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Remember the time Smudboy made his 6-part video on ME2 plot analysis? Cross-examination given (completed)


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#176
William Adama

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SSV Enterprise wrote...

William Adama wrote...

Are you a Star wars Prequel fan?

Did you enjoy the Clash of the Titans remake? War or the worlds remake? Matrix Reloaded? Tranformers?

There are vast amounts of people in the world that actually enjoyed those movies because they looked pretty, even though they were terrible films. That's the kind of people that actively POLL on those sites, casual gamers.

Did you, GASP, even think that the majority of those scores may have come from people who DONT EVEN HAVE THE GAME?! I know for a fact that MOST people on GS reader scores review games that they THINK LOOKS GOOD or are just scoring high because a game recieved critical acclaim.

Dare to be different is not something the average human wants to be. People like to conform, and its people like these that dont bring anything special to society.


You, sir, are an idiot.  You claim that the "fans" hated ME2 and saw it as a step back from ME1, without any sort of proof.  When proof was posted that the opinion of the majority saw ME2 as a very good game and an improvement over ME1, you whine WAAAAAAH THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE THE GAME.  With NO proof besides your puny little opinion.

Come back when you have actual evidence that most people thought ME2 was worse than ME1.


No, I said ME2 was a poor game period.

If you thought the game had a coherent story, play it again and really think about what was actually going on and the motives behind the characters.

And BTW, I enjoy being called an idiot, because that means that my analysis of a topic is so logical that it invokes an emotional response in my readers. I want everyone to attack me, because that means Im getting people to think about what kind of game they assimilated and the issues surrounding it because that kind of analysis is necessary to incite a reply.

#177
Elite Midget

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I don't always agree with Smudboy but isn't this a bit much?

Modifié par Elite Midget, 14 mars 2011 - 07:58 .


#178
SSV Enterprise

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William Adama wrote...

No, I said ME2 was a poor game period.


William Adama wrote...

They pissed off people who were already fans of the series, thats BAD.


Nope, you claimed that "fans" of the series didn't like ME2.  While a minority didn't (as is the case with every single sequel, ever) you made it sound like the majority didn't like ME2.

If you thought the game had a coherent story, play it again and really think about what was actually going on and the motives behind the characters.


I've played the game many times, and it holds up.

And BTW, I enjoy being called an idiot, because that means that my analysis of a topic is so logical that it invokes an emotional response in my readers. I want everyone to attack me, because that means Im getting people to think about what kind of game they assimilated and the issues surrounding it because that kind of analysis is necessary to incite a reply.


So being called an idiot...means you're logical...the idiocy has just gone up by a factor of ten.

Modifié par SSV Enterprise, 14 mars 2011 - 07:58 .


#179
Zulu_DFA

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piemanz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

piemanz wrote...

1.I honestly don't remember him saying specifcly "we're going to destroy the collector base"...i could be wrong though.Either way it's not something i would personelly fret over.But it obviously bothers you and you're entitled to that i guess.

"Our mission was to destroy the base" - is what Shepard says when TIM pops up and requests to use the neutron purge. This is a piece of flat out sloppy writing, because it has never been discussed or brought up, even as Shepard assembed the team in the Comm Room prior to embarking onto the Base.

It was wasn't it?.The mission was to stop the collectors going into the relay, but once there it changed for obvious reason to destroying the base.

The only thing that is obvious about destroying the base is that it's that this choice is based on a whole bunch of assumptions, which, like you've correctly pointed out, are mother of all f*ck-ups.

Assumption One: We won't need it to stop the Reapers... but let's dismiss the Reapers for the moment (since it's pretty much is what Shepard does himself by saying that the "mission was to destroy the Base").

Assumption Two: The Base is all that the Collectors have in terms of facilities, resources and operations... which can't be even verified as soon as you blow it up. Now even if the Base could help us for example track down a possible another Collector Cruiser if there was one, or prevent a dispersal of an improved version of the Omega plague by another Vorcha gang, etc.

