1198 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

squee913 on your very last part:

Modifié par Mesina2, 28 mars 2011 - 08:16 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

pretty good. hit the nail on the head.

[Fiery Phoenix]

That was great indeed.

[AntiChri5]

That was excellent.

Thank's for that.

You know, i am beginning to think that the valid criticisms Smudboy makes are a simple matter of probability. Fire enough arrows, and you will hit a few bullseyes.

His petty arguments really bring down the valid criticisms he has and issues he points out.

[squee913]

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...

I'll tag a few and see how far I go...

Many of those people possess damning evidence of rather nefarious experiments Cerberus has employed. Vasir essentially insinuates the Council is quite aware in fact. To use your example, we know the CIA exists yet can only speculate the extent of their activities. Their intentions, motivations, everything is acutely ambiguous, whereas Cerberus practically screams, "we're right here, doing evil things!"

What is perplexing about Wilson's betrayal is he would be a "rock star," in Cerberus. He is one of two individuals in the entire galaxy that solved death. His importance would be instrumental and his reputation amongst his peers would be second only to Miranda. In future projects, Wilson would be the immediate consideration. The holes continue upon further investigation.

If he were a mole of the Shadow Broker, who sought Shepard's corpse to barter a deal with the Collectors, wouldn't the destruction of a space station and consequential incineration of Shepard's body... pose a bit of an issue? If I instructed my employee to perform a task and he reported back claiming to have done so but then lit it on fire. My eyebrow is going to arch.

Even if we excuse this inconsistency, Wilson has now become the nemesis of one of the most ruthless organizations in the known galaxy, an organization that has deemed experimentation on human life a feasible and worthwhile objective to forward their ambition. Not being paid enough should be the least of his concerns. At the forefront would be his nigh inevitable, and likely, torment when Cerberus gets a hold of him.

Moreover, that does not consider his failure for the Shadow Broker. Now the two most ruthless syndicates in existence are gunning for him. Either Wilson was written to be is the dumbest genius in human history, or they did not think this through.
[/quote]

The only proof he shows that anyone knows anything other than what Shepard uncovered, was Vasir, who more than likely got her info from the shadow broker, not the council. Either way, it is irrelevant. The fact that some people know about some of Cerberus' projects, does not mean that Cerberus would willing let Wilson expose the secret of resurrection. So showing us that a lot of people know Cerberus exists was pointless. Wilson would not have been famous even among Cerberus. Cerberus is divided into independent cells. Each cell has no knowledge of the other cells activities. So only people among his cell would even know what he did, and so what? Does this make him rich? Famous? So he did a great thing for Cerberus. TIM might give him a nice bonus, but nothing compared to what people would pay him to betray Cerberus. Wilson never planned to destroy Shepard's body. He set the mechs loose to kill everyone. Shepard was supposed to be asleep. The Mechs might have shot Shepard while he/she slept, but so what? SB only wanted his body. My guess the plan was to kill everyone and let SB agents claim the body afterward. Miranda screwed everything up by waking Shepard up.

[quote]
[quote]2. He states that Light sabers do not need to be explained becasue he can see them being used. He asked where the resurrection machine is and that if he could see it, shep's resurrection would have been easier to swallow. First of all, what does actually seeing the machine have to do with anything? Does the fact that someone points to a machine and says, "that did it" really make a difference? Besides that, you DO see the machine working on Shepard. So is it a matter of not seeing the whole machine? do you need to see a certain percentage of it for it to be believable? I must be missing something here...[/quote]

His position is their existence is as commonplace as a handgun. It is not abrupt nor pertains to a specific event or character. It is similar to monsters in fantastical stories. Few games offer exposition of their origin unless it facilitates the plot in a meaningful capacity. We accept their presence because they are there for us to see, be it direct or through random encounters. The Lazarus Project is meant to influence the plot and is specific to Shepard. Therefore, it is a unique concept existing beyond common lore.

If I offered you a shotgun with the capability to discharge pulse radiation or rockets. Your immediate response would be, "where in the world did you get this?" From a narrative perspective, I may reply it was alien technology and this works because I have now explained the mysterious weapon. The Lazarus Project merely happens. This is a rare instance of subverting the "Show don't tell" trope by doing neither.
[/quote]

Of course the machine is not common place. Cerberus just developed it. There is only one and you see it working on Shepard. Basicly you are just saying that Bioware is not allowed to introduce new concepts into a story, unless you constantly use it.


[quote]
[quote]3. He argues that TIM bringing Shepard back becasue he was a symbol and a hero makes no sense becasue none of that mattered in ME2. The events of ME2 happened after Shepard was resurrected. The fact that Shep being a hero did not matter much in the event of ME2 would have had no effect on TIM's reasons to bring him back since they had not happened yet! When TIM made the decision to bring Shep back, he was a hero, and a symbol. He had no way of Knowing that would not matter in 2 years. You can not use events that occur after a decision to argue the motivation for making the decision.[/quote]

The conundrum is more why would he bother. At this junction, Cerberus knew nothing about the Collectors and even less about the Reapers. What they were well aware of is Shepard was their active antagonist; someone who destroyed numerous facilities within their operation and may potentially have glaring physiological trauma because of them. Presume the Lazarus Project had been successful earlier than anticipated or Veetor was killed/had not recorded Collector data. TIM would have revived his company's worst opposition and have no efficient evidence to convince him/her to cooperate, begrudgingly or otherwise.

