1198 réponses à ce sujet

[Mynoot]

People like Smudboy whine about ME2 waaaay too much and go into too much detail. I mean most movies had more plot holes than ME2. Say Back to the Future, the Flux Capacitor is just about "scientific jargon" as much as bring Shepard back to life is.

Sure, if they can find enough DNA after decompression, re-entry and impact to rebuild him.  Sorry, but I'm in agreement with Smud.  That is too much physical and logical falacy to disregard.

[Redem0]

I think perhaps a better loyalty mission for Miranda would have resolve investigating the events around the Lazarus project, play a little bit of tension of wheterer or not Miranda or Wilson was the traitor (although admintly it would have been hard to believe if only because of how much importance Miranda has compare to Wilson).

I for one though it was more than light was reflecting on Shepard armor than him burning in entry, but perhaps I am wrong

Modifié par Redem0, 09 mars 2011 - 04:01 .

[morrie23]

Redem0 wrote...
I for one though it was more than light was reflecting on Shepard armor than him burning in entry, but perhaps I am wrong

ME Genesis shows Shep buring up [pic].

[Redem0]

morrie23 wrote...

Redem0 wrote...
I for one though it was more than light was reflecting on Shepard armor than him burning in entry, but perhaps I am wrong

ME Genesis shows Shep buring up [pic].

Fair enough, I didn't see that one

Still like like my interpretation

Modifié par Redem0, 09 mars 2011 - 04:06 .

[morrie23]

Redem0 wrote...

Fair enough, I didn't see that one

Still like like my interpretation

Well it does make the Lazarus Project slightly less unbelievable

[glacier1701]

Lumikki wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...

In the case of Shepard's revival 3 unchangeable rules of physical biochemistry are broken. 

What physical rules are you talking?

 (1) The human body is composed of a great amount of water. The unfortunate aspect is that when it turns from a liquid, the form it is present in in our bodies within cells, to a solid it expands. This expansion has the unfortunate side effect of destroying cells. This includes brain cells. 

 (2) The brain itself is not just cells but also composed of chemical and neuroelectrical signals that all together make up the person and their personality. At death the chemical and electrical signals go away (through degradation of the chemicals into others OR lack of the neuroelectrical signals being sustained by bodily processes). The cells themselves will decay unless prevented (which in this case is what is supposed to happen) but the neuroelectrical signals stop.

 (3) Oxygen starvation - which is what kills Shepard - has very nasty effects upon brain cells. They die!!! People can be revived but if the brain has too much damage then they are never the same as they were. Its why CPR is worthwhile since it stops that process. 


 These are facts and each actually occurs within Shepard. We are then asked that WITHOUT a blueprint or brain scan these effects can be reversed such that no-one can tell the difference between the old and new Shepard with a hand wave that it took 2 years and 4 billion credits and cutting edge technology. This is not to say that it could not happen but if you dont have a blueprint of what was there in the past how can you rebuild it? And we have no indication that such a 'blueprint' was available. This is part of what makes writing good or bad. If you introduce a concept you give it an adequate explanation and anticipate questions that might be asked by answering them within that explanation. This is NOT done in ME2.

 Little thought was put into this since the whole point seems to have been just for dramatic effect and to force us into working with Cerberus. In and of itself its not too great of a problem but we keep on running into these kinds of things and the cumulative effect is a lack of overal believability. I will reiterate that what we did get within ME2 is not something that could not have happened but too much is brought in from out of the blue as a DEUS EX MACHINA and then bypassed. Anyways this is not the place to dwell on this much more.

Modifié par glacier1701, 09 mars 2011 - 04:09 .

[Whatever42]

Lizardviking wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
Seriously, uber complainments about the "Wilson thing" for example, is something that used to ****** me off. I mean, the character is completely irrelevant to the plot of ME2 or to the ME universe. His role was to just bring a challenge on the tutorial level, after that he wasn't mentioned anymore, no other role before Lazarus Project, no other importance to the continuity whatsoever. What's this character does of such importance that his motivations are so important to the plot? Sometimes bad guys are bad guys and in this case, what's the problem with it? This is guy is completely uninteresting, unimportante, irrelevant. Also, in the logs on the station we have some expositions of his unsatisfaction on the project. Nitpicking about things like that is what makes most of smudboy's analysis nitpicky to the point of being silly.

