1198 réponses à ce sujet

[piemanz]

Autoclave wrote...

I bet you are one of those: "Wow! Terminator Reaper is so COOL!".

Do i think it's particulary cool?, no.But then i dont automaticly think it's lame and contrived either.I try to make sense of what the human Reapers presense has in the game and exactly what it means going forward to ME3.This for me is part of the fun.

If bioware shows me the human Reaper and proceeds to detail the exact nature of it's existence and the remifacations the fact they are trying to build one might have, then pretty much all my questions have been answered and i dont have that particualr part of the story to look forward to being explained in ME3.

The difference is i'm willing to wait until i know how the story plays out in full before i start screaming plothole

Modifié par piemanz, 03 avril 2011 - 05:08 .

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...


For one, I expect the events of Mass Effect 2 to be mentioned in Mass Effect 3, much in the way that Mass Effect 2 referenced the battle of the Citadel in Mass Effect 1.

Here's hoping events in past games will be referred to a bit more than that.  I'd rather have going through the Omega IV Relay have a greater impact in ME 3 than a 10% discount at stores in Omega.

The real question is: why must all these issues you mention be addressed? Some, like Shepard's resurrection, I feel is necessary if only because Overlord seems to imply that it wasn't quite so simple as TIM made it out. I also think it would be wasted opportunity otherwise.

Because these things keep ME 2 from making sense.  It's just a bunch of random stuff that happens,  I've never been any good at those Magic Eye pictures either.

Others, like the Human Reaper, I find more puzzling. Reapers exist. We now know that they 'reproduce' using organics to create hybrids. Does there have to be anything more to it than that? The Reapers created the Human Reaper because that's how they reproduce, using a race they deem 'worthy'. If we look on the Alpha Relay as being their real 'plan' in Mass Effect 2, it fits in fairly well in the grand scheme of things. If interpreted in this way, the only issues I still see are:

Yes, because the entirety of ME 2 led to that final battle.  It's construction was (apparantly) the whole purpose for the Reapers and the Collectors.  Stopping them was the purpose of the game.  If this does not somehow fit into the overall plans of the Reapers, or to have a "kewl boss fight" , then this whole game was nothing but a random act of violence on humans in the Terminus.

1) Harbinger's ambiguous 'We will find another way' comment. I'm not sure what he meant by that (if anything). It could simply mean they'll find another way to create a Reaper.

2) Why necessarily start building the Reaper now as opposed to later? Unless the Reapers were worried about the ability to harvest humans effectively with a galaxy united against them.

And yet ME 1 did not end with such puzzlers about the Reapers' plans.

But overall, I think this still works alot better than the Human Reaper having some special significance which has not necessarily been supported by the narrative. We invented the idea that the human reaper has some secret role, much like we invented the idea that the Reapers were millions of years away in dark space. My interpretation, at least.

It does not suprise me at all that the Reapers are closer than we believed.  At least, not since it became apparant that the Collectors were building a Human Reaper rather than a second dark space relay.  But this Reaper should have a greater significance, like I said, because its construction was the point of the game.  If it was just for S&Gs, then it truly was Mass Effect 2:  Killing Time Until Mass Effect 3. 

Modifié par iakus, 03 avril 2011 - 05:53 .

[piemanz]

iakus wrote...

It does not suprise me at all that the Reapers are closer than we believed.  At least, not since it became apparant that the Collectors were building a Human Reaper rather than a second dark space relay.  But this Reaper should have a greater significance, like I said, because its construction was the point of the game.  If it was just for S&Gs, then it truly was Mass Effect 2:  Killing Time Until Mass Effect 3. 

Was it's construction the point of the game?.I thought the point of the game was to find out why  the collectors are taking human colonies, and to stop them.Sure we also wanted to find out what their overall plan was but the main point of the game was to stop them at all costs.

