1198 réponses à ce sujet

[Fiery Phoenix]

It should be noted that BioWare has a history of adding dialogue (and sometimes content) no player will ever witness in their games. Just look at the dialogue Legion has during the first recruitment missions. Same goes for Tali, Samara and Thane. In the actual game, you can't recruit these four until after Horizon, yet they are just as talkative and opinionated as anyone else in the beginning missions of the game.

Examples of what I'm talking about:
> Thane and Legion on Jack's Recruitment Mission
> Tali and Legion on Garrus' Recruitment Mission

Note that this isn't cut content; it is actually in-game. You just can't hear it because you get these squadmates later in the game.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 07 avril 2011 - 04:24 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

TO me, party banter adds a third dimension to the characters.  It makes them more lifelike, I care more about what happens to them because...they talk!  without prompting from me!

And I'm not going to question anyone's enjoyment of party banter. I loved it too. I am skeptical however of how much emphasis being placed on (literally) two separate conversations Carth can have with Bastila, among other things. If that's what adds the third dimension to the character, I'd argue that speaks to the weakness of these characters than Bioware's strengths.
 
Again, I notice banter when it happens, not when it isn't happening. On Manaan, my mind is on getting the Star Map, not on why Jolee and Bastila may or may not be discussing the Jedi Code. Apply this to every Bioware game's scenario. The one area where I can see your criticisms having merit is on the loyalty missions themselves.

Ideally a game has both.  Think of the main character conversations as banter with the player.  And to me, Bioware game banter is part of what makes them a cut above any other game developer. 

I'd have to disagree. What makes Bioware a cut above other developers is that it is you (as the character) participating in the conversation, as opposed to treatment as an outsider, in the manner that any other video game, novel, or film might do.

Bioware game banter is nothing special. Banter can be found in every medium. When Legolas and Aragorn talk to each other, it's the equivalent of banter. Same with Luke and Han. And yes, I can see the argument "Well, if every medium features banter, why didn't ME2?"

And while a fair criticism, I still think that you are misjudging what makes the Bioware experience 'unique'. Every story features characters speaking outside of your control. Bioware (and other RPGs) feature characters speaking within your control. That is what sets them apart far more than banter.

Good.  It's supposed to.  Because I've played KOTOR 2 (with and without the restoration mod) and I feel strongly about this concept.  

That you did not enjoy content however does not speak to a game being 'complete'. Iakus, this almost seems an attempt to simply add (yet another) layer to Mass Effect 2 criticisms. Every element we do not like does not suddenly make a game 'unfinished'. I disliked Mass Effect 1's environments, yet this does not suddenly make the game 'unfinished'.

Kotor 2 had an incredible number of ideas present which were not fully implemented, which was clear from the game itself due to how the content was treated. From the HK droid factory to the handling of Master Vash, there was cut content all around. Or even looking at the main game to the ending sequence, or even game bugs.

Characters failing to respond to something that their background explicitly states should be of interest to them reduces attempts to make them characters.  They become more character concepts.  A Cerberus loyalist walking through a facility where the staff may or may not have gone rogue, yet says nothing, detracts from teh personality the game is trying to foster in her.  The genophage has been an aspect of the galaxy for a thousand years.  Some of the longer lived races still remember the Krogan Rebellions.  Now you hold the key to greatly speeding up research to find a cure.  And no one says anything?  How is this supposed to create amazing characters you get to know and love?

Because I (as Commander Shepard) was there when it happened. It was me who recruited Mordin, had conversations with him, learned of his guilt regarding the genophage, etc. My attention is immediately focused on the task at hand.
 
This, in my opinion, is the huge problem with the Mass Effect cast. Getting to know Ashley and Kaidan never goes anywhere. I've seen the argument that they feel 'more real' than any of Mass Effect 2's cast. Yet, I'm still skeptical of this. Real is nice. But if I (almost literally) feel that I can meet a particular character on the street, then why introduce the character in the first place? They are not compelling enough to get to explore.

Why did they even make the three squad member requirement anyway?  The third squaddie might as well have been a security bot.

I would have approved of this, as the Kasumi dlc handles it in this manner.

