1198 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

squee913 wrote...

 Anyone else notice how Smud's 3-2 reply has more guess work then even my first video? Not that I'm against guess work, but I thought he was criticizing me for that sort of thing. btw, his math for making the reaper only works if you make the giant assumption that they have been building the reaper for 2 years. They could have started it yesterday for all we know. The volume of the liquid being pumped into the Reaper would make one think that processing humans is not as slow as he claims. I can't know this for sure of course, but I still seriously doubt it would take 20 something years to make the thing.

I haven't watched his video replys - I see how many videos there are on youtube with him as the author and I've already made up my mind that for my taste - he's a bit zany when it comes to ME.

Anywho, yes, I agree.  We don't know exactly when they started working on the Human Reaper, nor do we know really anything about the mechanisms involved in its making.

I also think "when the Human Reaper will be complete" is a moot point.  The Human Reaper doesn't have to be Sovereign's immediate replacement for the overall plot to work.

[Whatever42]

JKoopman wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Bioware is considered a "safe" developer yet here are a large number of Bioware fans screaming because Bioware, in their opinion, changed things too much? Bioware is not a safe developer.

I think, in point of fact, that people complain because BioWare made a series that actually was a little unique and unusual and then turned it into something "safe" with ME2 by making it more like a typical shooter.

I agree that ME2 is more mainstream than ME1. However, the plot of DA2 is definitely less mainstream than DAO, regardless of whether people liked the mechanics. But I guess its relative. There are many developers out there who barely touch their formulas while Bioware moved from BG2 to NWN (big innovation) to KotoR (fully voice cinematic experience, more innovation) to Jade Empire (martial arts, completely different style for them) to ME1 and then again to ME2, Bioware seems to be changing stuff up all the time.

Compare that to Bethesda or Square Enix.

Now maybe we're only talking about writing, in which case, yes Bioware is a bit cliche (although again, DA2 was pretty new ground for them) but there aren't that many planescape torment's out there.

[UKStory135]

Squee, I think you have done a great job! I have no problem with Smusboy or any other ME1 lover, but I tend to agree with your points. I think that ME2 is a great game, maybe one of the greatest ever, and you illustrate that well. I rank it up there with Super Metroid, Super Mario Bros. 3, Uncharted 2, and Mega Man 2. It's a generation defining game and the criticism of it, while maybe valid is nitpicking and reducing from something that is greater than the sum of it's parts. I love ME1, but no game has brought me more joy than for a longer period of time than ME2. ME2 is the most fun game I have ever played.

[piemanz]

squee913 wrote...

 Anyone else notice how Smud's 3-2 reply has more guess work then even my first video? .

Can't watch it.

I watched the first 2 of his replys but i refuse to subject myself to that drivel any longer.

[Whatever42]

piemanz wrote...

squee913 wrote...

 Anyone else notice how Smud's 3-2 reply has more guess work then even my first video? .

Can't watch it.

I watched the first 2 of his replys but i refuse to subject myself to that drivel any longer.

I confess, I can't watch him anymore either. I facepalm way too much and eventually hurt myself.

[Iakus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

A Reaper is a cyborg. A Reaper is a nation of programs. A Reaper is constructed from decontructed individuals of a particular species.

The Reapers apparently don't want cloned material. They want original DNA. So the that's important to them. They also want specific individuals, which is another clue.

I think its clear that these programs use the individual minds of those they "ascend" in their creation, molded into a borg-like group mind by the indoctrination field. Bioware has been dropping hints like candy from a piniata. It has to be something like that.

Cyborg creature I can get behind.  Or at least some sort of organic component.  But what is the component?  What's wrong with cloned material?  What in fact is the goop, whatever the color?  What tissue do they need?  Why the whole body?  If they want DNA, couldn't they harvest blood or bone marrow, something renewable?

How does rendering a human down into organic paste, be it gray or glowing orange, preserve a mind?  Why do they want minds when indoctrination degrades them anyway?  How do these minds not go mad?   A group mind is not a natural state for humans.  If they want minds, why can't they use synthetic minds like geth?  Or AIs? Why not graybox technology?