The human Reaper is merely infomation gained from that process.For me it's more of a cliffhanger or plot twist than it was an end game 'boss' . Without the collectors to build it, the baby reaper was not much of a threat, so the main priority was stopping them.

But you're right we can't really know what the true importance of the human reaper is until ME3.

Modifié par piemanz, 03 avril 2011 - 06:41 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Because these things keep ME 2 from making sense.  It's just a bunch of random stuff that happens,  I've never been any good at those Magic Eye pictures either.

Could you elaborate?

Yes, because the entirety of ME 2 led to that final battle.  It's construction was (apparantly) the whole purpose for the Reapers and the Collectors.  Stopping them was the purpose of the game.  If this does not somehow fit into the overall plans of the Reapers, or to have a "kewl boss fight" , then this whole game was nothing but a random act of violence on humans in the Terminus.

It did fit into the overall plans of the Reapers. We learned that Reapers are more or less machine/organic hybrids. The entire point of this cycle is so that the Reapers can increase their numbers. Is there more to it? Possibly.  But you've only given why you want the human Reaper to be significant, not why the narrative itself supports the human reaper being for some unique person. It could, it could not.

And yet ME 1 did not end with such puzzlers about the Reapers' plans.

I beg to differ. The Reapers being 'beyond my understanding' did not tell me anything about why the Reapers do what they do. Mass Effect 2 does: reproduction.

It does not suprise me at all that the Reapers are closer than we believed.  At least, not since it became apparant that the Collectors were building a Human Reaper rather than a second dark space relay.  But this Reaper should have a greater significance, like I said, because its construction was the point of the game.  If it was just for S&Gs, then it truly was Mass Effect 2:  Killing Time Until Mass Effect 3. 

Then you are one of a small few, in this regard. I can't count the number of threads since Arrival came out expressing surprise that the Reapers could reach the galaxy so easily or before that, wondering how the Reapers were going to reach our galaxy.

Was it 'killing time'? Was it significant? I'd honestly say the answer is somewhere between the two. The plot did not move as far as it could have, this is true. But I think as an overall experience to say that we learned 'nothing' is a bit exaggerated.

As a collective experience, we now have:

1) a motivation for our enemy.
2) several potential allies whom Shepard can call on for aid later on.
3)  eliminated the Collectors as a Reaper proxy force (and potentially the heretic Geth).
4) if Renegade, we also have an entire Reaper base at our/TIm's disposal.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Now that I think about it: I actually expect the Human-Reaper to be referenced in ME3, along with why the Collectors were trying to build it.

[ErebUs890]

Autoclave wrote...

Whoever consider smudboy a moron, is a typical fanboy that will defend everybull**** regardless. 

I bet you are one of those: "Wow! Terminator Reaper is so COOL!".

Uuuh. Have you watched his video? He's an idiot. Plain and simple. Almost everything he whined about can be explained. And has been explained.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

ErebUs890 wrote...

Autoclave wrote...

Whoever consider smudboy a moron, is a typical fanboy that will defend everybull**** regardless. 

I bet you are one of those: "Wow! Terminator Reaper is so COOL!".

Uuuh. Have you watched his video? He's an idiot. Plain and simple. Almost everything he whined about can be explained. And has been explained.

Really?  Excellent.  So why were the Collectors building a Human Reaper?

[ErebUs890]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

ErebUs890 wrote...

Autoclave wrote...

Whoever consider smudboy a moron, is a typical fanboy that will defend everybull**** regardless. 

I bet you are one of those: "Wow! Terminator Reaper is so COOL!".

Uuuh. Have you watched his video? He's an idiot. Plain and simple. Almost everything he whined about can be explained. And has been explained.

Really?  Excellent.  So why were the Collectors building a Human Reaper?

If you knew everything after beating ME2, there would be no need for an ME3. Is this the first trilogy you've ever experienced?

[JKoopman]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

PS: JKoopman, you neglected the lovely plothole of the Seeker Swarm Mordin pulls out of his ass.

