1198 réponses à ce sujet

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Almostfaceman wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

piemanz wrote...

JKoopman wrote...


I'm not saying that his body could not be found intact. I'm saying that no explanation is provided in the narrative for Shepard's body inexplicably being found intact. I'm not saying that Shepard's body didn't survive intact. I'm saying that logically it should not have. Without any data to suggest or explain otherwise, we can only assume that A should naturally lead into B and Shepard's body should've burned up on reentry. The fact that it apparently did not is an inexplicable event forming a gap in the narrative, which is the very definition of a plothole. It leaves us with no other recourse but to assume that a [space] wizard did it.

I'm not against there being a possible explanation for these events. I'm arguing that, if there is an explanation for them, then it needs to be explicitly implied or referrenced in the narrative, not invented by the audience. The later is bad writing. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept for people to grasp.

The thing is it's not a plot hole.

You're assuming he will burn up in the atmosphere and crash to the ground and get splattered, based on the assumption he's falling to earth or a planet like earth.When the narative indicates nothing like that.Therefore you have to create narative to formulate a plot hole.

The codex entry for Alchera says it has a surface gravity of 0.85g compared to earths 1.0g, .That alone tells us he's going to be crashing to the planet slower than he would if he had crashed to earth.

It's atmospheric density is also much lower than Earths, so theres less chance he/she will burn up.Not to mention the fact we  know he's wearing a state of the art suit, from the future.

The planet may have a lower surface gravity - not that much lower - but it's still going to cause massive hurt.  Go check out the calculator I posted before and see what the terminal gravity would have been for (say) Mars, which has a very thin atmosphere and an even lower gravity than Alchera.  You're still talking about thousands of feet per second. 

A state of the art suit isn't going to help much if you are going from 4000 fps to 0. 

Again, parachutes. 

See, you were able to patch up a plot hole in ME2.  Send them a resume please!

[Mister Ford]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

The planet may have a lower surface gravity - not that much lower - but it's still going to cause massive hurt.  Go check out the calculator I posted before and see what the terminal gravity would have been for (say) Mars, which has a very thin atmosphere and an even lower gravity than Alchera.  You're still talking about thousands of feet per second. 

A state of the art suit isn't going to help much if you are going from 4000 fps to 0. 

Do we definitely know that Shepard's body was recoverd from the surface of Alchera?  Is it possible he ended up in orbit around the planet as space debris?

Beyond that, is it too hard to say that whatever happened, Shepard's body was intact enough to be recovered, and Cerberus had the technology to bring him back?  Do we really need a step by step explanation complete with the precise method and technology used to bring him back? 

Apparently this ruined the game for some people, which I find kinda sad.  Personally, not knowing exactly what happened in no way detracted from my enjoyment of the game -- (and here is the part where someone says they have higher standards than I do, i.e, they are smarter than I am.)

[Whatever42]

I doubt Sheppard was going 4000 feet per second. The reason you would hit Mars so hard is because even though your acceleration would be significantly less, you would have almost no breaking from the atmo. Alchera seems to have .83 earth atmospheres pressure while Mars has a trace atmosphere.

And that Kittenger's record of 614 mph was at high altitude and was him trying to go fast. As Shepard decended through the atmosphere, it would have significantly decelerated him by that point. A sky diver deliberately trying to dive fast through the lower atmo is maybe going 300 mph. Assuming Shepard hit at that speed, he's still dead, of course but with a little luck - winds, hitting the slope of a mountain (there were mountains there) - then its far from impossible that his body survived intact.

Or parachutes.

[Whatever42]

Mister Ford wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

The planet may have a lower surface gravity - not that much lower - but it's still going to cause massive hurt.  Go check out the calculator I posted before and see what the terminal gravity would have been for (say) Mars, which has a very thin atmosphere and an even lower gravity than Alchera.  You're still talking about thousands of feet per second. 

A state of the art suit isn't going to help much if you are going from 4000 fps to 0. 

Do we definitely know that Shepard's body was recoverd from the surface of Alchera?  Is it possible he ended up in orbit around the planet as space debris?

Beyond that, is it too hard to say that whatever happened, Shepard's body was intact enough to be recovered, and Cerberus had the technology to bring him back?  Do we really need a step by step explanation complete with the precise method and technology used to bring him back? 