Modifié par Il Divo, 07 avril 2011 - 02:59 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

Whoops, saw the thread. Thus  I have been ninja'd

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 07 avril 2011 - 04:32 .

[Tamahome560]

Wow this thread has grown quite big. Good job on your videos Squee I would join the debate here but I fear that I will become to consumed by it hehe. Have a good day people.

[JayhartRIC]

I liked ME2, but definitely wish there was more party banter. The Miranda/Jack and Tali/Legion confrontations did a great job of that and I kinda wish there were more of those. OTOH, I heard the cut dialogue of the Mordin/Grunt confrontation on Youtube and found it to be pretty bad. They also seemed to be setting up a Thane/Jacob confrontation that never made sense to me. The only time it really afftected me was on the Suicide Mission where Miranda volunteers to be a team leader and somebody yells out, "Half of us don't even like you!" Nothing ingame demonstrates that except her confrontation with Jack.

[Almostfaceman]

JayhartRIC wrote...

I liked ME2, but definitely wish there was more party banter. The Miranda/Jack and Tali/Legion confrontations did a great job of that and I kinda wish there were more of those. OTOH, I heard the cut dialogue of the Mordin/Grunt confrontation on Youtube and found it to be pretty bad. They also seemed to be setting up a Thane/Jacob confrontation that never made sense to me. The only time it really afftected me was on the Suicide Mission where Miranda volunteers to be a team leader and somebody yells out, "Half of us don't even like you!" Nothing ingame demonstrates that except her confrontation with Jack.

It's Jack who gives Miranda a hard time when it comes to volunteering for a team lead - and Garrus is shaking his head at Jack in the background.

[JKoopman]

So, here's the six-million-dollar question: We're 46 pages into this thread now... has anyone's opinion actually changed? Or is this all just one giant exercise in futility?

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...

So, here's the six-million-dollar question: We're 46 pages into this thread now... has anyone's opinion actually changed? Or is this all just one giant exercise in futility?

I've been of the opinion that this is sorta an excercise in futility, though it is interesting to know how other eyes see the game.  I don't usually argue to change minds anyway.  I mean, you sat down and played the game - and no one can take that experience away from you.  Same with myself.  I didn't go into ME2 promising myself I'd like the game no matter what.  I believe most people experience the game the same way - their opinions are honestly held and are not the product of Bioware brain-washing.

The one thing I don't like about these types of threads is that often they become about the personalities involved - where one side may take offense just because the other side doesn't like "smudboy" or "squee".  That just gets in the way of the looking at the game methinks.

[squee913]

JKoopman wrote...

So, here's the six-million-dollar question: We're 46 pages into this thread now... has anyone's opinion actually changed? Or is this all just one giant exercise in futility?

All depends on what you are trying to get out of this. If you are trying to convince everyone that the plot sucks/rocks... then yes, it was a waste of time. If, on the other hand, you spent hours reading the thoughts and views of others, shared your own, laughed from time to time, and had a good time doing it, then I would say this has been very successful. This thread alone has made the creation of those videos worth it to me!

[CroGamer002]

squee913 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

So, here's the six-million-dollar question: We're 46 pages into this thread now... has anyone's opinion actually changed? Or is this all just one giant exercise in futility?

All depends on what you are trying to get out of this. If you are trying to convince everyone that the plot sucks/rocks... then yes, it was a waste of time. If, on the other hand, you spent hours reading the thoughts and views of others, shared your own, laughed from time to time, and had a good time doing it, then I would say this has been very successful. This thread alone has made the creation of those videos worth it to me!

Nicely put.

[JayhartRIC]

Almostfaceman wrote...

JayhartRIC wrote...

I liked ME2, but definitely wish there was more party banter. The Miranda/Jack and Tali/Legion confrontations did a great job of that and I kinda wish there were more of those. OTOH, I heard the cut dialogue of the Mordin/Grunt confrontation on Youtube and found it to be pretty bad. They also seemed to be setting up a Thane/Jacob confrontation that never made sense to me. The only time it really afftected me was on the Suicide Mission where Miranda volunteers to be a team leader and somebody yells out, "Half of us don't even like you!" Nothing ingame demonstrates that except her confrontation with Jack.