So, what is the "essence of a species"?

[JKoopman]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

piemanz wrote...

squee913 wrote...

 Anyone else notice how Smud's 3-2 reply has more guess work then even my first video? .

Can't watch it.

I watched the first 2 of his replys but i refuse to subject myself to that drivel any longer.

I confess, I can't watch him anymore either. I facepalm way too much and eventually hurt myself.

Odd. I tend to have the same reaction to most of Squee's arguments...

[piemanz]

iakus wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

A Reaper is a cyborg. A Reaper is a nation of programs. A Reaper is constructed from decontructed individuals of a particular species.

The Reapers apparently don't want cloned material. They want original DNA. So the that's important to them. They also want specific individuals, which is another clue.

I think its clear that these programs use the individual minds of those they "ascend" in their creation, molded into a borg-like group mind by the indoctrination field. Bioware has been dropping hints like candy from a piniata. It has to be something like that.

Cyborg creature I can get behind.  Or at least some sort of organic component.  But what is the component?  What's wrong with cloned material?  What in fact is the goop, whatever the color?  What tissue do they need?  Why the whole body?  If they want DNA, couldn't they harvest blood or bone marrow, something renewable?

How does rendering a human down into organic paste, be it gray or glowing orange, preserve a mind?  Why do they want minds when indoctrination degrades them anyway?  How do these minds not go mad?   A group mind is not a natural state for humans.  If they want minds, why can't they use synthetic minds like geth?  Or AIs? Why not graybox technology?

So, what is the "essence of a species"?

I suspect nobody but the reapers knows the answer to this, maybe we will find out in ME3, maybe not.I also suspect you can get behind a cyborg because it makes sense to you with what you know and understand.Maybe some things are beyond your understanding, if the conversation with sovereign is anything to go by then i would say theres plenty we dont or possibly can't understand about the reapers.

Modifié par piemanz, 01 avril 2011 - 03:53 .

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

piemanz wrote...

squee913 wrote...

 Anyone else notice how Smud's 3-2 reply has more guess work then even my first video? .

Can't watch it.

I watched the first 2 of his replys but i refuse to subject myself to that drivel any longer.

I confess, I can't watch him anymore either. I facepalm way too much and eventually hurt myself.

Odd. I tend to have the same reaction to most of Squee's arguments...

It's not odd at all, it's normal for individuals to look at things differently from one individual to the next.  You are a special, unique little snowflake.  

[Whatever42]

iakus wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

A Reaper is a cyborg. A Reaper is a nation of programs. A Reaper is constructed from decontructed individuals of a particular species.

The Reapers apparently don't want cloned material. They want original DNA. So the that's important to them. They also want specific individuals, which is another clue.

I think its clear that these programs use the individual minds of those they "ascend" in their creation, molded into a borg-like group mind by the indoctrination field. Bioware has been dropping hints like candy from a piniata. It has to be something like that.

Cyborg creature I can get behind.  Or at least some sort of organic component.  But what is the component?  What's wrong with cloned material?  What in fact is the goop, whatever the color?  What tissue do they need?  Why the whole body?  If they want DNA, couldn't they harvest blood or bone marrow, something renewable?

How does rendering a human down into organic paste, be it gray or glowing orange, preserve a mind?  Why do they want minds when indoctrination degrades them anyway?  How do these minds not go mad?   A group mind is not a natural state for humans.  If they want minds, why can't they use synthetic minds like geth?  Or AIs? Why not graybox technology?

So, what is the "essence of a species"?

Good questions and I would expect we learn the answer in ME3. I have no idea if they use all the tissue or just some of it.

Preserving a mind is easy to explain. Human minds are simply an electro-chemical pattern. Conceptually, if we had the technology we could deconstruct and recontruct it. Especially with inconceivable computer power and nanobots (or little robots as Chakwas call them). We know that the Reapers can create human-machine hybrids. We know that human minds can join group think with the Reapers through indoctrination. It all makes sense. I'm not convincing myself that these people are retrievable in any way.

So why are they organic? Why do they want to ascend species? Whey do they want species to evolve naturally and not just farm them? Why do they want these species to progress technologically and not just harvest them when they are still more primitive? And down a Reaper approved technological path?