I don't include the Seeker that Mordin inexplicably has in his lab because, as odd and unexplained as it's presence is, it's not particularly relevant to the plot. We know that we've already collected data on the Collectors and their Seeker swarms via Veetor's scans, so it would've been completely understandable for Mordin to be able to synthesize his countermeasure using that data whether he had a physical Seeker sample or not. I'm not entirely sure why BioWare chose to show it, but whether it was there or not isn't particularly relevant to how the countermeasure was developed and thus how the plot plays out.

I did think about including it though.

Almostfaceman wrote...

JKoopman wrote...


You keep making these fantastical leaps of logic 

Ok, let me address you and anyone else who agree's with this point.

There's a stopping point to a debate.  If you're at the point where if someone tries to discuss with you the resurrection of Shepard, and you're going to look at their arguments as "fantastical leaps of logic" then there's really no point in moving forward with the discussion now is there? I'm certainly not saying you're not entitled to think that way - you are - but it's not a great starting point for anyone with a dissenting opinion.

You mistake me. I'm not saying that he makes fantastical leaps of logic by inventing narrative to explain Shepard's resurrection. I'm saying that he's making fantastical leaps of logic by somehow connecting one's desire for exposition on major unexplained plot points with a desire for exposition on things as trivial and irrelevant as why Shepard doesn't stop to go to the bathroom on his way to the bridge or the aforementioned unexplained bag of groceries on the counter; hence the "where you presume that..." part that you opted not to include in your quote.

I can only speculate on why you would seemingly intentionally take me out of context like that.

Modifié par JKoopman, 03 avril 2011 - 07:05 .

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

ErebUs890 wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

ErebUs890 wrote...

Autoclave wrote...

Whoever consider smudboy a moron, is a typical fanboy that will defend everybull**** regardless. 

I bet you are one of those: "Wow! Terminator Reaper is so COOL!".

Uuuh. Have you watched his video? He's an idiot. Plain and simple. Almost everything he whined about can be explained. And has been explained.

Really?  Excellent.  So why were the Collectors building a Human Reaper?

If you knew everything after beating ME2, there would be no need for an ME3. Is this the first trilogy you've ever experienced?

Hold on, you said: "Almost everything he whined about can be explained. And has been explained." 

So what is the explanation for the Human Reaper?

[Il Divo]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Hold on, you said: "Almost everything he whined about can be explained. And has been explained." 

So what is the explanation for the Human Reaper?

Checkmate.

[Bamboozalist]

Seriously why do we even complain about this crap? We've been playing a series where the entire first game's plot only exists because Saren and Sovereign are complete idiots.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Seriously why do we even complain about this crap? We've been playing a series where the entire first game's plot only exists because Saren and Sovereign are complete idiots.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Il Divo wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Hold on, you said: "Almost everything he whined about can be explained. And has been explained." 

So what is the explanation for the Human Reaper?

Checkmate.

Apparently.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

Because these things keep ME 2 from making sense.  It's just a bunch of random stuff that happens,  I've never been any good at those Magic Eye pictures either.

Could you elaborate?

Magic Eye

Now imagine me holding up my screen at different angles, squinting, turning it upside down, or whatever, while others are going "See?  The Lazarus Project is rebuilding Shepard's brain and memories through careful application of chemistry and cybernetics.  There's Wilson reading the instructions on the back of the box."

It did fit into the overall plans of the Reapers. We learned that Reapers are more or less machine/organic hybrids. The entire point of this cycle is so that the Reapers can increase their numbers. Is there more to it? Possibly.  But you've only given why you want the human Reaper to be significant, not why the narrative itself supports the human reaper being for some unique person. It could, it could not.

There is more to thier overall plans.  The Reapers also have to get back into our galaxy and scour it of advanced life.  Or this could be the last Reaper they ever build.  How does this advance it? 

And yet ME 1 did not end with such puzzlers about the Reapers' plans.

