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[Almostfaceman]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Mister Ford wrote...

The story of Shepard vs the Collectors does stand alone, and is complete.  The Collectors likely had no idea why they were doing what they were doing.  Only the Reapers know. Maybe the writers purposely held back info about the Reapers for part 3.  But we don't need to know the motivation behind the human Reaper for the story of ME2 to be complete, it was the story of Shepard and his/her team vs the Collectors.

I think we do need to know the motivation.

In ME1, we knew Saren's motivation.  We knew why Sovereign wanted to attack the Citadel.  We knew why the Geth followed Sovereign.  This was explained, by the writers. 

The reason why the purpose for the Human Reaper wasn't explained in ME2 was sloppy writing. 

I don't think it was.  It's introduced at the end of the story, to tell us more about the Reapers and remind us that we don't know everything.  I'm perfectly willing to wait until ME3 to be told the rest of the Reaper story.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

But keep in mind, each story is not always written the same way. The Star Wars example constantly comes up. Episode IV functions fairly well stand alone. Episode V? Not so much. Episode VI completes the fully story.

The Batman trilogy was similar in this regard, as was Spiderman and the Matrix. As much as I detest the two sequels, even Pirates of the Carribean operated under the same framework.

If Mass Effect 1 is standalone, must Mass Effect 2 necessarily be so? 

The Matrix was originally a standalone film.  It was only after it became a hit that the sequels were made (which were filmed simultaneously and were pretty much two halves of a single story, albiet a terrible one)  Same with Pirates of the Carribean.  I honestly don't know how standalone the Batman or Spiderman films were supposed to be.  But the Batman ones seem to stnd pretty well on their own.

Star Wars, Episode V, while leaving lots of room for a sequel, did in fact tell its own story, and answered most of the questions it raised.  The Rebellion was dealt a blow, but was recovering.  Luke learned more about the ways of the Jedi.  He learned why Vader and the Emperor were so interested in him (a claim Shepard cannot honestly make about the Reapers)  The overall trilogy was not complete, no, but the current arc was.

Must the Mass Effect games be so?  Well, let me put it this way: 

Given I paid full price for ME 2, content dlc at this point would run another thirty bucks or so  I'd sure have liked it to be a complete game, not one long hook/advertisement for ME 3. ("To find out what the ::expletive:: just happened, shell out another sixy bucks!")

[JKoopman]

Mister Ford wrote...

The story of Shepard vs the Collectors does stand alone, and is complete.  The Collectors likely had no idea why they were doing what they were doing.  Only the Reapers know. Maybe the writers purposely held back info about the Reapers for part 3.  But we don't need to know the motivation behind the human Reaper for the story of ME2 to be complete, it was the story of Shepard and his/her team vs the Collectors.

All of that goes right back to what I said earlier...

JKoopman wrote...

Something that people seem to be overlooking or misunderstanding is that it's not necessarily that everything in the plot isn't explained to the player (and by extension, Shepard) in Act 2; it's that the lack of explanation apparently satisfies Shepard and co. They simply accept the [lack of] explanation without the slightest hint of curiosity.

I can accept--if not necessarily like--that some aspects of the plot/story are "not supposed to make complete sense yet" because the exposition and explanation is forthcoming in Act 3 provided the protagonist(s) display the same level of incredulity and bewilderment as the player. They do not. For example, EDI pulls her infodump revelations and suppositions out of thin air and Shepard just goes along with it like it's a matter of course. When EDI points out the method and purpose of the Human-Reaper and explains that Reapers are actually semi-organic and not purely mechanical, rather than saying "Wait. What!? How do you know this? Everything we've seen up until now has painted them as being completely artificial. And what possible use could this thing be? This doesn't make any sense!" he's just like "Oh. OK. *shrug*" and goes back to shooting.

I would sincerely love it if everything that makes no sense in ME2 were to be fully explained in ME3 but, judging by the way BioWare wrote the character reactions to these unexplained events, I have the distinct impression that BioWare believes the current exposition to be sufficient.

Modifié par JKoopman, 03 avril 2011 - 12:32 .

[Iakus]

Almostfaceman wrote...