My theory is that the Reapers were origially organic. Perhaps machine cultists created a  cyborg, which they saw as the ultimate evolution of organic life. Perhaps they then forcibly ascended the rest of their species. Cloning or simply being machines is insufficient - they wanted immortality and perfection.

However, Reapers might be eternal but they can't really grow or evolve. That's something unique to organic life. So they let organic life evolve in the galaxy. Because these minds are used in a Reaper as organic components, they want these minds to be technologically cogent and Reaper technology at that. Maybe they pick species not simply to procreate (why would an eternal race need to procreate at all?) but because they think that species has something new - that evolution has created a new variation. Maybe that's why Shepard is so awesome to the Reapers - no one has killed a Reaper before so Shepard, not just a lump of organic tissue but a a mind, would add something invaluable to the Reapers, a potential advancement.

All conjecture but it fits. Of course, fitting doesn't make it remotely right but I hope its explained in ME3. Regardless, there are lots of potential rationales.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 01 avril 2011 - 03:56 .

[Iakus]

squee913 wrote...

 Anyone else notice how Smud's 3-2 reply has more guess work then even my first video? Not that I'm against guess work, but I thought he was criticizing me for that sort of thing. btw, his math for making the reaper only works if you make the giant assumption that they have been building the reaper for 2 years. They could have started it yesterday for all we know. The volume of the liquid being pumped into the Reaper would make one think that processing humans is not as slow as he claims. I can't know this for sure of course, but I still seriously doubt it would take 20 something years to make the thing.

I believe the point was the story requires so much guesswork to make sense.  Essentially, the player has to fill in the blanks themselves for too much of what's going one, or why something is not going on.  Hey, I'm willing to go that route.  If I can get a writing credit

Smudboy's estimation is guesswork.  But in this particular case it makes sense.  I mean, why would the Collectors be scooping up humans for two years, hundreds of thousands of humans, but only start to build the Reaper recently?  Why store humans that long?  Or does the goo take two years to turn orange? (Aged to perfection!) 

[Whatever42]

JKoopman wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

piemanz wrote...

squee913 wrote...

 Anyone else notice how Smud's 3-2 reply has more guess work then even my first video? .

Can't watch it.

I watched the first 2 of his replys but i refuse to subject myself to that drivel any longer.

I confess, I can't watch him anymore either. I facepalm way too much and eventually hurt myself.

Odd. I tend to have the same reaction to most of Squee's arguments...

Oh, its not Smud's arguments that make me facepalm. It's his complete unwillingness to have a real dialogue.

[Almostfaceman]

iakus wrote...

squee913 wrote...

 Anyone else notice how Smud's 3-2 reply has more guess work then even my first video? Not that I'm against guess work, but I thought he was criticizing me for that sort of thing. btw, his math for making the reaper only works if you make the giant assumption that they have been building the reaper for 2 years. They could have started it yesterday for all we know. The volume of the liquid being pumped into the Reaper would make one think that processing humans is not as slow as he claims. I can't know this for sure of course, but I still seriously doubt it would take 20 something years to make the thing.

Smudboy's estimation is guesswork.  But in this particular case it makes sense.  I mean, why would the Collectors be scooping up humans for two years, hundreds of thousands of humans, but only start to build the Reaper recently?  Why store humans that long?  Or does the goo take two years to turn orange? (Aged to perfection!) 

*shrug*  I always just kinda expected that a lot of those answers would come in Act 3.  To me it makes sense only to reveal some information now and retain some mystery for later - as writers usually do in stories.

[Whatever42]

iakus wrote...

squee913 wrote...

 Anyone else notice how Smud's 3-2 reply has more guess work then even my first video? Not that I'm against guess work, but I thought he was criticizing me for that sort of thing. btw, his math for making the reaper only works if you make the giant assumption that they have been building the reaper for 2 years. They could have started it yesterday for all we know. The volume of the liquid being pumped into the Reaper would make one think that processing humans is not as slow as he claims. I can't know this for sure of course, but I still seriously doubt it would take 20 something years to make the thing.