I beg to differ. The Reapers being 'beyond my understanding' did not tell me anything about why the Reapers do what they do. Mass Effect 2 does: reproduction. [/quote}

But it was clear that thier ultimate goal was killing every advanced life form in the known galaxy and continuing the cycle of destruction.  Their plans for the CItadel clearly advanced that.  The human Reaper, while it may shed a possible motive for this cycle (though is certainly doesn't explain why they don't keep a few farm planets of "worthy" races to harvest periodically, instead of killing everything and starting over every few dozen millenia) it does not explain how they are going to address the more immediate concern of starting the cycle.
 

Then you are one of a small few, in this regard. I can't count the number of threads since Arrival came out expressing surprise that the Reapers could reach the galaxy so easily or before that, wondering how the Reapers were going to reach our galaxy.

ME 2's story removed any other possibility.  Unless Shepard's new cybernetics added immortality to the equation, they had to be a lot closer to the galactic rim than we thought for ME 3 to conclude Shepard's storyline.

Or I suppose the Reapers could have been removed entirely from the series, and we could return to killing mercs.
/snark

As a collective experience, we now have:

1) a motivation for our enemy.

Possibly.  But that raises more questions than it answers.  Off the top of my head;

A)  What is the "esesnce of a species"?
Why does it take on the form of the base creature?
C) What makes humans so special?
D) Why do they wipe out "worthy races" rather than periodically harvest them?

2) several potential allies whom Shepard can call on for aid later on.

That is the only one I'm in complete agreement on

3)  eliminated the Collectors as a Reaper proxy force (and potentially the heretic Geth)

Geth I can go along with.  But were the Collectors really that big a threat?  Their only defense was their secretive nature.  When the Repers get here, they'll have indoctrinated slaves, husks, scions, fleets of dreadnaught sized ships, and likely stuff we haven't seen yet.  These guys built the Relay network.  They likely know tricks about them no one's figured out yet.

4) if Renegade, we also have an entire Reaper base at our/TIm's disposal.

I hesitate to call that a good thing    ::cough:: DerelictReaper::cough::

[ErebUs890]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

ErebUs890 wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

ErebUs890 wrote...

Autoclave wrote...

Whoever consider smudboy a moron, is a typical fanboy that will defend everybull**** regardless. 

I bet you are one of those: "Wow! Terminator Reaper is so COOL!".

Uuuh. Have you watched his video? He's an idiot. Plain and simple. Almost everything he whined about can be explained. And has been explained.

Really?  Excellent.  So why were the Collectors building a Human Reaper?

If you knew everything after beating ME2, there would be no need for an ME3. Is this the first trilogy you've ever experienced?

Hold on, you said: "Almost everything he whined about can be explained. And has been explained." 

So what is the explanation for the Human Reaper?

I said "almost"

And EDI suggested that the collectors were "faciliating reaper reproduction" by constructing a new reaper.

Modifié par ErebUs890, 03 avril 2011 - 08:16 .

[Autoclave]

Instead of human reaper, they could've made Collectors gather humans just for creating an army of husks. Retcon this and the Cyber Jesus and suddenly Mass Effect 2 has a plot living up to the expectations of ME1.

[piemanz]

Autoclave wrote...

Instead of human reaper, they could've made Collectors gather humans just for creating an army of husks.

Sure, they could have made an army of husks instead, but for whatever reason, makng a human reaper was obviously more important to them or they would indeed have made an army of husks instead.

Modifié par piemanz, 03 avril 2011 - 10:22 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

piemanz wrote...

Autoclave wrote...

Instead of human reaper, they could've made Collectors gather humans just for creating an army of husks.

Sure, they could have made an army of husks instead, but for whatever reason, makng a human reaper was obviously more important to them or they would indeed have made an army of husks instead.

I think many people suspects that the Reaper Larvae was important to put in the end because then they had something big to fight and go boom at the end of the game..and nothing more than that.

[piemanz]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Autoclave wrote...