It's Jack who gives Miranda a hard time when it comes to volunteering for a team lead - and Garrus is shaking his head at Jack in the background.

If Jack isn't there, Garrus says it.

[Almostfaceman]

JayhartRIC wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

JayhartRIC wrote...

I liked ME2, but definitely wish there was more party banter. The Miranda/Jack and Tali/Legion confrontations did a great job of that and I kinda wish there were more of those. OTOH, I heard the cut dialogue of the Mordin/Grunt confrontation on Youtube and found it to be pretty bad. They also seemed to be setting up a Thane/Jacob confrontation that never made sense to me. The only time it really afftected me was on the Suicide Mission where Miranda volunteers to be a team leader and somebody yells out, "Half of us don't even like you!" Nothing ingame demonstrates that except her confrontation with Jack.

It's Jack who gives Miranda a hard time when it comes to volunteering for a team lead - and Garrus is shaking his head at Jack in the background.

If Jack isn't there, Garrus says it.

And who is behind Garrus shaking their head?

[Iakus]

[quote]Il Divo wrote...

And I'm not going to question anyone's enjoyment of party banter. I loved it too. I am skeptical however of how much emphasis being placed on (literally) two separate conversations Carth can have with Bastila, among other things. If that's what adds the third dimension to the character, I'd argue that speaks to the weakness of these characters than Bioware's strengths.
 
Again, I notice banter when it happens, not when it isn't happening. On Manaan, my mind is on getting the Star Map, not on why Jolee and Bastila may or may not be discussing the Jedi Code. Apply this to every Bioware game's scenario. The one area where I can see your criticisms having merit is on the loyalty missions themselves. [/quote]

What it adds is dimension.  The characters express an awareness of their surroundings and who they're travelling with.  You only see two conversations with Carth, I see the conversations with Carth, the ones with Canderous, the ones with Jolee, the ones with Mission (the funniest, imo) etc.  It adds up.  Especially if you then go down teh list with Carth, and so on.  The PC is not the center of the universe.  Well, perhaps he/she is, but it adds the illusion that this isnt the case.  If the hwole point of the game is to get to know these characters and "build a team"  Why leave this out completely? 

Again, I'm not talking about Dragon Age levels of interaction.  But when the characters are the whole point of the game, rather than some Star Forge-esque distant goal, well, you'd expect more interaction, not less.  And certainly not nothing

[quote]

I'd have to disagree. What makes Bioware a cut above other developers is that it is you (as the character) participating in the conversation, as opposed to treatment as an outsider, in the manner that any other video game, novel, or film might do.

Bioware game banter is nothing special. Banter can be found in every medium. When Legolas and Aragorn talk to each other, it's the equivalent of banter. Same with Luke and Han. And yes, I can see the argument "Well, if every medium features banter, why didn't ME2?"

And while a fair criticism, I still think that you are misjudging what makes the Bioware experience 'unique'. Every story features characters speaking outside of your control. Bioware (and other RPGs) feature characters speaking within your control. That is what sets them apart far more than banter. [/quote]

I dunno, the participation is very good, but I don't think it's unique.  I always found the NPCs to be exceptionally well done.  They are lifelike, with their own opinions and agendas which need to be taken into account.  Sometimes you can change their mionds, sometimes not.  Sometimes they can interfere with your plans.  And sometimes they can violently interfere.  This level of interaction is distinctly missing from ME 2.  Which makes them a lot less "amazing" than npcs in previous games.

[quote]
Good.  It's supposed to.  Because I've played KOTOR 2 (with and without the restoration mod) and I feel strongly about this concept.   [/quote]

That you did not enjoy content however does not speak to a game being 'complete'. Iakus, this almost seems an attempt to simply add (yet another) layer to Mass Effect 2 criticisms. Every element we do not like does not suddenly make a game 'unfinished'. I disliked Mass Effect 1's environments, yet this does not suddenly make the game 'unfinished'. [/quote]

The fact that I like this concept doesn't make the game seem "unfinished"  Not liking it simply makes the game "not so good" to me.  Example:  Horizon.  The "Unfinished" decription means that there's something going on which I would fully expect a character to say or do something, but simply remains in the background staring blankly into space, since there's nothig to shoot at.  Seeing Miranda going through the Teltin facility saying nothing to justify or condemn the actions that took place there speaks of something left out.  SOmething should be there.  A scene.  A line of dialogue.  I don't know what exactly, but it's missing.

