here's another one on horizon. You see ashley paralyzed first, but we have no reason to believe the collectors landed where teh swarms attacked first. If anything I'd assume that they ended up landing on the other side of the colony. Releasing swarms and then landing in some location that would have no bearing on where the swarms were first released. smudboy is drawing literal lines between non literal components. again. sigh.
Remember the time Smudboy made his 6-part video on ME2 plot analysis? Cross-examination given (completed)
Débuté par
Lunatic LK47
, mars 07 2011 09:51
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#602
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 04:27
Iakus
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[quote]squee913 wrote...
1. I stated that Cerberus is a secretive organization that is not in the habit and telling everyone their top secret projects. This was in reference to Wilson. I made the argument that Wilson would not be famous becasue Cerberus was not going to let him tell the world how to resurrect people. Smud just showed a bunch of video that demonstrates people know "about" Cerberus. These cut scenes only show that people know Cerberus exists. I don't understand how this also proves that Cerberus is telling everyone their Darkest Secrets. We know the CIA exists, but we have no idea what they are really doing.
[/quote]
I am personally willing to let the Wilson matter drop at this point. LOTSB showed why he betrayed Cerberus. I am willing to let it lie that he simply "got a better offer" Heck maybe he was offered the fame and fortune Cerberus was going to deny him?
[quote]
2. He states that Light sabers do not need to be explained becasue he can see them being used. He asked where the resurrection machine is and that if he could see it, shep's resurrection would have been easier to swallow. First of all, what does actually seeing the machine have to do with anything? Does the fact that someone points to a machine and says, "that did it" really make a difference? Besides that, you Do see the machine working on Shepard. So is it a matter of not seeing the whole machine? do you need to see a certain percentage of it for it to be believable? I must be missing something here...[/quote]
I think his point was that we see lightsabers being used. We know what they can and can't do. We learn that they are "the weapon of the Jedi" and are genrally an accepted facet of the Star Wars universe. Even though they had not been used much in the last generation. The Cure for Death, on the other hand, is nothing more than a plot device to explain why Shep's walking around when we saw him spaced, frozen, and smacked into a planet. It's there, then gone. No explanations. No rationale for how it fits into the greter scheme of things. It ressurected Shepard, and it's purpose was fufilled, it sinks back into the toy chest of the writers ideas.
[quote]
3. He argues that TIM bringing Shepard back becasue he was a symbol and a hero makes no sense becasue none of that mattered in ME2. The events of ME2 happened after Shepard was resurrected. The fact that Shep being a hero did not matter much in the event of ME2 would have had no effect on TIM's reasons to bring him back since they had not happened yet! When TIM made the decision to bring Shep back, he was a hero, and a symbol. He had no way of Knowing that would not matter in 2 years. You can not use events that occur after a decision to argue the motivation for making the decision.[/quote]
Colonies had been disappearing for two years. "While you've been sleeping, entire colonies have been disappearing. Human colonies". Pretty much straight out of the gate, TIM sends Shepard off to deal with the colonies. Throughout the game, it's always "build the team" "Omega IV Relay" Any talk about the coming Reaper war or leading the galaxy has come from players, not the game. In ME 2, this "symbol" was mainly "TIM's errand boy"
Unless that's the symbol TIM is trying to convey?
[quote]
4. He misunderstands my first argument. I never said that Shep resurrection was good becasue and only becasue it's science fiction. I think it is good for the effects it has on the gamer and the story. I was arguing against his presentation, where he claims that it is bad becasue this is not how one writes a story. My point was that there is no "Right" way to write a story in science fiction, not that Science fiction is a hand wave to let you do whatever you want.[/quote]
Well, you did say he was misunderstanding your point. That could simply be crossed signals.
But while there may not be a "right" or "wrong" way to write a story, there are aspects that are difficult to do well. TIme travel is one example. Ressurection is another. In my opinion, and it seems Smudboys and many others, Bioware did tell this ressurection story well. It's abrupt, smacking of deus ex machina, and carries absolutely no wieght for the rest of the story. Honestly, it would have been simpler and easier to swallow if they simply told a tale of "Shepard nearly died, but was rescued by Cerberus, who spent the next two years treating his injuries. And oh, yeah, his injuries were so severe he required extensive cybernetic augmentation as well"
[quote]
5. In part 2 He asked why they don't try to find information about the collectors. I show many examples where they DID try to find info about the collectors. His counter argument was that even though they did, they were unsuccessful. That may be true, but that was not the argument. He said they didn't even bother to try, I showed that they did. The fact that those attempt were unsuccessful does not change that falseness of his argument. Instead of defending his argument, he side steps it with a new one.[/quote]
I think his point was the attempts to gain intel on them should have been a more central part of the game. Rather than the loyalty missions. After all, the main story is "preparing" for the mission. While the personal missions may be part of getting the team mentally prepared, you see very liitle in the way of actually gearing up for the mission. Shep gets the team upgrades mainly on mall runs or tripping over stuff on his recruitment/loyalty missions. He seems to primairlly trust TIM for his information sources, even after TIM has proven himself to be manipulative and unreliable.
You may argue against the specifics about what Smudboy thinks should have been done in the game. But I do agree that the game did an abysmal job at showing Shepard preparing for a dangerous mission. Honestly, mining for minerals to upgrade the Normandy was the most plot-centric activity you could do! How sad is that?
[quote]
6. He does that same thing with the the shadow broker prob. He claims that they should send probes through the omega 4 relay for information and that the Shadow broker successfully did it. I argue that he would not have told Cerberus this, so Cerb would still have thought it impossible, and that the probe came back as remains which is not a successful attempt to gain information. He changes the argument to it proving that things can return form the omega 4 relay, which has nothing to do with anything. That fact that scrap metal can return does nothing to gain intel...[/quote]
Once the Reaper IFF was in Shepards' hands, there was no reason not to reverse-engineer it and stap duplicates onto probes. But...we all know what came next.
As to Smudboy's pont. the fact that remains were recovered at all proves that somehow the Shadow Broker managed to retrieve something from the other end of the relay. Remains, yes, but that's more than anyone else had managed. Who's to say how far he was from creating a probe that could be retrieved with useful information?
