Remember the time Smudboy made his 6-part video on ME2 plot analysis? Cross-examination given (completed)
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Lunatic LK47
, mars 07 2011 09:51
#1151
Posté 09 avril 2011 - 06:54
JKoopman
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My Tali sense just tingled. Did someone say something negative about her character?
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#1152
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 03:45
Il Divo
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As always, apologies for the delay, but at this point I'm sure you're used to it. 
But as per Sten, what you just described still leads to him interacting with the PC, not some random party member.
Before, you brought up the issue of 'dimension' and how characters interacting with each other gave them an 'added layer'. I can see this, when implemented properly. Dragon Age 2 (and DA:O to a lesser extent) are perfect illustrations of characters being 'alive'. But what you described in Kotor, what's in ME, BG1, etc, the actual party banter is so limited that I find it hard to accept that it added a 'dimension' to the cast.
Remember, on any one playthrough, there are only so many conversations Carth/Bastila, Kaidan/Ashley could have. In the first 2 hours of Dragon Age 2, I heard more party banter than I heard in all of Kotor combined. That's what I consider adding dimension.
HK pacifier module.
But the response of the third squademate has absolutely no impact in terms of choices or consequences. You said it adds 'dimension', but that's really all. Hell, killing random civilians in Kotor didn't cause Bastila to turn on you, even though she knew your true identity.
3) Haha, best not to antagonize them considering she wasn't mentioned in our latest Gameinformer.
Notice, for one, that all of the examples you list include the main character (not the supporting cast) undergoing the Hero's Journey. Also take into account that in the case of Star Wars and LotR, the supporting cast typically includes a group of extraordinary/unique individuals (Han Solo, Ben Kenobi, Gandalf, etc). But we're not watching Ashley undergo any significant development here (that's Shepard's role). It's Shepard who is saving the galaxy from the machines, not Ashley which limits that sense of an ordinary person doing something 'extraordinary'.
Garrus and Wrex are both ordinary for the Mass Effect universe, yet they still manage to prove more compelling than Ashley, imo. They have interesting backstories, but are confronted with the same ultimate threat she is. Does Garrus being a hot head Spectre-in-training somehow devalue his extraordinary circumstances? If I recall, he still jokes about the likelihood of Saren murdering the crew of the Normandy and the difficulty of their job ahead. Yet, unlike Ashley, he still sports a very different backstory.
More then you can imagine. Some of my favorite Bioware missions have been companion quests: Mordin's loyalty mission, Sten's Sword, Carth's search for Dustil (which only took about 4 minutes of dialogue). Bioware did an amazing job of making my PC felt like he did something of significance. Just look at how Sten treats you following his companion quest and what it meant to him.
Companion quests are where you truly get to see something unique from your companions: you see them forced to confront traumatic experiences from their past, forced to make difficult decisions, or come to terms with some experience they never expected.
That's why I find Miranda's loyalty mission so enjoyable. I consider her to be amongst the 'lesser half' of ME2's cast, yet that mission was the one instance where I got to see all of her vulnerabilities exposed, especially at the end.
Except "what" they are and "who" they are are intimately connected. Alistair wouldn't really be Alistair without his background. Canderous would not be Canderous if he were not a Mandalorian. This goes for the majority of the Mass Effect 2 cast. Thane being an assassin is a significant aspect of his backstory, and has had a significant impact on how he thinks and who he is now.
Ashley at every point is still just a collective series of traits. But a set of mundane traits, complemented by a mundane backstory. Her family's history has impacted who she is, but as much as any person you might meet in life. But compare that to Carth? Compare Carth's betrayal/revenge against Saul against Ashley's back story. Compare Thane's stories of being raised as an assassin. Compare Canderous' battle tales. Ashley protecting her sisters, loving poetry, these are all traits you could find in any other person, while Ashley herself lacks a compelling background.
If you want a good comparison, you brought up Sten earlier. Sten likes cookies, kittens, etc, all traits you could expect to find in an ordinary person, but his actual backstory is filled with its own intrigue. Even Garrus and Wrex in Mass Effect 1 are still 'ordinary' for their universe, but still extraordinary by our standards, and still introduce that sense of ordinary people in extraordinary times, fighting Reapers.
That's good, because they were only along for the ride. And so were Ashley/Kaidan. Dragon Age gives you the option to kick out any party member, this especially should have been the case for a Spectre whose crew has no clear role in affairs, aside from Liara.
But how many companion quests can you name which have been 'intimately' connected to the main story? Some characters have very clear motivations (Morrigan, Carth, Alistair), but if you look at the majority of Bioware companion quests, they've rarely (if ever) impacted the story. Sten's Sword, Mission's Brother, Black Whirlwind and the Arena, etc.
I find your tastes in women curious, to say the least.
Uhh, no Officer. These aren't the droids you're looking for, move along.
iakus wrote...
The player is center of the story, of course. But not the whole of the squadmates' existence. The characters have other worries, desires, and agendas which do not necessailly align with your own. Sten may follow you to learn about the Blilght and help you stop it. But he likes cookies too. Andplays withtrains kittens . Conversations and actions outside involvement with the player shows these things, makes them seem less robitic
But as per Sten, what you just described still leads to him interacting with the PC, not some random party member.
Before, you brought up the issue of 'dimension' and how characters interacting with each other gave them an 'added layer'. I can see this, when implemented properly. Dragon Age 2 (and DA:O to a lesser extent) are perfect illustrations of characters being 'alive'. But what you described in Kotor, what's in ME, BG1, etc, the actual party banter is so limited that I find it hard to accept that it added a 'dimension' to the cast.
Remember, on any one playthrough, there are only so many conversations Carth/Bastila, Kaidan/Ashley could have. In the first 2 hours of Dragon Age 2, I heard more party banter than I heard in all of Kotor combined. That's what I consider adding dimension.
What can I say? I find "Where the heck did Bao-Dur go? is right up there with "Why doesn't Miranda/Jacob talk in the Teltin facility?
HK pacifier module.
And my focus is on the task at hand and what effects that has. Choice and consequences
And in a game about garnering loyalty, I like to hear what my squadmates think about my choices. At least Ashley tells me she thinks it was a mistake to spare the rachni queen.
But the response of the third squademate has absolutely no impact in terms of choices or consequences. You said it adds 'dimension', but that's really all. Hell, killing random civilians in Kotor didn't cause Bastila to turn on you, even though she knew your true identity.