Apparently this ruined the game for some people, which I find kinda sad.  Personally, not knowing exactly what happened in no way detracted from my enjoyment of the game -- (and here is the part where someone says they have higher standards than I do, i.e, they are smarter than I am.)

Oh, I doubt this ruined the game for people. As I said, I think people didn't like the story so they started nitpicking it.
Well, its possible that he was in orbit, if he was thrown fast enough (which would also account for his broken bones). Or its also possible that he hit the atmosphere going at too shallow an angle and too fast and bounced off. But his helmet was found on the planet at the crash site, which is a bit of a sticking point.

Actually, they do explain a lot of how he was brought back at the beginning - it actually raises a lot of questions. If Shepard's neural pathways were restored with bio-synthetic fusion, where did that come from and what does that mean Shepard is? Frankly, it would be nice to have those questions answered.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Mister Ford wrote...

Do we definitely know that Shepard's body was recoverd from the surface of Alchera?  Is it possible he ended up in orbit around the planet as space debris?

This was discussed a few pages ago.  His helmet was on the planet, as was part of his body armor (Legion's piece.)  We last see Shepard falling towards the planet. 

Apparently this ruined the game for some people, which I find kinda sad.  Personally, not knowing exactly what happened in no way detracted from my enjoyment of the game -- (and here is the part where someone says they have higher standards than I do, i.e, they are smarter than I am.)

THIS didn't.  Not having a reason for the Collectors to be building a Human Reaper - made me realize that the writers just put "cool stuff in" and didn't bother thinking through the plot.

[Iakus]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Apparently this ruined the game for some people, which I find kinda sad.  Personally, not knowing exactly what happened in no way detracted from my enjoyment of the game -- (and here is the part where someone says they have higher standards than I do, i.e, they are smarter than I am.)

THIS didn't.  Not having a reason for the Collectors to be building a Human Reaper - made me realize that the writers just put "cool stuff in" and didn't bother thinking through the plot.

Yeah, the unquenchable thirst for Awesome.  Definitely had a cumulative effect on the game.

[100k]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Mister Ford wrote...

Do we definitely know that Shepard's body was recoverd from the surface of Alchera?  Is it possible he ended up in orbit around the planet as space debris?

This was discussed a few pages ago.  His helmet was on the planet, as was part of his body armor (Legion's piece.)  We last see Shepard falling towards the planet. 

Apparently this ruined the game for some people, which I find kinda sad.  Personally, not knowing exactly what happened in no way detracted from my enjoyment of the game -- (and here is the part where someone says they have higher standards than I do, i.e, they are smarter than I am.)

THIS didn't.  Not having a reason for the Collectors to be building a Human Reaper - made me realize that the writers just put "cool stuff in" and didn't bother thinking through the plot.

Is it possible that, as Shepard fell, (probably long dead before hitting the ground) that Shepard's body got temporarily stuck to a piece of the Normandy, which was falling with him? We know that Shep landed somewhere near the Normandy sight. We know that, some how, his/her helmet was removed, and his/her chest plate, and back plate were cracked open (Legion having the chest plate, Liara having the back plate). Maybe Shep was grafted to a piece of the SR1's hull, which was light enough that it slowed the fall considerably. Couple that with the planet likely having up to 10 feet of snow during a stormy season, and Shepard's body might have come out fairly well, all things considered. Meat and tubes is better than a big fragmented bloody stain, with all of the body's main bits blasted into dust.

[Mister Ford]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Mister Ford wrote...

Do we definitely know that Shepard's body was recoverd from the surface of Alchera?  Is it possible he ended up in orbit around the planet as space debris?

This was discussed a few pages ago.  His helmet was on the planet, as was part of his body armor (Legion's piece.)  We last see Shepard falling towards the planet. 

Apparently this ruined the game for some people, which I find kinda sad.  Personally, not knowing exactly what happened in no way detracted from my enjoyment of the game -- (and here is the part where someone says they have higher standards than I do, i.e, they are smarter than I am.)