As the Mythbusters say: "Failure is always an option" Even if an experiment goes wrong, as long as you learned something from it, it's a success. the Shadow Broker was succeeding.
[quote]
7. He says that you could mine the omega 4 relay becasue the relay point to the galactic core and the IFF would mean the collectors don't drift far from the relay. All very true, but Cerberus had no knowledge of any of this until shepard uncovered it. They did not know that they were in the galactic core, or that they would not drift millions of kilometers, so they would still think mining the relay was pointless. You can't use information as an argument when the story hasn't reviled it yet.[/quote]
This is quite true.
But hey, it's science fiction, right? (sorry, couldn't resist
)
[quote]
8. He argues that Shep should monitor collector communications. I state that there is only one ship to jumps in and out... who would they be sending messages to. He answer is that shep has the prothean visions that allow him to understand communications. ok.... again... what communications?[/quote]
This I think was his opinion that it should have been an option, rather than it was an option. He holds the opinion (one that I share) that not enough was made of the Cipher. If somehow, the Collectors had retained enough of their Prothean minds to communicate with each other, that could have been an information source for Shepard. One that would actually link back to the first game. Given that Collectors are little more than specialized husks in ME 2, this idea is unfeasible. But I kinda wish something like this had been implemented.
[quote]
9. He claims that while all of the "daddy issues" would have had great affects on the squads minds, they should have been immune to them. What? Garrus is an amazing sniper, and that's fine. But who really thinks that a trained solider cannot be distracted by such powerful events and that this would not affect their jobs??? I don't care if you are a Delta Force operative, you are still vulnerable to emotional distractions. That's why many special forces members don't have families or the like.[/quote]
These are hit and miss. Some characters I think have good reason to be worried or distracted (Tali, Thane, Miranda) but others, either due to the nature of their issue or their personality type, should have been able to handle the mission without being distracted (Grunt, Jacob, Zaeed, and possibly Legion). This goes more towards opinions on the nature of the missions and perhaps how overly simplistic the loyalty system was,
[/quote]
1. I stated that Cerberus is a secretive organization that is not in the habit and telling everyone their top secret projects. This was in reference to Wilson. I made the argument that Wilson would not be famous becasue Cerberus was not going to let him tell the world how to resurrect people. Smud just showed a bunch of video that demonstrates people know "about" Cerberus. These cut scenes only show that people know Cerberus exists. I don't understand how this also proves that Cerberus is telling everyone their Darkest Secrets. We know the CIA exists, but we have no idea what they are really doing.
[/quote]
I am personally willing to let the Wilson matter drop at this point. LOTSB showed why he betrayed Cerberus. I am willing to let it lie that he simply "got a better offer" Heck maybe he was offered the fame and fortune Cerberus was going to deny him?
[quote]
2. He states that Light sabers do not need to be explained becasue he can see them being used. He asked where the resurrection machine is and that if he could see it, shep's resurrection would have been easier to swallow. First of all, what does actually seeing the machine have to do with anything? Does the fact that someone points to a machine and says, "that did it" really make a difference? Besides that, you Do see the machine working on Shepard. So is it a matter of not seeing the whole machine? do you need to see a certain percentage of it for it to be believable? I must be missing something here...[/quote]
I think his point was that we see lightsabers being used. We know what they can and can't do. We learn that they are "the weapon of the Jedi" and are genrally an accepted facet of the Star Wars universe. Even though they had not been used much in the last generation. The Cure for Death, on the other hand, is nothing more than a plot device to explain why Shep's walking around when we saw him spaced, frozen, and smacked into a planet. It's there, then gone. No explanations. No rationale for how it fits into the greter scheme of things. It ressurected Shepard, and it's purpose was fufilled, it sinks back into the toy chest of the writers ideas.
[quote]
3. He argues that TIM bringing Shepard back becasue he was a symbol and a hero makes no sense becasue none of that mattered in ME2. The events of ME2 happened after Shepard was resurrected. The fact that Shep being a hero did not matter much in the event of ME2 would have had no effect on TIM's reasons to bring him back since they had not happened yet! When TIM made the decision to bring Shep back, he was a hero, and a symbol. He had no way of Knowing that would not matter in 2 years. You can not use events that occur after a decision to argue the motivation for making the decision.[/quote]
Colonies had been disappearing for two years. "While you've been sleeping, entire colonies have been disappearing. Human colonies". Pretty much straight out of the gate, TIM sends Shepard off to deal with the colonies. Throughout the game, it's always "build the team" "Omega IV Relay" Any talk about the coming Reaper war or leading the galaxy has come from players, not the game. In ME 2, this "symbol" was mainly "TIM's errand boy"
Unless that's the symbol TIM is trying to convey?
[quote]
4. He misunderstands my first argument. I never said that Shep resurrection was good becasue and only becasue it's science fiction. I think it is good for the effects it has on the gamer and the story. I was arguing against his presentation, where he claims that it is bad becasue this is not how one writes a story. My point was that there is no "Right" way to write a story in science fiction, not that Science fiction is a hand wave to let you do whatever you want.[/quote]
Well, you did say he was misunderstanding your point. That could simply be crossed signals.
But while there may not be a "right" or "wrong" way to write a story, there are aspects that are difficult to do well. TIme travel is one example. Ressurection is another. In my opinion, and it seems Smudboys and many others, Bioware did tell this ressurection story well. It's abrupt, smacking of deus ex machina, and carries absolutely no wieght for the rest of the story. Honestly, it would have been simpler and easier to swallow if they simply told a tale of "Shepard nearly died, but was rescued by Cerberus, who spent the next two years treating his injuries. And oh, yeah, his injuries were so severe he required extensive cybernetic augmentation as well"
[quote]
5. In part 2 He asked why they don't try to find information about the collectors. I show many examples where they DID try to find info about the collectors. His counter argument was that even though they did, they were unsuccessful. That may be true, but that was not the argument. He said they didn't even bother to try, I showed that they did. The fact that those attempt were unsuccessful does not change that falseness of his argument. Instead of defending his argument, he side steps it with a new one.[/quote]
I think his point was the attempts to gain intel on them should have been a more central part of the game. Rather than the loyalty missions. After all, the main story is "preparing" for the mission. While the personal missions may be part of getting the team mentally prepared, you see very liitle in the way of actually gearing up for the mission. Shep gets the team upgrades mainly on mall runs or tripping over stuff on his recruitment/loyalty missions. He seems to primairlly trust TIM for his information sources, even after TIM has proven himself to be manipulative and unreliable.