1) Which ones favor rewriting the geth, and which favor blowing them up?
3) Careful there, you can get away with slighting Ash/Kaiden that way, but Talimancers'll string you up for talk like that
3) Haha, best not to antagonize them considering she wasn't mentioned in our latest Gameinformer.
But how many ordinary people do you get to meet who save the galaxy from a race of sentient starships waiting in dark space to destroy all life in the galaxy? It's not a person being ordinary that makes them interesting, It's how they react when their ordinary world is radically shifted.
-examples-
Granted they sometimes end up becoming demigods as their stories evolve. But the start of their stories are the
same: ordinary person who ends up in the right place at the right time to do something extraordinary.
Notice, for one, that all of the examples you list include the main character (not the supporting cast) undergoing the Hero's Journey. Also take into account that in the case of Star Wars and LotR, the supporting cast typically includes a group of extraordinary/unique individuals (Han Solo, Ben Kenobi, Gandalf, etc). But we're not watching Ashley undergo any significant development here (that's Shepard's role). It's Shepard who is saving the galaxy from the machines, not Ashley which limits that sense of an ordinary person doing something 'extraordinary'.
Garrus and Wrex are both ordinary for the Mass Effect universe, yet they still manage to prove more compelling than Ashley, imo. They have interesting backstories, but are confronted with the same ultimate threat she is. Does Garrus being a hot head Spectre-in-training somehow devalue his extraordinary circumstances? If I recall, he still jokes about the likelihood of Saren murdering the crew of the Normandy and the difficulty of their job ahead. Yet, unlike Ashley, he still sports a very different backstory.
But Kaidan has his stories about BAaT. Ash has her family history. Both can give their opinions on the main story missions. I found both to be really interesting, more so than any other characters in ME 1 and rivaling anythig in ME 2. Sure it might have been nice if they had personal missions, but would searching for Rahna or meeting Ashley's sisters really have made that big a difference?
More then you can imagine. Some of my favorite Bioware missions have been companion quests: Mordin's loyalty mission, Sten's Sword, Carth's search for Dustil (which only took about 4 minutes of dialogue). Bioware did an amazing job of making my PC felt like he did something of significance. Just look at how Sten treats you following his companion quest and what it meant to him.
Companion quests are where you truly get to see something unique from your companions: you see them forced to confront traumatic experiences from their past, forced to make difficult decisions, or come to terms with some experience they never expected.
That's why I find Miranda's loyalty mission so enjoyable. I consider her to be amongst the 'lesser half' of ME2's cast, yet that mission was the one instance where I got to see all of her vulnerabilities exposed, especially at the end.
You decribed "what" they are, but now "who" they are.
This is why I try to avoid discussions of "what is an rpg" Most of them miss the point. It's not just how a character fits into a story (though that is important) It's more than the description on the character sheet. It's the personality you fill that character with. Any character can have "can see spirits" written into the stat block. But how do they react to having that power? How does being a professional killer color their opinions? How does their worldview conflict with my own?
Except "what" they are and "who" they are are intimately connected. Alistair wouldn't really be Alistair without his background. Canderous would not be Canderous if he were not a Mandalorian. This goes for the majority of the Mass Effect 2 cast. Thane being an assassin is a significant aspect of his backstory, and has had a significant impact on how he thinks and who he is now.
Ashley at every point is still just a collective series of traits. But a set of mundane traits, complemented by a mundane backstory. Her family's history has impacted who she is, but as much as any person you might meet in life. But compare that to Carth? Compare Carth's betrayal/revenge against Saul against Ashley's back story. Compare Thane's stories of being raised as an assassin. Compare Canderous' battle tales. Ashley protecting her sisters, loving poetry, these are all traits you could find in any other person, while Ashley herself lacks a compelling background.
If you want a good comparison, you brought up Sten earlier. Sten likes cookies, kittens, etc, all traits you could expect to find in an ordinary person, but his actual backstory is filled with its own intrigue. Even Garrus and Wrex in Mass Effect 1 are still 'ordinary' for their universe, but still extraordinary by our standards, and still introduce that sense of ordinary people in extraordinary times, fighting Reapers.
Funny, I feel the same way about practically all the squadmates in ME 2: just along for the ride. The ME 1 squad at least had motivation for being with you.. ANd most of their quests have nothing at asll to do with the story.
That's good, because they were only along for the ride. And so were Ashley/Kaidan. Dragon Age gives you the option to kick out any party member, this especially should have been the case for a Spectre whose crew has no clear role in affairs, aside from Liara.
But how many companion quests can you name which have been 'intimately' connected to the main story? Some characters have very clear motivations (Morrigan, Carth, Alistair), but if you look at the majority of Bioware companion quests, they've rarely (if ever) impacted the story. Sten's Sword, Mission's Brother, Black Whirlwind and the Arena, etc.
A tax accountant who can recite poetry while drilling you between the eyes at 100 meters
I find your tastes in women curious, to say the least.
JKoopman wrote...
My Tali sense just tingled. Did someone say something negative about her character?
Uhh, no Officer. These aren't the droids you're looking for, move along.
Modifié par Il Divo, 10 avril 2011 - 07:53 .
#1153
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 07:41
JKoopman
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Il Divo wrote...
JKoopman wrote...
My Tali sense just tingled. Did someone say something negative about her character?
Uhh, no Officer. These aren't the droids you're looking for, move along.
#1154
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 08:53
Iakus
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Il Divo wrote...
But as per Sten, what you just described still leads to him interacting with the PC, not some random party member.
Before, you brought up the issue of 'dimension' and how characters interacting with each other gave them an 'added layer'. I can see this, when implemented properly. Dragon Age 2 (and DA:O to a lesser extent) are perfect illustrations of characters being 'alive'. But what you described in Kotor, what's in ME, BG1, etc, the actual party banter is so limited that I find it hard to accept that it added a 'dimension' to the cast.
Remember, on any one playthrough, there are only so many conversations Carth/Bastila, Kaidan/Ashley could have. In the first 2 hours of Dragon Age 2, I heard more party banter than I heard in all of Kotor combined. That's what I consider adding dimension.
Actually, it's Leliana who calls him out on the kitten thing (as well as picking flowers), calling him a "big softie" which greatly embaressed him.
