the VS was told to go to Horizon, set up the turrets and report back to the Alliance when Cerberus showed up.At this point i highly doubt the Collectors are even in the equasion from the Alliances point of view.

Ok, fast forward to the attack.The VS is busy setting up the turrets and getting the colonists ready for what is probably going to be a Cerberus attack on the colony.Then out of nowhere a huge alien ship descends on the planet releasing bugs that put most of the colonists and the VS in some sort of stasis.Suddenly what was meant to be a mission defending a colony against other humans has turned into a nighmare scenario involving unknown bug like creatures that they have absolutly no defense against.

Shepard comes along does his thing with Cerberus, retakes the colony and then we're left with the confrontation.

Now at this point, given the fact the the primary objective of the mission would be to defend the colony, with confirming wether Cerberus was involved coming in second i think it's safe to say they were convinced that Cerberus were not involved in attacking the colony, and in fact had actually saved 50% of the colonists.

You make some good points, and you're right maybe they should have asked more questions and maybe in an ideal world they would leave with sheperd and share info.But this was an attack on a colony they were charged with defending and 300,000 of the colonists have been taken.I would think their main priority now is to asses the damage and make sure the alliance is aware of what just happened.I doubt at this point Cerberus involvement  or investigating Cerberus is even on their mind.This is what i mean by "they have all the infomation they need".

My point is that the VS was infact doing their job, i think our difference in opinion is mainly what their prioritys would be.You think that investigating Cerberus should be their main priority and i think the colony would be there main priority.

Anyway i hope that kind of clears thing up as to my point of view.Like you said it may just be something we will have to agree to disagree on.

But the VS themselves even tell you that installing colony defenses is just a cover and that their real mission is to investigate Cererus (the "That's why you're on Horizon" dialog after the VS mentions hearing reports about Shepard working for Cerberus... unfortunately I can't find any videos of that selection on YouTube to confirm the exact working).

I also have to point out how ridiculously bi-polar it is for the VS to literally go, in the space of two sentences, from praising Shepard as the Hero of the Citadel, the Saviour of the Galaxy--a literal "God"--to cussing Shepard out for being a traitor simply because he mentions Cerberus.

VS: Shepard. First human Spectre, Savior of the Galaxy. You're in the presence of a God, Delan.
Shepard: Long time no see.
VS: Where were you!? Why didn't you try to contact me!?
Shepard: Not my choice. I've been in a coma for 2 years while Cerberus rebuilt me.
VS: Cerberus!? I can't believe the reports were true. How could you turn your back on the Alliance!?

And it just goes downhill from there...

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...

But the VS themselves even tell you that installing colony defenses is just a cover and that their real mission is to investigate Cererus (the "That's why you're on Horizon" dialog after the VS mentions hearing reports about Shepard working for Cerberus... unfortunately I can't find any videos of that selection on YouTube to confirm the exact working).

I also have to point out how ridiculously bi-polar it is for the VS to literally go, in the space of two sentences, from praising Shepard as the Hero of the Citadel, the Saviour of the Galaxy--a literal "God"--to cussing Shepard out for being a traitor simply because he mentions Cerberus.

VS: Shepard. First human Spectre, Savior of the Galaxy. You're in the presence of a God, Delan.
Shepard: Long time no see.
VS: Where were you!? Why didn't you try to contact me!?
Shepard: Not my choice. I've been in a coma for 2 years while Cerberus rebuilt me.
VS: Cerberus!? I can't believe the reports were true. How could you turn your back on the Alliance!?

And it just goes downhill from there...

Yes, I agree 100%.  I was just about to mention that cover dialogue - it's also foreshadowed in the earlier conversation with Delan in the garage where he says he doesn't think the turrents are the real reason the VS is there (he thinks the Alliance is spying on them or something).

And yes, bi-polar.  Geez, it's just horrible writing. 

[piemanz]

JKoopman wrote...

piemanz wrote...

What i've been trying to say (probably badly) is that the VS was primarily on Horizon to set up the turrets and defend the colony, and investigating Cerberus as more of a recon part of the mission i.e. they either confirm it's Cerberus taking the colonists or not, once the attack has been repelled.

When you speak to them they say that Alliance intel got a tip that Cerberus could be involved and that Horizon could be the next colony to be hit.My best guess is that the VS was told to go to Horizon, set up the turrets and report back to the Alliance when Cerberus showed up.At this point i highly doubt the Collectors are even in the equasion from the Alliances point of view.

Ok, fast forward to the attack.The VS is busy setting up the turrets and getting the colonists ready for what is probably going to be a Cerberus attack on the colony.Then out of nowhere a huge alien ship descends on the planet releasing bugs that put most of the colonists and the VS in some sort of stasis.Suddenly what was meant to be a mission defending a colony against other humans has turned into a nighmare scenario involving unknown bug like creatures that they have absolutly no defense against.

Shepard comes along does his thing with Cerberus, retakes the colony and then we're left with the confrontation.

Now at this point, given the fact the the primary objective of the mission would be to defend the colony, with confirming wether Cerberus was involved coming in second i think it's safe to say they were convinced that Cerberus were not involved in attacking the colony, and in fact had actually saved 50% of the colonists.

You make some good points, and you're right maybe they should have asked more questions and maybe in an ideal world they would leave with sheperd and share info.But this was an attack on a colony they were charged with defending and 300,000 of the colonists have been taken.I would think their main priority now is to asses the damage and make sure the alliance is aware of what just happened.I doubt at this point Cerberus involvement  or investigating Cerberus is even on their mind.This is what i mean by "they have all the infomation they need".

My point is that the VS was infact doing their job, i think our difference in opinion is mainly what their prioritys would be.You think that investigating Cerberus should be their main priority and i think the colony would be there main priority.

Anyway i hope that kind of clears thing up as to my point of view.Like you said it may just be something we will have to agree to disagree on.

But the VS themselves even tell you that installing colony defenses is just a cover and that their real mission is to investigate Cererus (the "That's why you're on Horizon" dialog after the VS mentions hearing reports about Shepard working for Cerberus... unfortunately I can't find any videos of that selection on YouTube to confirm the exact working).

HAHA you're right, that completely slipped by me, and yea, that totally screws up my theory.Thats actually quite annoying because i much prefered my version.


I'm not going into the Cerberus response again i think i've gone into it in quite a bit of detail.And luckily it doesn't hinge on this theory being correct.