In addition, Shepard's heroics were being tentatively diminished prior to his/her death. The Council had already denied belief in the Reapers, citing the invasion perpetrated by a charismatic former Spectre and his Geth. Thus, while civilians may throw glowing acclamations upon Shepard, the relevant individuals such as the Alliance and Council were washing their hands of him/her.
[/quote]

Most of the things Shepard destroyed were already failures. Miranda talks about them and how they were not working out. TIM does not care about grudges, or revenge. When he saw what shepard was capable of, all he saw was potential. He feels that beating the reapers is more important than personal feelings, and he knew Shepard would feel the same way. TIM felt that Shep was important in the fight against the Reapers. You may not agree with him, but the idea that he would believe this is not implausible.

[quote]
[quote]4. He misunderstands my first argument. I never said that Shep resurrection was good becasue and only becasue it's science fiction. I think it is good for the effects it has on the gamer and the story. I was arguing against his presentation, where he claims that it is bad becasue this is not how one writes a story. My point was that there is no "Right" way to write a story in science fiction, not that Science fiction is a hand wave to let you do whatever you want.[/quote]

There is a way people write a "Good" story, albeit it is subjective to some extent. Whilst I have my own grievances about killing the protagonist at the onset, it can be accomplished well, with proper exposition. Mass Effect 2 does not address anything and renders death and resurrection a cheap plot device they can insert one-liners about at random occurrences. The moment you leave the tutorial is where what should be a defining aspect of Shepard's character, is completely forgotten. It is not until Lair of the Shadow Broker someone asks Shepard how (s)he feels. It has no plot relevance, no importance and does not develop in the story or Shepard. Thus, it is a gimmick in lieu of an integral part of story.
[/quote]

The problem is this is an opinion. Because I don't feel that way at all. Smudboy acts like it is 2+2 and bioware came up with 38 for an answer. This is what I am arguing against. You can not like it. That is fine, but you admit that it is your opinion. You don't act like the laws of nature have been torn asunder.

[quote]
[quote]5. In part 2 He asked why they don't try to find information about the collectors. I show many examples where they DID try to find info about the collectors. His counter argument was that even though they did, they were unsuccessful. That may be true, but that was not the argument. He said they didn't even bother to try, I showed that they did. The fact that those attempt were unsuccessful does not change that falseness of his argument. Instead of defending his argument, he side steps it with a new one.[/quote]

We found minimalistic codex data about them being Prothens and they have a penchant for Shepard’s friends; maybe one wanted a date with Ashley. We did not discover anything that would provide an advantage or affirm our strategy would be efficient. Unsuccessful is an accurate defense because if we were unsuccessful in gathering intel, evidently we were unprepared. What if when we crossed through the Omega-4 Relay we discovered the Collectors have a fleet of five ships; better yet, we confront the Reaper form of Harbinger. The Normandy and our entire squad of badasses would be obliterated. That was his qualm. We had no forehand knowledge of what to expect and ran in blind. We were only successful through sheer dumb luck and because the plot says so. 
[/quote]

That may have been what he was thinking, but it most certainly was not what he was saying. The idea that some feel that we should have been given more information about the collectors is fine. I don't agree with it, but I see why they say it. I never argued against he idea that more could have been done to prepare. I refuted the individual arguments Smud stated. One thing you guys need to understand. If he had argued his views half as well as you guys do, I never would have made these videos. I may not agree with all of you, but your comments make me think and I see why you make them. It is not that his overall ideas were so horrible, it is that argument he uses to support them were so ridiculous. If he felt that they should have given the player more information, he should have just said so. Instead he states they did not even try to get information. I show they did. He gives several examples of ways they could get info. I show these ways have in game reasons for them not being attempted or discussed. etc etc. the argument was that They did not try. I showed they did. The fact that they were not successful is a different argument all together.

[quote]
[quote]6. He does that same thing with the the shadow broker prob. He claims that they should send probes through the omega 4 relay for information and that the Shadow broker successfully did it. I argue that he would not have told Cerberus this, so Cerb would still have thought it impossible, and that the probe came back as remains, which is not a successful attempt to gain information. He changes the argument to it proving that things can return form the omega 4 relay, which has nothing to do with anything. That fact that scrap metal can return does nothing to gain intel...[/quote]

Did Cerberus even try? That is the fundamental question, and obviously, the answer is no, hence why smudboy called TIM a moron. They have already achieved the impossible by solving death. Why not attempt doubling up and see what happens? Their return as scrap metal is irrelevant. They still returned. Therefore, we deduce a superior built probe might favor better or if we can determine the cause was of hostile nature from an alien force that some type of distraction is warranted; a legion of probes perhaps. The point being is TIM never bothered to begin with and Shepard winged it.
[/quote]

Where is this evidence that Cerberus did not try? It was stated that nothing goes though and returns. this would suggest Cerberus has tried sending things through before. Either way, he again side stepped the argument. The argument was that probes were a viable way to get information. This is only true if the SB probes came back intact and were able to give us information. When I showed that his was not the case, the argument suddenly changed to, "The fact that the remains of the prob came back shows an inconsistency since the plot stated nothing ever came back. Even if true, what does this have to do with the original argument?

[quote]
[quote]7. He says that you could mine the omega 4 relay becasue the relay point to the galactic core and the IFF would mean the collectors don't drift far from the relay. All very true, but Cerberus had no knowledge of any of this until shepard uncovered it. They did not know that they were in the galactic core, or that they would not drift millions of kilometers, so they would still think mining the relay was pointless. You can't use information as an argument when the story hasn't reviled it yet.[/quote]

They may have uncovered this tidbit had they bothered to probe it like the Shadow Broker, although it does not specify if he concluded the magnitude of the drift or if there was any. When we do have the IFF, why not send in probes then to gather intel in lieu of hoping for the best? It was not as though the Omega-4 Relay was going anywhere. We still haven’t a clue what the opposition will be. 
[/quote]
No they would not have known tha information if they sent probes. Even if they got remains back, remains would have given them no clue as to where the probe had gone, only that something had destroyed it once it got there, or that it had somehow been destroyed on the way back. How in the world would remains tell you tha the relay goes to the galactic core? As far as probing the relay once we had the IFF; again tha is a completely different argument. the argument was tha they would have no reason to mine the relay because all the info they have states that the drift would make it impossible. While Smud is right, that if they had mined, it might have worked ( I stress might, because the collectors did not need the IFF to travel too the terminus system and might have drifted normally that direction) there is no way Cerberus could have known this until 2/3rds of the way though the game.