Assumption Three: Should you get back to your Council friends, they aren't going to airquote you (Ah, yes, "Collector Base in the Galactic core"...) to death.

Etc, etc, etc.


piemanz wrote...

I don't see how this is sloppy or even hard to grasp, does it really need to be spelled out?.I mean did you think you were heading over there for a sightseeing tour?

I was heading there to:

1. Learn what the Collectors were, you know, collecting people for.

2. Gain clear understanding of the Collectors' connection to the Reapers, and the details of the reaping cycle.

3. If possible, gain some advantage against the Reapers.

Neither of these tasks is accomplished by destroying the Base, and even re No.1 it remains unclear why they needed to melt people instead of iron ore to build them Reapers, why they needed the Human-Reaper at all, etc, etc.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 mars 2011 - 07:58 .


#180
piemanz

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

snip


You make good points, and you've obviously put some thought into it.I won't completley dismiss them but may i suggest that maybe you're missing something.

While you're points are all nicely thought out and all, you seem to forget who Shepard is and what he does best.He kills things and blows things up.This is why i thought it was fairly obvious what the mission parameters would be going into the base and why it's left to the illusive man to give you an alternative option.

#181
JKoopman

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Using review scores to back up claims--even user review score--is tricky. Without reading every individual review and forming a general consensus--or even trully knowing whether the same people who reviewed ME2 actually played ME1 and thus have anything to compare to--you have no basis for saying what's better and what's worse. Someone who's more a fan of shooters like CoD or Gears of War may very well look at the gameplay changes made in ME2 and say "I like this more than I liked ME1's gameplay" and not even factor anything regarding story into their rating. You can try to counter the arguments presented as to why the story is bad and why you think it's not, but to simply say that "Well, the community over on IGN gave it a 9.2" doesn't indicate in any way what aspects of the game were improved or show that some aspects of the game didn't actually come out worse.

Furthermore, majority approval does not equate to quality. A great many people think McDonald's hamburgers are great or enjoy Taco Bell burritos, but that doesn't make it fine dining or change the fact that Taco Bell's beef has about a 7% actual meat content. A great many people pay real money to go see Michael Bay movies and, in point of fact, brainless Hollywood summer blockbusters routinely outperform thought-provoking, artistic independent films at the box office. That doesn't make them better films. As much as it pains me to say it, the Star Wars prequel trilogy that even piemanz professes to hate actually made more money at the box office than the original trilogy by a significant margin. Could we infer from that that the prequel trilogy is actually better than the original? In truth, the majority of people wouldn't know quality if it bit them on the ass.

See, that's the problem. BioWare has apparently stopped caring about putting out quality products and maintaining their pristine reputation. Ever since EA got it's slimy tentacles in them, all they're concerned with now is money, and they get the most money by catering to the lowest common denominator; as evidenced by Mass Effect 2 and now Dragon Age 2. Why bother putting out something highbrow and impeccable when they can just slap some processed cheese and soggy lettuce on a gray patty vaguely resembling meat and rake in more money?

Lastly, as far as opinions go, the people who post one-paragraph reviews on IGN are casual fans with no real vested interest in the franchise. The people who've been active members of the BioWare community for years and have spent much of the last 13 months arguing passionately against many of the design changes made in the sequel are TRUE fans who actually care about the direction the series is taking.

#182
Iakus

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squee913 wrote...


Am I to assume that you also hate empire strikes back because Han Solo was frozen
in carbonite( don't know if that's spelled right :P)? We are never shown, right
up until Vader says it's going to happen 5 minutes before it does, that any
sort of carbon freezing people technology exists.  Nada.  Zip. 
Zilch.  This is not part of the galaxy described to us, even in
foreshadowing. You are basically saying that Bioware is not allowed to
introduce new concepts part way into a story. If it is not in the title or
explained in the first chapter, you can't add  it.