Ah, but KOTOR came out when, 2003? There's been almost a decade of technological advancement since then. For the time, and even for other companies' games today, it's jaw-droppingly amazing. It only makes sense that DA2, a brand new game, would be able to produce so much more banter. But ME2, a game only a year old, has virtually none at all? As a character-focused game?
But the response of the third squademate has absolutely no impact in terms of choices or consequences. You said it adds 'dimension', but that's really all. Hell, killing random civilians in Kotor didn't cause Bastila to turn on you, even though she knew your true identity.
No impact in terms of story consequences? Perhaps. But it would be feedback about the wisdom of your choice. What sort of people think this is a good or bad idea? It's like Shepard said to Ashley in ME 1 "When I want advice from the head, I talk to Alenko. When I want advice from the heart, I talk to you"
The one time in ME 2 where this happened was the choice with the OCllector Base. Some squadmates favored blowing it up, others in keeping it. A pity that once the choice is made, they all reverted to "keeping it's a bad idea"
Notice, for one, that all of the examples you list include the main character (not the supporting cast) undergoing the Hero's Journey. Also take into account that in the case of Star Wars and LotR, the supporting cast typically includes a group of extraordinary/unique individuals (Han Solo, Ben Kenobi, Gandalf, etc). But we're not watching Ashley undergo any significant development here (that's Shepard's role). It's Shepard who is saving the galaxy from the machines, not Ashley which limits that sense of an ordinary person doing something 'extraordinary'.
Fair enough. How about:
Al Powell
Dwane Hicks
Samwise Gamgee
Han Solo (sure he's a smuggler in a fast ship, but when you get down to it, he's a petty criminal in a seedy bar to start out)
And I will point out that Ashley and Kaidan can change, though only if you romance them. You can make Ashley more accepting of aliens or Kaidan more suspicious of them. part of the disappointment in their having such a tiny role in ME 2 is how while we're told they've changed and aren't the same epople anymore, we don't get to see how they've changed. They're even wearing the same armor! Of course, I like Garrus more in ME 1 so maybe it's just as well (more on that later)
Garrus and Wrex are both ordinary for the Mass Effect universe, yet they still manage to prove more compelling than Ashley, imo. They have interesting backstories, but are confronted with the same ultimate threat she is. Does Garrus being a hot head Spectre-in-training somehow devalue his extraordinary circumstances? If I recall, he still jokes about the likelihood of Saren murdering the crew of the Normandy and the difficulty of their job ahead. Yet, unlike Ashley, he still sports a very different backstory.
Garrus did have a cool backstory. A talented C-Sec officer torn between Law and Justice. I liked him a lot in ME 1, particularly since he's a character at a crossroads whom you can nudge in a given direction. Overall, I think I'd list him as close behind Ash/Kaidan as most interesting ME 1 character. He was by far more interesting then than he was as a bad**** sniper who could hold off three merc armies all by his lonesome. Angsty superhero is a lot less interesting than law enforecement officer at an ethical crossroads.
More then you can imagine. Some of my favorite Bioware missions have been companion quests: Mordin's loyalty mission, Sten's Sword, Carth's search for Dustil (which only took about 4 minutes of dialogue). These helping (or hurting) these companions did an amazing job of making my PC felt like he did something of significance. Just look at how Sten treats you following his companion quest and what it meant to him.
Companion quests are where you truly get to see something unique from your companions: you see them forced to confront traumatic experiences from their past, forced to make difficult decisions, or come to terms with some experience they never expected.
That's why I find Miranda's loyalty mission so enjoyable. I consider her to be amongst the 'lesser half' of ME2's cast, yet that mission was the one instance where I got to see all of her vulnerabilities exposed, especially at the end.
I won't deny that companion quests are a good thing. Even vital in some cases. But they cannot carry a game all by themselves. And they cannot carry the characters all by themselves either. Sure Miranda's mission showed that she's not the unflappable ice queen she seemed to be, and it showed how far she was willing to go to protect others, but how about he rest of the game? Afterwards, do we see her treating the crew differently? Any new dialogue afterwards? (besides the "I want you now" conversation with MaleShep) any new thoughts about the mission? Do any of the other squadmates now seem to view Miranda differently?
Except "what" they are and "who" they are are intimately connected. Alistair wouldn't really be Alistair without his background. Canderous would not be Canderous if he were not a Mandalorian. This goes for the majority of the Mass Effect 2 cast. Thane being an assassin is a significant aspect of his backstory, and has had a significant impact on how he thinks and who he is now.
"Connected" isn't the same as "identical" though. Sure Alistair wouldn't be the exactly same without his background. But he could still have, say Oghren's personality and still be a Therin. Or be an extremely pious Brother Alistair. Or Alistair the Circle Mage. All of them the illegitimate half-brother of the king.
By the same token, Thane could have been an assassin who never overcame his need for vengence. His backstory could have been convincing him not to let his son follow in his footsteps. He'd still be an assassin, but of a very different kind. Or he could have been so full of regret he gave in to despair. Finding him would have entailed a bar crawl, finding him in a drunken stupor. Again, an assassin, but a very different person.
It's not just what they are, it's who they are. I think I'm starting to sound like a Vorlon
Ashley at every point is still just a collective series of traits. But a set of mundane traits, complemented by a mundane backstory. Her family's history has impacted who she is, but as much as any person you might meet in life. But compare that to Carth? Compare Carth's betrayal/revenge against Saul against Ashley's back story. Compare Thane's stories of being raised as an assassin. Compare Canderous' battle tales. Ashley protecting her sisters, loving poetry, these are all traits you could find in any other person, while Ashley herself lacks a compelling background.
All have good backstories, and all make interesting characters.
Carth's betrayal left him with the inability to trust others. And his son throwing in with those who betrayed him was a massive shock for him.
Thane was raised to believe that he was simply a tool of others' will. Until one day he followed his own will, with bloody consequences he was atoning for til the moment you recruited him.
Ashley's family was blacklisted from the Alliance military for her grandfather's actions. She struggled every day to be better than anyone else, earning exemplary marks in an attempt to overcome her family name and prove herself worthy on the Alliance uniform. This struggle has given her a pessimistic view of the galaxy as a whole and aliens in particular.