[quote]
Kotor 2 had an incredible number of ideas present which were not fully implemented, which was clear from the game itself due to how the content was treated. From the HK droid factory to the handling of Master Vash, there was cut content all around. Or even looking at the main game to the ending sequence, or even game bugs.
[/quote]

And that's what I see when I look at certain scenes in ME2.  Not all missions, and not all character combinations.  But there are a bunch where I'm almost yelling at my screen "Say something!  You've devoted your life to X cause, and here's a great example of it!"


[quote]

Characters failing to respond to something that their background explicitly states should be of interest to them reduces attempts to make them characters.  They become more character concepts.  A Cerberus loyalist walking through a facility where the staff may or may not have gone rogue, yet says nothing, detracts from teh personality the game is trying to foster in her.  The genophage has been an aspect of the galaxy for a thousand years.  Some of the longer lived races still remember the Krogan Rebellions.  Now you hold the key to greatly speeding up research to find a cure.  And no one says anything?  How is this supposed to create amazing characters you get to know and love? [/quote]

Because I (as Commander Shepard) was there when it happened. It was me who recruited Mordin, had conversations with him, learned of his guilt regarding the genophage, etc. My attention is immediately focused on the task at hand.
 
This, in my opinion, is the huge problem with the Mass Effect cast. Getting to know Ashley and Kaidan never goes anywhere. I've seen the argument that they feel 'more real' than any of Mass Effect 2's cast. Yet, I'm still skeptical of this. Real is nice. But if I (almost literally) feel that I can meet a particular character on the street, then why introduce the character in the first place? They are not compelling enough to get to explore. [/quote]

And the third character, who gets no say in the matter of the genophage data?  How about an asari view on what to do with it?  A turian?  A quarian?  A krogan, for crying out loud!  But they all just stand there blankly.  Because it's not their turn to be amazing yet.

When people say that Ashley and Kaidan are "real" They are referring to the fact that 1) you can actually talk to them about the main plot missions and will offer opinions 2) They are not the "bestest bad****es EVAR!", they are simply exceptional marines with interesting backstories 3) They don't need Shepard to solve their problems.  Well, unless they're caught between a geth army and a nuke I guess   They are ordinary people caught in extraordinary circumstances.  And they rise to the occasion.  And that makes them interesting.  It helps that they voice their opinions on missions too.

[quote]
Why did they even make the three squad member requirement anyway?  The third squaddie might as well have been a security bot.[/quote]

I would have approved of this, as the Kasumi dlc handles it in this manner. [/quote]

And why I think Arrival simply submitted to the inevitable.

[Iakus]

squee913 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

So, here's the six-million-dollar question: We're 46 pages into this thread now... has anyone's opinion actually changed? Or is this all just one giant exercise in futility?

All depends on what you are trying to get out of this. If you are trying to convince everyone that the plot sucks/rocks... then yes, it was a waste of time. If, on the other hand, you spent hours reading the thoughts and views of others, shared your own, laughed from time to time, and had a good time doing it, then I would say this has been very successful. This thread alone has made the creation of those videos worth it to me!

What I'm trying to get out of this is for teh writers and developers to read these opinions, analyses, rants, whatever you want to call them, and to consider them when plotting out their next story.  It remains to be seen if this is an exercise in futility or not.

[Fiery Phoenix]

It seems ME3 has been fully written and done by this point, Iakus.

[Almostfaceman]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

It seems ME3 has been fully written and done by this point, Iakus.

Perhaps, but there are a few dev threads where they're asking our opinions about stuff - like the one asking about what our favorite re-occuring character is - or that audio thread.

But you do have a point.

[Fiery Phoenix]

They can of course make tweaks and rewrites at this point, but nothing too major.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 07 avril 2011 - 08:22 .

[squee913]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

They can of course make tweaks and rewrites at this point, but nothing too major.

Think it's too late to get them to change Harbinger's name to Franky?

