[quote]Il Divo wrote...
And if we were discussing the graphics you might have had a point. Bioware is well-known for implementing dialogue which could potentially never see the light of day. Including more dialogue between squadmates does not fall under 'technological advancement' as I understand it. It’s the equivalent of arguing that Mass Effect 2 should have had a ‘better plot’ because of technological advancement.
On the other hand, if you want a better comparison, we did have a five year gap between Kotor and Mass Effect 1. Yet, for all its 'cinematic' quality, Mass Effect's companion dialogue was no more advanced, filled with the same talking head syndrome. It may as well been Baldur’s Gate I for all the advancment it had.
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And the lack of banter is a weakness in ME 1. But two years later, DAO set a new standard for it. One year after that, ME2...eliminated it entirely
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And that’s fine, until you realize that ‘squad feedback’ doesn’t usually lead anywhere. There were only so many times that Bastila could criticize me for harming an innocent before I started wondering how she could simply let it continue. The same for Liara and the Rachni queen.
As I said, my attention is focused on the task at hand, not why my party isn't commenting on why I decided to go left instead of right, or why Shepard had to go to the bathroom. [/quote]
Let me draw a coparison: People seemed to despise the copy/paste backgrounds of ME 1 and DA2. I, on the other hand, despise copy/paste squadmates who cannot even acknowledge what is happening around them.
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Actually, Han Solo would be a great example of an extraordinary character. The problem is that you are equating ‘extraordinary’ with ‘superhero’ as demonstrated by the Mass Effect 2 cast. This is not the case. Carth has an extraordinary background which is very different than anything in 'ordinary' life. Again, how many people can you say you’ve met whose goal is to murder someone who once betrayed them? [/quote]
I am sort of using "extraordinary" and "superheroic" interchangably. But that's probably because I use the term "exceptional" to describe characters who have skills beyond the mundane, but are still essentially "mere mortals" Shepard, for example, is an N7 marine. Best-of-the-best Special Forces who had already survived at least one horrific event. But in the end, he was still "only human". At least before he got turned into a cyborg killing machine
Carth was much the same way, a decorated Republic officer. Exceptional, certainly, but not unique in the galaxy as a whole. And that's part of teh charm: The threat always looms larger when you don't have a "Chosen One" to stand against it: you have to face it yourself.
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Yet, your comparison is still difficult to maintain. Ashley’s (potential) shift is still not equitable to the Hero’s Journey, as demonstrated in other mediums. Although a brick, Shepard himself is undergoing the Hero’s Journey, not Ashley. That’s why the ordinary person in extraordinary circumstances doesn’t work out so much for her, not when the character is so extrenuous. [/quote]
Now who said anything about the Hero's Journey?
As far as I'm concerned, the entire squad is playing the Adventuring Party, and I'm just the leader. Others can change as well, depending on the circumstances. Sam did. Han did. Dawn Star could. If Shepard can be changed by his adventures, so could his companions.
Oh, wait. Shepard's a brick
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Hmm? Angsty? I hope you’re not attempting to imply that Garrus would be Bioware’s first ‘angsty’ character. If so, I’d like to direct your attention towards Carth, Juhani, Sagacious Zu, or even Wrex, amongst others.
I also preferred Garrus in Mass Effect 2. His dialogue with Shepard was much improved; the two actually felt like Brothers in Arms compared to his weak dialogue in Mass Effect. [/quote]
Nope. Angsty can be good. Provided it's not overdone ::coughJackcough::. It's the superhero bit that really bugs me. Well, that and he's apparantly learned nothing from the Dr Saleon incident.
I'd give the Brother in Arms award to jacob myself. He strikes me as being a sort of "Shepard if he'd lived through those two years"
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Again, this would not be the first Bioware game where companion quests were self-contained. The only difference is that they were given a far grander scale in Mass Effect 2. It showed us that Miranda did have a soft side, but why should it have to change her thoughts on the mission? [[/quote]
Because it gave her the plot armor to survive the mission? This is the first Bioware game where assembling the team and doing their personal missions was central to the game. Not missing colonies. Not the Collectors. Not even the Reapers. Therefore, I expected a greater degree of integration into the story. To see the fruits of my labors paying off in something beyond a costume change. But when you get down to it, they're no more relevant to the story than any other side mission. Take Alistair to visit Goldanna. Track down Kolyat for Thane. Sure the missions themselves are great, but what do they have to do with surviving a suicide mission? Bringing a team together?.
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Yet, if you remove his circumstances, you’ve also radically changed the characteristics that gave him that personality in the first place. If Alistair is now a circle mage, then his experiences are going to be quite different, and part of what made him so compelling as the reluctant bastard son of a king have now changed. The story itself has now changed.[/quote]
So a Circle Mage Alistair can't be irreverent, humerous, and have an aversion to authority? Better tell Anders
[quote] Hell, look at Malcolm Reynolds and how bitter he’s become. Imagine all that without knowing about the war. He’d feel like a very different character without understanding his background. [/quote]
Oh I agree. On the other hand, how interesting would he be without a crew to interact with? Or rather, a crew to interact with him?