Kaidan was an early human biotic, struggling to learn to control his abilities under the sadistic eye of a turian mercenary. One day he snapped and killed him, and since then has been careful to always consider the consequences of his actions. His experiences have taught him that there is good and evil in all people human and alien alike.
If you want a good comparison, you brought up Sten earlier. Sten likes cookies, kittens, etc, all traits you could expect to find in an ordinary person, but his actual backstory is filled with its own intrigue. Even Garrus and Wrex in Mass Effect 1 are still 'ordinary' for their universe, but still extraordinary by our standards, and still introduce that sense of ordinary people in extraordinary times, fighting Reapers.
Sten has a good backstory. But it's the cookies and kittens makes him more than just another Sten. Garrus' backstory and internal conflict also makes him more than just another C-Sec agent. Wrex, being a Battlemaster is a bit "extreme" compared to the rest of the crew, but heck, at least he's not a genetically engineered "pure" krogan
That's good, because they were only along for the ride. And so were Ashley/Kaidan. Dragon Age gives you the option to kick out any party member, this especially should have been the case for a Spectre whose crew has no clear role in affairs, aside from Liara.
As a Spectre, yeah, you could have had that authority. But then, you could always have left squadmates you didn't like behind to "guard the ship" But each member of the ME 1 team had a reason to go after Saren. Most of the ME 2 squad are just there because you did them a favor.
But how many companion quests can you name which have been 'intimately' connected to the main story? Some characters have very clear motivations (Morrigan, Carth, Alistair), but if you look at the majority of Bioware companion quests, they've rarely (if ever) impacted the story. Sten's Sword, Mission's Brother, Black Whirlwind and the Arena, etc.
This is true. But this is probably the first Bioware game I've played where the personal missions are the whole point of the game. And like I said, they can't carry it on their own. I would have appreciated a chance to get more of a reaction from them about the missing colonies, the Collectors, working for Cerberus, and so on. Instead I find myself asking "which merc group are we going to be slaughtering this time?"
Modifié par iakus, 10 avril 2011 - 08:57 .
#1155
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 08:57
Fiery Phoenix
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It's time you crossed out that second line in your signature, Iakus, since we now know Ashley is a confirmed squadmate in ME3!
Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 10 avril 2011 - 08:58 .
#1156
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 09:31
Iakus
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Fiery Phoenix wrote...
It's time you crossed out that second line in your signature, Iakus, since we now know Ashley is a confirmed squadmate in ME3!
Thanks, forgot I'd added that
#1157
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 06:04
george martin
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I thought ME1 was the best RPG I ever played, phenomenal story and good gameplay, def top of the list, only thing lacking was squad dialogue and MOAR party banter. ME2 was a very good game but did have a lot of problems with the story while the gameplay was simply amazing.
The main points that smudboy makes that I really agree with is Shepard doesn't develop at all in the story, what does he think about being brought back to life after being dead? Any intelligent creature would have questions about that. You think Kelly would at least talk to him about it 1 on 1. I was disappointed it was hardly brought up except when people said I thought you were toast and he'd say ya I've been getting that a lot lately. The only time we have any real character development with Shepard is when Liara asks, hey how you doing? What do you think about everything? She also should have asked this majorly important question. What do you think about being brought back to life that must have been a little out of the norm even for you huh? His squad members don't say anything about it either really, they barely mention it as you would the weather. MOAR character development is important and knowing what is actually going on in his head would add a hell of a lot to the story.
That being said I love the franchise but they do need to add more meat to Shepard's character. That and smudboy was more than correct when we really knew hardly anything about the Reapers or what they're really doing until you meet the human reaper. They should have stuck to the Reaper storyline in ME2 and had the collectors as a side quest deal would have made a lot more sense, still a good game but ME1 story was far better.
The main points that smudboy makes that I really agree with is Shepard doesn't develop at all in the story, what does he think about being brought back to life after being dead? Any intelligent creature would have questions about that. You think Kelly would at least talk to him about it 1 on 1. I was disappointed it was hardly brought up except when people said I thought you were toast and he'd say ya I've been getting that a lot lately. The only time we have any real character development with Shepard is when Liara asks, hey how you doing? What do you think about everything? She also should have asked this majorly important question. What do you think about being brought back to life that must have been a little out of the norm even for you huh? His squad members don't say anything about it either really, they barely mention it as you would the weather. MOAR character development is important and knowing what is actually going on in his head would add a hell of a lot to the story.
That being said I love the franchise but they do need to add more meat to Shepard's character. That and smudboy was more than correct when we really knew hardly anything about the Reapers or what they're really doing until you meet the human reaper. They should have stuck to the Reaper storyline in ME2 and had the collectors as a side quest deal would have made a lot more sense, still a good game but ME1 story was far better.
Modifié par george martin, 11 avril 2011 - 06:06 .
#1158
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 06:07
ErebUs890
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I think Smudboy's just trollin. How could anyone be that moronic? I watched all of his analysis videos and I don't think anyone could unknowingly be that dumb.
#1159
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 06:29
tonnactus
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Almostfaceman wrote...
It's Jack who gives Miranda a hard time when it comes to volunteering for a team lead - and Garrus is shaking his head at Jack in the background.
That is wrong.If jack is dead,garrus say: "Half of us dont even trust you."
#1160
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 06:30
CroGamer002
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^If he's dead, then Jacob says something.
Still didn't saw what he says.
Still didn't saw what he says.
#1161
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 06:34
Tyrannosaurus Rex
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Mesina2 wrote...
^If he's dead, then Jacob says something.
Still didn't saw what he says.
"Maybe not the best idea Miranda, I respect you, but alot of the others don't trust you."
#1162
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 06:37
CroGamer002
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Lizardviking wrote...
Mesina2 wrote...
^If he's dead, then Jacob says something.
Still didn't saw what he says.
"Maybe not the best idea Miranda, I respect you, but alot of the others don't trust you."
thx;)
#1163
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 07:14
Almostfaceman
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tonnactus wrote...
Almostfaceman wrote...
It's Jack who gives Miranda a hard time when it comes to volunteering for a team lead - and Garrus is shaking his head at Jack in the background.
That is wrong.If jack is dead,garrus say: "Half of us dont even trust you."
So who is shaking their head in the background then?
It's hyperbole. Take a poll of your squadmates and see who does and who doesn't trust Miranda - oh wait - you can't.
Modifié par Almostfaceman, 11 avril 2011 - 07:15 .