You may argue against the specifics about what Smudboy thinks should have been done in the game. But I do agree that the game did an abysmal job at showing Shepard preparing for a dangerous mission. Honestly, mining for minerals to upgrade the Normandy was the most plot-centric activity you could do! How sad is that?
[quote]
6. He does that same thing with the the shadow broker prob. He claims that they should send probes through the omega 4 relay for information and that the Shadow broker successfully did it. I argue that he would not have told Cerberus this, so Cerb would still have thought it impossible, and that the probe came back as remains which is not a successful attempt to gain information. He changes the argument to it proving that things can return form the omega 4 relay, which has nothing to do with anything. That fact that scrap metal can return does nothing to gain intel...[/quote]
Once the Reaper IFF was in Shepards' hands, there was no reason not to reverse-engineer it and stap duplicates onto probes. But...we all know what came next.
As to Smudboy's pont. the fact that remains were recovered at all proves that somehow the Shadow Broker managed to retrieve something from the other end of the relay. Remains, yes, but that's more than anyone else had managed. Who's to say how far he was from creating a probe that could be retrieved with useful information?
As the Mythbusters say: "Failure is always an option" Even if an experiment goes wrong, as long as you learned something from it, it's a success. the Shadow Broker was succeeding.
[quote]
7. He says that you could mine the omega 4 relay becasue the relay point to the galactic core and the IFF would mean the collectors don't drift far from the relay. All very true, but Cerberus had no knowledge of any of this until shepard uncovered it. They did not know that they were in the galactic core, or that they would not drift millions of kilometers, so they would still think mining the relay was pointless. You can't use information as an argument when the story hasn't reviled it yet.[/quote]
This is quite true.
But hey, it's science fiction, right? (sorry, couldn't resist
)[quote]
8. He argues that Shep should monitor collector communications. I state that there is only one ship to jumps in and out... who would they be sending messages to. He answer is that shep has the prothean visions that allow him to understand communications. ok.... again... what communications?[/quote]
This I think was his opinion that it should have been an option, rather than it was an option. He holds the opinion (one that I share) that not enough was made of the Cipher. If somehow, the Collectors had retained enough of their Prothean minds to communicate with each other, that could have been an information source for Shepard. One that would actually link back to the first game. Given that Collectors are little more than specialized husks in ME 2, this idea is unfeasible. But I kinda wish something like this had been implemented.
[quote]
9. He claims that while all of the "daddy issues" would have had great affects on the squads minds, they should have been immune to them. What? Garrus is an amazing sniper, and that's fine. But who really thinks that a trained solider cannot be distracted by such powerful events and that this would not affect their jobs??? I don't care if you are a Delta Force operative, you are still vulnerable to emotional distractions. That's why many special forces members don't have families or the like.[/quote]
These are hit and miss. Some characters I think have good reason to be worried or distracted (Tali, Thane, Miranda) but others, either due to the nature of their issue or their personality type, should have been able to handle the mission without being distracted (Grunt, Jacob, Zaeed, and possibly Legion). This goes more towards opinions on the nature of the missions and perhaps how overly simplistic the loyalty system was,
[/quote]
#603
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 04:28
Doctor_Jackstraw
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also i'm pretty confident that if shepard jumped into the relay and saw thousands of ships and collector bases he'd probably escape and contact the alliance. but since there was just one he made the decision to get on board this thing they just now discovered and were unable to discover previously because it was a huge surprise to everyone, shepard, his crew, the player, when you first see that thing. its possible there are no prothean artifacts of this base because the base was constructed after the protheans were whiped out and converted into Keeper esque husks. The reapers only use that which they can fully control. For the reapers's subjects to have a face and a voice would subvert everything we know about them from the entirety of the first game. The collectors are just keepers with guns. also we dont know much about them because the civilized nations of the galaxy know next to nothing about them. There is still mystery in the mass effect universe. mystery and intrigue. it might look like it isn't but there is time and time again points of discovery within the fiction of the series.
(it was quite a ways past the debree field before you even get to see the collector base, so shadow broker's probes would have gotten a bunch of pictures of crashed ships at best, we also have no reason to assume cerberus or cerberus contacts had not tried probing the relay before, it's stated it's been researched but no one could safely map, meaning there are countless failures throughout time, probing the relay has a history of failing.)
(it was quite a ways past the debree field before you even get to see the collector base, so shadow broker's probes would have gotten a bunch of pictures of crashed ships at best, we also have no reason to assume cerberus or cerberus contacts had not tried probing the relay before, it's stated it's been researched but no one could safely map, meaning there are countless failures throughout time, probing the relay has a history of failing.)
#604
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 04:29
squee913
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SSV Enterprise wrote...
smudboy's second response annoyed me enough that I typed up these responses to his first few counter-points. I may end up making my own video response -- even though I have no idea how to do that.
If you really want to, I can tell you anything you need to know about making videos. I can even help some. I however, have already told him that I will not create video responses to his responses. I have several diffrent LPs to do, and I don't fixate all my videos on one game. :innocent:
#605
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 04:35
Iakus
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Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
here's another one on horizon. You see ashley paralyzed first, but we have no reason to believe the collectors landed where teh swarms attacked first. If anything I'd assume that they ended up landing on the other side of the colony. Releasing swarms and then landing in some location that would have no bearing on where the swarms were first released. smudboy is drawing literal lines between non literal components. again. sigh.
But Lilith,, who was literally steps away from the VS, was picked up. However they went about their "Collecting", they got to the area where Ash/Kaidan was frozen.
