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[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

xboxlivegamer wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

xboxlivegamer wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

xboxlivegamer wrote...

Smudboy was an idiot. I disagree with him on almost all his points. He never once offered a point on how to make Mass Effect 2 a better game overall...

Yes, he should have done a series called Fixing Mass Effect or something. 

You clearly didn't bother reading a single word passed that. Most of what he suggest as improvements were based on his own opinion and not something practical that would actually make the game better.

I disagree.  I didn't like all of his ideas, but I thought some of them were clever and could have helped patch some of the more egregious plot holes, and were entirely practical (like making the beacons important and thus Shepard important because of his unique ability to understand Prothean.)

Since when has the beacon not been important?

It wasn't important at all in ME2. 

[Anacronian Stryx]

xboxlivegamer wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

xboxlivegamer wrote...

Smudboy was an idiot. I disagree with him on almost all his points. He never once offered a point on how to make Mass Effect 2 a better game overall...

Yes, he should have done a series called Fixing Mass Effect or something. 

You clearly didn't bother reading a single word passed that. Most of what he suggest as improvements were based on his own opinion and not something practical that would actually make the game better.

How could he ever make a vid that is NOT based on his own opinion?

[Bamboozalist]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

I disagree.  I didn't like all of his ideas, but I thought some of them were clever and could have helped patch some of the more egregious plot holes, and were entirely practical (like making the beacons important and thus Shepard important because of his unique ability to understand Prothean.)

Shepard already was important, the entire squad was there for Shepard. One of the reasons I don't get too angry with the lack of banter and isolated party in ME2 is that they're never really supposed to be a crew, they're there for Shepard and their own personal reasons, yes Garrus and Tali + Jacob and Miranda are comrades but that's about it.

Smudboy's main problem is he thinks that the PC's personality should function like a written character in the narrative, grow, have conflict, and all that. If this was a movie or a straight shooter game than he'd be right, having a protagonist that doesn't change in this type of story working under these cliches and tropes is boring. However this is an RPG, by Bioware establishing Shepard's personality and conflicts it completely destroys what an RPG is, all that is the player's job. The player actually has to ROLE PLAY, either as an extension of their own personality or as a seperate character that they are shaping.

[Iakus]

Bamboozalist wrote...

ME2 was about getting attached to your squad, as of right now we don't know if ME2 was pointless because we don't know what's going to happen to that squad in ME3.

If your entire squad gets killed off or cameod = ME2 is pointless
If the squad comes back either as your squad or as a meaningful part of the story to where that connection can be built upon = ME2 was not pointless.

Of course, I didn't really get attatched to most of the characters in ME 2, since they had so little to do with anything outside their own little arcs.  But that's just me.

[Bamboozalist]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

It wasn't important at all in ME2. 

WHY WOULD IT BE? Did you even play ME1? You already found the conduit, what purpose would the beacons serve now? To let you know how hard the Protheans got raped? You already got everything you could from the Protheans that could help you against the Reapers.

What is Shepard going to do? Go up to the council with the Beacon and tell them to use it and just trust him/her about what the vision means because he/she can speak Prothean?

[Almostfaceman]

iakus wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Is it impossible (and I'm not being snarky) that the suit Shepard is wearing has air brake technology, like parachutes?  I don't think it is.  That the helmet is intact and not burned to little bits (ditto for Shepard) tells us the fall was slow enough for him not to burn up.

Given the ther stuff Shepard's armor is supposed to have in it, I am willing to go along with the possibility that there was some gizmo in there or other that allowed his body to still be (mostly) intact when the planet smacked into him.  It's a stretch, but I can hold my nose and go along with it for the sake of moving the story along.

Restoring his mind is another story.  Reassembling a brain, the condition of his corpse kinda fades into the background against that.

Well, this isn't going to change anyone's mind about anything but I can think of one way that is "plausible" for Shepard's brain to survive to the point where "we think" it's recoverable.

I already mentioned the emergency parachute system being a possibility.  If we take into account sophisticated substances like omnigel and medigel, it's not totally crazy to imagine that the suit could have a system that injects a body with a vitrification substance if the body is exposed to outer space cold.  This would assist in preserving tissues from destruction by freezing.

[Bamboozalist]

iakus wrote...

Of course, I didn't really get attatched to most of the characters in ME 2, since they had so little to do with anything outside their own little arcs.  But that's just me.

I don't really like Citizen Kane but I still understand what it did and why it was revolutionary and while I think it hasn't aged well I can still objectively look at it and understand what it did and why it had/still has an impact.

[squee913]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

I think that this comes simpel desire, People like the game so they want it to be important.