Han being frozen in carbonite is being shown.  They were testing it to see if Luke could survive the process.  The device they were using was for freezing gas mined from Bespin (Cloud City was a mining facility) and it was jury-rigged as a way to incapacitate Luke.  But they weren't sure a human could survive being frozen.  The whole scene, touching as it was for Han, Leia, and Chewie, was really just a science experiment to Vader.

If something like that was added to ME 2:

TIM, Miranda, and Jacob are walking through a...lab?   Operating room?  Bank of computer terminals?

TIM:  This facility took some jury-rigging, but should suffice for the Lazarus Project.

Miranda: But this technology was originally meant to reconstruct salarian tissue.  Do we have any idea what it will do to humans?  Or what it might do to Shepard's mind?

Jacob:  She's right. If we didn't set this up properly, it could destroy the remains.  Or leave him nothing but a mindless husk.  Then we'll have nothing.  We only have one shot at this.

TIM:  Then we will have to test it and make sure.  Wilson!  A moment please!

::Wilson walks over, Miranda shoots him dead::

TIM:   Let's see what four billion credits buys us.

Jacob:  If Wilson wakes up, he's not gonna be happy.

I agree they have nothing to do with each other. That's
probably why I never said I believe in Shepard's resurrection "Because" FTL travel
exists in the game. I never stated anything that could be remotely seen as making that
statement. I simply said that they are both impossible with the science and
tech we have now. On the other hand, the statement I was arguing stated that we
should be able to solve heat distribution problems "Because"
we have resurrected people.


My apologies then.  Too many people seem to take the position that "if this is true, then why not that?"  As if a single precedent of impossibility (in our world) opens the floodgates of anything that can be imagined.

#183
StowyMcStowstow

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I'm not sure how many of you also partake in the forums of The Escapist... but he began a thread about ME2's plot there. It ended about as well as you'd think.

In this video, the guy talks about how he doesn't know if smudboy is pompus. He is. So very much. He picked apart every arguement that even remotely went against his, and disregarded any logical arguement against his. Lulz were had, and so were pages and pages of arguements. Most people just stopped talking to him.

#184
piemanz

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JKoopman wrote...

Using review scores to back up claims--even user review score--is tricky. Without reading every individual review and forming a general consensus--or even trully knowing whether the same people who reviewed ME2 actually played ME1 and thus have anything to compare to--you have no basis for saying what's better and what's worse. Someone who's more a fan of shooters like CoD or Gears of War may very well look at the gameplay changes made in ME2 and say "I like this more than I liked ME1's gameplay" and not even factor anything regarding story into their rating. You can try to counter the arguments presented as to why the story is bad and why you think it's not, but to simply say that "Well, the community over on IGN gave it a 9.2" doesn't indicate in any way what aspects of the game were improved or show that some aspects of the game didn't actually come out worse.

Furthermore, majority approval does not equate to quality. A great many people think McDonald's hamburgers are great or enjoy Taco Bell burritos, but that doesn't make it fine dining or change the fact that Taco Bell's beef has about a 7% actual meat content. A great many people pay real money to go see Michael Bay movies and, in point of fact, brainless Hollywood summer blockbusters routinely outperform thought-provoking, artistic independent films at the box office. That doesn't make them better films. As much as it pains me to say it, the Star Wars prequel trilogy that even piemanz professes to hate actually made more money at the box office than the original trilogy by a significant margin. Could we infer from that that the prequel trilogy is actually better than the original? In truth, the majority of people wouldn't know quality if it bit them on the ass.

See, that's the problem. BioWare has apparently stopped caring about putting out quality products and maintaining their pristine reputation. Ever since EA got it's slimy tentacles in them, all they're concerned with now is money, and they get the most money by catering to the lowest common denominator; as evidenced by Mass Effect 2 and now Dragon Age 2. Why bother putting out something highbrow and impeccable when they can just slap some processed cheese and soggy lettuce on a gray patty vaguely resembling meat and rake in more money?