#606
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 04:44
Doctor_Jackstraw
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i really want to restate the sense of urgency these events unfolded in. Shepard had to go into the relay because they took his crew and friends. the reapers used the IFF to lock onto the normandy. if the iff were activated at a cerberus base the reaper ship would have locked onto that base and captured the entire science crew and taken the iff back. The only reason they dont reclaim the iff is because edi and joker manage to suck the remaining collectors out the airlock. after that the stakes are so high that waiting arround for probes would be wasting time. Just like when shepard jumped into illos without a plan, he knew if he didn't act fast the situation would go from bad to worse, later we find out that if he hadn't gone in the situation would have gotten much worse, meaning shepard's instinct was correct.
what ****ty storytelling. instinct? intuition? feelings, pride, loyalty? **** that ****!! better make the plot as slow and plodding as possible. Instead of trying something risky that might work you should try something safe, boring, and lazy that while taking up precious time and resources might potentially help you possible come up with a plan that might one day lead to the ability to just fly into the thing and see what is going on jesus christ he could have escaped if it was more than one ship. There's enough of a lull between fighting the occulus, escaping the debree field, and seeing the collector homeworld that joker could have pulled a 180 and warped them out of there before they got within range of the collector ships.
holy**** i guess if you look at and analyze what happened you can discover that they were using a STEALTH SHIP to run a SCOUTING RUN, the run turned out to not require any further action and they went in to use thier big team of badasses to try to figure out what they could while joker repaired the normandy. They had no plan until edi scanned the collector ship because the collectors left no information for shepard to follow. Otherwise someone else would have probably blown up the collector homeworld already. shepard solved the mystery, he brought a team that would be able to handle any situation, jumped into an unknown situation, and makes decisions accordingly. You don't end up needing everyone but no matter how it turns out you're able to make good decisions that get your squad out alive, because you gave yourself several options. It's an organic development of a mission, not a contrived set of twelve tasks that each require a different member.
Also why would you need a demolitions expert when you have a supercomputer that can analyze structural weaknesses and live in a time when anyone with thumbs can correctly opperate any form of explosive device?
smudboy puts too much credence on how effective a bomb actually is. (movies exaggerate a bit doodz!! nukes are effective but you can't blow up a planet with it you can only really blow up patches of the surface)
what ****ty storytelling. instinct? intuition? feelings, pride, loyalty? **** that ****!! better make the plot as slow and plodding as possible. Instead of trying something risky that might work you should try something safe, boring, and lazy that while taking up precious time and resources might potentially help you possible come up with a plan that might one day lead to the ability to just fly into the thing and see what is going on jesus christ he could have escaped if it was more than one ship. There's enough of a lull between fighting the occulus, escaping the debree field, and seeing the collector homeworld that joker could have pulled a 180 and warped them out of there before they got within range of the collector ships.
holy**** i guess if you look at and analyze what happened you can discover that they were using a STEALTH SHIP to run a SCOUTING RUN, the run turned out to not require any further action and they went in to use thier big team of badasses to try to figure out what they could while joker repaired the normandy. They had no plan until edi scanned the collector ship because the collectors left no information for shepard to follow. Otherwise someone else would have probably blown up the collector homeworld already. shepard solved the mystery, he brought a team that would be able to handle any situation, jumped into an unknown situation, and makes decisions accordingly. You don't end up needing everyone but no matter how it turns out you're able to make good decisions that get your squad out alive, because you gave yourself several options. It's an organic development of a mission, not a contrived set of twelve tasks that each require a different member.
Also why would you need a demolitions expert when you have a supercomputer that can analyze structural weaknesses and live in a time when anyone with thumbs can correctly opperate any form of explosive device?
smudboy puts too much credence on how effective a bomb actually is. (movies exaggerate a bit doodz!! nukes are effective but you can't blow up a planet with it you can only really blow up patches of the surface)
#607
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 04:49
Doctor_Jackstraw
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iakus wrote...
Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
here's another one on horizon. You see ashley paralyzed first, but we have no reason to believe the collectors landed where teh swarms attacked first. If anything I'd assume that they ended up landing on the other side of the colony. Releasing swarms and then landing in some location that would have no bearing on where the swarms were first released. smudboy is drawing literal lines between non literal components. again. sigh.
But Lilith,, who was literally steps away from the VS, was picked up. However they went about their "Collecting", they got to the area where Ash/Kaidan was frozen.
It's possible that shepard showed up JUST AT THE RIGHT TIME so that the shepards had to divert attention from gathering survivors just as they got close to where kaiden/ashley were. We can even assume that the effect could have worn off during shepard's attack and they were able to fight/escape.
Also the order was "collect the colony". I don't think mugshots are something collectors would or could use, only harbinger would actually have a brain capable of understanding the concept. so specific instructions would probably be confusing for the collectors and they'd be incapable of identifying what a face is. they dont have faces. they don't even have reasoning functionality.
"find this face" "...a human" "no a specific human" ".....?" "assuming control!"
Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 28 mars 2011 - 04:49 .
#608
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 04:57
Fiery Phoenix
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Iakus, is it wrong that I would LOVE for you to make your own ME2 analysis videos?iakus wrote...
But Lilith,, who was literally steps away from the VS, was picked up. However they went about their "Collecting", they got to the area where Ash/Kaidan was frozen.Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
here's another one on horizon. You see ashley paralyzed first, but we have no reason to believe the collectors landed where teh swarms attacked first. If anything I'd assume that they ended up landing on the other side of the colony. Releasing swarms and then landing in some location that would have no bearing on where the swarms were first released. smudboy is drawing literal lines between non literal components. again. sigh.
#609
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 05:06
ADLegend21
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Ther'e also collectors where you see the man helping up the woman and has the interactive "man in stasis" where squadmates comment on it but he's not collected and there are a few more people sandwiched in between squads of colelctors and they aren't collected either. they were left alone even though they're surrounded by the aliens abducting them.iakus wrote...
Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
here's another one on horizon. You see ashley paralyzed first, but we have no reason to believe the collectors landed where teh swarms attacked first. If anything I'd assume that they ended up landing on the other side of the colony. Releasing swarms and then landing in some location that would have no bearing on where the swarms were first released. smudboy is drawing literal lines between non literal components. again. sigh.