Take The Empire Strikes Back, This much beloved sequel does almost nothing to move the overall plot(Overthrowing the Empire) except Luke acquire training from Yoda, Plot Wise it could be almost completely removed from the trilogy though it would be rare to find anybody who thinks that it's not "important". 

?  TESC has a ton of stuff integral to the plot of the series.  Not just Luke's training to be a Jedi, but his first confrontation with Vader; the first hint that Vader is not just a stooge for the Emperor; Leia and Han's relationship; the increasing grip that the Empire is trying to excise on planets and their reactions; etc.

Wait wait... so TESC was mostly about Character Development instead of the over all plot? Jee that kind of reminds me of Mass Effect 2.....

[xboxlivegamer]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

xboxlivegamer wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

xboxlivegamer wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

xboxlivegamer wrote...

Smudboy was an idiot. I disagree with him on almost all his points. He never once offered a point on how to make Mass Effect 2 a better game overall...

Yes, he should have done a series called Fixing Mass Effect or something. 

You clearly didn't bother reading a single word passed that. Most of what he suggest as improvements were based on his own opinion and not something practical that would actually make the game better.

I disagree.  I didn't like all of his ideas, but I thought some of them were clever and could have helped patch some of the more egregious plot holes, and were entirely practical (like making the beacons important and thus Shepard important because of his unique ability to understand Prothean.)

Since when has the beacon not been important?

It wasn't important at all in ME2. 

Why would the beacon be necessary again? It's already transfered an understanding of the Prothean language and the vision into Shepard's head.

[Almostfaceman]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...


Is it impossible (and I'm not being snarky) that the suit Shepard is wearing has air brake technology, like parachutes?  I don't think it is.  That the helmet is intact and not burned to little bits (ditto for Shepard) tells us the fall was slow enough for him not to burn up.

It's not impossible, But the game never tells us that anything like that nor does it ever show us such tech being used in similar circumstances or ever reference such tech is the norm. 

And no this is not a "every little detail must be explained" - But when a story's protagonist gets dropped from outer space and into a planet Players/Audience/Readers wants to know how he didn't get burned to little bits, It is a obvious question to ask and it is the storytellers job to explain it.

Imagine this, If Titanic was a fictional story and you saw the film, Suddenly the ship starts sinking, You don't see the ship hitting the iceberg and nobody explains that it did... it just sinks, Wouldn't you be confused?   

Probably the mitigating factor for me is that Mass Effect is not a movie like Titanic.  In both games, I see my squadmates "die" repeatedly and I "resurrect" them with medigel.  Heck, I can do something stupid, and Shepard can die, and I load the game and Shepard is alive again. For some this is a distinct game mechanic.  For me, it colors the story and this probably is why I don't have as much of a problem with the Resurrection of Shepards as some others have.  I make up little reasons in my head for the medi-gel to work - so I do it again when I see Shepard fall to a planet from orbit.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

xboxlivegamer wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

xboxlivegamer wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

xboxlivegamer wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

xboxlivegamer wrote...

Smudboy was an idiot. I disagree with him on almost all his points. He never once offered a point on how to make Mass Effect 2 a better game overall...

Yes, he should have done a series called Fixing Mass Effect or something. 

You clearly didn't bother reading a single word passed that. Most of what he suggest as improvements were based on his own opinion and not something practical that would actually make the game better.

I disagree.  I didn't like all of his ideas, but I thought some of them were clever and could have helped patch some of the more egregious plot holes, and were entirely practical (like making the beacons important and thus Shepard important because of his unique ability to understand Prothean.)

Since when has the beacon not been important?

It wasn't important at all in ME2. 

Why would the beacon be necessary again? It's already transfered an understanding of the Prothean language and the vision into Shepard's head.

*sigh*  Smudboy, during his Fixing Mass Effect series, talks about an idea of having more beacons which may have important information on the Reapers, how to fight them, etc.  Shepard, being the only person who has the Prothean "mind", is critical because he and only he can understand the signal in the beacons.

I was saying that this was a good idea, contrasting it with ME2 where Shepard's ability to understand Prothean - which made him unique in ME1 - wasn't important at all.

[Bamboozalist]

squee913 wrote...

Wait wait... so TESC was mostly about Character Development instead of the over all plot? Jee that kind of reminds me of Mass Effect 2.....