THIS didn't.  Not having a reason for the Collectors to be building a Human Reaper - made me realize that the writers just put "cool stuff in" and didn't bother thinking through the plot.

lol, having questions about Shepard's death is understandable, I'm sure just about everyone who played the game had questions, and it would have been nice to have some explanations.  But I'm failing to understand why you feel the reasoning behind building a human reaper is so integral to the plot.  Name a reason why the Reapers WOULDN'T want to build a new one.  There's no reason for them not to.  But there is absolutely nothing to suggest it is a vital part of their plans, or that it is even a top priority.  More like something they can do while they're on their way back to the galaxy.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

100k wrote...
Is it possible that, as Shepard fell, (probably long dead before hitting the ground) that Shepard's body got temporarily stuck to a piece of the Normandy, which was falling with him? We know that Shep landed somewhere near the Normandy sight. We know that, some how, his/her helmet was removed, and his/her chest plate, and back plate were cracked open (Legion having the chest plate, Liara having the back plate). Maybe Shep was grafted to a piece of the SR1's hull, which was light enough that it slowed the fall considerably. Couple that with the planet likely having up to 10 feet of snow during a stormy season, and Shepard's body might have come out fairly well, all things considered. Meat and tubes is better than a big fragmented bloody stain, with all of the body's main bits blasted into dust.

I think I see what you are getting at, but I'm not sure how Shepard being attached to the hull would help him.  The hull would still be pretty heavy, and even if you think that the surface area would increase wind resistance and slow him down, it's not going to help that much. 

On the snow - that's probably the most plausible explanation for how his body could have survived (absent a parachute or something else we haven't been told about.)  It would seem like powder (assuming it is nice stuff like we see at Whistler) would be better than the rock-hard stuff, but even if it was fresh, a body going that fast is going to get seriously damaged.  You're still talking about going from several thousand feet/second to zero in the space of ten feet, that's going to turn a body into goo.  Heck, it seems like many of my co-workers who engage in snow sports end up getting hurt during the ski season, and that is with protection and just falling off their snowboard.  I can't imagine what falling from orbit would do.  But that may be what the ME writers wanted us to believe (considering the crates that somehow survived the fall intact...)

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Mister Ford wrote...
lol, having questions about Shepard's death is understandable, I'm sure just about everyone who played the game had questions, and it would have been nice to have some explanations.  But I'm failing to understand why you feel the reasoning behind building a human reaper is so integral to the plot.

It's why the Collectors started kidnapping hundreds of thousands of people.  It's a major reason why Cerberus decided to resurrect Shepard, and it's in fact his primary mission to discover why colonies were disappearing.  It's the whole point of playing the game - "stop the collectors."

In ME1, I don't have these questions.  I know what Soveriegn was trying to do by attacking the Citadel - activate the Mass Relay in Dark Space and start Reaping. 

Ignoring all other questions about the practicality of the HR, what were they planning to do with it, when we were able to destroy Sovereign - a full-grown reaper - PLUS a Geth fleet that appears considerably stronger than the one Collector ship - back in ME1? 

An extra Reaper when you've got a few hundred or so on the way... not sure I get that.

Name a reason why the Reapers WOULDN'T want to build a new one.  There's no reason for them not to.  But there is absolutely nothing to suggest it is a vital part of their plans, or that it is even a top priority.  More like something they can do while they're on their way back to the galaxy.

The point is that the writers should tell us why they would.  If it's "we want a spare reaper to guard the relay in Arrival to make sure our fleet can use the secondary relay" - then tell us.  Otherwise it just looks like the writers decided that they needed a boss.

[JKoopman]

Mister Ford wrote...

Apparently this ruined the game for some people, which I find kinda sad.  Personally, not knowing exactly what happened in no way detracted from my enjoyment of the game -- (and here is the part where someone says they have higher standards than I do, i.e, they are smarter than I am.)

Did Shepard's death and resurrection ruin the game? No. Did Shepard's blatant Cerberus railroading ruin the game? No. Did the VS's reaction towards Shepard on Horizon ruin the game? No. Did the disconnected individual side-stories of your squad ruin the game? No. Did the contrived way the Normandy crew was abducted ruin the game? No. Did the conveniently coincidental way the suicide mission played out ruin the game? No. Did the complete lack of exposition and sheer ridiculousness of the Human Reaper ruin the game? ...That's a tough one.