I think all the complaints against Wilson would not be there if it went like this.

Wilson: Through here, the shuttle bay is just beyond the next door!
[Door opens and Miranda is there]
Wilson: Miranda?! Wha [Gets shot]
Jacob: What the hell are you doing?!
Miranda: My job. Wilson was working for the shadow broker.

That would be one line to change, and would give a proper reason for Wilson to go postal. And yes, i'm quite aware LOTSB does exactly what I said, but would it be so hard to just add it in the main-game?

But she didn't know and that says something about her character. Again, not everything needs to be explained. Things happen in everyone's life every single day that we don't completely understand. It's never really explored because Shepard doesn't really care and why should Shepard care? Why should the reader care?

[Whatever42]

Mynoot wrote...

People like Smudboy whine about ME2 waaaay too much and go into too much detail. I mean most movies had more plot holes than ME2. Say Back to the Future, the Flux Capacitor is just about "scientific jargon" as much as bring Shepard back to life is.

Sure, if they can find enough DNA after decompression, re-entry and impact to rebuild him.  Sorry, but I'm in agreement with Smud.  That is too much physical and logical falacy to disregard.

People have survived falls of tens-of-thousands of feet. Its not completely inconceivable that there was enough of Shepard left to rebuild but its a massive stretch, I will freely admit. Personally, I think Sovereign fainting at the end of ME1 is equally impossible, just less obvious. And its a far bigger deal. I also think Imperial engineers missing a vent that could allow the Death Star to blown up is pretty stupid and a far more important plot point. That the rebel engineers found it in just mere hours just adds injury to insult.

BTW, if Smudboy would have stopped there, there really wouldn't be a lot of debate. I know this is a good hill for plot hole critics to fight on because its one of your strongest positions but its when you keep digging for 6 parts where people go WTF?

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 09 mars 2011 - 04:20 .

[morrie23]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Why should the reader care?

Well for me, because he went from rebuilding Shep to trying to kill Shep in the space of 5 minutes from our POV, it's pretty abrupt and caused me to have the first of many wtf moments.  An extra line explaining what was going on would of been nice.

[Redem0]

morrie23 wrote...

Redem0 wrote...

Fair enough, I didn't see that one

Still like like my interpretation

Well it does make the Lazarus Project slightly less unbelievable

The way I made sense of Lazarus (which I have to admit was base on my faulty understanding of the intro) was that essentially some sort cryogenic phenomena happened to Shepard as he was in the depth of space (sure the planet he landed on was pretty cold, but still) and that somehow conserve him, essentially Lazarus essentially is reamination from a technically dead state, but in a way somewhat like being brain dead (only much more furhter down the line)

(ok its still very much a strench, but I think it sound less like Cerberus were working with a rotting cadaver and more with something with a small tiny bit of life inside of it they could use to bring it back to life)

[Whatever42]

morrie23 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Why should the reader care?

Well for me, because he went from rebuilding Shep to trying to kill Shep in the space of 5 minutes from our POV, it's pretty abrupt and caused me to have the first of many wtf moments.  An extra line explaining what was going on would of been nice.

Sure, but its not important to the story, Shepard has bigger things to care about so exploring that issue probably isn't important to them, and people do unexplained things all the time. Hell, even with years of historical analysis, many people's actions still confuse the hell out of us. I have had friends which have made massive blunders and years later, I still scratch my head and wonder why they did it.

That doesn't mean there are not plausible explanations. That does not mean that they're worth exploring inside of the story. That does not mean that not exploring them is a plot hole.

[morrie23]

Yes, people do unexplained things (in real life), problem is in fiction if too many things go unexplained the story starts to suffer, holes start to open up and the plot can start to fall apart because you start looking for the holes.

I'm not asking for reams of exposition on why Wilson did what he did, one line is all, just to save a WTF? moment at the very start of the game (LotSB goes some way to fixing it, but it shouldn't been a problem in the first place).

Modifié par morrie23, 09 mars 2011 - 04:42 .