But Lilith,, who was literally steps away from the VS, was picked up. However they went about their "Collecting", they got to the area where Ash/Kaidan was frozen.
#610
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 05:14
JKoopman
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iakus wrote...
Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
here's another one on horizon. You see ashley paralyzed first, but we have no reason to believe the collectors landed where teh swarms attacked first. If anything I'd assume that they ended up landing on the other side of the colony. Releasing swarms and then landing in some location that would have no bearing on where the swarms were first released. smudboy is drawing literal lines between non literal components. again. sigh.
But Lilith,, who was literally steps away from the VS, was picked up. However they went about their "Collecting", they got to the area where Ash/Kaidan was frozen.
Also, I think the point he was making was the the seeker paralysis wears off after a period of time. Ashley/Kaidan was the first one to be stung, therefor it would make sense for the first people stung to also be the first people collected. You don't start on the other end and work your way back, because the first group would be waking up before you were finished with your collection.
And yes, the fact that Lilith also was collected is a pretty big monkey wrench in the theory that the Collectors simply never got around to the VS.
Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
i really want to restate the sense of urgency these events unfolded in. Shepard had to go into the relay because they took his crew and friends.
You know, I actually agree with you on this point. I think smudboy overlooked and failed to consider the fact that your entire crew had been abducted and time wasn't exactly on your side (although waiting was still an option for Renegades). However, I must also point out that the clock was only against you by virtue of the PLOT HAMMER that forced Shepard and all 12 squadmates onto the Kodiak and off to some mysterious unseen mission conveniently while Joker and EDI are working the kinks out of the jury rigged Reaper tech they had just installed in the Normandy's systems, so it's strangely a case of bad writing saved by more bad writing.
Modifié par JKoopman, 28 mars 2011 - 05:19 .
#611
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 05:16
wizardryforever
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Well there is the distinct possibility that Shepard simply got there in the nick of time. Perhaps the VS was the very next person that would have been taken, but Shepard interrupted them. Sure it screams plot convenience, but it is plausible. It's not like we saw them skip over him/her or anything.iakus wrote...
Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
here's another one on horizon. You see ashley paralyzed first, but we have no reason to believe the collectors landed where teh swarms attacked first. If anything I'd assume that they ended up landing on the other side of the colony. Releasing swarms and then landing in some location that would have no bearing on where the swarms were first released. smudboy is drawing literal lines between non literal components. again. sigh.
But Lilith,, who was literally steps away from the VS, was picked up. However they went about their "Collecting", they got to the area where Ash/Kaidan was frozen.
I think that's the point that the good Doctor above is trying to make.
#612
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 05:18
SSV Enterprise
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We don't know that the VS was the first person stung in the whole colony. It may be just coincidence that the Collectors were right between gathering Lilith and moving over to the VS when Shepard pushed them back.
#613
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 05:22
JKoopman
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SSV Enterprise wrote...
We don't know that the VS was the first person stung in the whole colony. It may be just coincidence that the Collectors were right between gathering Lilith and moving over to the VS when Shepard pushed them back.
Perhaps not the VERY first, but certainly among the first. We see the Collector ship approaching the colony, the seeker swarm decends, Ashey/Kaidan start firing while everyone else panics and runs and then they get stung. They are literally the very first person that we see frozen in the attack.
#614
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 05:24
J. Finley
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I think it would have actually been better if they captured the VS, and then rescue them at some point during the SM. That would at least give them a reason to join you again, even if it is at the end of the game. It's not like they would get any less of an appearance than they already do.
Modifié par Jayman1337, 28 mars 2011 - 05:26 .
#615
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 06:56
Sable Phoenix
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You know, I think the biggest testament to the weakness of the story and plot and characterization of Mass Effect 2 is the very existence of threads like this. You didn't see very many threads crop up dissecting the original Mass Effect this way, and they certainly didn't run for dozens or hundreds of pages like they do for Mass Effect 2.
Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 06:57 .
#616
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 07:04
Doctor_Jackstraw
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JKoopman wrote...
You know, I actually agree with you on this point. I think smudboy overlooked and failed to consider the fact that your entire crew had been abducted and time wasn't exactly on your side (although waiting was still an option for Renegades). However, I must also point out that the clock was only against you by virtue of the PLOT HAMMER that forced Shepard and all 12 squadmates onto the Kodiak and off to some mysterious unseen mission conveniently while Joker and EDI are working the kinks out of the jury rigged Reaper tech they had just installed in the Normandy's systems, so it's strangely a case of bad writing saved by more bad writing.
I think that wouldn't have been such an issue if when you landed on large planets the rest of your squad took up positions hanging out arround the city. That way there'd be presidence for everyone going together. (Also it might have helped if you played the mission, and then right at the end after the mission complete screen before any "we are back on the ship" cutscenes your crew gets abducted) That would have been incredibly SHOCKING.
#617
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 07:12
Fiery Phoenix
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It's because of ME1; if ME2 had been a game on its own without any relevance to ME1, or if ME1 never existed to begin with, none of this would be so much of an issue. But when you introduce me to a series with an awesome beginning and then start going south in the very next chapter and pretend there never was a prequel, it's only natural I'm going to complain. Come to think of it: Just about every single person who criticizes ME2's plot loved ME1's.Sable Phoenix wrote...
You know, I think the biggest testament to the weakness of the story and plot and characterization of Mass Effect 2 is the very existence of threads like this. You didn't see very many threads crop up dissecting the original Mass Effect this way, and they certainly didn't run for dozens or hundreds of pages like they do for Mass Effect 2.
Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 07:16 .
#618
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 07:15
Gibb_Shepard
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Smudboy's counter argument to this is completely ripping it to shreds. Some of the stuff this other guy says is cheap.
"It's SCIENCE FICTION. Anything can happen in SCIENCE FICTION" Weakest argument ever...
"It's SCIENCE FICTION. Anything can happen in SCIENCE FICTION" Weakest argument ever...
#619
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 07:17
squee913
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Sable Phoenix wrote...