The point is, none of those things--big or small--really ruined the game on their own. I probably could've shrugged off one or two of them individually. But when you pile them all together, yes, it's rather hard to take the story seriously.

[Nightwriter]

JKoopman wrote...

Mister Ford wrote...

Apparently this ruined the game for some people, which I find kinda sad.  Personally, not knowing exactly what happened in no way detracted from my enjoyment of the game -- (and here is the part where someone says they have higher standards than I do, i.e, they are smarter than I am.)

Did Shepard's death and resurrection ruin the game? No. Did Shepard's blatant Cerberus railroading ruin the game? No. Did the VS's reaction towards Shepard on Horizon ruin the game? No. Did the disconnected individual side-stories of your squad ruin the game? No. Did the contrived way the Normandy crew was abducted ruin the game? No. Did the conveniently coincidental way the suicide mission played out ruin the game? No. Did the complete lack of exposition and sheer ridiculousness of the Human Reaper ruin the game? ...That's a tough one.

The point is, none of those things--big or small--really ruined the game on their own. I probably could've shrugged off one or two of them individually. But when you pile them all together, yes, it's rather hard to take the story seriously.

[CroGamer002]

JKoopman wrote...

Mister Ford wrote...

Apparently this ruined the game for some people, which I find kinda sad.  Personally, not knowing exactly what happened in no way detracted from my enjoyment of the game -- (and here is the part where someone says they have higher standards than I do, i.e, they are smarter than I am.)

Did Shepard's death and resurrection ruin the game? No. Did Shepard's blatant Cerberus railroading ruin the game? No. Did the VS's reaction towards Shepard on Horizon ruin the game? No. Did the disconnected individual side-stories of your squad ruin the game? No. Did the contrived way the Normandy crew was abducted ruin the game? No. Did the conveniently coincidental way the suicide mission played out ruin the game? No. Did the complete lack of exposition and sheer ridiculousness of the Human Reaper ruin the game? ...That's a tough one.

The point is, none of those things--big or small--really ruined the game on their own. I probably could've shrugged off one or two of them individually. But when you pile them all together, yes, it's rather hard to take the story seriously.

A) Why Shepard's death and resurrection bad thing?
Why is railroading to Cerberus bad? It's plot of Mass Effect 2. Shepard worked for Cerberus. You can leave Cerberus by the end of the game if you don't like it.
C) How is VS reaction on Horizon bad thing?
D) How is abduction of Normandy crew contrived?
E) What the hell is coincidental is SM?
ŽNj) How is Human Reaper ridiculous?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

A) It's not
It's not, Shepard has no choice if he wants to save humanity and win against the Reapers
C) It's not, they had mixed emotions and that's how they expressed it, they apologize later so it's all good
D) It's not, I was surprised to see that happen
ZNj) It's not, it explains why collectors are targeting humans instead of... salarians

[JKoopman]

Mesina2 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Mister Ford wrote...

Apparently this ruined the game for some people, which I find kinda sad.  Personally, not knowing exactly what happened in no way detracted from my enjoyment of the game -- (and here is the part where someone says they have higher standards than I do, i.e, they are smarter than I am.)

Did Shepard's death and resurrection ruin the game? No. Did Shepard's blatant Cerberus railroading ruin the game? No. Did the VS's reaction towards Shepard on Horizon ruin the game? No. Did the disconnected individual side-stories of your squad ruin the game? No. Did the contrived way the Normandy crew was abducted ruin the game? No. Did the conveniently coincidental way the suicide mission played out ruin the game? No. Did the complete lack of exposition and sheer ridiculousness of the Human Reaper ruin the game? ...That's a tough one.

The point is, none of those things--big or small--really ruined the game on their own. I probably could've shrugged off one or two of them individually. But when you pile them all together, yes, it's rather hard to take the story seriously.

A) Why Shepard's death and resurrection bad thing?
Why is railroading to Cerberus bad? It's plot of Mass Effect 2. Shepard worked for Cerberus. You can leave Cerberus by the end of the game if you don't like it.
C) How is VS reaction on Horizon bad thing?
D) How is abduction of Normandy crew contrived?
E) What the hell is coincidental is SM?
ŽNj) How is Human Reaper ridiculous?