[Lumikki]

glacier1701 wrote...

 (1) The human body is composed of a great amount of water. The unfortunate aspect is that when it turns from a liquid, the form it is present in in our bodies within cells, to a solid it expands. This expansion has the unfortunate side effect of destroying cells. This includes brain cells.

Yes, I agree, but...

(2) The brain itself is not just cells but also composed of chemical and neuroelectrical signals that all together make up the person and their personality. At death the chemical and electrical signals go away (through degradation of the chemicals into others OR lack of the neuroelectrical signals being sustained by bodily processes). The cells themselves will decay unless prevented (which in this case is what is supposed to happen) but the neuroelectrical signals stop.

I agree, but...

(3) Oxygen starvation - which is what kills Shepard - has very nasty effects upon brain cells. They die!!! People can be revived but if the brain has too much damage then they are never the same as they were. Its why CPR is worthwhile since it stops that process.

Again I agree, but...

Thanks for answer.

How ever, but you base you conclusions in todays technology and knowledge, not Mass Effects technology. Now I agree that some chemical and physical things happens, because they are law of nature. How ever, that doens't mean you can't go around them.

Example Shepards spacesuit could handle very different temperatures, so no freezing. You also base laws in cell with neural electrical signals, based what we know now. Suit could also put Shepard in coma like situation, what reduse brain damage. I mean who says, brain can't be restarted in future.

You assume that when cells get damages it gets impossible. What if those cells could be repaired. Then restart the brain somehow. Now we could then argue about personality, can it be contained, if cells would be rebuild. Where is the human memories, is it in chemical and electrical changes in brain or links between cells what has been build by experience. If the memories are in cells so that  they lose integrity of memories very fast, then memories could not bring back. How ever, if the cell damage isn't affecting memory lost so fast, then there is possibility make copy of those neutral paths and rebuild them, when cells is repaired. What would bring the memories back.

I'm not arguing what you sayed isn't true now. I'm arguing are you REALLY sure in future anyting can't be done. Do we really know the brain so well and is out technology level so high. Example tehnological solution, energy field to prevent any changes in brain or copy of brain as backup image. Yeah, I know what I talk is just amateurs mumbling, but while I understand what you say and I agree. I would not be so sure that future doesn't give other options to go around of these problems.

Okey, about the blue-print. Do we really need to know technical design, when we can't even understand how it could be done. It's like trying to figure what could be done, but has no point of referense, because it seem impossible. Does it make bad script that game developers doesn't try to explain it? How could they explain it? Except say cells get repaired and so on.. like it did in the game.

In general I think this is more like situation, we don't know how it could be done, but we can't sure say it can't be done. There is huge amouth of TV-series where people have bringed back to life and no-one is requesting explanation for it. Just by magic or hand of God. Why is technology based any different if we don't really know any reason why it could not done, as absolute fact. As long we see something reasonable in scifi and it doesn't go totally agaist our current knowledge, we don't need to know every detail how.

Modifié par Lumikki, 09 mars 2011 - 05:04 .

[Whatever42]

morrie23 wrote...

Yes, people do unexplained things (in real life), problem is in fiction if too many things go unexplained the story starts to suffer, holes start to open up and the plot can start to fall apart because you start looking for the holes.

I'm not asking for reams of exposition on why Wilson did what he did, one line is all, just to save a WTF? moment at the very start of the game (LotSB goes some way to fixing it, but it shouldn't been a problem in the first place).

I won't disagree with you that fiction needs to make sense (while real life can seem frustratingly random at times) but I bet you not 1 in a 100 people wondering about Wilson. The logs and your interaction clearly showed him as a disgruntled ass with a huge ego. Shepard showed some curiousity about why Wilson betrayed them and who he was working for (now we can't question him) but the answer wasn't available and Shepard moved on. It wasn't ignored, there simply wasn't an answer.

That Bioware threw us a bone and told us in LotSB was nice but not really necessary. And its not like ME2 is full of characters doing totally random things. If there were a dozen Wilson's in the game I would probably wonder what hell was going on . But there wasn't.

[Whatever42]

This will teach me to click on the submit button more than once.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 09 mars 2011 - 04:58 .