Lastly, as far as opinions go, the people who post one-paragraph reviews on IGN are casual fans with no real vested interest in the franchise. The people who've been active members of the BioWare community for years and have spent much of the last 13 months arguing passionately against many of the design changes made in the sequel are TRUE fans who actually care about the direction the series is taking.


Agreed, but user reviews are genrally fairly accurate overall .you only have to look at Dragon age user reviews to see that consumers have a way of showing their distaste.

Of course this is not set in stone it's just a rough guide.I'm not suggesting that Mass Effect 2 is a perfect game that can't be improved.And i have no problem with constructive crticism, it just seems that there are certain people on this forum with such negative attitudes that are itent to pick apart every little detail, and more often than not they make absolutly no sense what so ever.

Modifié par piemanz, 14 mars 2011 - 08:55 .


#185
Zulu_DFA

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piemanz wrote...

While you're points are all nicely thought out and all, you seem to forget who Shepard is and what he does best.He kills things and blows things up.This is why i thought it was fairly obvious what the mission parameters would be going into the base and why it's left to the illusive man to give you an alternative option.

Right. That's why I call Shepard "our idiot-hero". He is not exactly a thinker. That doesn't mean the writers should abandon all efforts to clear things up for us players, especially since they don't shun those "3rd person" devices anyway, which, sadly, have only built up confusion so far.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 mars 2011 - 09:01 .


#186
piemanz

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

piemanz wrote...

While you're points are all nicely thought out and all, you seem to forget who Shepard is and what he does best.He kills things and blows things up.This is why i thought it was fairly obvious what the mission parameters would be going into the base and why it's left to the illusive man to give you an alternative option.

Right. That's why I call Shepard "our idiot-hero". He is not exactly a thinker. That doesn't mean the writers should abandon all efforts to clear things up for us players, especially since they don't shun those "3rd person" devices anyway, which, sadly, have only built up confusion so far.


I'm not entirely sure what you're confused about.You have to remeber this is a trilogy and some things have to be left unexplained to keep people wanting more.If you knew everything right now you would'nt need to go out and buy ME3.

#187
Bad King

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Good vids, the guy manages to refute a lot of smudboy's arguments, he even makes a lot of them look silly.

#188
Zulu_DFA

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piemanz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

piemanz wrote...

While you're points are all nicely thought out and all, you seem to forget who Shepard is and what he does best.He kills things and blows things up.This is why i thought it was fairly obvious what the mission parameters would be going into the base and why it's left to the illusive man to give you an alternative option.

Right. That's why I call Shepard "our idiot-hero". He is not exactly a thinker. That doesn't mean the writers should abandon all efforts to clear things up for us players, especially since they don't shun those "3rd person" devices anyway, which, sadly, have only built up confusion so far.

I'm not entirely sure what you're confused about.You have to remeber this is a trilogy and some things have to be left unexplained to keep people wanting more.If you knew everything right now you would'nt need to go out and buy ME3.

I'm not confused at all. I think other people are...

Yes, I know, how arrogant of me. Even as people say it themselves sometimes.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 mars 2011 - 11:43 .


#189
88mphSlayer

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anybody seen the retconning analysis vids by smudboy? i enjoyed those, they reflect a lot of the complaints already voiced on this forum anyways

#190
piemanz

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

..... sometimes.


I'm not sure how to respond to that without sounding like an a**hole.But i dont think you can blame the OP's confusion in that thread on bad writing.Maybe i'm wrong and the answer to his question is not as obvious as it seems to me.

Modifié par piemanz, 15 mars 2011 - 06:23 .


#191
Zulu_DFA

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piemanz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

..... sometimes.


I'm not sure how to respond to that without sounding like an a**hole.But i dont think you can blame the OP's confusion in that thread on bad writing.Maybe i'm wrong and the answer to his question is not as obvious as it seems to me.