Instead of human reaper, they could've made Collectors gather humans just for creating an army of husks.

Sure, they could have made an army of husks instead, but for whatever reason, makng a human reaper was obviously more important to them or they would indeed have made an army of husks instead.

I think many people suspects that the Reaper Larvae was important to put in the end because then they had something big to fight and go boom at the end of the game..and nothing more than that.

I know, and maybe they're right.In which case i will be extremely dissapointed.

Modifié par piemanz, 03 avril 2011 - 10:42 .

[squee913]

I think it is weird that a lot of you criticize us for "Making up narrative" when the people who cry plot hole make up narrative when ever they want.

Shepard fell to the planet!!
Really? I don't remember seeing or hearing about that. Last I saw he was floating away in space (might have been burning in an atmosphere might not)

The Collectors have been processing people for 2 years!!!!
Really? I don't remember the story saying that. They could have started yesterday for all we know.

TIM never even tried anything else to get information!!!
Really? When did the story ever say he never tried anything? You are just assuming that because he never said he did.

Wilson is going to be famous in Cerberus, and had no reason to betray them!!!
Really? where was that ever stated? All we saw was that he was very unhappy about his current place in things.

Reapers are made and then put into ships!! That's why they all look alike!
Really? When was this ever talked about? (unless there is something someone said outside of the game, which is possible) All we were ever told was that they take the form of the species used to reproduce. I remember going into the very core of a reaper ship. I never saw some reaper within a reaper...

All of these arguments are made by following what you think are logical conclusions. What I did was no different.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

squee913 wrote...

Shepard fell to the planet!!
Really? I don't remember seeing or hearing about that. Last I saw he was floating away in space (might have been burning in an atmosphere might not)

Remains of Shepard's armor can be found on the planet (the helmet)

The Collectors have been processing people for 2 years!!!!
Really? I don't remember the story saying that. They could have started yesterday for all we know.

"While you have been sleeping, entire colonies have vanished" TIM says something like this to Shepard during the first meeting. While it does not say how long it has gone on precisely, it suggest it has gone on for some time now.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

squee913 wrote...

I think it is weird that a lot of you criticize us for "Making up narrative" when the people who cry plot hole make up narrative when ever they want.

Shepard fell to the planet!!
Really? I don't remember seeing or hearing about that. Last I saw he was floating away in space (might have been burning in an atmosphere might not)

If he didn't fall to the planet, how did his helmet get there? 

[squee913]

Lizardviking wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Shepard fell to the planet!!
Really? I don't remember seeing or hearing about that. Last I saw he was floating away in space (might have been burning in an atmosphere might not)

Remains of Shepard's armor can be found on the planet (the helmet)

The Collectors have been processing people for 2 years!!!!
Really? I don't remember the story saying that. They could have started yesterday for all we know.

"While you have been sleeping, entire colonies have vanished" TIM says something like this to Shepard during the first meeting. While it does not say how long it has gone on precisely, it suggest it has gone on for some time now.

Don't misunderstand, it is not that I don't think he fell to the planet, simply that there is nothing that tells or showed s he did. Finding armor might give us reason to believe that is the case, but it does not prove anything other than the helmet fell to the planet at some point in the last 2 years. Like it or not, you are inventing narrative when you say he fell to the planet.

Kidnapping humans in no way = starting to process them right away. We have no idea, pure and simple. Say that it suggest something is literally no different than what people are accusing me of doing.

[squee913]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

squee913 wrote...

I think it is weird that a lot of you criticize us for "Making up narrative" when the people who cry plot hole make up narrative when ever they want.

Shepard fell to the planet!!
Really? I don't remember seeing or hearing about that. Last I saw he was floating away in space (might have been burning in an atmosphere might not)

If he didn't fall to the planet, how did his helmet get there? 

Good question! Did the story ever tell us? No? Then anything you suggest is inventing narrative. My point is not that that is a bad thing, only that both sides do it.