#1164
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 07:23
Drake_Hound
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LoL listening to smudboy , makes me sleep already >.<
People like him ? hahah his voice already irritate me .
perfect voice for a troll , I already imagine trolls with those voices .
Who really watched the 6 video with that voice XD
People like him ? hahah his voice already irritate me .
perfect voice for a troll , I already imagine trolls with those voices .
Who really watched the 6 video with that voice XD
#1165
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 07:30
Bourne Endeavor
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Drake_Hound wrote...
LoL listening to smudboy , makes me sleep already >.<
People like him ? hahah his voice already irritate me .
perfect voice for a troll , I already imagine trolls with those voices .
Who really watched the 6 video with that voice XD
I have watched his entire analysis for everything, twice actually. Quite intriguing even if we do not completely agree.
#1166
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 07:30
xSTONEYx187x
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47 pages? Dedicated to Smudboy? Really? Muthafukin' REALLY? Is it enough we have to contend Zulu "That's a plothole" DFA.
Ah whatevs.
Ah whatevs.
#1167
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 07:34
Drake_Hound
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Bourne Endeavor wrote...
Drake_Hound wrote...
LoL listening to smudboy , makes me sleep already >.<
People like him ? hahah his voice already irritate me .
perfect voice for a troll , I already imagine trolls with those voices .
Who really watched the 6 video with that voice XD
I have watched his entire analysis for everything, twice actually. Quite intriguing even if we do not completely agree.
hahah then you definetly need to use voicechat a bit more , even my GF agrees smudboy voice makes her fall asleep.
You sure have a lot of patience or maybe you should just call him up , and date him
#1169
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 07:43
Drake_Hound
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iakus wrote...
::sigh:: Haters gonna hate.
No am not a hater , I just fall asleep with his voice <_<
Imagine that being my raid leader , listening to a briefing , or my market researcher .
I would so fall asleep
Hmm maybe it is a good 6 video if I really cannot sleep .
Zzzzzzz but I get a picture of smudboy with his voice , a teen in his early youth just gotten his beard in the throat.
With tons of pimpels .
Sorry just can´t help it , I always place a picture with a voice .
#1170
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 08:01
Nashiktal
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Drake_Hound wrote...
Bourne Endeavor wrote...
Drake_Hound wrote...
LoL listening to smudboy , makes me sleep already >.<
People like him ? hahah his voice already irritate me .
perfect voice for a troll , I already imagine trolls with those voices .
Who really watched the 6 video with that voice XD
I have watched his entire analysis for everything, twice actually. Quite intriguing even if we do not completely agree.
hahah then you definetly need to use voicechat a bit more , even my GF agrees smudboy voice makes her fall asleep.
You sure have a lot of patience or maybe you should just call him up , and date him
You are erring on the creepy side. I would lessen up on that.
#1171
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 08:04
Il Divo
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- 9 749 messages
[quote]iakus wrote...
Actually, it's Leliana who calls him out on the kitten thing (as well as picking flowers), calling him a "big softie" which greatly embaressed him. [/quote]
Regardless, I did say that Origins had 'above average' character interactions. I assume it was an instance of party banter?
[quote]
Ah, but KOTOR came out when, 2003? There's been almost a decade of technological advancement since then. For the time, and even for other companies' games today, it's jaw-droppingly amazing. It only makes sense that DA2, a brand new game, would be able to produce so much more banter. But ME2, a game only a year old, has virtually none at all? As a character-focused game?
[/quote]
And if we were discussing the graphics you might have had a point. Bioware is well-known for implementing dialogue which could potentially never see the light of day. Including more dialogue between squadmates does not fall under 'technological advancement' as I understand it. It’s the equivalent of arguing that Mass Effect 2 should have had a ‘better plot’ because of technological advancement.
On the other hand, if you want a better comparison, we did have a five year gap between Kotor and Mass Effect 1. Yet, for all its 'cinematic' quality, Mass Effect's companion dialogue was no more advanced, filled with the same talking head syndrome. It may as well been Baldur’s Gate I for all the advancment it had.
[quote]
No impact in terms of story consequences? Perhaps. But it would be feedback about the wisdom of your choice. What sort of people think this is a good or bad idea? It's like Shepard said to Ashley in ME 1 "When I want advice from the head, I talk to Alenko. When I want advice from the heart, I talk to you"
[/quote]
And that’s fine, until you realize that ‘squad feedback’ doesn’t usually lead anywhere. There were only so many times that Bastila could criticize me for harming an innocent before I started wondering how she could simply let it continue. The same for Liara and the Rachni queen.
As I said, my attention is focused on the task at hand, not why my party isn't commenting on why I decided to go left instead of right, or why Shepard had to go to the bathroom.
[quote]
Fair enough. How about:
Al Powell
Dwane Hicks
Samwise Gamgee
Han Solo (sure he's a smuggler in a fast ship, but when you get down to it, he's a petty criminal in a seedy bar to start out) [/quote]
Actually, Han Solo would be a great example of an extraordinary character. The problem is that you are equating ‘extraordinary’ with ‘superhero’ as demonstrated by the Mass Effect 2 cast. This is not the case. Carth has an extraordinary background which is very different than anything in 'ordinary' life. Again, how many people can you say you’ve met whose goal is to murder someone who once betrayed them?
Yet, despite being ‘extraordinary’, Carth is still dealing with a very dangerous threat which still makes him feel very small in comparison, as demonstrated by Darth Malak. He manages to evoke far more sympathy than Kaidan.
[quote]
And I will point out that Ashley and Kaidan can change, though only if you romance them. You can make Ashley more accepting of aliens or Kaidan more suspicious of them. part of the disappointment in their having such a tiny role in ME 2 is how while we're told they've changed and aren't the same epople anymore, we don't get to see how they've changed. They're even wearing the same armor! Of course, I like Garrus more in ME 1 so maybe it's just as well (more on that later) [/quote]
Yet, your comparison is still difficult to maintain. Ashley’s (potential) shift is still not equitable to the Hero’s Journey, as demonstrated in other mediums. Although a brick, Shepard himself is undergoing the Hero’s Journey, not Ashley. That’s why the ordinary person in extraordinary circumstances doesn’t work out so much for her, not when the character is so extrenuous.