I believe the point was the story requires so much guesswork to make sense.  Essentially, the player has to fill in the blanks themselves for too much of what's going one, or why something is not going on.  Hey, I'm willing to go that route.  If I can get a writing credit

Smudboy's estimation is guesswork.  But in this particular case it makes sense.  I mean, why would the Collectors be scooping up humans for two years, hundreds of thousands of humans, but only start to build the Reaper recently?  Why store humans that long?  Or does the goo take two years to turn orange? (Aged to perfection!) 

They had to tool up the factory. And they only have so many humans so the construction has dependencies that slow down the work process. Maybe humans are processed in batches. They are deconstructed and then it takes much longer for the nanobots to reconstruct the tissue inside the Reaper. Only when they're done do they take the next batch. Or it was simply delays so us the players could view the scene.

How were they building the death star out there? I didn't see a fleet of factory ships. Did they really ship all those materials out there?

Why did they build robots with an absolute fixed lifespan in blade runner? Why didn't they just wipe the memories?

Nothing can stand up to that kind of scrutiny.

Heck, I'm going to go totally Godwin on you. Why the heck did Hitler invade the USSR? It makes very little sense.

This kind of nitpicking as an intellectual exercise is fine. But I can tear apart ME1 easily with the same tools. Or any movie you care to mention.

[piemanz]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Oh, its not Smud's arguments that make me facepalm. It's his complete unwillingness to have a real dialogue.

For me it's a little from column A and a little from column B and the fact he just drones on and on.

But mainly this..

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

This kind of
nitpicking as an intellectual exercise is fine. But I can tear apart ME1
easily with the same tools. Or any movie you care to mention.

Modifié par piemanz, 01 avril 2011 - 04:09 .

[Iakus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Preserving a mind is easy to explain. Human minds are simply an electro-chemical pattern. Conceptually, if we had the technology we could deconstruct and recontruct it. Especially with inconceivable computer power and nanobots (or little robots as Chakwas call them). We know that the Reapers can create human-machine hybrids. We know that human minds can join group think with the Reapers through indoctrination. It all makes sense. I'm not convincing myself that these people are retrievable in any way.

If we had the technology, perhaos.  But the technology we've seen in teh Mass Effect Universe can't even reconstruct an AI personality, let alone a human mind.  Well, except for the Lazarus Project, which is never explained ast all.

Human minds can be joined via an indoctrination field.  But the deterioration does continue.  Those people generally all end up husks.  Saren and Benezia are the closest we've ever really seen to people exposed to indocrination fields long-term and remained functional in any way. 

So why are they organic? Why do they want to ascend species? Whey do they want species to evolve naturally and not just farm them? Why do they want these species to progress technologically and not just harvest them when they are still more primitive? And down a Reaper approved technological path?

My theory is that the Reapers were origially organic. Perhaps machine cultists created a  cyborg, which they saw as the ultimate evolution of organic life. Perhaps they then forcibly ascended the rest of their species. Cloning or simply being machines is insufficient - they wanted immortality and perfection.

However, Reapers might be eternal but they can't really grow or evolve. That's something unique to organic life. So they let organic life evolve in the galaxy. Because these minds are used in a Reaper as organic components, they want these minds to be technologically cogent and Reaper technology at that. Maybe they pick species not simply to procreate (why would an eternal race need to procreate at all?) but because they think that species has something new - that evolution has created a new variation. Maybe that's why Shepard is so awesome to the Reapers - no one has killed a Reaper before so Shepard, not just a lump of organic tissue but a a mind, would add something invaluable to the Reapers, a potential advancement.

All conjecture but it fits. Of course, fitting doesn't make it remotely right but I hope its explained in ME3. Regardless, there are lots of potential rationales.

Your theory has merit..  Though I will point out that the Reapers consider themsselves already perfect.  Species are probably considered "worthy" based on some unknown criteria, not because they bring anything new to the table. 