[quote]
[quote]8. He argues that Shep should monitor collector communications. I state that there is only one ship to jumps in and out... who would they be sending messages to. He answer is that shep has the prothean visions that allow him to understand communications. ok.... again... what communications?[/quote]

When in the plot did we ever verify with irrefutable evidence they had one ship? They may use one ship but we do not know that for certain. Not even TIM knows much about the Collectors. They could have multiple ships and we have been fortunate enough only to run into one of them. Now if Shepard monitored communications and this was revealed in the narrative, we would be in business. All that is presented is EDI confirming a hunch Joker had it was the same space that killed Shepard. In addition, we could determine what colony they may hit, possibly trap them etcetera.
[/quote] 

The fact remains that here were no communications to monitor. What you are suggesting is that he game spend time, resources, and dialog to engage in an activity that gives you nothing. 

[quote]
[quote]9. He claims that while all of the "daddy issues" would have had great affects on the squads minds, they should have been immune to them. What? Garrus is an amazing sniper, and that's fine. But who really thinks that a trained solider cannot be distracted by such powerful events and that this would not affect their jobs??? I don't care if you are a Delta Force operative, you are still vulnerable to emotional distractions. That's why many special forces members don't have families or the like.[/quote]

If a trained soldier is incapable of placing the mission before his revenge, then he is a poorly trained soldier. Garrus demonstrates no hesitation in any other mission nor does he when a similar scenario derived in Mass Effect, wherein we could chase down Dr. Heart. If anything, he should be motivated to survive so he may have an opportunity to avenge his comrades. Miranda is the chief advisor and XO of the mission yet thoughts of her sister would affect her leadership capabilities? 

This is what she ponders when a hail of bullets rain down her squad and a single hazardous step may kill her? If that is the case, TIM might wish to reconsider whom he hires. You are exaggerating emotional reactions. They are professionals, and would not be so easily hampered. Loyalty is meant to be a mechanic and is believable enough that I do not have any qualms with it personally, but this lining of reasoning is stretching it.
[/quote]

Family ties are almost always stronger than military duty. This is why the army does it's best to get letters back and forth. It has been proven again and again that Soldiers can get distracted by personal issues, no matter how well trained. It is not just a matter of thinking straight when someone is actually shooting at you. Anyone who has been in the army knows that that is a very small part of your job. Most of your job is training, preparation, and awareness. All of these can be severely hindered by serious personal problems. It is not just a matter of keeping them focused during the few minutes  of actual combat, but keeping their head in the game as a whole. Would Miranda think about her sister while someone is shooting at her? Maybe not. But she certainly would every other second of her day. In this state she cannot be at her best. Which is the point, getting them to be their best.

wow... now tha is a wal of text... 

Modifié par squee913, 28 mars 2011 - 11:50 .

[Whatever42]

iakus wrote...
I am personally willing to let the Wilson matter drop at this point.  LOTSB showed why he betrayed Cerberus.  I am willing to let it lie that he simply "got a better offer"  Heck maybe he was offered the fame and fortune Cerberus was going to deny him?

Not to mention Wilson was head medical TECH. There is nothing in there that says Wilson developed the technology, only that he is the one responsible for its use. In the interaction during the ressurection, I never got the impression that Wilson was this super genious.

iakus wrote...
I think his point was that we see lightsabers being used.  We know what they can and can't do.  We learn that they are "the weapon of the Jedi" and are genrally an accepted facet of the Star Wars universe.  Even though they had not been used much in the last generation.  The Cure for Death, on the other hand, is nothing more than a plot device to explain why Shep's walking around when we saw him spaced, frozen, and smacked into a planet.  It's there, then gone.  No explanations.  No rationale for how it fits into the greter scheme of things.  It ressurected Shepard, and it's purpose was fufilled, it sinks back into the toy chest of the writers ideas.

It was definitely a Search for Spock moment. I do hope we'll hear more about it later but its possible it was just a plot device.

iakus wrote...
Colonies had been disappearing for two years.  "While you've been sleeping, entire colonies have been disappearing.  Human colonies".  Pretty much straight out of the gate, TIM sends Shepard off to deal with the colonies.  Throughout the game, it's always "build the team"  "Omega IV Relay"  Any talk about the coming Reaper war or leading the galaxy has come from players, not the game.  In ME 2, this "symbol" was mainly "TIM's errand boy"

Unless that's the symbol TIM is trying to convey?

TIM says he is sure the Reapers are behind it. Its a Reaper attack, through the Collectors. You don't think Shepard's job is to thwart Reaper attacks and find out what they're up to? Besides, the Collectors went right for Shepard at the beginning of the game. They wanted his body very badly. TIM clearly had a theory that the Collectors would come after Shepard. He says that straight-up when he talks about why he lured the VS to Horizon.

In fact, none of the events in the game would have been possible without the Collectors coming after the VS and Shepard. That means no intel. That means not learning about the IFF from scanning the Collector Ship during the ambush.

iakus wrote...
Well, you did say he was misunderstanding your point.  That could simply be crossed signals.