[Almostfaceman]

squee913 wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

They can of course make tweaks and rewrites at this point, but nothing too major.

Think it's too late to get them to change Harbinger's name to Franky?

We are the FRANKY of your destruction!

[GuardianAngel470]

JKoopman wrote...

So, here's the six-million-dollar question: We're 46 pages into this thread now... has anyone's opinion actually changed? Or is this all just one giant exercise in futility?

Very few threads aren't an execise in futility. At least, none of the long ones.

[CroGamer002]

squee913 wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

They can of course make tweaks and rewrites at this point, but nothing too major.

Think it's too late to get them to change Harbinger's name to Franky?

He lied about his name!


His real name is Tim!

[Almostfaceman]

Mesina2 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

They can of course make tweaks and rewrites at this point, but nothing too major.

Think it's too late to get them to change Harbinger's name to Franky?

He lied about his name!


His real name is Tim!

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?

Tim: There are some who call me... Tim?

[Il Divo]

Apologies for the delay.

iakus wrote...

What it adds is dimension.  The characters express an awareness of their surroundings and who they're travelling with.  You only see two conversations with Carth, I see the conversations with Carth, the ones with Canderous, the ones with Jolee, the ones with Mission (the funniest, imo) etc.  It adds up.  Especially if you then go down teh list with Carth, and so on.  The PC is not the center of the universe.  Well, perhaps he/she is, but it adds the illusion that this isnt the case.  If the hwole point of the game is to get to know these characters and "build a team"  Why leave this out completely?  

I wouldn't say it adds much to the illusion, at least not as implemented. Every Bioware game has made it perfectly clear that you, the main character, are the center of attention. A few small conversations didn't really change this.

Unless Bioware starts taking character interaction to DA2 levels (which probably means that something must be cut elsewhere), it's difficult to remove the idea that your character is the center of attention.

I dunno, the participation is very good, but I don't think it's unique.  I always found the NPCs to be exceptionally well done.  They are lifelike, with their own opinions and agendas which need to be taken into account.  Sometimes you can change their mionds, sometimes not.  Sometimes they can interfere with your plans.  And sometimes they can violently interfere.  This level of interaction is distinctly missing from ME 2.  Which makes them a lot less "amazing" than npcs in previous games.

I disagree. The interactive narrative is more unique than interacting npcs. As I said, in any book, movie, comic, I am dealing with npcs. In a role-playing game? That's not the case. Bioware characters are awesome, but what sets the 'apart' is that I am speaking with them.

What you are describing though is what makes them exactly like any other medium. If I want characters to ignore me, I'll read a book or watch a movie.

The fact that I like this concept doesn't make the game seem "unfinished"  Not liking it simply makes the game "not so good" to me.  Example:  Horizon.  The "Unfinished" decription means that there's something going on which I would fully expect a character to say or do something, but simply remains in the background staring blankly into space, since there's nothig to shoot at.  Seeing Miranda going through the Teltin facility saying nothing to justify or condemn the actions that took place there speaks of something left out.  SOmething should be there.  A scene.  A line of dialogue.  I don't know what exactly, but it's missing.

Still, I don't think comparing to Kotor 2 (the mother of all unfinished games) is helping your case on this point.

And the third character, who gets no say in the matter of the genophage data?  How about an asari view on what to do with it?  A turian?  A quarian?  A krogan, for crying out loud!  But they all just stand there blankly.  Because it's not their turn to be amazing yet.

Which is admittedly a flaw, moreso on their loyalty missions than anywhere else. All I can say is my attention is focused on the task at hand (helping Mordin obtain the data, finding Sidonis, etc), not on why Garrus is silent while I'm curing the genophage.

When people say that Ashley and Kaidan are "real" They are referring to the fact that 1) you can actually talk to them about the main plot missions and will offer opinions 2) They are not the "bestest bad****es EVAR!", they are simply exceptional marines with interesting backstories 3) They don't need Shepard to solve their problems. 

1) The Mass Effect 2 cast has opinions on a variety of subjects.

2) I'll address this below.

3) This is why I consider Ashley/Kaidan to be Bioware's worst characters, barring Tali. There is nothing compelling about the characters. I want problems to solve.