But the problem I have with the game isn't necessarilly that these aren't answered.  It's that they aren't addressed at all.  There is no investigation, no pausing to wonder.  Or voiced questions.  Just EDI providing an infodump which is accepted as gospel.  There aren't even any questions about how EDI figures all this out.  It's like pausing to marvel at the strangeness of Reapers detracts from the boss fight or something.

[Iakus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

They had to tool up the factory. And they only have so many humans so the construction has dependencies that slow down the work process. Maybe humans are processed in batches. They are deconstructed and then it takes much longer for the nanobots to reconstruct the tissue inside the Reaper. Only when they're done do they take the next batch. Or it was simply delays so us the players could view the scene.

How were they building the death star out there? I didn't see a fleet of factory ships. Did they really ship all those materials out there?

Why did they build robots with an absolute fixed lifespan in blade runner? Why didn't they just wipe the memories?

Nothing can stand up to that kind of scrutiny.

Heck, I'm going to go totally Godwin on you. Why the heck did Hitler invade the USSR? It makes very little sense.

This kind of nitpicking as an intellectual exercise is fine. But I can tear apart ME1 easily with the same tools. Or any movie you care to mention.

Ando so the simplest answer makes the most sense:

1)  Collectors have been grabbing humans for two years before the Suicide Mission
2) The humans were being used as a component for the human Reaper

therefore

3) The Collectors have been working on the Human Reaper for two years.

Now where things get a little funny is when EDI claims that "only" tens of thousands of humans have been processed when hundreds of thousands have been kidnapped, and that it would take millions more to complete the Reaper. 

If we can assume that what EDI said was accurate, and not a plot hole, a continuity error, or a mistake on EDI's part (any of these is certainly arguable) then there must be some sort of bottleneck or other slowdown in Reaper construction.  This ends up in the goo being processed much more slowly than the Collectors have been grabbing colonies, and ending up with a construction timeline measured in decades rather than years.

Modifié par iakus, 01 avril 2011 - 04:18 .

[piemanz]

iakus wrote...

Your theory has merit..  Though I will point out that the Reapers consider themsselves already perfect.  Species are probably considered "worthy" based on some unknown criteria, not because they bring anything new to the table

Seems plausible to me, why else would they let civilisation evolve and then come and wipe it out when they deem they've evolved enough?.

iakus wrote...

But the problem I have with the game isn't necessarilly that these aren't answered.  It's that they aren't addressed at all.  There is no investigation, no pausing to wonder.  Or voiced questions.  Just EDI providing an infodump which is accepted as gospel.  There aren't even any questions about how EDI figures all this out.  It's like pausing to marvel at the strangeness of Reapers detracts from the boss fight or something.

The info dump came pretty much at the end of the game, it's a trilogy , i'm sure all these questions will be answed in ME3.

[Whatever42]

iakus wrote...

If we had the technology, perhaos.  But the technology we've seen in teh Mass Effect Universe can't even reconstruct an AI personality, let alone a human mind.  Well, except for the Lazarus Project, which is never explained ast all.

Human minds can be joined via an indoctrination field.  But the deterioration does continue.  Those people generally all end up husks.  Saren and Benezia are the closest we've ever really seen to people exposed to indocrination fields long-term and remained functional in any way. 

The Reapers - inventors of the Citadel and relays - very well might have the technology. We can't create frogger Saren's either but Sovey did.

And those sapient beings that deteriorate when exposed to the full force of indoctrination are not part of the Reaper. I assume that the sapient minds that went into the Reaper are cyborgs, not simply brains floating in glass jars.

Again, I could be wrong. I really, really hope we find out in ME3.

Your theory has merit..  Though I will point out that the Reapers consider themsselves already perfect.  Species are probably considered "worthy" based on some unknown criteria, not because they bring anything new to the table. 

But the problem I have with the game isn't necessarilly that these aren't answered.  It's that they aren't addressed at all.  There is no investigation, no pausing to wonder.  Or voiced questions.  Just EDI providing an infodump which is accepted as gospel.  There aren't even any questions about how EDI figures all this out.  It's like pausing to marvel at the strangeness of Reapers detracts from the boss fight or something.

Thanks.  I know how carefully and logically you think about things so that's a huge compliment!