But while there may not be a "right" or "wrong" way to write a story, there are aspects that are difficult to do well.  TIme travel is one example.  Ressurection is another.  In my opinion, and it seems Smudboys and many others, Bioware did tell this ressurection story well.  It's abrupt, smacking of deus ex machina, and carries absolutely no wieght for the rest of the story.  Honestly, it would have been simpler and easier to swallow if they simply told a tale of "Shepard nearly died, but was rescued by Cerberus, who spent the next two years treating his injuries.  And oh, yeah, his injuries were so severe he required extensive cybernetic augmentation as well"

Deus ex machina is usually used in terms to a convenient plot device that leads to the good guy winning at the end of the game - like the Protheans just happening to develop a virus that takes back control of the Citadel or Sovereign fainting. This resurrection happens at the very beginning of the game.

Someone winning the lottery at the end of the story to make all their problems go away is deus ex machina. Someone winning the lottery at the beginning of the story to be introduced to all their problems is just a plot device.

iakus wrote...
I think his point was the attempts to gain intel on them should have been a more central part of the game.  Rather than the loyalty missions.  After all, the main story is "preparing" for the mission.  While the personal missions may be part of getting the team mentally prepared, you see very liitle in the way of actually gearing up for the mission.  Shep gets the team upgrades mainly on mall runs or tripping over stuff on his recruitment/loyalty missions.  He seems to primairlly trust TIM for his information sources, even after TIM has proven himself to be manipulative and unreliable.

You may argue against the specifics about what Smudboy thinks should have been done in the game.  But I do agree that the game did an abysmal job at showing Shepard preparing for a dangerous  mission.  Honestly, mining for minerals to upgrade the Normandy was the most plot-centric activity you could do!  How sad is that?

Once the Reaper IFF was in Shepards' hands, there was no reason not to reverse-engineer it and stap duplicates onto probes.  But...we all know what came next.

Again, Shepard was the lure.  TIM has been trying for 2 years to get intel and failed. Only after the Collectors start coming after Shepard did TIM learn anything. Having Shepard fly around trying to get information would have maybe been an interesting story but what was TIM doing in the 2 years since then?

Unlike ME1, where Shepard had a truly urgent mission to track down Saren but instead ran around killing rogue AIs and finding missing ships, in this case, Shepard's job was lure and to build his team for when they had a way through the relay. I agree that they should have added more urgency and tension to the sotry but its realistic and what else was Shepard going to do with that time except to get ready. In the dirty dozen, they don't have the team running around trying to get intel. They have them getting ready. It makes sense.

As far as probes - using the IFF might have tipped off theCollectors. They might have changed the mechanism or mined their relay. The safe thing to do might have been to use probes but that carried risk and when was TIM ever, ever, ever safe?

iakus wrote...
As to Smudboy's pont.  the fact that remains were recovered at all proves that somehow the Shadow Broker managed to retrieve something from the other end of the relay.  Remains, yes, but that's more than anyone else had managed.  Who's to say how far he was from creating a probe that could be retrieved with useful information?

As the Mythbusters say: "Failure is always an option"  Even if an experiment goes wrong, as long as you learned something from it, it's a success.  the Shadow Broker was succeeding.

TIM had different methods besides trial-and-error. This is somehow a plot hole? Sure, if you send enough probes in, something may by luck survive. Not exactly what I think TIM was going for.

iakus wrote...
This I think was his opinion that it should have been an option, rather than it was an option.  He holds the opinion (one that I share) that not enough was made of the Cipher.  If somehow, the Collectors had retained enough of their Prothean minds to communicate with each other, that could have been an information source for Shepard.  One that would actually link back to the first game.  Given that Collectors are little more than specialized husks in ME 2, this idea is unfeasible.  But I kinda wish something like this had been implemented.

This is simply a discussion that the story could have been made more interesting. I agree with you that they needed to add more tension and more... coolness.

iakus wrote...
These are hit and miss.  Some characters I think have good reason to be worried or distracted (Tali, Thane, Miranda) but others, either due to the nature of their issue or their personality type, should have been able to handle the mission without being distracted (Grunt, Jacob, Zaeed, and possibly Legion).  This goes more towards opinions on the nature of the missions and perhaps how overly simplistic the loyalty system was,

I think Bioware just wanted you to learn more about your characters through hands-on experience rather than have them just tell you all about themselves. This is good.

I think Bioware wanted these secondary missions to link to the main story somehow, something that was not done in ME1. This is good.

I think Bioware wanted to motivate you to complete them. This is good.

Yes, I would have preferred a loyalty system rather than a darkside/lightside sytem but that darkside/lightside system is what they had to use. That's a game design issue, not a writing issue. I'm sure they discussed it - DAO was a pretty popular game - but decided that they changed the game enough.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 28 mars 2011 - 11:56 .

[J. Finley]

Awesome videos Squee! I really enjoyed watching them, and couldn't agree more. Thank you.

[armass]

Gotta say tough, no matter how arrogant Smudboy seems in his videos, he does make some fair points. Some are pretty obvious too and hard to dismiss.

Modifié par armass, 28 mars 2011 - 12:46 .

[FlyinElk212]

I was hard on you in your first video, but your final portion of vid 2 and final video won me over. Well done, Squee.

One thing Smud doesn't account for is marketing and game developing metaknowledge. The story's realism, at times, needs to take a backseat to what we as gamers want to see, and what the developers have time to develop. Realism can only go so far before it becomes boring and tedious, and your account about this point in the final vid sums it up really nicely.

While I do agree with your argument about Shepard as a character, I still believe that scenes that delve deeper into his character would be beneficial (scenes ala the Liara LotSB scene in the Normandy). However, they'd be beneficial for the reasons you've detailed, which is that Shepard's motivations are our motivations; thus our motivations are further explored. In general, the game needs to do this more often: attempt to frame Shepard/us as a character, as opposed to simply framing Shepard's/our decisions & motivations.