You know, I think the biggest testament to the weakness of the story and plot and characterization of Mass Effect 2 is the very existence of threads like this. You didn't see very many threads crop up dissecting the original Mass Effect this way, and they certainly didn't run for dozens or hundreds of pages like they do for Mass Effect 2.
You did before Mass Effect 2 came out. Once Mass Effect 3 comes out, these forums will die down as all the haters and defenders move on to the next game. Someone who has been here longer than me can give more accurate numbers, but out of the millions and millions of people who have this game, there are well under 100 people on this forum that seriously do not like the story and argue about it day after day. No matter how loud they are, 100 people do not determine the failure of a game.
Now I understand that 100 people arguing for do not determine the success of a game. It just means that the long threads on this forum are not a testament to anything but the love of debate.
#620
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 07:22
squee913
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Btw, Youtube took away my unlimited upload length {smilie} Don't know why, since I have no strikes what so ever....
Anywho, I had to split part 3 into 3 videos. Part one and two are up and part three will be up in 30 mintues or so.
Part 1
Part 2
This is it folks! I am done with this thing. When Smud put up his response, I will of course tag it to my video, but I won't be making anymore Vids. Hopefully you will watch them and make up your own mind.
I will still be here however, to talk about anything you guys want! I have to say, you guys are a blast to talk to!!!
Anywho, I had to split part 3 into 3 videos. Part one and two are up and part three will be up in 30 mintues or so.
Part 1
Part 2
This is it folks! I am done with this thing. When Smud put up his response, I will of course tag it to my video, but I won't be making anymore Vids. Hopefully you will watch them and make up your own mind.
I will still be here however, to talk about anything you guys want! I have to say, you guys are a blast to talk to!!!
#621
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 07:23
Fiery Phoenix
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I enjoyed Part #3, Stephen. I look forward to Smud's response to it. Should be interesting, as I think you did make several good points.
#622
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 07:36
squee913
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Fiery Phoenix wrote...
I enjoyed Part #3, Stephen. I look forward to Smud's response to it. Should be interesting, as I think you did make several good points.
but... I haven't finshed uploading it... are you a wizard?
#623
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 07:43
Bourne Endeavor
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I'll tag a few and see how far I go...
Many of those people possess damning evidence of rather nefarious experiments Cerberus has employed. Vasir essentially insinuates the Council is quite aware in fact. To use your example, we know the CIA exists yet can only speculate the extent of their activities. Their intentions, motivations, everything is acutely ambiguous, whereas Cerberus practically screams, "we're right here, doing evil things!"
What is perplexing about Wilson's betrayal is he would be a "rock star," in Cerberus. He is one of two individuals in the entire galaxy that solved death. His importance would be instrumental and his reputation amongst his peers would be second only to Miranda. In future projects, Wilson would be the immediate consideration. The holes continue upon further investigation.
If he were a mole of the Shadow Broker, who sought Shepard's corpse to barter a deal with the Collectors, wouldn't the destruction of a space station and consequential incineration of Shepard's body... pose a bit of an issue? If I instructed my employee to perform a task and he reported back claiming to have done so but then lit it on fire. My eyebrow is going to arch.
Even if we excuse this inconsistency, Wilson has now become the nemesis of one of the most ruthless organizations in the known galaxy, an organization that has deemed experimentation on human life a feasible and worthwhile objective to forward their ambition. Not being paid enough should be the least of his concerns. At the forefront would be his nigh inevitable, and likely, torment when Cerberus gets a hold of him.
Moreover, that does not consider his failure for the Shadow Broker. Now the two most ruthless syndicates in existence are gunning for him. Either Wilson was written to be is the dumbest genius in human history, or they did not think this through.
His position is their existence is as commonplace as a handgun. It is not abrupt nor pertains to a specific event or character. It is similar to monsters in fantastical stories. Few games offer exposition of their origin unless it facilitates the plot in a meaningful capacity. We accept their presence because they are there for us to see, be it direct or through random encounters. The Lazarus Project is meant to influence the plot and is specific to Shepard. Therefore, it is a unique concept existing beyond common lore.
If I offered you a shotgun with the capability to discharge pulse radiation or rockets. Your immediate response would be, "where in the world did you get this?" From a narrative perspective, I may reply it was alien technology and this works because I have now explained the mysterious weapon. The Lazarus Project merely happens. This is a rare instance of subverting the "Show don't tell" trope by doing neither.
The conundrum is more why would he bother. At this junction, Cerberus knew nothing about the Collectors and even less about the Reapers. What they were well aware of is Shepard was their active antagonist; someone who destroyed numerous facilities within their operation and may potentially have glaring physiological trauma because of them. Presume the Lazarus Project had been successful earlier than anticipated or Veetor was killed/had not recorded Collector data. TIM would have revived his company's worst opposition and have no efficient evidence to convince him/her to cooperate, begrudgingly or otherwise.
In addition, Shepard's heroics were being tentatively diminished prior to his/her death. The Council had already denied belief in the Reapers, citing the invasion perpetrated by a charismatic former Spectre and his Geth. Thus, while civilians may throw glowing acclamations upon Shepard, the relevant individuals such as the Alliance and Council were washing their hands of him/her.
There is a way people write a "Good" story, albeit it is subjective to some extent. Whilst I have my own grievances about killing the protagonist at the onset, it can be accomplished well, with proper exposition. Mass Effect 2 does not address anything and renders death and resurrection a cheap plot device they can insert one-liners about at random occurrences. The moment you leave the tutorial is where what should be a defining aspect of Shepard's character, is completely forgotten. It is not until Lair of the Shadow Broker someone asks Shepard how (s)he feels. It has no plot relevance, no importance and does not develop in the story or Shepard. Thus, it is a gimmick in lieu of an integral part of story.
We found minimalistic codex data about them being Prothens and they have a penchant for Shepard’s friends; maybe one wanted a date with Ashley. We did not discover anything that would provide an advantage or affirm our strategy would be efficient. Unsuccessful is an accurate defense because if we were unsuccessful in gathering intel, evidently we were unprepared. What if when we crossed through the Omega-4 Relay we discovered the Collectors have a fleet of five ships; better yet, we confront the Reaper form of Harbinger. The Normandy and our entire squad of badasses would be obliterated. That was his qualm. We had no forehand knowledge of what to expect and ran in blind. We were only successful through sheer dumb luck and because the plot says so.