 Well, unless they're caught between a geth army and a nuke I guess   They are ordinary people caught in extraordinary circumstances.  And they rise to the occasion.  And that makes them interesting.  It helps that they voice their opinions on missions too.

Ahh, you just hit the crux of the issue. I can interview people on the street who are as interesting, if not more so, than Ashley. You said it yourself: she's 'ordinary'. As is Kaidan.

This is why these characters are boring. Hell, I don't even need to use the Mass Effect 2 cast, any other Bioware game alone is enough to demonstrate why.

I can meet more compelling (and realistic) individuals walking down the street than I can speaking with Ashley. Her dialogues have no direction, beyond exploring an ordinary person.

But I don't want realism.

What was engaging about Carth (and so utterly lacking in Kaidan) was what you refer to as 'baggage'. It gave me an opportunity to explore Carth's backstory, and compelled me to finish his tale. I can do this for almost every Bioware character, except Ashley and Kaidan who have no mission to speak of.

Alistair is the bastard son of a King, Canderous is a cast down warrior trying to make a living, Bastila is a legendary Jedi, Zevran is an assassin! Dawn Star can sense spirits. Take your pick.

Do any of these characters sound 'ordinary' to you? Hell, they may feel real, but I personally have never encountered an assassin, a Jedi, a King's bastard, etc. This builds intrigue. Now factor in the Mass Effect 2 cast. My enjoyment of those characters has nothing to do with them being the "super baddest, whatever". They, like most Bioware characters, are different, they have problems, and stories to tell, which trigger emotion.

Ashley (to a lesser extent Kaidan) does not. She's along for the ride, and unlike  Carth, whose backstory is deeply connected to the main quest, Ashley is simply here to tell you her life's story, which doesn't have a direction.

Someone else in another thread put it best:

Ashley is a career soldiers, and largely well adjusted. She's as interesting as any normal, well-adjusted tax accountant.

And why I think Arrival simply submitted to the inevitable.

Something which I approve of. It is not necessary for every Bioware game to be main character + gang, until the final boss.

Modifié par Il Divo, 08 avril 2011 - 07:44 .

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...
I wouldn't say it adds much to the illusion, at least not as implemented. Every Bioware game has made it perfectly clear that you, the main character, are the center of attention. A few small conversations didn't really change this.

Unless Bioware starts taking character interaction to DA2 levels (which probably means that something must be cut elsewhere), it's difficult to remove the idea that your character is the center of attention.

The player is center of the story, of course.  But not the whole of the squadmates' existence.  The characters have other worries, desires, and agendas which do not necessailly align with your own.  Sten may follow you to learn about the Blilght and help you stop it.  But he likes cookies too.  And plays with trains kittens .  Conversations and actions outside involvement with the player shows these things, makes them seem less robitic

I dunno, the participation is very good, but I don't think it's unique.  I always found the NPCs to be exceptionally well done.  They are lifelike, with their own opinions and agendas which need to be taken into account.  Sometimes you can change their mionds, sometimes not.  Sometimes they can interfere with your plans.  And sometimes they can violently interfere.  This level of interaction is distinctly missing from ME 2.  Which makes them a lot less "amazing" than npcs in previous games.

I disagree. The interactive narrative is more unique than interacting npcs. As I said, in any book, movie, comic, I am dealing with npcs. In a role-playing game? That's not the case. Bioware characters are awesome, but what sets the 'apart' is that I am speaking with them.

What you are describing though is what makes them exactly like any other medium. If I want characters to ignore me, I'll read a book or watch a movie.

Still, I don't think comparing to Kotor 2 (the mother of all unfinished games) is helping your case on this point.

What can I say? I find "Where the heck did Bao-Dur go? is right up there with "Why doesn't Miranda/Jacob talk in the Teltin facility?

Which is admittedly a flaw, moreso on their loyalty missions than anywhere else. All I can say is my attention is focused on the task at hand (helping Mordin obtain the data, finding Sidonis, etc), not on why Garrus is silent while I'm curing the genophage. 