That said, I felt you really poured your heart out in the final vid (especially the closing), and it was really nice and refreshing to see a positive Mass Effect 2 argument that wasn't all "OMFG I LOVEZOR MASS EFFECT! SPACE BOOBS!"

Has Smuddy made a response yet? I'm not sure if he will, but if he does/did, I'd love a link to it.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 28 mars 2011 - 02:58 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Just finished watching your examination Squee913, I don't agree with you on all points, but I liked your "Last comment" section where you address your problem with Smudboy nitpicking too much and what Mass effect is really all about.

A few comments though...

You mention how Shepard is not a character but rather YOU! And that is why Shepard does not do any soul searching etc. And while it is true that Shepard cannot grow as a character due to the nature of the game, I will argue that is no execuse to not have Shepard expressing ANY emotions at all over his own death. Remeber the locker scene from ME1 or the cabin re-union scene from LOTSB? I think those show that you can easily have a controllable main character that is not a complete blank slate (the latter even gives you multiple options).
My point is. Just because Shepard can be controlled and is not 100% defined, does not mean Bioware can just shrug the entire thing off and not have some scene where Shepard ponders over it.

I think I said it before in this topic but I say it again. I would not really care about the technical details of Shepard's resurection if something satisfying was made out of it from a story-perspective, but we got nothing at all.

and it was really nice and refreshing to see a positive Mass Effect 2
argument that wasn't all "OMFG I LOVEZOR MASS EFFECT! SPACE BOOBS!"

Well said good sir! [tips hat off]

Modifié par Lizardviking, 28 mars 2011 - 03:16 .

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Mesina2 wrote...

squee913 on your very last part:

Yes. On that last part squee really summed what Mass Effect 2, not only its plot but game design were about.

Edit: I copied what I wrote in the comments:

ME2 was to show more and set the universe for ME3, and you can see in  its game design all around it if you look carefully. The game was supposed to not only make you grow attached to the characters, but all life around it to make you want to protect them as Shepard when the reapers come! Even the geth! >

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 28 mars 2011 - 04:13 .

[Whatever42]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

squee913 on your very last part:

Yes. On that last part squee really summed what Mass Effect 2, not only its plot but game design were about.

Agreed! It was an excellent summation.

[Chewin]

Words can't describe how good your last part was. Bravo

Modifié par Chewin3, 28 mars 2011 - 04:26 .

[Almostfaceman]

Mesina2 wrote...

squee913 on your very last part:

Bravo! Bravo!

Wait... it's totally unrealistic that Conrad could break out in a rap like that... it's not his voice.  Where are the instruments?  PLOT HOLE!

A+ on the effort, and the Lebowski quote was perfect.

And, for one who has been arguing in these forums of late about squaddies coming back in ME3 - you put it very well how ME is one big story and that part of the reason of ME2 (and ME1 to some extent) was to make your pre-ME3 squad the Han Solo/Princess Leia/Luke Skywalker/Chewbacca you bring to the Last Act.

Yes, I did laugh at the Destroy/Don't Destroy the Collector base part.  I laughed a lot.

Anyway again I enjoyed your video repose to Smudboy and I agree with most of your points.  Well done!

[ADLegend21]

Mesina2 wrote...

squee913 on your very last part:

This
the ending was hilarious! Great Job!

[Gabey5]

squee hit the nail on the head

[Sable Phoenix]

Mesina2 wrote...

squee913 on your very last part:

I'm guessing that anyone who uses this .gif has never seen Citizen Kane, since Welles' applause in this scene is excessive precisely to convey his character's mocking and derision of what he's just seen.

Probably not the same meaning the posters are wishing to convey, even if I might find it appropriate given the generally specious nature of the counterpoints.  Smudboy doesn't get it all right, but he gets more right than not.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 07:45 .

[CroGamer002]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

squee913 on your very last part:

I'm guessing that anyone who uses this .gif has never seen Citizen Kane, since Welles' applause in this scene is excessive precisely to convey his character's mocking and derision of what he's just seen.

Probably not the same meaning the posters are wishing to convey.

lol for real?

Though I should watch that movie some day.
I heard it is great.

[Phaedon]

One of the best movies ever made. yes.

[Iakus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

TIM says he is sure the Reapers are behind it. Its a Reaper attack, through the Collectors. You don't think Shepard's job is to thwart Reaper attacks and find out what they're up to? Besides, the Collectors went right for Shepard at the beginning of the game. They wanted his body very badly. TIM clearly had a theory that the Collectors would come after Shepard. He says that straight-up when he talks about why he lured the VS to Horizon.

In fact, none of the events in the game would have been possible without the Collectors coming after the VS and Shepard. That means no intel. That means not learning about the IFF from scanning the Collector Ship during the ambush.

But what does any of it have to do with Shepard being a symbol?  What does he represent?  What makes him unique, not just in ability or experience, that made it worth breaking the piggy bank developing the Cure for Death? 

The Council and Alliance no longer trust him.  The Shadow Broker's after him.  The mercs in the Terminus don't seem too interested in talking.  Terminus governments don't care who he is.

Maybe he's a symbol to the Reapers then.  After all, the Reapers are interested in him specifically.  Okay, why?  They're interested in his companions, okay why the VS?  Why weren't there Collectors on Haestrom?  Or Tuchanka?  Or Illium?  Omega is off the hook for this one, but the point remains.  What makes Shepard and the VS so special?  Being human?  Shepard is not exactly unique in that. 