We're 43 pages into the thread and you ask me this? If you haven't been paying attention up until now, I'm certainly not going to waste my time describing it all again for the umpteenth time.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Mesina2 wrote...

A) Why Shepard's death and resurrection bad thing?
Why is railroading to Cerberus bad? It's plot of Mass Effect 2. Shepard worked for Cerberus. You can leave Cerberus by the end of the game if you don't like it.
C) How is VS reaction on Horizon bad thing?
D) How is abduction of Normandy crew contrived?
E) What the hell is coincidental is SM?
ŽNj) How is Human Reaper ridiculous?

A) Because it's treated as no big deal? Because Shepard just shrugs it off? Because Cerberus just somehow manage to find a cure to death just afterwards? Because how in god's name was the body even recoverable? Because it's cheap and stupid?

True. Althrough sole survivor Shepard should not have a convientent  moment of amnesia regarding Akuze. That Bioware handed idiotballs to the council and alliance as another reason is also silly.

C) Not bad per say. But the scene could have used a rewrite.

D) HEY EVERYONE! LET'S GO ON THIS RANDOM UNIMPORTANT MISSION IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE!

E) I pass that one.

F) It's looks silly  from an aesthetic viewpoint, and I wonder why they did not use the derelict Reaper as a way to foreshadow it. That way, it would not be such a "Lulwut" moment for some people.

[Nightwriter]

Oh, so anyone can respond to the questions? Not just Mister Ford? Okay, I'll take a shot.

A) Because it is ignored.
Because the game fails to create feelings of threat and necessity which make the railroading palatable.
C) Because if the game fails to create feelings of threat and necessity, the entire reason Ashley/Kaidan are arguing with you is meaningless.
D) ^ Already answered.
E) Perhaps it's that everything we prepared for just happened to be necessary in the SM? Idk.
F) ^ Already answered.

[CroGamer002]

Lizardviking wrote...

A) Because it's treated as no big deal? Because Shepard just shrugs it off? Because Cerberus just somehow manage to find a cure to death just afterwards? Because how in god's name was the body even recoverable? Because it's cheap and stupid?

True. Althrough sole survivor Shepard should not have a convientent  moment of amnesia regarding Akuze. That Bioware handed idiotballs to the council and alliance as another reason is also silly.

C) Not bad per say. But the scene could have used a rewrite.

D) HEY EVERYONE! LET'S GO ON THIS RANDOM UNIMPORTANT MISSION IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE!

E) I pass that one.

F) It's looks silly  from an aesthetic viewpoint, and I wonder why they did not use the derelict Reaper as a way to foreshadow it. That way, it would not be such a "Lulwut" moment for some people.

A) It'ss not important to ME2 plot and it is a plot device. Also like squee913 said Cerberus might have doing techniques of Lazarus Project. About Shepard getting his/hers body recoverable? Hmh, people can survive fall over 10 000 meters so what makes you think they couldn't find Shepard's body without being a pancake. Absurd stuff CAN happen.

What amnesia? Also both Council and Alliance underestimated Reapers and so they don't look weak and create panic they lied the whole thing.

C) Yeah, Shepard's lines are terrible. VS is not a problem in that scene.

D) Like it would have been better to make mission just to show us that scene. Besides that scene does not look awkward if you didn't complete every single mission once you get IFF( + 2 mission you do later).

ŽNj) (Use real "letter":devil:) Was foreshadowing really needed?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Mesina2 wrote...

A) It'ss not important to ME2 plot and it is a plot device. Also like squee913 said Cerberus might have doing techniques of Lazarus Project. About Shepard getting his/hers body recoverable? Hmh, people can survive fall over 10 000 meters so what makes you think they couldn't find Shepard's body without being a pancake. Absurd stuff CAN happen.

What amnesia? Also both Council and Alliance underestimated Reapers and so they don't look weak and create panic they lied the whole thing.

C) Yeah, Shepard's lines are terrible. VS is not a problem in that scene.

D) Like it would have been better to make mission just to show us that scene. Besides that scene does not look awkward if you didn't complete every single mission once you get IFF( + 2 mission you do later).

ŽNj) (Use real "letter":devil:) Was foreshadowing really needed?