NO! STOP IT! MASS EFFECT 2 MUST BE EXACTLY LIKE MASS EFFECT 1 JUST MORE POLISHED! WE MUST GO TO 4 PLOT WORLDS! WE MUST SAVE THE ENTIRE GALAXY AND THE END OF THE GAME BECAUSE I WANT TO FEEL IMPORTANT! IT'S NOT EPIC! IT NEEDS TO BE EPIC! CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT? I DIDN'T LIKE THE CHARACTERS ANYWAY! MASS EFFECT 2 KILLED MY CHILDREN, IT'S HITLER!

[Anacronian Stryx]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Probably the mitigating factor for me is that Mass Effect is not a movie like Titanic.  In both games, I see my squadmates "die" repeatedly and I "resurrect" them with medigel.  Heck, I can do something stupid, and Shepard can die, and I load the game and Shepard is alive again. For some this is a distinct game mechanic.  For me, it colors the story and this probably is why I don't have as much of a problem with the Resurrection of Shepards as some others have.  I make up little reasons in my head for the medi-gel to work - so I do it again when I see Shepard fall to a planet from orbit.

If that's your take on the situation don't you get confused over the fact that Project Lazarus was even necessary?

[Iakus]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Shepard already was important, the entire squad was there for Shepard. One of the reasons I don't get too angry with the lack of banter and isolated party in ME2 is that they're never really supposed to be a crew, they're there for Shepard and their own personal reasons, yes Garrus and Tali + Jacob and Miranda are comrades but that's about it.

On board, you have: a justicar along with:

a vigilante
an assassin
a wanted criminal
a thief
a mercenary
Yet says nothing about them, or to them, doesn't respond to any deplorable acts performed by then or you, even after telling you she while she will obey, she will make her feelings on the matter known to you

you have a mentally unstable, incredibly powerful biotic with a muderous grudge against Cerberus, yet there's only one confrontation with Miranda, and that's all?

You have a scientist with an interest and  a working knowledge of Collector technology, who shows no interest in the genetically engineered krogan made from Collector tech.  Let alone the genetically engineered "perfect human" as well as Shepard himself, brought back from teh dead with unknown technology.

You have a quarian on board a ship with an AI on board.  That by itself should have caused comment.  But then you can bring on board and activate a geth!  And you get...one arguement..

Yo uhave two friends from ME 1 who show remarkably little interest in Shepard's return and little more interest in the fact that they have found themselves working for Cerberus.  Well, unless you do their loyalty missions.  Then they want to sleep with you.

These are not characters.  These are character concepts, existing in a vacuum.  They touch nothing, and nothing touches them.  They might as well have all been DLC characters for all the impact they had.  The only exception is Mordin.  He is necessary fro the anti seeker swarm technology. 

[Bamboozalist]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

*sigh*  Smudboy, during his Fixing Mass Effect series, talks about an idea of having more beacons which may have important information on the Reapers, how to fight them, etc.

Neither him nor you seemed to pay attention during ME1, what information would the protheans have? They got their asses completely handed to them, the Reaper sneak attack completely wiped out their government and military structure. The only thing they could do was to pass their knowledge on to help future races WHICH THEY DID IN ME1, they have nothing more to teach us. It's like going to a toddler for advice on how to beat a Main Battle Tank.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

squee913 wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

I think that this comes simpel desire, People like the game so they want it to be important.

Take The Empire Strikes Back, This much beloved sequel does almost nothing to move the overall plot(Overthrowing the Empire) except Luke acquire training from Yoda, Plot Wise it could be almost completely removed from the trilogy though it would be rare to find anybody who thinks that it's not "important". 

?  TESC has a ton of stuff integral to the plot of the series.  Not just Luke's training to be a Jedi, but his first confrontation with Vader; the first hint that Vader is not just a stooge for the Emperor; Leia and Han's relationship; the increasing grip that the Empire is trying to excise on planets and their reactions; etc.

Wait wait... so TESC was mostly about Character Development instead of the over all plot? Jee that kind of reminds me of Mass Effect 2.....

Er, several of the things I pointed out about TESC are distinctly plot oriented.  Like Vader saying he wants to overthrow the Emperor and have Luke be second-in-command, which sets up the scene in the Death Star in ROTJ.  Or the Empire's grip and how planets are increasingly rebelling, which sets up the pretty large Rebel fleet in ROTJ. 

[Almostfaceman]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Probably the mitigating factor for me is that Mass Effect is not a movie like Titanic.  In both games, I see my squadmates "die" repeatedly and I "resurrect" them with medigel.  Heck, I can do something stupid, and Shepard can die, and I load the game and Shepard is alive again. For some this is a distinct game mechanic.  For me, it colors the story and this probably is why I don't have as much of a problem with the Resurrection of Shepards as some others have.  I make up little reasons in my head for the medi-gel to work - so I do it again when I see Shepard fall to a planet from orbit.