Deus ex machina is usually used in terms to a convenient plot device that leads to the good guy winning at the end of the game - like the Protheans just happening to develop a virus that takes back control of the Citadel or Sovereign fainting. This resurrection happens at the very beginning of the game.

Someone winning the lottery at the end of the story to make all their problems go away is deus ex machina. Someone winning the lottery at the beginning of the story to be introduced to all their problems is just a plot device.

Traditionally, yes,  But I'm using a more general term for it, from Merriam-Webster:

"A person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble  difficulty"

Death strikes me as the ultimate in "insoluble difficulty" and the Lazarus Project strikes me as sudden, unexpected, and contrived.

Again, Shepard was the lure.  TIM has been trying for 2 years to get intel and failed. Only after the Collectors start coming after Shepard did TIM learn anything. Having Shepard fly around trying to get information would have maybe been an interesting story but what was TIM doing in the 2 years since then?

Unlike ME1, where Shepard had a truly urgent mission to track down Saren but instead ran around killing rogue AIs and finding missing ships, in this case, Shepard's job was lure and to build his team for when they had a way through the relay. I agree that they should have added more urgency and tension to the sotry but its realistic and what else was Shepard going to do with that time except to get ready. In the dirty dozen, they don't have the team running around trying to get intel. They have them getting ready. It makes sense.

TIM gaining intel:  We have no idea what he's ben doing for two years.  We aren't privy to that information.  I believe Smudboy even points out, we aren't told why doing something won't work.  Miranda never says anything like "we tried X.  The Collectors caught onto it right away.  Y was ineffective too"  We have to take it on faith that TIM, and only TIM, knows what he's doing in gathering intel.

"What else was Shep going to do with his time?" indeed.  Everything felt like side missions.  If we couldn't gather intel, couldn't we at least have "Get bigger guns" missions?  "Trick out the Normandy" quests?  Stuff like that?  Make it feel like we're getting ready for a really dangerous mission where we do't know what exactly we'll be up against?

Shep as lure:  Which again comes back to why bring Shepard back at all?  His corpse would make just as good a lure, and be much easier to control wouldn't it?  Because Shepard as a "symbol" did little as far as recruitment went.

As far as probes - using the IFF might have tipped off theCollectors. They might have changed the mechanism or mined their relay. The safe thing to do might have been to use probes but that carried risk and when was TIM ever, ever, ever safe?

Clearly that didn't enter into anyone's mind because the IFF did tip off the Collectors   They put all their very expensive eggs into one basket, strapped an irreplacable piece of Reaper tech onto it and decided to see what happens.

TIM had different methods besides trial-and-error. This is somehow a plot hole? Sure, if you send enough probes in, something may by luck survive. Not exactly what I think TIM was going for.

What was TIM going for, then?  Body count?   They were both after intel. The Shadow Broker was clearly ahead of the game here, since he was able to retrieve at least parts of his probes.  This means he had something good enough to double as an IFF.  All that really remained was to build a probe that could survive an Occulus attack long enough to get some useful data and survive a trip back. 

I think Bioware just wanted you to learn more about your characters through hands-on experience rather than have them just tell you all about themselves. This is good.

I think Bioware wanted these secondary missions to link to the main story somehow, something that was not done in ME1. This is good.

I think Bioware wanted to motivate you to complete them. This is good.

Yes, I would have preferred a loyalty system rather than a darkside/lightside sytem but that darkside/lightside system is what they had to use. That's a game design issue, not a writing issue. I'm sure they discussed it - DAO was a pretty popular game - but decided that they changed the game enough.

DAO1 and DA2 did a better job in establishing personal missions.  DA2 did an especially good job in integrating them into the story itself.  ME 2 was overly simplistic with a binary plot armor/no armor system for the Suicide Mission.  But yes, that''s more a design issue than a writing issue, as the missions themselves were for the most part pretty good.

Modifié par iakus, 28 mars 2011 - 08:28 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

I can't wait to hear smudboy's reaction to arrival. Deals with reaper stuff, alliance stuff, harbinger/general stuff, shepard stuff. If these dlc's were available during the first playthrough of the main game....i can't imagine how different the game will feel for people who play arrival and shadow broker thier first time through. Basically the entire second act will be about liara because the average player will probably give her shadow broker intel after recruiting samara and thane. I really want to see the variants on playing Arrival. My gut feeling tells me there will be two major shifts, one for pre suicide mission (collector general) and one for post (harbinger, different dialogue) as well as different countdowns that reflect which major plot mission (horizon, collector ship, reaper iff, crew abduction, suicide mission) you played last.


I kinda wish you were able to embark on a mission for the abduction. Overlord would fit in that spot really well because it's a mission where you can rotate your entire squad (everyone leaves at once) and its a mission where you are away from the normandy.

[Whatever42]

iakus wrote...

But what does any of it have to do with Shepard being a symbol?  What does he represent?  What makes him unique, not just in ability or experience, that made it worth breaking the piggy bank developing the Cure for Death? 

The Council and Alliance no longer trust him.  The Shadow Broker's after him.  The mercs in the Terminus don't seem too interested in talking.  Terminus governments don't care who he is.

Maybe he's a symbol to the Reapers then.  After all, the Reapers are interested in him specifically.  Okay, why?  They're interested in his companions, okay why the VS?  Why weren't there Collectors on Haestrom?  Or Tuchanka?  Or Illium?  Omega is off the hook for this one, but the point remains.  What makes Shepard and the VS so special?  Being human?  Shepard is not exactly unique in that. 

They spent 4 billion credits on Shepard. That's nothing to Cerberus. I know you know the price tag of the SR-2.