Did Cerberus even try? That is the fundamental question, and obviously, the answer is no, hence why smudboy called TIM a moron. They have already achieved the impossible by solving death. Why not attempt doubling up and see what happens? Their return as scrap metal is irrelevant. They still returned. Therefore, we deduce a superior built probe might favor better or if we can determine the cause was of hostile nature from an alien force that some type of distraction is warranted; a legion of probes perhaps. The point being is TIM never bothered to begin with and Shepard winged it.
They may have uncovered this tidbit had they bothered to probe it like the Shadow Broker, although it does not specify if he concluded the magnitude of the drift or if there was any. When we do have the IFF, why not send in probes then to gather intel in lieu of hoping for the best? It was not as though the Omega-4 Relay was going anywhere. We still haven’t a clue what the opposition will be.
When in the plot did we ever verify with irrefutable evidence they had one ship? They may use one ship but we do not know that for certain. Not even TIM knows much about the Collectors. They could have multiple ships and we have been fortunate enough only to run into one of them. Now if Shepard monitored communications and this was revealed in the narrative, we would be in business. All that is presented is EDI confirming a hunch Joker had it was the same space that killed Shepard. In addition, we could determine what colony they may hit, possibly trap them etcetera.
If a trained soldier is incapable of placing the mission before his revenge, then he is a poorly trained soldier. Garrus demonstrates no hesitation in any other mission nor does he when a similar scenario derived in Mass Effect, wherein we could chase down Dr. Heart. If anything, he should be motivated to survive so he may have an opportunity to avenge his comrades. Miranda is the chief advisor and XO of the mission yet thoughts of her sister would affect her leadership capabilities?
This is what she ponders when a hail of bullets rain down her squad and a single hazardous step may kill her? If that is the case, TIM might wish to reconsider whom he hires. You are exaggerating emotional reactions. They are professionals, and would not be so easily hampered. Loyalty is meant to be a mechanic and is believable enough that I do not have any qualms with it personally, but this lining of reasoning is stretching it.
squee913 wrote...
1. I stated that Cerberus is a secretive organization that is not in the habit and telling everyone their top secret projects. This was in reference to Wilson. I made the argument that Wilson would not be famous becasue Cerberus was not going to let him tell the world how to resurrect people. Smud just showed a bunch of video that demonstrates people know "about" Cerberus. These cut scenes only show that people know Cerberus exists. I don't understand how this also proves that Cerberus is telling everyone their Darkest Secrets. We know the CIA exists, but we have no idea what they are really doing.
Many of those people possess damning evidence of rather nefarious experiments Cerberus has employed. Vasir essentially insinuates the Council is quite aware in fact. To use your example, we know the CIA exists yet can only speculate the extent of their activities. Their intentions, motivations, everything is acutely ambiguous, whereas Cerberus practically screams, "we're right here, doing evil things!"
What is perplexing about Wilson's betrayal is he would be a "rock star," in Cerberus. He is one of two individuals in the entire galaxy that solved death. His importance would be instrumental and his reputation amongst his peers would be second only to Miranda. In future projects, Wilson would be the immediate consideration. The holes continue upon further investigation.
If he were a mole of the Shadow Broker, who sought Shepard's corpse to barter a deal with the Collectors, wouldn't the destruction of a space station and consequential incineration of Shepard's body... pose a bit of an issue? If I instructed my employee to perform a task and he reported back claiming to have done so but then lit it on fire. My eyebrow is going to arch.
Even if we excuse this inconsistency, Wilson has now become the nemesis of one of the most ruthless organizations in the known galaxy, an organization that has deemed experimentation on human life a feasible and worthwhile objective to forward their ambition. Not being paid enough should be the least of his concerns. At the forefront would be his nigh inevitable, and likely, torment when Cerberus gets a hold of him.
Moreover, that does not consider his failure for the Shadow Broker. Now the two most ruthless syndicates in existence are gunning for him. Either Wilson was written to be is the dumbest genius in human history, or they did not think this through.
2. He states that Light sabers do not need to be explained becasue he can see them being used. He asked where the resurrection machine is and that if he could see it, shep's resurrection would have been easier to swallow. First of all, what does actually seeing the machine have to do with anything? Does the fact that someone points to a machine and says, "that did it" really make a difference? Besides that, you DO see the machine working on Shepard. So is it a matter of not seeing the whole machine? do you need to see a certain percentage of it for it to be believable? I must be missing something here...
His position is their existence is as commonplace as a handgun. It is not abrupt nor pertains to a specific event or character. It is similar to monsters in fantastical stories. Few games offer exposition of their origin unless it facilitates the plot in a meaningful capacity. We accept their presence because they are there for us to see, be it direct or through random encounters. The Lazarus Project is meant to influence the plot and is specific to Shepard. Therefore, it is a unique concept existing beyond common lore.
If I offered you a shotgun with the capability to discharge pulse radiation or rockets. Your immediate response would be, "where in the world did you get this?" From a narrative perspective, I may reply it was alien technology and this works because I have now explained the mysterious weapon. The Lazarus Project merely happens. This is a rare instance of subverting the "Show don't tell" trope by doing neither.
3. He argues that TIM bringing Shepard back becasue he was a symbol and a hero makes no sense becasue none of that mattered in ME2. The events of ME2 happened after Shepard was resurrected. The fact that Shep being a hero did not matter much in the event of ME2 would have had no effect on TIM's reasons to bring him back since they had not happened yet! When TIM made the decision to bring Shep back, he was a hero, and a symbol. He had no way of Knowing that would not matter in 2 years. You can not use events that occur after a decision to argue the motivation for making the decision.
The conundrum is more why would he bother. At this junction, Cerberus knew nothing about the Collectors and even less about the Reapers. What they were well aware of is Shepard was their active antagonist; someone who destroyed numerous facilities within their operation and may potentially have glaring physiological trauma because of them. Presume the Lazarus Project had been successful earlier than anticipated or Veetor was killed/had not recorded Collector data. TIM would have revived his company's worst opposition and have no efficient evidence to convince him/her to cooperate, begrudgingly or otherwise.