I don't think it was.  It's introduced at the end of the story, to tell us more about the Reapers and remind us that we don't know everything.  I'm perfectly willing to wait until ME3 to be told the rest of the Reaper story.

It was introduced because it was the point of grabbing up all those human colonies (And I guess they thought it would be totally baad**** for Shepard to fight a Reaper.  Even a larval one) .  Shepard was there to put a stop to it.  But what did he put a stop to?  What was the point of it all?  What was the Collector/Reapers motivation?

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Almostfaceman wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Mister Ford wrote...

The story of Shepard vs the Collectors does stand alone, and is complete.  The Collectors likely had no idea why they were doing what they were doing.  Only the Reapers know. Maybe the writers purposely held back info about the Reapers for part 3.  But we don't need to know the motivation behind the human Reaper for the story of ME2 to be complete, it was the story of Shepard and his/her team vs the Collectors.

I think we do need to know the motivation.

In ME1, we knew Saren's motivation.  We knew why Sovereign wanted to attack the Citadel.  We knew why the Geth followed Sovereign.  This was explained, by the writers. 

The reason why the purpose for the Human Reaper wasn't explained in ME2 was sloppy writing. 

I don't think it was.  It's introduced at the end of the story, to tell us more about the Reapers and remind us that we don't know everything.  I'm perfectly willing to wait until ME3 to be told the rest of the Reaper story.

But it's not just some minor plot point.  It's the entire reason why the Collectors were attacking human colonies.  It's implied that it's part of the reason they went after your crew.  Building this Human Reaper is clearly extremely important to the Collectors, and thus to Shepard and to us. 

It's a lot more important for us to know the purpose of the Human Reaper than for us to know, say, that the Collectors used to be Prothean.  And for the latter, we get an explanation of how that happened. 

Leaving it as a mystery probably means the writers haven't figured it out either.  Otherwise they'd tell us.  

[Almostfaceman]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Leaving it as a mystery probably means the writers haven't figured it out either.  Otherwise they'd tell us.  

No offense, but I'm really not going to rely on your opinion on what the writers may or may not have figured out yet.  You're simply not in a position to know anything about that.

[Iakus]

JKoopman wrote...

Something that people seem to be overlooking or misunderstanding is that it's not necessarily that everything in the plot isn't explained to the player (and by extension, Shepard) in Act 2; it's that the lack of explanation apparently satisfies Shepard and co. They simply accept the [lack of] explanation without the slightest hint of curiosity.

I can accept--if not necessarily like--that some aspects of the plot/story are "not supposed to make complete sense yet" because the exposition and explanation is forthcoming in Act 3 provided the protagonist(s) display the same level of incredulity and bewilderment as the player. They do not. For example, EDI pulls her infodump revelations and suppositions out of thin air and Shepard just goes along with it like it's a matter of course. When EDI points out the method and purpose of the Human-Reaper and explains that Reapers are actually semi-organic and not purely mechanical, rather than saying "Wait. What!? How do you know this? Everything we've seen up until now has painted them as being completely artificial. And what possible use could this thing be? This doesn't make any sense!" he's just like "Oh. OK. *shrug*" and goes back to shooting.

I would sincerely love it if everything that makes no sense in ME2 were to be fully explained in ME3 but, judging by the way BioWare wrote the character reactions to these unexplained events, I have the distinct impression that BioWare believes the current exposition to be sufficient.

Indeed:

"No.  I  am your father"  completes arc

"Ben...why didn't you tell me?"  leads to new arc

Modifié par iakus, 03 avril 2011 - 12:40 .

[Almostfaceman]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

But it's not just some minor plot point.    

Of course it's not a minor plot point, that's what makes it a great cliffhanger plot point for me.

[JKoopman]

squee913 wrote...

Lastly, sarcastic or not saying that you laugh at sci-fi fans in general is an insult to anyone who ever enjoyed any sci-fi movie, book, game, or show. Just because you are trying to be sarcastic does not mean you are not going to insult people. I don't understand why he keeps throwing out personal insults to me and everyone who does not agree with him. It only hurts his cause. a few might agree, some might overlook, but most just see it as childish. I may attack his arguments and criticize his presentation methods, but I never insulted his character, intelligence, or taste. I understand that some people can not tell the difference, but there is a clear difference.