If that's your take on the situation don't you get confused over the fact that Project Lazarus was even necessary?

Nah, project Lazarus is just Medigel On Steroids because Shepard is not just Slightly Dead he's Mostly Dead.

Miracle Max: See, there's a big difference between mostly dead, and all dead. Now, mostly dead: he's slightly alive. All dead: well, with all dead, there's usually only one thing that you can do.
Inigo: What's that?
Miracle Max: Go through his clothes and look for loose change.

[Bamboozalist]

iakus wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

Shepard already was important, the entire squad was there for Shepard. One of the reasons I don't get too angry with the lack of banter and isolated party in ME2 is that they're never really supposed to be a crew, they're there for Shepard and their own personal reasons, yes Garrus and Tali + Jacob and Miranda are comrades but that's about it.

Yo uhave two friends from ME 1 who show remarkably little interest in Shepard's return and little more interest in the fact that they have found themselves working for Cerberus.  Well, unless you do their loyalty missions.  Then they want to sleep with you.

These are not characters.  These are character concepts, existing in a vacuum.  They touch nothing, and nothing touches them.  They might as well have all been DLC characters for all the impact they had.  The only exception is Mordin.  He is necessary fro the anti seeker swarm technology. 

Did you not watch the character introductions when you first recruit them? They all make it perfectly clear they could care less about the rest of the crew, they're there for the mission and Shepard. Many of them have their own personal crap to worry about and could care less. If this was say ME3 and we're introduced to that same steril no interaction crew and asked to believe that these people have been crew mates for a year+ and aren't interacting, I'd call bull****, but in ME2 while I would have loved to have banter, I don't mind why they don't really get to gether and have social get gatherings.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Bamboozalist wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

*sigh*  Smudboy, during his Fixing Mass Effect series, talks about an idea of having more beacons which may have important information on the Reapers, how to fight them, etc.

Neither him nor you seemed to pay attention during ME1, what information would the protheans have? They got their asses completely handed to them, the Reaper sneak attack completely wiped out their government and military structure. The only thing they could do was to pass their knowledge on to help future races WHICH THEY DID IN ME1, they have nothing more to teach us. It's like going to a toddler for advice on how to beat a Main Battle Tank.

I'd like to know how to build a Mass Relay.  It could probably tell us more about how they work, and maybe more about Reaper technology and how to stop them.  I believe the Protheans know how to build one... because they did. 

They were also able to detect Indoctrination (Vigil explicitly mentions that you aren't indoctrinated, meaning it can tell.)  That would also be a useful skill.  Could have come in VERY handy during "Arrival."

[Bamboozalist]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

I'd like to know how to build a Mass Relay.  It could probably tell us more about how they work, and maybe more about Reaper technology and how to stop them.  I believe the Protheans know how to build one... because they did. 

They were also able to detect Indoctrination (Vigil explicitly mentions that you aren't indoctrinated, meaning it can tell.)  That would also be a useful skill.  Could have come in VERY handy during "Arrival."

So instead of making all their beacons contain the same message and warning from the future (which so far they have) they deside to keep a seperate secret beacon with vital information that they didn't put in the normal message? That's retarded. Vigil also mentions that they couldn't figure out who was indocrinated until it was too late and that is how many of their resistance pockets were found by the Reapers.

Also in case you haven't noticed Vigil isn't the only one who notices indocrination, there is the digsite where the scientist killed all his co-workers because they started to get indocrinated and the indocrinated people you come across show pretty heavy signs of being indocrinated. The Reaper Artifact probably purposely released it's hold over the science team in Arrival to lure Shepard there so that he/she wouldn't notice they just rescued a raving lunatic talking about how great the Reapers were.

Modifié par Bamboozalist, 04 avril 2011 - 04:49 .

[Iakus]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Did you not watch the character introductions when you first recruit them? They all make it perfectly clear they could care less about the rest of the crew, they're there for the mission and Shepard. Many of them have their own personal crap to worry about and could care less. If this was say ME3 and we're introduced to that same steril no interaction crew and asked to believe that these people have been crew mates for a year+ and aren't interacting, I'd call bull****, but in ME2 while I would have loved to have banter, I don't mind why they don't really get to gether and have social get gatherings.

Yes, and I questioned how in the world these people are going to function as a team and watch each others' backs on a mission into the unknown, where there is no one to trust but each other.

Getting them to trust each other as well as Shepard, integrating them into a single unit, I got the impression that this was what ME 2 was supposed to be about.  Shepard as Leader.  Not Shepard as Errand Boy For His Own Crew.