[quote]
Overall, I think I'd list him as close behind Ash/Kaidan as most interesting ME 1 character. He was by far more interesting then than he was as a bad**** sniper who could hold off three merc armies all by his lonesome. Angsty superhero is a lot less interesting than law enforecement officer at an ethical crossroads. [/quote]
Hmm? Angsty? I hope you’re not attempting to imply that Garrus would be Bioware’s first ‘angsty’ character. If so, I’d like to direct your attention towards Carth, Juhani, Sagacious Zu, or even Wrex, amongst others.
I also preferred Garrus in Mass Effect 2. His dialogue with Shepard was much improved; the two actually felt like Brothers in Arms compared to his weak dialogue in Mass Effect.
[quote]
I won't deny that companion quests are a good thing. Even vital in some cases. But they cannot carry a game all by themselves. And they cannot carry the characters all by themselves either. Sure Miranda's mission showed that she's not the unflappable ice queen she seemed to be, and it showed how far she was willing to go to protect others, but how about he rest of the game? Afterwards, do we see her treating the crew differently? Any new dialogue afterwards? (besides the "I want you now" conversation with MaleShep) any new thoughts about the mission? Do any of the other squadmates now seem to view Miranda differently? [/quote]
Again, this would not be the first Bioware game where companion quests were self-contained. The only difference is that they were given a far grander scale in Mass Effect 2. It showed us that Miranda did have a soft side, but why should it have to change her thoughts on the mission?
[quote]
"Connected" isn't the same as "identical" though. Sure Alistair wouldn't be the exactly same without his background. But he could still have, say Oghren's personality and still be a Therin. Or be an extremely pious Brother Alistair. Or Alistair the Circle Mage. All of them the illegitimate half-brother of the king. [/quote]
Yet, if you remove his circumstances, you’ve also radically changed the characteristics that gave him that personality in the first place. If Alistair is now a circle mage, then his experiences are going to be quite different, and part of what made him so compelling as the reluctant bastard son of a king have now changed. The story itself has now changed.
I’m a huge fan of the graphic novel Watchmen (which involves superheroes ironically enough). One of the best aspects of the story is not only the characters, but learning how and why they’ve come to see the world as they do. Their back stories are intimately connected to their current identities. Hell, look at Malcolm Reynolds and how bitter he’s become. Imagine all that without knowing about the war. He’d feel like a very different character without understanding his background.
[quote]
Ashley's family was blacklisted from the Alliance military for her grandfather's actions. She struggled every day to be better than anyone else, earning exemplary marks in an attempt to overcome her family name and prove herself worthy on the Alliance uniform. This struggle has given her a pessimistic view of the galaxy as a whole and aliens in particular. [/quote]
And this is where I (as usual) disagree. Comparatively speaking, we spend far less time becoming acquainted with Ashley’s “story” than we do with Carth, Canderous, or Thane. This is what I mean by every character following a clear ‘arc’. To some degree, we have an idea where these characters and their conversations are going, and we get to learn about their backgrounds in the process.
With Canderous, we learn about how he became a Mandalorian Commander, how the war ended, and why the Mandalorian clans have fallen into despair.
Carth has the betrayal arc, etc. With Thane, we follow his training as an assassin, the interesting encounter with his wife, vengeance arc, etc.
With Ashley? Well, today we might discuss the military, tomorrow we might discuss her younger sister, or poetry, or religion…it feels aimless, in comparison. The type of interactions I could get with Ashley I could have with any ordinary person, which is ultimately all Ashley is. Boring, to say the least, compared to many of the other characters' backgrounds. Good thing Tali is there, or I'd have to put her last.
[quote]
Kaidan was an early human biotic, struggling to learn to control his abilities under the sadistic eye of a turian mercenary. One day he snapped and killed him, and since then has been careful to always consider the consequences of his actions. His experiences have taught him that there is good and evil in all people human and alien alike.[/quote]
And while I will admit that Kaidan has a clear arc, as a character I also found him lacking though for different reasons. Kaidan is a love interest. For female Shepards. If you’re a femshep romancing Kaidan, great. On the other hand, once he finishes his story, there’s nothing more to the character. In Kaidan’s case, the problem is due to his arc being unfinished.
This is where ‘baggage’ should have entered the picture, and why I find Kaidan bland. I couldn’t romance Carth in Kotor 1, but there was still a clear reconciliation between our two characters as he came to terms with his betrayal. This is even the case for most Bioware party members (Thane, Alistair, take your pick). In other words, he doesn’t have a clear development in the way that Carth does (ironic since they share a voice actor). Kaidan is essentially ‘half a Carth’ if you take my meaning.
[quote]
Sten has a good backstory. But it's the cookies and kittens makes him more than just another Sten. Garrus' backstory and internal conflict also makes him more than just another C-Sec agent. Wrex, being a Battlemaster is a bit "extreme" compared to the rest of the crew, but heck, at least he's not a genetically engineered "pure" krogan [/quote]
Hardly. Sten is Sten because of his backstory, people, and personality. Try taking the cookies out of Sten versus his backstory. I guarantee you the latter is more essential than the former.
[quote]
As a Spectre, yeah, you could have had that authority. But then, you could always have left squadmates you didn't like behind to "guard the ship" [/quote]
You also have the option of not bringing 'controversial' squadmates with you to loyalty missions. They could be 'guarding the ship' in much the same capacity. Somehow, I don't think either of our 'solutions' would please the other.
[quote]
But each member of the ME 1 team had a reason to go after Saren. Most of the ME 2 squad are just there because you did them a favor. [/quote]
Nonsense. If you want an effective comparison, look to Kotor. Every companion has a definite reason to accompany Revan: Carth wants Saul, Bastila is a famous Jedi with visions, Zaalbar has the life debt, etc.
Most of your Mass Effect squad is merely along for the ride. Ashley wants to 'prove herself', Kaidan had no motivation, Wrex is a merc. As it is, Shepard isn’t even part of the Alliance officially; Ashley could easily be 'proving herself' anywhere in the galaxy.
Mass Effect 2 is much the same way. Jacob and Miranda admittedly have a vested interest, as does Mordin (he knows about the Collectors). But Thane? Samara? They have motivations, I suppose. But like Ashley, if Thane wants to redeem himself, if Samara wants to fight evil, they have a million other actions they could be doing in support of their cause. Shepard merely encounters all these characters at the right place and time.