[Whatever42]

Wow... lag.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 09 mars 2011 - 04:58 .

[Whatever42]

Double post.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 09 mars 2011 - 04:58 .

[Iakus]

squee913 wrote...

Element Zero was explained with even less hand waving. "When mixed with electricity it creates a field that changes the mass of an object"  End of story. How this is possible is never remotely explored, because we have no clue. Sure, Shep might be curious as to how he was brought back, and then again he might not care. Depends on the kind of Shepard you are running. Is it so hard to believe that Shep would simply go, "I don't care how they did it. All that matters is they did it! Now I can go back to work!" As I've said before, I feel it would be really cool to explore how it affects him, but it is not really important to the story (Collectors and Reapers destroying the Galaxy) You don't see Sheridan from B5 saying, "Wait... how did you bring me back? I mean what are the details? did you use electricity to start my heart or something? NO no no, I don't care about why you brought me back, I want to know how you did it!!" 

If you want to play a Shep who's really focuses on the mission, or extremely stoic, or otherwise not curious about his death and ressurection, I say go for it.  That's role-playing, and I support that option.  I'll just go and play one who wants to know how Cerberus got their hands on this bit of tech no other race has or even suspects, that managed to restore the main character back from the dead...

Oh wait...

As for B5, it's clearly something Sheridan can't understand, nor Delenn.  Lorien couches it in words like "I cannot create life, but I can breathe on the embers.  It may not work"  Not much of an answer, but it's better than "it was really really expensive"  Plus at least we know it was First One technology.  For all we know, the Lazarus Project came about from submitting 4 billion cereal box tops.

The codex only talks about what element zero does, not how it does it. It has lots of codex entries because it is a difficult concept that needs to be explained. Bringing shep back to life is a simple concept. Would it really change anything if there had been a codex entry that says, "Shepard was brought back to life using the advanced methods and techniques of the Laz Project. This technique can work on any human and generally takes about two years to complete depending on the damage." Because that is all the entries about mass effect really do... explain the result, not the how.

"Shepard was brought back to life through a highly specialized use of mass effect fields to perform microscopic surgery to restore cellular damage.  Combined with vorcha stem cell treatments and cybernetics, he was restored to full functionality.  Most of his memories wer restored through memory imprints and a top-secret "gray box" technology stolen from the Alliance" 

Okay, it would need some work.  But I wouldn't need much more than that to create a satisfactory explanation.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Epic quadruple post, Whatever! XD

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I think all the complaints against Wilson would not be there if it went like this.

Wilson: Through here, the shuttle bay is just beyond the next door!
[Door opens and Miranda is there]
Wilson: Miranda?! Wha [Gets shot]
Jacob: What the hell are you doing?!
Miranda: My job. Wilson was working for the shadow broker.

That would be one line to change, and would give a proper reason for Wilson to go postal. And yes, i'm quite aware LOTSB does exactly what I said, but would it be so hard to just add it in the main-game?
[/quote]

But she didn't know and that says something about her character. Again, not everything needs to be explained. Things happen in everyone's life every single day that we don't completely understand. It's never really explored because Shepard doesn't really care and why should Shepard care? Why should the reader care? [/quote]

I know Miranda did not know about it. Which is why I am suggesting that that specific fact in the story should have been changed. Miranda should have known that there was a SB agent among them. There should be an investigation option for the more curious Shepards where Miranda will explain that she had already started to suspect Wilson before the whole thing began. Which resulted in Wilson carrying out his plan earlier than intented, and why things did not go the way he planned.

[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Sure, but its not important to the story.
[/quote]

It is somewhat important considering it is the entire set-up for the turtorial level.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 09 mars 2011 - 06:35 .

[Whatever42]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Epic quadruple post, Whatever! XD

I get too excited when I click.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
Seriously, uber complainments about the "Wilson thing" for example, is something that used to ****** me off. I mean, the character is completely irrelevant to the plot of ME2 or to the ME universe. His role was to just bring a challenge on the tutorial level, after that he wasn't mentioned anymore, no other role before Lazarus Project, no other importance to the continuity whatsoever. What's this character does of such importance that his motivations are so important to the plot? Sometimes bad guys are bad guys and in this case, what's the problem with it? This is guy is completely uninteresting, unimportante, irrelevant. Also, in the logs on the station we have some expositions of his unsatisfaction on the project. Nitpicking about things like that is what makes most of smudboy's analysis nitpicky to the point of being silly.