You say that smudboy is going through ME2's story looking for anything he can nitpick and hold up as an example of inconsistency or sloppy writing. I say that you're going through smudboy's responses looking for anything that you can nitpick and hold up as an example of rude or insulting behaviour. I consider the level of restraint he's shown so far to be remarkable considering the amount of ridicule and the increasingly condescending tone that you've been leveling at him in your videos for the better part of the last 30 minutes. But hey, that's just my opinion.

[Almostfaceman]

iakus wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...


I don't think it was.  It's introduced at the end of the story, to tell us more about the Reapers and remind us that we don't know everything.  I'm perfectly willing to wait until ME3 to be told the rest of the Reaper story.

It was introduced because it was the point of grabbing up all those human colonies (And I guess they thought it would be totally baad**** for Shepard to fight a Reaper.  Even a larval one) .  Shepard was there to put a stop to it.  But what did he put a stop to?  What was the point of it all?  What was the Collector/Reapers motivation?

And it told us more about the Reapers, which I already said.

I'm willing to wait for ME3 to find out more about the Reaper motivations.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Almostfaceman wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

But it's not just some minor plot point.    

Of course it's not a minor plot point, that's what makes it a great cliffhanger plot point for me.

The entire motivation for the antagonist shouldn't be a "cliffhanger."  And I'm wagering that we'll never get an explanation that makes coherent sense as to why the Collectors would do any of this.

What happens - sure, cliffhanger.  But motivation?  That should be fundamentally clear.

As it stands, we've got:
1. Build Human Reaper
2. ??
3. Profit!

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Lastly, sarcastic or not saying that you laugh at sci-fi fans in general is an insult to anyone who ever enjoyed any sci-fi movie, book, game, or show. Just because you are trying to be sarcastic does not mean you are not going to insult people. I don't understand why he keeps throwing out personal insults to me and everyone who does not agree with him. It only hurts his cause. a few might agree, some might overlook, but most just see it as childish. I may attack his arguments and criticize his presentation methods, but I never insulted his character, intelligence, or taste. I understand that some people can not tell the difference, but there is a clear difference.

You say that smudboy is going through ME2's story looking for anything he can nitpick and hold up as an example of inconsistency or sloppy writing. I say that you're going through smudboy's responses looking for anything that you can nitpick and hold up as an example of rude or insulting behaviour. I consider the level of restraint he's shown so far to be remarkable considering the amount of ridicule and the increasingly condescending tone that you've been leveling at him in your videos for the better part of the last 30 minutes. But hey, that's just my opinion.

It's interesting you're focusing on squee's tone but not smudboy's.  I have no dog in this hunt, and I found smud's tone to be quite condescending.

[Almostfaceman]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

But it's not just some minor plot point.    

Of course it's not a minor plot point, that's what makes it a great cliffhanger plot point for me.

The entire motivation for the antagonist shouldn't be a "cliffhanger."  And I'm wagering that we'll never get an explanation that makes coherent sense as to why the Collectors would do any of this.

What happens - sure, cliffhanger.  But motivation?  That should be fundamentally clear.

As it stands, we've got:
1. Build Human Reaper
2. ??
3. Profit!

Good luck with your wager, and what should or shouldn't happen is a matter of opinion.

There are a looot of people ready to buy ME3 to further explore that motivation.  I'm one of them.

[Iakus]

Almostfaceman wrote...

And it told us more about the Reapers, which I already said.

I'm willing to wait for ME3 to find out more about the Reaper motivations.

Well, it did give us the elusive Reaper/Soylent Green connection....

But if you're willing to wait, well, you're willing to wait.  I for one expected Mass Effect 2, not Mass Effect 2, part 1.

[spacehamsterZH]

Almostfaceman wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Leaving it as a mystery probably means the writers haven't figured it out either.  Otherwise they'd tell us.  

No offense, but I'm really not going to rely on your opinion on what the writers may or may not have figured out yet.  You're simply not in a position to know anything about that.