And my focus is on the task at hand and what effects that has.  Choice and consequences

And in a game about garnering loyalty, I like to hear what my squadmates think about my choices.  At least Ashley tells me she thinks it was a mistake to spare the rachni queen.

1) The Mass Effect 2 cast has opinions on a variety of subjects.

2) I'll address this below.

3) This is why I consider Ashley/Kaidan to be Bioware's worst characters, barring Tali. There is nothing compelling about the characters. I want problems to solve.

1) Which ones favor rewriting the geth, and which favor blowing them up?

3) Careful there, you can get away with slighting Ash/Kaiden that way, but Talimancers'll string you up for talk like that

Ahh, you just hit the crux of the issue. I can interview people on the street who are as interesting, if not more so, than Ashley. You said it yourself: she's 'ordinary'. As is Kaidan.

This is why these characters are boring. Hell, I don't even need to use the Mass Effect 2 cast, any other Bioware game alone is enough to demonstrate why.

I can meet more compelling (and realistic) individuals walking down the street than I can speaking with Ashley. Her dialogues have no direction, beyond exploring an ordinary person.

But I don't want realism.

But how many ordinary people do you get to meet who save the galaxy from a race of sentient starships waiting in dark space to destroy all life in the galaxy?  It's not a person being ordinary that makes them interesting,  It's how they react when their ordinary world is radically shifted.

John Maclane
Ellen Ripley
Frodo
that kid from the moisture farm on Tatooine

Granted they sometimes end up becoming demigods as their stories evolve.  But the start of their stories are the same:  ordinary person who ends up in the right place at the right time to do something extraordinary. 

What was engaging about Carth (and so utterly lacking in Kaidan) was what you refer to as 'baggage'. It gave me an opportunity to explore Carth's backstory, and compelled me to finish his tale. I can do this for almost every Bioware character, except Ashley and Kaidan who have no mission to speak of.

 
But Kaidan has his stories about BAaT.  Ash has her family history.  Both can give their opinions on the main story missions.  I found both to be really interesting, more so than any other characters in ME 1 and rivaling anythig in ME 2.  Sure it might have been nice if they had personal missions, but would searching for Rahna or meeting Ashley's sisters really have made that big a difference? 

Alistair is the bastard son of a King, Canderous is a cast down warrior trying to make a living, Bastila is a legendary Jedi, Zevran is an assassin! Dawn Star can sense spirits. Take your pick.

Do any of these characters sound 'ordinary' to you? Hell, they may feel real, but I personally have never encountered an assassin, a Jedi, a King's bastard, etc. This builds intrigue. Now factor in the Mass Effect 2 cast. My enjoyment of those characters has nothing to do with them being the "super baddest, whatever". They, like most Bioware characters, are different, they have problems, and stories to tell, which trigger emotion.

You decribed "what" they are, but now "who" they are. 

Allistair is a scion of the Therin bloodline.  But he's also an uncertain young man with an irreverent sense of humor, a strong sense of justice, and very conflicted between helping others and being a leader.

Canderous is a Mandalorian warrior watching his people's long slow slide into obscurity (hmm, sounds familiar somehow).  He's got a need to prove himself, finding bigger and bigger challenges.  He cares nothing about causes.  Might makes right.

This is why I try to avoid discussions of "what is an rpg"  Most of them miss the point.  It's not just how a character fits into a story (though that is important) It's more than the description on the character sheet.  It's the personality you fill that character with.  Any character can have "can see spirits" written into the stat block.  But how do they react to having that power?  How does being a professional killer color their opinions?  How does their worldview conflict with my own?

Ashley (to a lesser extent Kaidan) does not. She's along for the ride, and unlike  Carth, whose backstory is deeply connected to the main quest, Ashley is simply here to tell you her life's story, which doesn't have a direction.

Funny, I feel the same way about practically all the squadmates in ME 2: just along for the ride.  The ME 1 squad at least had motivation for being with you..  ANd most of their quests have nothing at asll to do with the story.

Someone else in another thread put it best:

Ashley is a career soldiers, and largely well adjusted. She's as interesting as any normal, well-adjusted tax accountant.

A tax accountant who can recite poetry while drilling you between the eyes at 100 meters

Modifié par iakus, 09 avril 2011 - 03:43 .