In addition, Shepard's heroics were being tentatively diminished prior to his/her death. The Council had already denied belief in the Reapers, citing the invasion perpetrated by a charismatic former Spectre and his Geth. Thus, while civilians may throw glowing acclamations upon Shepard, the relevant individuals such as the Alliance and Council were washing their hands of him/her.
4. He misunderstands my first argument. I never said that Shep resurrection was good becasue and only becasue it's science fiction. I think it is good for the effects it has on the gamer and the story. I was arguing against his presentation, where he claims that it is bad becasue this is not how one writes a story. My point was that there is no "Right" way to write a story in science fiction, not that Science fiction is a hand wave to let you do whatever you want.
There is a way people write a "Good" story, albeit it is subjective to some extent. Whilst I have my own grievances about killing the protagonist at the onset, it can be accomplished well, with proper exposition. Mass Effect 2 does not address anything and renders death and resurrection a cheap plot device they can insert one-liners about at random occurrences. The moment you leave the tutorial is where what should be a defining aspect of Shepard's character, is completely forgotten. It is not until Lair of the Shadow Broker someone asks Shepard how (s)he feels. It has no plot relevance, no importance and does not develop in the story or Shepard. Thus, it is a gimmick in lieu of an integral part of story.
5. In part 2 He asked why they don't try to find information about the collectors. I show many examples where they DID try to find info about the collectors. His counter argument was that even though they did, they were unsuccessful. That may be true, but that was not the argument. He said they didn't even bother to try, I showed that they did. The fact that those attempt were unsuccessful does not change that falseness of his argument. Instead of defending his argument, he side steps it with a new one.
We found minimalistic codex data about them being Prothens and they have a penchant for Shepard’s friends; maybe one wanted a date with Ashley. We did not discover anything that would provide an advantage or affirm our strategy would be efficient. Unsuccessful is an accurate defense because if we were unsuccessful in gathering intel, evidently we were unprepared. What if when we crossed through the Omega-4 Relay we discovered the Collectors have a fleet of five ships; better yet, we confront the Reaper form of Harbinger. The Normandy and our entire squad of badasses would be obliterated. That was his qualm. We had no forehand knowledge of what to expect and ran in blind. We were only successful through sheer dumb luck and because the plot says so.
6. He does that same thing with the the shadow broker prob. He claims that they should send probes through the omega 4 relay for information and that the Shadow broker successfully did it. I argue that he would not have told Cerberus this, so Cerb would still have thought it impossible, and that the probe came back as remains, which is not a successful attempt to gain information. He changes the argument to it proving that things can return form the omega 4 relay, which has nothing to do with anything. That fact that scrap metal can return does nothing to gain intel...
Did Cerberus even try? That is the fundamental question, and obviously, the answer is no, hence why smudboy called TIM a moron. They have already achieved the impossible by solving death. Why not attempt doubling up and see what happens? Their return as scrap metal is irrelevant. They still returned. Therefore, we deduce a superior built probe might favor better or if we can determine the cause was of hostile nature from an alien force that some type of distraction is warranted; a legion of probes perhaps. The point being is TIM never bothered to begin with and Shepard winged it.
7. He says that you could mine the omega 4 relay becasue the relay point to the galactic core and the IFF would mean the collectors don't drift far from the relay. All very true, but Cerberus had no knowledge of any of this until shepard uncovered it. They did not know that they were in the galactic core, or that they would not drift millions of kilometers, so they would still think mining the relay was pointless. You can't use information as an argument when the story hasn't reviled it yet.
They may have uncovered this tidbit had they bothered to probe it like the Shadow Broker, although it does not specify if he concluded the magnitude of the drift or if there was any. When we do have the IFF, why not send in probes then to gather intel in lieu of hoping for the best? It was not as though the Omega-4 Relay was going anywhere. We still haven’t a clue what the opposition will be.
8. He argues that Shep should monitor collector communications. I state that there is only one ship to jumps in and out... who would they be sending messages to. He answer is that shep has the prothean visions that allow him to understand communications. ok.... again... what communications?
When in the plot did we ever verify with irrefutable evidence they had one ship? They may use one ship but we do not know that for certain. Not even TIM knows much about the Collectors. They could have multiple ships and we have been fortunate enough only to run into one of them. Now if Shepard monitored communications and this was revealed in the narrative, we would be in business. All that is presented is EDI confirming a hunch Joker had it was the same space that killed Shepard. In addition, we could determine what colony they may hit, possibly trap them etcetera.
9. He claims that while all of the "daddy issues" would have had great affects on the squads minds, they should have been immune to them. What? Garrus is an amazing sniper, and that's fine. But who really thinks that a trained solider cannot be distracted by such powerful events and that this would not affect their jobs??? I don't care if you are a Delta Force operative, you are still vulnerable to emotional distractions. That's why many special forces members don't have families or the like.
If a trained soldier is incapable of placing the mission before his revenge, then he is a poorly trained soldier. Garrus demonstrates no hesitation in any other mission nor does he when a similar scenario derived in Mass Effect, wherein we could chase down Dr. Heart. If anything, he should be motivated to survive so he may have an opportunity to avenge his comrades. Miranda is the chief advisor and XO of the mission yet thoughts of her sister would affect her leadership capabilities?
This is what she ponders when a hail of bullets rain down her squad and a single hazardous step may kill her? If that is the case, TIM might wish to reconsider whom he hires. You are exaggerating emotional reactions. They are professionals, and would not be so easily hampered. Loyalty is meant to be a mechanic and is believable enough that I do not have any qualms with it personally, but this lining of reasoning is stretching it.
#624
Posté 28 mars 2011 - 07:49
Fiery Phoenix
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It's uploaded; the first two thirds, anyway.squee913 wrote...
but... I haven't finshed uploading it... are you a wizard?Fiery Phoenix wrote...
I enjoyed Part #3, Stephen. I look forward to Smud's response to it. Should be interesting, as I think you did make several good points.
![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 07:49 .