And the Council gives him back his spectre status and doesn't interfere. And he gets the cooperation of Aria. And Tali cooperates with him on Freedom's Progress instead of a fight breaking out. And half the crew wouldn't join without Shepard. And C-Sec bends over backwards for him for his missions on the Citadel. But you're right, thats minor stuff that might not be worth 4 billion credits.

But the game isn't over. TIM didn't bring back Shep to stop the Collectors but to stop the Reapers. He knows that will take cooperation - and he knows that while Shepard can unite people, Cerberus cannot. There is more to this series than ME2.

Besides, the symbol thing is only a small part of it. TIM did relentlessly use Shepard as a lure. But why are the Collectors and Reapers interested in Shep and the VS?

The Collectors were only interested in the VS because they could use the VS to get to Shepard - TIM said as much. Why Shepard? I have my theories - why are the Reapers doing any of this? In my opinion its all linked together. I can write you a page on it, if you want, but I think why the Reapers want Shepard is a major plot point. It has to do with why the Reapers reap, why they want humanity, and why they want Shepard personally. But my theory is just a theory. I'm convinced this is a reveal in ME3.

iakus wrote...

Traditionally, yes,  But I'm using a more general term for it, from Merriam-Webster:

"A person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble  difficulty"

Death strikes me as the ultimate in "insoluble difficulty" and the Lazarus Project strikes me as sudden, unexpected, and contrived.

Yes, but the death and ressurection of Shepard doesn't provide a solution to the problem of the story. Its a plot device to reset Shepard with the renegade faction. Winning the lottery at the beginning of the story may provide a solution to money problems but the money problems aren't THE problem of the story. Shepard was only killed to be ressurected - its not THE problem or even a real story problem

iakus wrote...

TIM gaining intel:  We have no idea what he's ben doing for two years.  We aren't privy to that information.  I believe Smudboy even points out, we aren't told why doing something won't work.  Miranda never says anything like "we tried X.  The Collectors caught onto it right away.  Y was ineffective too"  We have to take it on faith that TIM, and only TIM, knows what he's doing in gathering intel.

"What else was Shep going to do with his time?" indeed.  Everything felt like side missions.  If we couldn't gather intel, couldn't we at least have "Get bigger guns" missions?  "Trick out the Normandy" quests?  Stuff like that?  Make it feel like we're getting ready for a really dangerous mission where we do't know what exactly we'll be up against?

Shep as lure:  Which again comes back to why bring Shepard back at all?  His corpse would make just as good a lure, and be much easier to control wouldn't it?  Because Shepard as a "symbol" did little as far as recruitment went.

So we need to be given a rundown of everything TIM has failed at? You really think that belongs in the story? Sure, I believe you and I might be interested but do you think 99% of players would care? And do you really think that not explaining what TIM has done the last two years is a plot hole? He obviously failed at it.

And shipping around Shepards corpse as a lure is a little obvious. And for a mere 4 billion credits, you can get a real live Shepard running around helping with stuff.

Your other points are about the effectiveness of the main story, which I agree was weak. Which practically everyone agress was weak. So I surrender all points on that.

iakus wrote...

Clearly that didn't enter into anyone's mind because the IFF did tip off the Collectors   They put all their very expensive eggs into one basket, strapped an irreplacable piece of Reaper tech onto it and decided to see what happens.

What was TIM going for, then?  Body count?   They were both after intel. The Shadow Broker was clearly ahead of the game here, since he was able to retrieve at least parts of his probes.  This means he had something good enough to double as an IFF.  All that really remained was to build a probe that could survive an Occulus attack long enough to get some useful data and survive a trip back. 

Just because you wouldn't do what TIM did, we need to ask ourselves is what TIM did in character. The guy who let loose Rachni. And experimented with creepers. And is responsible for Overlord. This guy is reckless to the point of insanity.

Giving the legendar Shepard a top of the line stealth frigate with a badass crew to go on a stealth mission through the relay to retrieve data sounds right up his line. And TIM gave them everything he could. It's not like he strapped Shep to a prob and fired him through.

The SB on the other hand is highly risk adverse. He's ready to fully cooperate with the Reapers and go hide. He's not going to be nearly as aggressive as investigating the Reapers.

And he's going to make a probe to surviv an Occulus attack? Seriously? That would be some baddass probe. And of course, after you kill the Occulus and all the drones, then the Collectors aren't going to notice? And that assumes you can get probes there reliably. How many probes do you need to fire through the relay before you get luck and one arrives close in enough? When firing through these battleship probes, it could get very very expensive. And the bad guys are eventually going to notice!

Again, its not what you or I would do. It's can we imagine this character doing that?

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 28 mars 2011 - 09:16 .

[Almostfaceman]

iakus wrote...

But what does any of it have to do with Shepard being a symbol?  What does he represent?  What makes him unique, not just in ability or experience, that made it worth breaking the piggy bank developing the Cure for Death? 

The Council and Alliance no longer trust him.  The Shadow Broker's after him.  The mercs in the Terminus don't seem too interested in talking.  Terminus governments don't care who he is.

Maybe he's a symbol to the Reapers then.  After all, the Reapers are interested in him specifically.  Okay, why?  They're interested in his companions, okay why the VS?  Why weren't there Collectors on Haestrom?  Or Tuchanka?  Or Illium?  Omega is off the hook for this one, but the point remains.  What makes Shepard and the VS so special?  Being human?  Shepard is not exactly unique in that. 

Shepard is a symbol that his enemies tried to tarnish while he was Dead.

Now Shep is Alive again.  The politicians (the Council) hate him.  The common man (Bailey, the citadel shopkeepers, the cook on the SR-2, the engineers of the SR-2, the asari who can't get through customs on the Citadel, and on an on) loves Shepard.  He's a hero, just like Conrad Verner says.  