Yet "even" the Mass Effect Wiki is confused about this part too. Based on the ME2 intro they think that Ascension occured after Redemption. But the problem is that in Ascension TIM doesn't yet know about the Reaper threat and only expects the intel updates on Sovereign to come to him, and there is still no rumor about Shepard's death, but in the ME2 intro TIM is shown to be aware of the Reapers, and in Redemption Shepard's disappearence (the Normandy's destruction) is quite a widely known fact already. You can't argue with the ME Wiki's admins though...

And then Mac Walters announces that he checks his facts with that Wiki!

So, part of me is still holding on to the fact that the main plot for the entire trilogy is supposed to have been set in stone from the very beginning... But another part of me has to admit (especially after the #3 Evolutiopreview) that in ME3 nothing is really waiting for us but an utter disaster, and the plot will be the first victim of the Reapers.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 mars 2011 - 07:06 .


#192
Pwener2313

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I remember smudboy..... what a retard.

#193
Fat Headed Wolf

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Pwener2313 wrote...

I remember smudboy..... what a retard.


Ha! How.... frank.

If you were on the old forums, however, you may remember someone a trillion times worse (anyone there can vouch for me). His name was Angelw1ng. And he wasn't shy about the insults. 

I think he started his first post by posting a bunch of complaining drivel then saying something along the lines of  "You should know a few things. First, I go to one of the top colleges in the country. Therefore, I'm probably smarter than you."

And believe it or not, it got worse. Plus, he had this weird habit of declaring his IQ whenever someone questioned him.  

#194
Pwener2313

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Really? Glad I wasn't the computer whiz I am today so I never met him. I would like to point out something that smudboy's brilliant counter attacker said; Shepard had to be killed so that we would perceive the Reapers as the incredible threat they truly are.

#195
CoolioThane

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He sounds like an awesome dude...or a ****end, not sure which one :3

#196
JKoopman

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Pwener2313 wrote...

I would like to point out something that smudboy's brilliant counter attacker said; Shepard had to be killed so that we would perceive the Reapers as the incredible threat they truly are.


Really? And how did Shepard's death and resurrection affect his/her's or anyone else's perception of the Reapers in ME2? How did Shepard's death and resurrection affect anything in regards to the plot of ME2?

Shepard was killed and resurrected in ME2 because BioWare wanted some sort of story reason for why Shepard's level and abilities were reset at the start of the game. The End. Personally, I would've preferred it to simply be hand-waved away as gameplay segregation and the story left alone.

#197
Bourne Endeavor

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Before I go off on a tangent on the current debate. I shall comment on the video. Although I believe solid arguments were made and have nary been in full agreement with Smudboy anyway. Much was left to desire, either due to misinterpretation or unfeasible speculation. Furthermore, I had difficulty at first remaining alert. The initial five minutes was painful monotonous despite a decent amount of humor.
---


Moving along, about a month prior, I had entered into a debate upon this subject over on Gfaqs; yes I know, poor judgment in hindsight given the context. Whilst I could no longer hold an interest when the arguments began to amount to, "use your imagination!" I had contemplated a slightly more plausible scenario with limited alternation to the introduction. Perhaps not perfect, I believe it at least allots for theories.

Skip ahead to then scene where Shepard confronts Joker and the Normandy's body is subsequently blow into oblivion. Allow us to remove this either completely or delay it for the moment. Instead, Shepard assists Joker to the escape as normal and is shot back inside the Normady. It is at this junction the camera pans back to Joker, and possibly provides us with a glance of the Collector cruiser in closer detail since we would witness it from Joker's perspective, maybe now they fire on the Normandy. Either way, it is for dramatics.

The point this brief removal of Shepard from the scene establishes speculation. In this window of opportunity where the player cannot see Shepard; what happened? We can now process the possibility of survival or body preservation through hypothesis pertaining to escape pods, Shepard was blown away from the Normandy, the beams miraculously missed him/her, even the Mako argument has partial, albeit exceptionally mild, merit.