A) But thats the problem. Death and resurection should be A BIG DEAL, It's almost on par with time travel. Had Shepard's death had some meaning or importance to the story, or led to a scene where he ponders over it and show some emotions, then I would be okay with it. But as it is now? It's just a stupid excuse to jump two years foward, might as well gone with coma instead of death and avoid all the trouble.

Sole survivors amnesia is the fact that he NEVER brings up Akuze to TIM or anyone else, Jacob and Miranda even asked him about the event!!

Also regarding the council and alliance. They believed you in the end of ME1, but in the start of ME2 (before Shepard dies) they apperantly changed their mind off-screen again I suppose and sent Shepard away on some menial task. Even then, I find it hard to believe that nobody bothered to do anything about missing colonist.

D) Why not? Anything is better than "We need you to take every competent fighter on the ship away for an unimportant mission, despite you only ever bringing two along at most".

ÆØå) I don't know. we did travel inside a Reaper, right down to it's eezo core, and it looked nothing like the Human Reaper.

If the game did not tell me that the giant-robo-human was the inner skeletion of a Reaper, I would never have guessed it. Because the two things looks so completely diffrent.

I also guess because the derelict Reaper mission has to be the worst main-plot mission in the series so far, the entire thing just screams "wasted potential". But that's just my opinion.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 05 avril 2011 - 10:47 .

[Iakus]

Mesina2 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

A) Because it's treated as no big deal? Because Shepard just shrugs it off? Because Cerberus just somehow manage to find a cure to death just afterwards? Because how in god's name was the body even recoverable? Because it's cheap and stupid?

True. Althrough sole survivor Shepard should not have a convientent  moment of amnesia regarding Akuze. That Bioware handed idiotballs to the council and alliance as another reason is also silly.

C) Not bad per say. But the scene could have used a rewrite.

D) HEY EVERYONE! LET'S GO ON THIS RANDOM UNIMPORTANT MISSION IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE!

E) I pass that one.

F) It's looks silly  from an aesthetic viewpoint, and I wonder why they did not use the derelict Reaper as a way to foreshadow it. That way, it would not be such a "Lulwut" moment for some people.

A) It'ss not important to ME2 plot and it is a plot device. Also like squee913 said Cerberus might have doing techniques of Lazarus Project. About Shepard getting his/hers body recoverable? Hmh, people can survive fall over 10 000 meters so what makes you think they couldn't find Shepard's body without being a pancake. Absurd stuff CAN happen.

What amnesia? Also both Council and Alliance underestimated Reapers and so they don't look weak and create panic they lied the whole thing.

C) Yeah, Shepard's lines are terrible. VS is not a problem in that scene.

D) Like it would have been better to make mission just to show us that scene. Besides that scene does not look awkward if you didn't complete every single mission once you get IFF( + 2 mission you do later).

ŽNj) (Use real "letter":devil:) Was foreshadowing really needed?

A) Death should never be unimportant.  If you're going to use it as a plot device, be ready to run with it.

  Shepard (Sole Survivor or not) seems to have forgotten that this is Cerberus he's dealing with, Not Professor Frink from the Simpsons.  I am not opposed to Shepard working for them if that's what it takes to save the galaxy, On occassion, even Superman and Lex Luthor find themselves on the same side.  But who they are and what they've done should not be forgotten.

C) A rewrite, an extensive rewrite.  And some followup besides an email-only-if-you're-a LI

D) Show them leaving as you start a mission (even if you've done everything else, you'll still have Legion's LM after getting the IFF).  And Joker's run after.

E)  It was a base.  Not a planet with an armada in orbot over it.  Not a hub to other bases.  Just a base with minimal defenses.  Perfect for a commando team to infiltrate.

F) "What the hell is 'the essence of a species'?"

[Dudeman315]

A) Negative consequence of a suicide mission is death, but in the prologue death is overcome and resurrection is no big deal to anyone not even the resurrected person--It kind of destroys the impact of death and suicide missions. And yes the way the research may have been destroyed(Tim or shadow broker may have back-up data which would make it take less time to replicate), but it is possible so it can be done again because you already know it works so now you are just trying to produce similar results.
D) Hey anyone with combat skills off the ship for a plot device. If they had given us a mini-suicide mission say make the IFF take several squads it could have shown the team learning to work together and a reason to leave the ship. Mine happen at the Omega relay--which made it seem even more out of place. Hey let's go through--oh wait everybody off the ship for a second to hang out by the collector's mass relay in a defenseless shuttle--It's awkwardly timed and bad story telling.