That is what Sovey said, I agree. But there has to be something that explains the Reaper cull besides giggles. I don't think they regard themselves as perfect, simply the pinnacle of sapient life.

I agree with you that more discussion and wonder would have made for a better ending. I accept that EDI is very smart and has a lot of data to make conclusions but I think that should have been a very important moment where we learned something deep - and didn't have to guess about it. Maybe they're saving it all for ME3 - I hope that's the case.

[Whatever42]

iakus wrote...

Ando so the simplest answer makes the most sense:

1)  Collectors have been grabbing humans for two years before the Suicide Mission
2) The humans were being used as a component for the human Reaper

therefore

3) The Collectors have been working on the Human Reaper for two years.

Now where things get a little funny is when EDI claims that "only" tens of thousands of humans have been processed when hundreds of thousands have been kidnapped, and that it would take millions more to complete the Reaper. 

If we can assume that what EDI said was accurate, and not a plot hole, a continuity error, or a mistake on EDI's part (any of these is certainly arguable) then there must be some sort of bottleneck or other slowdown in Reaper construction.  This ends up in the goo being processed much more slowly than the Collectors have been grabbing colonies, and ending up with a construction timeline measured in decades rather than years.

Ah, fair enough. I think EDI saying 10s of thousands was misleading. We know they took 1/3 of horizon, which would have been 200,000 people. We also know that all those people were processed from sometime before the Collector Ship trap to the end of the game. That could be just weeks - but in reality it was at the speed of plot (nice phrase someone used on another thread). They wanted us to see it in action.

So if they could process 200,000 in a few weeks then it would take them several months to do a million.

But just because they can process 200,000 in a few weeks doesn't mean they can grab a 200,000 in a few weeks. Do we know how big these other colonies are?

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 01 avril 2011 - 04:31 .

[Almostfaceman]

iakus wrote...

If we can assume that what EDI said was accurate, and not a plot hole, a continuity error, or a mistake on EDI's part (any of these is certainly arguable) then there must be some sort of bottleneck or other slowdown in Reaper construction.  This ends up in the goo being processed much more slowly than the Collectors have been grabbing colonies, and ending up with a construction timeline measured in decades rather than years.

I'm not sure how we can jump to that conclusion.  Let me give just one example:

I'm building a model car.  I'm using red paint.  I use only small bits of the red pain to "detail" engine parts or furniture bits.  Then at one stage, I'm on the exterior and I'm going through the red paint like gangbusters coating the exterior of the doors, the hood, the trunk lid... what was once a slowly depleting jar of red paint is now suddenly an empty jar of red paint.

See, the "human goo" use doesn't have to be a constant, it can be sorta like the "red paint" in a way.  With that in mind it's pretty much impossible to know how fast they'll go through the goo.  EDI can make guesstimates, but that's what they are - guesstimates. 

[JKoopman]

Almostfaceman wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

piemanz wrote...

squee913 wrote...

 Anyone else notice how Smud's 3-2 reply has more guess work then even my first video? .

Can't watch it.

I watched the first 2 of his replys but i refuse to subject myself to that drivel any longer.

I confess, I can't watch him anymore either. I facepalm way too much and eventually hurt myself.

Odd. I tend to have the same reaction to most of Squee's arguments...

It's not odd at all, it's normal for individuals to look at things differently from one individual to the next.  You are a special, unique little snowflake.  

That goes against everything Tyler Durden taught me.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I actually thought Smud's response to 3-2 was pretty good, although he still nitpicks and makes assumptions.

[Bamboozalist]

JKoopman wrote...

I think, in point of fact, that people complain because BioWare made a series that actually was a little unique and unusual and then turned it into something "safe" with ME2 by making it more like a typical shooter.

*DISCLAIMER: I LOVE ME1*

Wait, ME1 was unique? Funny I could swear I'd seen the story, characters, and overall style pretty much everywhere before, hell I'd seen it in previous Bioware games.

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...


That goes against everything Tyler Durden taught me.

So, you're like a monkey then, ready to be shot into space?  A space monkey!?  Ready to sacrifice yourself for the greater good?   You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else?  You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world?  You are Jack's smirking revenge?