[quote]
This is true. But this is probably the first Bioware game I've played where the personal missions are the whole point of the game. And like I said, they can't carry it on their own. I would have appreciated a chance to get more of a reaction from them about the missing colonies, the Collectors, working for Cerberus, and so on. Instead I find myself asking "which merc group are we going to be slaughtering this time?"
[/quote]
More than a few had opinions on all these topics. Shepard has the opportunity to ask Garrus his thoughts on Cerberus, as well as what he thinks of the Collector threat. The same with Tali. You are given an analysis of the Prothean-Collector connection from Mordin, and Samara actually tells you about her own encounter with the Collectors.
The squadmates who don't comment are simply the ones who don't care, namely Grunt and Jack. Which is fine. Kotor and Jade Empire had their share of party members who didn't really 'care' about events. Ex; Black Whirlwind.
Actually, it's Leliana who calls him out on the kitten thing (as well as picking flowers), calling him a "big softie" which greatly embaressed him. [/quote]
Regardless, I did say that Origins had 'above average' character interactions. I assume it was an instance of party banter?
[quote]
Ah, but KOTOR came out when, 2003? There's been almost a decade of technological advancement since then. For the time, and even for other companies' games today, it's jaw-droppingly amazing. It only makes sense that DA2, a brand new game, would be able to produce so much more banter. But ME2, a game only a year old, has virtually none at all? As a character-focused game?
[/quote]
And if we were discussing the graphics you might have had a point. Bioware is well-known for implementing dialogue which could potentially never see the light of day. Including more dialogue between squadmates does not fall under 'technological advancement' as I understand it. It’s the equivalent of arguing that Mass Effect 2 should have had a ‘better plot’ because of technological advancement.
On the other hand, if you want a better comparison, we did have a five year gap between Kotor and Mass Effect 1. Yet, for all its 'cinematic' quality, Mass Effect's companion dialogue was no more advanced, filled with the same talking head syndrome. It may as well been Baldur’s Gate I for all the advancment it had.
[quote]
No impact in terms of story consequences? Perhaps. But it would be feedback about the wisdom of your choice. What sort of people think this is a good or bad idea? It's like Shepard said to Ashley in ME 1 "When I want advice from the head, I talk to Alenko. When I want advice from the heart, I talk to you"
[/quote]
And that’s fine, until you realize that ‘squad feedback’ doesn’t usually lead anywhere. There were only so many times that Bastila could criticize me for harming an innocent before I started wondering how she could simply let it continue. The same for Liara and the Rachni queen.
As I said, my attention is focused on the task at hand, not why my party isn't commenting on why I decided to go left instead of right, or why Shepard had to go to the bathroom.
[quote]
Fair enough. How about:
Al Powell
Dwane Hicks
Samwise Gamgee
Han Solo (sure he's a smuggler in a fast ship, but when you get down to it, he's a petty criminal in a seedy bar to start out) [/quote]
Actually, Han Solo would be a great example of an extraordinary character. The problem is that you are equating ‘extraordinary’ with ‘superhero’ as demonstrated by the Mass Effect 2 cast. This is not the case. Carth has an extraordinary background which is very different than anything in 'ordinary' life. Again, how many people can you say you’ve met whose goal is to murder someone who once betrayed them?
Yet, despite being ‘extraordinary’, Carth is still dealing with a very dangerous threat which still makes him feel very small in comparison, as demonstrated by Darth Malak. He manages to evoke far more sympathy than Kaidan.
[quote]
And I will point out that Ashley and Kaidan can change, though only if you romance them. You can make Ashley more accepting of aliens or Kaidan more suspicious of them. part of the disappointment in their having such a tiny role in ME 2 is how while we're told they've changed and aren't the same epople anymore, we don't get to see how they've changed. They're even wearing the same armor! Of course, I like Garrus more in ME 1 so maybe it's just as well (more on that later) [/quote]
Yet, your comparison is still difficult to maintain. Ashley’s (potential) shift is still not equitable to the Hero’s Journey, as demonstrated in other mediums. Although a brick, Shepard himself is undergoing the Hero’s Journey, not Ashley. That’s why the ordinary person in extraordinary circumstances doesn’t work out so much for her, not when the character is so extrenuous.
[quote]
Overall, I think I'd list him as close behind Ash/Kaidan as most interesting ME 1 character. He was by far more interesting then than he was as a bad**** sniper who could hold off three merc armies all by his lonesome. Angsty superhero is a lot less interesting than law enforecement officer at an ethical crossroads. [/quote]
Hmm? Angsty? I hope you’re not attempting to imply that Garrus would be Bioware’s first ‘angsty’ character. If so, I’d like to direct your attention towards Carth, Juhani, Sagacious Zu, or even Wrex, amongst others.
I also preferred Garrus in Mass Effect 2. His dialogue with Shepard was much improved; the two actually felt like Brothers in Arms compared to his weak dialogue in Mass Effect.
[quote]
I won't deny that companion quests are a good thing. Even vital in some cases. But they cannot carry a game all by themselves. And they cannot carry the characters all by themselves either. Sure Miranda's mission showed that she's not the unflappable ice queen she seemed to be, and it showed how far she was willing to go to protect others, but how about he rest of the game? Afterwards, do we see her treating the crew differently? Any new dialogue afterwards? (besides the "I want you now" conversation with MaleShep) any new thoughts about the mission? Do any of the other squadmates now seem to view Miranda differently? [/quote]
Again, this would not be the first Bioware game where companion quests were self-contained. The only difference is that they were given a far grander scale in Mass Effect 2. It showed us that Miranda did have a soft side, but why should it have to change her thoughts on the mission?
[quote]
"Connected" isn't the same as "identical" though. Sure Alistair wouldn't be the exactly same without his background. But he could still have, say Oghren's personality and still be a Therin. Or be an extremely pious Brother Alistair. Or Alistair the Circle Mage. All of them the illegitimate half-brother of the king. [/quote]
Yet, if you remove his circumstances, you’ve also radically changed the characteristics that gave him that personality in the first place. If Alistair is now a circle mage, then his experiences are going to be quite different, and part of what made him so compelling as the reluctant bastard son of a king have now changed. The story itself has now changed.