And that's beside the fact that having them interact with each other at some level would have actually added some depth to the game.

Thus I find myself having a really hard time feeling anything but idle curiosity what role, if any, most of the team will play in ME 3. 

[squee913]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Er, several of the things I pointed out about TESC are distinctly plot oriented.  Like Vader saying he wants to overthrow the Emperor and have Luke be second-in-command, which sets up the scene in the Death Star in ROTJ.  Or the Empire's grip and how planets are increasingly rebelling, which sets up the pretty large Rebel fleet in ROTJ. 

What? First of all, the scene in the death star in ROTJ had nothing to do with Vader's offer. At no time was it mentioned, or did Vader say ok... that offer is still on the table. He was the Emperor's puppet all the way to the end when he say his son getting killed. Telling Luke to join him in TESB had no effect what so ever on the next movie. All it did was tell you a little about how Vader thinks... or character development.

As for the other, the only way that would hold water is if they somehow mentioned that part of the fleet was made up of people from Bespin who were sick of empire control. The only effect that the Empires take over of Bespin had on the next movie was Lando Switching sides... Which is another Character development.

[Bamboozalist]

iakus wrote...

Yes, and I questioned how in the world these people are going to function as a team and watch each others' backs on a mission into the unknown, where there is no one to trust but each other.

Most real life combat units don't function like that, despite the term "band of brothers" outside of combat most of the time they don't even like each other. I think a "I don't like you, you don't like me, I'm here for Shepard stay out of my way and watch my back in combat" scene would have helped but them not being Hogan's Heroes didn't completely ruin my immersion. In fact from a writting stand-point I think if the ME2 squad comes back in ME3 as your squad it might be beneficial this way because ME2 was about Shepard getting to know them and ME3 since most of their personal issues are dealt with writing wise they can focus on squad on squad interaction since we wouldn't have to learn everything about these characters again, but we still could go deeper into their personality and problems (Garrus' f-ed family life...ectera).

[Iakus]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Most real life combat units don't function like that, despite the term "band of brothers" outside of combat most of the time they don't even like each other. I think a "I don't like you, you don't like me, I'm here for Shepard stay out of my way and watch my back in combat" scene would have helped but them not being Hogan's Heroes didn't completely ruin my immersion. In fact from a writting stand-point I think if the ME2 squad comes back in ME3 as your squad it might be beneficial this way because ME2 was about Shepard getting to know them and ME3 since most of their personal issues are dealt with writing wise they can focus on squad on squad interaction since we wouldn't have to learn everything about these characters again, but we still could go deeper into their personality and problems (Garrus' f-ed family life...ectera).

I'm not talking about "like' I'm talking about "trust"  Miranda and Jack are both there for Shepard.  They both trust him.  But is Miranda going to trust Jack to watch her back in a firefight?  Can she trust that Jack won't "accidentally" let something happen to her?  Can Samara trust Zaeed?  Can anyone trust Grunt?  I'm pretty sure Smudboy had a section on this.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

squee913 wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Er, several of the things I pointed out about TESC are distinctly plot oriented.  Like Vader saying he wants to overthrow the Emperor and have Luke be second-in-command, which sets up the scene in the Death Star in ROTJ.  Or the Empire's grip and how planets are increasingly rebelling, which sets up the pretty large Rebel fleet in ROTJ. 

What? First of all, the scene in the death star in ROTJ had nothing to do with Vader's offer. At no time was it mentioned, or did Vader say ok... that offer is still on the table. He was the Emperor's puppet all the way to the end when he say his son getting killed. Telling Luke to join him in TESB had no effect what so ever on the next movie. All it did was tell you a little about how Vader thinks... or character development.

As for the other, the only way that would hold water is if they somehow mentioned that part of the fleet was made up of people from Bespin who were sick of empire control. The only effect that the Empires take over of Bespin had on the next movie was Lando Switching sides... Which is another Character development.

The scene in ROTJ had very much to do with Vader's offer - his offer showed that he wasn't entirely loyal to the Emperor and would have been willing to overthrow him, and that he wanted to re-unite and rule with his son.  It set up Vader for picking up the Emperor and tossing him down the shaft.  It was important foreshadowing.

While ROTJ didn't mention that there were, er, Bespinites as part of the Rebel fleet, we definitely do see the increased size of the Rebel fleet, which went from some assorted fighters in ANH to a smaller fleet - one that could certainly not take on the Imperial Fleet - in TESC to an entire armada in ROTJ.  Showing Vader reneging on his promises to Lando - with the implication that this is not the first time the Empire has done this - helps show why the Rebel fleet has grown so much by the events of ROTJ.