[Almostfaceman]

So, not surprisingly it turns out people have different tastes in video games/video game stories/stories. I'm not seeing how each "side" explaining their position has really changed anyone's minds. I generally only get pissed when one side thinks its opinion is fact - and I'm not really seeing that in this thread.

[Whatever42]

Almostfaceman wrote...

So, not surprisingly it turns out people have different tastes in video games/video game stories/stories. I'm not seeing how each "side" explaining their position has really changed anyone's minds. I generally only get pissed when one side thinks its opinion is fact - and I'm not really seeing that in this thread.

Yeah, pretty much this.

Although I will say this - I have found the deconstruction very interesting, even if I disagree with other people's conclusions or hold different opinions. I've never actually seen a plot dissected in so much detail and its interesting to see everything that goes into it, warts and triumphs alike.

[dreman9999]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

 

THIS didn't.  Not having a reason for the Collectors to be building a Human Reaper - made me realize that the writers just put "cool stuff in" and didn't bother thinking through the plot.

It's not the fact that they where make a reaper out of people thats bad. It was the design of the reaper itself. We told on of the most horrible things then we're shown a giant terminator baby....... That fact that it look like to not onlypush people out of character but almost destoryed the plot. The art team dropped the ball. I we saw something diffent more horrifing then the idea of a reaper baby would befine.

[JKoopman]

Mesina2 wrote...

A) Why Shepard's death and resurrection bad thing?
Why is railroading to Cerberus bad? It's plot of Mass Effect 2. Shepard worked for Cerberus. You can leave Cerberus by the end of the game if you don't like it.
C) How is VS reaction on Horizon bad thing?
D) How is abduction of Normandy crew contrived?
E) What the hell is coincidental is SM?
ŽNj) How is Human Reaper ridiculous?

Okay. Being that I'm feeling a bit more rested now, I'm willing to elaborate.

A) It was bad because it was pointless. The protagonist of a story dying should be a MAJOR PLOT POINT and even moreso if they're then brought back to life, not just some insignificant plot device that's handwaved away and never mentioned again. As it stands, there was no reason for it to happen and nothing came of it besides a plot excuse for why 2 years have passed and Shepard's level and skills have reset. There's no growth or change of Shepard's character because of it, it has no relevance to the plot and it's literally only even mentioned 1 or 2 times beyond the tutorial level and then only in passing. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! Just move on and don't ask questions!" Yes, yes, "Destroying the Normandy showed how badass the Collectors are and that the Reapers were still a threat..." Shepard didn't need to DIE for that. He could've made it into an escape pod but the explosion cripples it as it's launched, knocking out his locator beacon and sending him off into deep space where he drifts for a time in cryo-sleep before being recovered by a Shadow Broker team that holds him in confinement while they broker a deal with the Collectors, only to have a Cerberus team break him out and take him to speak with the Illusive Man. See, I've just come up with a plot in the space of 3 minutes that not only sets up the Collector threat, covers Shepard's 2 year absense and explains his allegiance with Cerberus but also doesn't require a contrived death and resurrection.

There's nothing wrong with Shepard working with Cerberus, but it should be shown to be his choice for a valid reason. Have Shepard go back to the Citadel and Alliance, try to work with them, try to organize an investigation into the colony disappearances. Have him be frustrated when he's blocked at every turn by bureaucracy. Have him go back to Cerberus because he and the player realize that they're the only ones who can get the job done; don't just have Shepard roll with "space-Al-Queda" because TIM says it's the only way. Have Shepard discover it for himself. And even then, when TIM is giving his speeches about how benevolent Cerberus is, give me the option to name-drop Akuze, and Corporal Tombs, and Admiral Kahoku. Give me some real arguments with TIM, not just a few grumbled protestations that amount to nothing more than a bad attitude before Shepard inevitably goes along with whatever TIM says.