I’m a huge fan of the graphic novel Watchmen (which involves superheroes ironically enough). One of the best aspects of the story is not only the characters, but learning how and why they’ve come to see the world as they do. Their back stories are intimately connected to their current identities. Hell, look at Malcolm Reynolds and how bitter he’s become. Imagine all that without knowing about the war. He’d feel like a very different character without understanding his background.
[quote]
Ashley's family was blacklisted from the Alliance military for her grandfather's actions. She struggled every day to be better than anyone else, earning exemplary marks in an attempt to overcome her family name and prove herself worthy on the Alliance uniform. This struggle has given her a pessimistic view of the galaxy as a whole and aliens in particular. [/quote]
And this is where I (as usual) disagree. Comparatively speaking, we spend far less time becoming acquainted with Ashley’s “story” than we do with Carth, Canderous, or Thane. This is what I mean by every character following a clear ‘arc’. To some degree, we have an idea where these characters and their conversations are going, and we get to learn about their backgrounds in the process.
With Canderous, we learn about how he became a Mandalorian Commander, how the war ended, and why the Mandalorian clans have fallen into despair.
Carth has the betrayal arc, etc. With Thane, we follow his training as an assassin, the interesting encounter with his wife, vengeance arc, etc.
With Ashley? Well, today we might discuss the military, tomorrow we might discuss her younger sister, or poetry, or religion…it feels aimless, in comparison. The type of interactions I could get with Ashley I could have with any ordinary person, which is ultimately all Ashley is. Boring, to say the least, compared to many of the other characters' backgrounds. Good thing Tali is there, or I'd have to put her last.
[quote]
Kaidan was an early human biotic, struggling to learn to control his abilities under the sadistic eye of a turian mercenary. One day he snapped and killed him, and since then has been careful to always consider the consequences of his actions. His experiences have taught him that there is good and evil in all people human and alien alike.[/quote]
And while I will admit that Kaidan has a clear arc, as a character I also found him lacking though for different reasons. Kaidan is a love interest. For female Shepards. If you’re a femshep romancing Kaidan, great. On the other hand, once he finishes his story, there’s nothing more to the character. In Kaidan’s case, the problem is due to his arc being unfinished.
This is where ‘baggage’ should have entered the picture, and why I find Kaidan bland. I couldn’t romance Carth in Kotor 1, but there was still a clear reconciliation between our two characters as he came to terms with his betrayal. This is even the case for most Bioware party members (Thane, Alistair, take your pick). In other words, he doesn’t have a clear development in the way that Carth does (ironic since they share a voice actor). Kaidan is essentially ‘half a Carth’ if you take my meaning.
[quote]
Sten has a good backstory. But it's the cookies and kittens makes him more than just another Sten. Garrus' backstory and internal conflict also makes him more than just another C-Sec agent. Wrex, being a Battlemaster is a bit "extreme" compared to the rest of the crew, but heck, at least he's not a genetically engineered "pure" krogan [/quote]
Hardly. Sten is Sten because of his backstory, people, and personality. Try taking the cookies out of Sten versus his backstory. I guarantee you the latter is more essential than the former.
[quote]
As a Spectre, yeah, you could have had that authority. But then, you could always have left squadmates you didn't like behind to "guard the ship" [/quote]
You also have the option of not bringing 'controversial' squadmates with you to loyalty missions. They could be 'guarding the ship' in much the same capacity. Somehow, I don't think either of our 'solutions' would please the other.
[quote]
But each member of the ME 1 team had a reason to go after Saren. Most of the ME 2 squad are just there because you did them a favor. [/quote]
Nonsense. If you want an effective comparison, look to Kotor. Every companion has a definite reason to accompany Revan: Carth wants Saul, Bastila is a famous Jedi with visions, Zaalbar has the life debt, etc.
Most of your Mass Effect squad is merely along for the ride. Ashley wants to 'prove herself', Kaidan had no motivation, Wrex is a merc. As it is, Shepard isn’t even part of the Alliance officially; Ashley could easily be 'proving herself' anywhere in the galaxy.
Mass Effect 2 is much the same way. Jacob and Miranda admittedly have a vested interest, as does Mordin (he knows about the Collectors). But Thane? Samara? They have motivations, I suppose. But like Ashley, if Thane wants to redeem himself, if Samara wants to fight evil, they have a million other actions they could be doing in support of their cause. Shepard merely encounters all these characters at the right place and time.
[quote]
This is true. But this is probably the first Bioware game I've played where the personal missions are the whole point of the game. And like I said, they can't carry it on their own. I would have appreciated a chance to get more of a reaction from them about the missing colonies, the Collectors, working for Cerberus, and so on. Instead I find myself asking "which merc group are we going to be slaughtering this time?"
[/quote]
More than a few had opinions on all these topics. Shepard has the opportunity to ask Garrus his thoughts on Cerberus, as well as what he thinks of the Collector threat. The same with Tali. You are given an analysis of the Prothean-Collector connection from Mordin, and Samara actually tells you about her own encounter with the Collectors.
The squadmates who don't comment are simply the ones who don't care, namely Grunt and Jack. Which is fine. Kotor and Jade Empire had their share of party members who didn't really 'care' about events. Ex; Black Whirlwind.
Modifié par Il Divo, 11 avril 2011 - 08:10 .
#1172
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 08:34
Niddy'
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- 696 messages
guy arguing against smud sounds like a angry teen girl after someone said Justin Bieber was a terrible singer.
#1173
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 08:41
ianmcdonald
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- 262 messages
47 pages of nit pickers and bellyachers wafting farts at each other.
#1174
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 09:00
CroGamer002
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- Members
- 20 672 messages
Drake_Hound wrote...
Bourne Endeavor wrote...
Drake_Hound wrote...
LoL listening to smudboy , makes me sleep already >.<
People like him ? hahah his voice already irritate me .
perfect voice for a troll , I already imagine trolls with those voices .
Who really watched the 6 video with that voice XD
I have watched his entire analysis for everything, twice actually. Quite intriguing even if we do not completely agree.
hahah then you definetly need to use voicechat a bit more , even my GF agrees smudboy voice makes her fall asleep.
You sure have a lot of patience or maybe you should just call him up , and date him
I'm very negative with smudboy but his voice is pretty good.
#1175
Posté 11 avril 2011 - 09:01
CroGamer002
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- 20 672 messages
Niddy' wrote...
guy arguing against smud sounds like a angry teen girl after someone said Justin Bieber was a terrible singer.
You sure you watched right video?