You're just picking out one poorly phrased part of his response here. HHJJ's main point stands - the motivation of the main villain(s) in ME2 remains a mystery. They were building some largely unexplained McGuffin for purposes unknown, directed by a Reaper called Harbinger who is... somewhere, but we don't know where.

You can say that's all fine with you and you don't need an explanation for anything, but it does mean we were basically shooting at a bunch of bug-faced bad guys whose motivation we never got to figure out for the entire game, and most people would say a main villain with no apparent motivation is not typically a sign of good writing. Shoehorning the Collectors into the ME plot so that ME2 would have its own cohesive dramatic arc and conclusion and not suffer too much from being the second act in a trilogy may have been a good idea in theory, but what came out of it just didn't make a whole lot of sense or accomplish anything in the grand scheme of things. As evidenced by Arrival, if nothing else.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Almostfaceman wrote...

There are a looot of people ready to buy ME3 to further explore that motivation.  I'm one of them.

There are a lot of people ready to buy the next Justin Beiber CD too.  Your point? 

[Iakus]

Almostfaceman wrote....

There are a looot of people ready to buy ME3 to further explore that motivation.  I'm one of them.

Just a point of interest, there's a lot of people waiting for the next Twilight movie as well.
Also the next season of Survivor
The next Danielle Steel  novel
the next Transformers movie

Popularity:  Faster.  Easier.  But not stronger.

I wonder if there's a motivational poster for that?

[JKoopman]

Almostfaceman wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Lastly, sarcastic or not saying that you laugh at sci-fi fans in general is an insult to anyone who ever enjoyed any sci-fi movie, book, game, or show. Just because you are trying to be sarcastic does not mean you are not going to insult people. I don't understand why he keeps throwing out personal insults to me and everyone who does not agree with him. It only hurts his cause. a few might agree, some might overlook, but most just see it as childish. I may attack his arguments and criticize his presentation methods, but I never insulted his character, intelligence, or taste. I understand that some people can not tell the difference, but there is a clear difference.

You say that smudboy is going through ME2's story looking for anything he can nitpick and hold up as an example of inconsistency or sloppy writing. I say that you're going through smudboy's responses looking for anything that you can nitpick and hold up as an example of rude or insulting behaviour. I consider the level of restraint he's shown so far to be remarkable considering the amount of ridicule and the increasingly condescending tone that you've been leveling at him in your videos for the better part of the last 30 minutes. But hey, that's just my opinion.

It's interesting you're focusing on squee's tone but not smudboy's.  I have no dog in this hunt, and I found smud's tone to be quite condescending.

Smudboy doesn't have a tone. That's one of my fews actual complaints about his videos. His vocabulary is obviously impressive but he's completely monotonous. Listening to his videos is like watching paint dry.

Modifié par JKoopman, 03 avril 2011 - 12:58 .

[Almostfaceman]

spacehamsterZH wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Leaving it as a mystery probably means the writers haven't figured it out either.  Otherwise they'd tell us.  

No offense, but I'm really not going to rely on your opinion on what the writers may or may not have figured out yet.  You're simply not in a position to know anything about that.

You're just picking out one poorly phrased part of his response here. HHJJ's main point stands - the motivation of the main villain(s) in ME2 remains a mystery. They were building some largely unexplained McGuffin for purposes unknown, directed by a Reaper called Harbinger who is... somewhere, but we don't know where.

You can say that's all fine with you and you don't need an explanation for anything, but it does mean we were basically shooting at a bunch of bug-faced bad guys whose motivation we never got to figure out for the entire game, and most people would say a main villain with no apparent motivation is not typically a sign of good writing. Shoehorning the Collectors into the ME plot so that ME2 would have its own cohesive dramatic arc and conclusion and not suffer too much from being the second act in a trilogy may have been a good idea in theory, but what came out of it just didn't make a whole lot of sense or accomplish anything in the grand scheme of things. As evidenced by Arrival, if nothing else.

The bug faced bad guys were taking humans.  Before I knew their motivations, I knew I had to stop them.  When I found out later that they were using humans to make a Reaper, I found out what the bug faced guys motivations were.  Now I'm waiting to find out what the Reapers are all about in ME3.  That is cohesive enough for me.  I can't speak for you nor do I pretend to do so.