C) The fact that they refer to you as the Savior of the Citadel--a literal "God"-- and then fly into some histerical bippolar rant about you being a traitor the instant you mention Cerberus? The fact that they try to claim that Cerberus is behind the colony attacks despite clearly witnessing not 5 minutes earlier the obviously alien Collectors abducting colonists and the Cerberus-allied Shepard rescuing them? The fact that Shepard is railroaded into name-dropping Cerberus within the first 2 sentences of the conversation, and apparently loses all ability to communicate effectively and makes no attempt to explain to the VS why Cerberus isn't the enemy or to share the intel they've uncovered so far and simply ends the conversation abruptly with "Well, I can see you're not going to listen to reason"? The fact that Tali and Garrus join without exception to your ties with Cerberus--and even your engineering team aboard the SR-2 describes how they were formerly Alliance but joined Cerberus because they couldn't stand the way the Alliance was smearing your name and dismissing the Reaper threat--yet the person who was potentially your lover and who fought the Reapers by your side apparently took no issue with the way the Alliance turned it's back on you and actually accuses you of turning your back on the Alliance by accepting Cerberus' aid? The fact that Anderson--who's on the frickin' Council and could have his career ruined by his association with you--invites you to the Citadel, gives you the opportunity to explain yourself and even offers to reinstate your Spectre status, but your former lover can't give you 5 minutes? The fact that all you get by way of explanation after all this is a lousy dear-John email, and then only if you romanced the VS in the previous game?

JKoopman wrote...

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?
VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?
VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?
VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?
VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.
Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...
Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.
Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?
VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.
Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?
VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS: *salutes*
Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turnsto leave*
Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

'Nuff said?

D) "Okay, that 37 million-year-old untested Reaper tech has been installed in the Normandy's systems. Everybody of any worth in combat into the shuttle for an inexplicable and nonexistent mission that apparently requires all 12 squadmates!" "Oh noes! That 37 million-year-old Reaper tech we just installed in our systems was a trap! Inconceivable!" *Collector ship jumps in* "Quickly Joker! You must hobble your crippled body all the way across the ship and through the Normandy's ducts, get to the AI Core and connect my systems so that I can power up the engines before the Collectors destroy us!" "Wait, why can't you have Dr. Chakwas do that? She's stationed right there in the med bay next to the AI Core." "..........No data available."

E) The fact that we spend the entire game collecting a crew of badass soldiers for what all available intel indicates is going to be a spaceship battle in space on account of the only thing we know about the Colectors being that they have a gigantic freakin' cruiser wherein soldiers would be useless and getting a more powerful ship or multiple ships would seem to be the more prudent move. Then, by virtue of dumb luck, we traverse the Omega-4 relay and conveniently discover a base on the other side that suits our crack infiltration team like a glove rather than, say, an entire armada of Collector ships orbiting a homeworld against which our ragtag group of soldiers would be useless. We collect our squad for no other reason than because TIM tells us to, and they're useful for no other reason than because the plot demands it. The success of the suicide mission was either a complete coincidence or TIM can secretly see the future.

F) *pictures a giant bipedal Terminator flying through space like the Iron Giant* Nope, not ridiculous at all. Honestly, where do I start? That the plan was fundamentally flawed from the beginning? "The Collectors are going to target Earth"? WTF? How does one Collector cruiser think it stands any chance of abducting humans from Earth without being destroyed the instant it leaves the Terminus Systems? With the contrived way that the Human Reaper was being constructed? How does melting a group of people into grey goo somehow preserve their consciousness? What is the "essense of a species"? Why are we suddenly being told that the Reapers are semi-organic and use organic species for procreation when up until now they've been machine gods and organics have been "nothing" to them? What possible use is this thing going to be? Is it going to be some new Reaper vanguard? And if so, how is it expected to succeed where Sovereign and an entire geth armada failed? Why does it look like a freakin' Terminator when every other Reaper we've seen shares roughly the same cuttlefish configuration? WTF is up with it being supported by it's own "feeding tubes" that have randomly retracting armor plating? And why doesn't it simply destroy the platforms you're standing on instead of popping up again and again in the same predicatable pattern and shooting to same beams at you while you hide behind the same cover and whittle it down? This thing was the most transparently contrived End Boss Encounter I've seen outside of a Contra game.

Modifié par JKoopman, 05 avril 2011 - 08:16 .