It's like Shepard said to Miranda: "Your spirit and your personality are what make you great. What makes anyone great."
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And this is where I (as usual) disagree. Comparatively speaking, we spend far less time becoming acquainted with Ashley’s “story” than we do with Carth, Canderous, or Thane. This is what I mean by every character following a clear ‘arc’. To some degree, we have an idea where these characters and their conversations are going, and we get to learn about their backgrounds in the process.
With Canderous, we learn about how he became a Mandalorian Commander, how the war ended, and why the Mandalorian clans have fallen into despair.
Carth has the betrayal arc, etc. With Thane, we follow his training as an assassin, the interesting encounter with his wife, vengeance arc, etc.
With Ashley? Well, today we might discuss the military, tomorrow we might discuss her younger sister, or poetry, or religion…it feels aimless, in comparison. The type of interactions I could get with Ashley I could have with any ordinary person, which is ultimately all Ashley is. Boring, to say the least, compared to many of the other characters' backgrounds. Good thing Tali is there, or I'd have to put her last.
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Ashley's "arc" is comapratively small. Essentially, it's her family. Her father. Her sisters. And ultimately, her grandfather. Her story isn't a grand betrayal, or a fallen empire, or even the training of an alien order of assassins. It's one family who takes life's lumps and deals with it
"Do you ever hear me ask for help? It's not that bad things don't happen to me.... But I deal with them myself. I don't need a shoulder to cry on, a knight to rescue me, or a man to make me happy. This is who I am. I like her "
That's the "special kind of thickheaded" I want to see fighting the Reapers!
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And while I will admit that Kaidan has a clear arc, as a character I also found him lacking though for different reasons. Kaidan is a love interest. For female Shepards. If you’re a femshep romancing Kaidan, great. On the other hand, once he finishes his story, there’s nothing more to the character. In Kaidan’s case, the problem is due to his arc being unfinished.
This is where ‘baggage’ should have entered the picture, and why I find Kaidan bland. I couldn’t romance Carth in Kotor 1, but there was still a clear reconciliation between our two characters as he came to terms with his betrayal. This is even the case for most Bioware party members (Thane, Alistair, take your pick). In other words, he doesn’t have a clear development in the way that Carth does (ironic since they share a voice actor). Kaidan is essentially ‘half a Carth’ if you take my meaning. [/quote]
And here I was thinking how Jack would have been much more interesting if she had been more Kaidan-like
I mean, they sort of mirror each other. Their early backgrounds as basically lab rats for human biotics. Jack could have been a "Kaidan who couldn't handle it" and broke under the pressure. But her story went way off the deep end.
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Hardly. Sten is Sten because of his backstory, people, and personality. Try taking the cookies out of Sten versus his backstory. I guarantee you the latter is more essential than the former. [/quote]
ANd here I think if you took the cookies out of the story you would have one Sten pretty much like any of the Stens you face in DA2
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Nonsense. If you want an effective comparison, look to Kotor. Every companion has a definite reason to accompany Revan: Carth wants Saul, Bastila is a famous Jedi with visions, Zaalbar has the life debt, etc.
Most of your Mass Effect squad is merely along for the ride. Ashley wants to 'prove herself', Kaidan had no motivation, Wrex is a merc. As it is, Shepard isn’t even part of the Alliance officially; Ashley could easily be 'proving herself' anywhere in the galaxy. [/quote]
Ash and Kaidan are Alliance Marines assigned to the Normandy. Both witnessed Eden Prime. Ash
survived Eden Prime when her entire unit died. I'd call those personal and professional reasons. Each of the aliens has a reason for being on board too.
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More than a few had opinions on all these topics. Shepard has the opportunity to ask Garrus his thoughts on Cerberus, as well as what he thinks of the Collector threat. The same with Tali. You are given an analysis of the Prothean-Collector connection from Mordin, and Samara actually tells you about her own encounter with the Collectors.
The squadmates who don't comment are simply the ones who don't care, namely Grunt and Jack. Which is fine. Kotor and Jade Empire had their share of party members who didn't really 'care' about events. Ex; Black Whirlwind.[/quote]
Given that they are brought aboard specifically for a Suicide Mission, I'd have expected more curiosity. I mean, how many Black Whirwinds/HK-47s can you fit on one ship?
While Samara recounts her one run-in with the Collectors, she specifically does
not want to know why Shepard is after them. Mordin is the only one who comments on the Prothean connection, despite the fact that htis puts the Prothean exctinction in a new, even more horrifying light. Tali is the only alien to show any reservation whatsoever at working for Cerberus (Okay, Garrus does an"are you sure about this?" line, but I'd expect a similar reaction if Shep was working fro C-Sec). No one, as far as I know, brings up the Reaper connection at all.
Modifié par iakus, 11 avril 2011 - 09:39 .
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no she doesn´t have too anymore .