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Lastly, sarcastic or not saying that you laugh at sci-fi fans in general is an insult to anyone who ever enjoyed any sci-fi movie, book, game, or show. Just because you are trying to be sarcastic does not mean you are not going to insult people. I don't understand why he keeps throwing out personal insults to me and everyone who does not agree with him. It only hurts his cause. a few might agree, some might overlook, but most just see it as childish. I may attack his arguments and criticize his presentation methods, but I never insulted his character, intelligence, or taste. I understand that some people can not tell the difference, but there is a clear difference.

You say that smudboy is going through ME2's story looking for anything he can nitpick and hold up as an example of inconsistency or sloppy writing. I say that you're going through smudboy's responses looking for anything that you can nitpick and hold up as an example of rude or insulting behaviour. I consider the level of restraint he's shown so far to be remarkable considering the amount of ridicule and the increasingly condescending tone that you've been leveling at him in your videos for the better part of the last 30 minutes. But hey, that's just my opinion.

It's interesting you're focusing on squee's tone but not smudboy's.  I have no dog in this hunt, and I found smud's tone to be quite condescending.

Smudboy doesn't have a tone. That's one of my fews actual complaints about his videos. His vocabulary is obviously impressive but he's completely monotonous. Listening to his videos is like watching paint dry.

I disagree.  He has a condescending tone, and he has background music to lampoon the part of ME2 he is criticizing.  This is just my opinion, so maybe you don't detect it and maybe that's why you're focusing on squee.  

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Almostfaceman wrote...

The bug faced bad guys were taking humans.  Before I knew their motivations, I knew I had to stop them.  When I found out later that they were using humans to make a Reaper, I found out what the bug faced guys motivations were.  Now I'm waiting to find out what the Reapers are all about in ME3.  That is cohesive enough for me.  I can't speak for you nor do I pretend to do so.

That's not motivation.  That's their action.  Their motivation is for why they wanted to build a Human Reaper, and we've never gotten a hint for that. 

[Almostfaceman]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

There are a looot of people ready to buy ME3 to further explore that motivation.  I'm one of them.

There are a lot of people ready to buy the next Justin Beiber CD too.  Your point? 

LOL, if you're comparing ME2 to Justin Beiber that sounds like (if you don't like Justin Beiber) you have serious issues with ME2.  

Are you trying to insult my taste in games? lol

This prompts me to ask what you're doing here in the ME2 forum.  I mean, if you detest the game, is it your mission now to try and make, say, people like me, detest the game as well?  Do you plan to buy ME3?

My point was pretty obvious I thought.  A whole lot of people enjoyed the story and don't detest it (if you detest it) like you do.  That's why I'm here on the forums - 'cause I really enjoyed the game.

[Almostfaceman]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

The bug faced bad guys were taking humans.  Before I knew their motivations, I knew I had to stop them.  When I found out later that they were using humans to make a Reaper, I found out what the bug faced guys motivations were.  Now I'm waiting to find out what the Reapers are all about in ME3.  That is cohesive enough for me.  I can't speak for you nor do I pretend to do so.

That's not motivation.  That's their action.  Their motivation is for why they wanted to build a Human Reaper, and we've never gotten a hint for that. 

No, the bugs motivation was to build a human reaper.  What the Reapers motivations are is a separate matter to me.  The bugs were doing what they were told.  At the beginning of the story, we did not know why they were doing what they were doing. At the end of the story, we know why the bugs are doing what they were doing.

[Almostfaceman]

iakus wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote....

There are a looot of people ready to buy ME3 to further explore that motivation.  I'm one of them.

Just a point of interest, there's a lot of people waiting for the next Twilight movie as well.
Also the next season of Survivor
The next Danielle Steel  novel
the next Transformers movie

Popularity:  Faster.  Easier.  But not stronger.

I wonder if there's a motivational poster for that?

So, you're saying that everyone who shares my opinion about ME2 is as  in poor taste as, say, a Transformer fan?

[Almostfaceman]

Let's be careful here guys. I'm not insulting your taste in games or anything else. So please don't attempt to insult my taste. We can politely agree to disagree about how each of us feels about this game.