I think all the complaints against Wilson would not be there if it went like this.

Wilson: Through here, the shuttle bay is just beyond the next door!
[Door opens and Miranda is there]
Wilson: Miranda?! Wha [Gets shot]
Jacob: What the hell are you doing?!
Miranda: My job. Wilson was working for the shadow broker.

That would be one line to change, and would give a proper reason for Wilson to go postal. And yes, i'm quite aware LOTSB does exactly what I said, but would it be so hard to just add it in the main-game?

But she didn't know and that says something about her character. Again, not everything needs to be explained. Things happen in everyone's life every single day that we don't completely understand. It's never really explored because Shepard doesn't really care and why should Shepard care? Why should the reader care?

Exactly, it showed something about Miranda's ruthlessness. And I agree with you that NOT EVERYTHING, every plot device, needs to be explained or exposition like we're kids watching a dumb Disney movie that needs to be taken by hand through all the story. Please, we should have more intelligence. That's killing most of the movie industry nowadays for me.
My opinion the subject: people here could come up with theories and more theories that would fit and sometimes, that should be enough. If I can come up with a fitting answer to something that's predictable in a story, the question and the explanation don't really need to be there, does it?

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 09 mars 2011 - 06:52 .

[Almostfaceman]

The resurrection of Shepard is kept purposely vague for several reasons.

1. We don't know how to resurrect someone.
2. It's much more fun to leave the door open for Cerberus shenanigans on this point in Mass Effect 3. Remember, Jacob is the one who tells us the most about how we were brought back to life - and he's no doctor. He's only "pretty sure" that I'm not a clone or any other option. Cerberus probably has access to Shepard's military medical records and they could use that advanced knowledge for all sorts of things - though I would hate to see Shepard vs. himself in Mass Effect 3.

So, the plot hole to me is covered up with Cerberus mystery for possible use in Mass Effect 3.

[Whatever42]

Lizardviking wrote...

I know Miranda did not know about it. Which is why I am suggesting that that specific fact in the story should have been changed. Miranda should have known that there was a SB agent among them. There should be an investigation option for the more curious Shepards where Miranda will explain that she had already started to suspect Wilson before the whole thing began. Which resulted in Wilson carrying out his plan earlier than intented, and why things did not go the way he planned.

It is somewhat important considering it is the entire set-up for the turtorial level.

I'm not really against what you're saying. I agree that it would have been nice if the Wilson story played into the larger plot. Part of the problems I personally had with ME2 was that the tension of the main story kept dropping off. Putting more consistant pressure on Shep from the Collectors and SB, with a little intrigue, would have been better than making Wilson feel kind of random. I don't think its bad writing or anything but it was perhaps a missed opportunity. If you and I were brainstorming a new ME2 plot, I'm sure we'd agree a great deal.

My point is that its not a plothole. Its understandable that Miranda didn't know he was a SB spy at that point. If she even suspected, Miranda would have killed him right there. That's her character.  He never could have betrayed them and then we would have a plot hole. So she's couldn't have known. All she knew at that point was that he betrayed them and she killed him for it because she cautious that way. It wasn't worth the risk to keep him around.

It's also understandable that no part of the story focused on figuring out why Wilson was a traitor. Perhaps TIM undertook an investigation, perhaps he had his suspicions but Shepard really had much, much, much bigger problems. Its not a plot hole that he didn't care or get involved. It's 100% understandable. Now you or I might have wondered and asked TIM about it at one point but is it reasonably conceivable that someone didn't care enough about it to ask? Sure. Easily.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 09 mars 2011 - 07:09 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Regarding Shepard's death.

I wouldn't really care about the technical details regarding how Shepard was brought back, as long as we got some good storytelling out of it. Which I felt we did not recieve.

Death of an important character should be a big thing. Having an important character return from the dead, should be even bigger.