Imagine Joan of Arc come back to life.  Or Hitler, or any of the other historical figures that squee mentions.  That's the impact only Shepard can have.

[TMA LIVE]

Liked you're videos. Just some random points I've noticed.

Part 3

1) Even if they did have a shuttle, they're apparently coming out of Zaeed's room... which is just a garbage hatch... which I'm not sure how anything like Humans or Collectors could come out of it. Especially this:



2) You're reasons for the doctor not being in there doesn't really nail things down. It's more of empty maybes. Same with not contacting a closer crew member. I'd say EDI did it because he's probably the only one who could do it who hasn't been taken. Which is why all the crew members keep saying "You're are only shot, Joker!" "We'll protect you!". And Chakwas didn't get warned because she's just another expendable crew member compared to Joker, aka her boyfriend and pilot. At least with something like that, there's stuff in the game to reference the idea.

3) I do agree that "It's up to you to change Shepard. And if you didn't change as a character, then Shepard never changed." But I think you're missing what people mean. In ME1, Shepard had the locker scene were he complained about how he felt betrayed, and expressed his frustration to his LI. Or he'd express his opinions to the crew. Or had something pop up about his backstory, and talk about it. There's barely any of that in ME2. Compare that to DA2, where Hawke is going through some personal ****, and expresses his feelings and thoughts all the time. Now you might say "Well, ME2 is more about the crew then Shepard", but that doesn't mean Shepard shouldn't have more options to express himself. Like don't tell me that you wouldn't want more scenes like the cabin scene with Liara, where Shepard can express his hopefulness and frustrations. Because I'm sure you'd want it.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 mars 2011 - 10:31 .

[Iakus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

But the game isn't over. TIM didn't bring back Shep to stop the Collectors but to stop the Reapers. He knows that will take cooperation - and he knows that while Shepard can unite people, Cerberus cannot. There is more to this series than ME2.

Indeed there is. But this is the game he was ressurected in.   What made Shepard "unique" or "special" in this game?  Even in Empire Strikes Back, that sequel ME 2 is always being compared to, Luke learned what it was that made him "special". 

Besides, who is to say there won't be a second catastrophic reset button for ME 3, to be an "entry point" for latecomers?

The Collectors were only interested in the VS because they could use the VS to get to Shepard - TIM said as much. Why Shepard? I have my theories - why are the Reapers doing any of this? In my opinion its all linked together. I can write you a page on it, if you want, but I think why the Reapers want Shepard is a major plot point. It has to do with why the Reapers reap, why they want humanity, and why they want Shepard personally. But my theory is just a theory. I'm convinced this is a reveal in ME3.

If they want the VS to get to Shepard, then why aren't they after Tali?  Wrex?  Garrus?  Liara? 

The fact that the Collectors have some bizzare interest in Shep would have made a great jumping off point for gathering intel, imo.  Instead it's just left hanging there, more potential unfufilled.

Yes, but the death and ressurection of Shepard doesn't provide a solution to the problem of the story. Its a plot device to reset Shepard with the renegade faction. Winning the lottery at the beginning of the story may provide a solution to money problems but the money problems aren't THE problem of the story. Shepard was only killed to be ressurected - its not THE problem or even a real story problem

With Shepard dead, the story cannot go forward.  Or perhaps it can, but with a bearded marine named Commander Hawke taking over    At any rate, that is a definite problem to overcome.  The Lazarus Project provides an extremely convenient (or "contrived") solution to that problem.  Given that both the problem and solution are hardly referenced after the fact may show that it isn't the sole problem faced, but it was a problem
which threatned to derail the entirety of the stroy.

So we need to be given a rundown of everything TIM has failed at? You really think that belongs in the story? Sure, I believe you and I might be interested but do you think 99% of players would care? And do you really think that not explaining what TIM has done the last two years is a plot hole? He obviously failed at it.

Everything?  No.  But a couple of lines about things that were tried and failed would give us a reference point as to what exactly Cerberus has been doing for the last two years besides waiting for Shepard to wake up.  Lack of information only tells us TIM doesn't have information.  Not that he actually tried anything.

And shipping around Shepards corpse as a lure is a little obvious. And for a mere 4 billion credits, you can get a real live Shepard running around helping with stuff.

"Mere"?  All indications are that 4 billion is a substantial amount of money.  Otherwise why should Shep fear death ever again?

Just because you wouldn't do what TIM did, we need to ask ourselves is what TIM did in character. The guy who let loose Rachni. And experimented with creepers. And is responsible for Overlord. This guy is reckless to the point of insanity.

Well, I can't argue with that.

Giving the legendar Shepard a top of the line stealth frigate with a badass crew to go on a stealth mission through the relay to retrieve data sounds right up his line. And TIM gave them everything he could. It's not like he strapped Shep to a prob and fired him through.

Not literally.  But the next closest thing to it.  He gave Shep a stealth frigate who's stealth doesn't work on Collector scanners (but it has leather seats!), zero information on what the mission he's recruiting people for will eventually entail, and oh yeah, authorized strapping 37 millin year old untested Reaper tech to the brand spanking new Normandy to see what happens.

And he's going to make a probe to surviv an Occulus attack? Seriously? That would be some baddass probe. And of course, after you kill the Occulus and all the drones, then the Collectors aren't going to notice? And that assumes you can get probes there reliably. How many probes do you need to fire through the relay before you get luck and one arrives close in enough? When firing through these battleship probes, it could get very very expensive. And the bad guys are eventually going to notice!

Not destroy.  Survive.  Survive to return and download information.  Then the Shadow Broker can go "Huh.  So that's what's been smashing all my probes" and decide what his next move should be.

We do not know how reliably his probes get through.  Though it looks like he did receive the remains of more than one.