At the end, none can say for certain but it leads to reasonable consideration in lieu of punctured suits, reentry burn up and hurling toward a planet at remarkable speeds, at remaining intact. Toss in Miranda's acknowledgment Shepard was found in an escape pod and there you have your explanation with virtually no additional time necessary.

A similar alternate scenario with Cerberus would do the plot grand, and much akin to the aforementioned, can be accomplished with minimal adjustments. For example, the return to the Citadel is made a mandatory 'mission' and precedes any allegiance with Cerberus, begrudgingly or otherwise. It is here we discover the Council's ineptitude or denial, which ever you may fancy. Anderson is gridlocked, and cannot provide assistance through militant means. Therefore we are forced to work for Cerberus, however had a moment's defiance and in this instance saw first hand why we must join Cerberus, whereas presently, we merely take TIM at his word. In addition, TIM retains his smug disposition through confidence in  allowing Shepard to return and even offering him/her a new ship, all under the perception he/she would be back.

I would include some exposition in regards to past Cerberus operations, specially Akuze. One scenario perpetrates when questioned, TIM claims there exists three head divisions and consequently three different chains of command, hence the name. The group from Mass Effect were extremists, perhaps even having gone rogue. Most importantly, it demonstrates plausibility Cerberus is not the evil operation incarnate we were led to believe. TIM could even vaguely insinuate there may be a higher chain of command than him. This would establish ambiguity, and leave the player to decide if TIM is trustworthy or not.

That has been my way of making minor changes in an attempt to fill the gaps. At this stage of the debate I am merely reiterating what preceded my arrival. Shepard dying is neither a poor decision nor unnecessary, provided it has substance and believability. Suspension of disbelief must adhere to a partially believable standard through rational exposition of the perceived rules the lore has established. Mostly, ME2 simply lacked exposition and even ten minutes could have done wonders.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 15 mars 2011 - 09:34 .


#198
piemanz

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JKoopman wrote...

Really? And how did Shepard's death and resurrection affect his/her's or anyone else's perception of the Reapers in ME2? How did Shepard's death and resurrection affect anything in regards to the plot of ME2?


Maybe if he had not been dead for 2 years he wouldn't have be greeted by the turian couciler air quoting him for a start.I think it's fair to say that if shepard had not been dead the 2 years leading up to the events of ME2 things would have been very different.I cant imagine shepard keeping his mouth shut while the reper threat got swept under the rug.

And as for not affecting the plot, seriously, you wouldn't be working with cerberus for a start.The alliance and the council may have a completely different outlook on the reaper threat.You would'nt have to go round recruiting new team members to take down the collectors, you would probably be doing it with you're old ship and crew.

Thats just a few i can think of but i think thats a fairly drastic change in plot compared to if he had not of died.In fact the whole story is based around shepard dieing, if he hadn't ME2 would have been a completely different game.

JKoopman wrote...

Personally, I would've preferred it to simply be hand-waved away as gameplay segregation and the story left alone.


You honestly think ME2 would have the same plot if he had not of died?.I find this staggering.

Modifié par piemanz, 15 mars 2011 - 06:31 .


#199
Iakus

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piemanz wrote...

You honestly think ME2 would have the same plot if he had not of died?.I find this staggering.




In an alternate timeline...

Shepard spends the next two years on the fringes of known space, looking fro evidence of Reapers and past cullings, neglecting his duties to chase down any possible lead on lost civilizations.  He quickly burns through the goodwill saving the Citadel cost him, becoming something of an embarassment to the Council and the Alliance. A few supporters like Anderson and Hackett shield him from the worst of the fallout though. 

One by one, his friends leave, called away or transferred to other posts.  Funding dries up.  The Citadel stops listening to him, convinced that with Sovereign dead, any Reaper threat must be gone forever.  Finally, in the Terminus Systems, The Normandy is attacked by an unknown vessel.  They barely manage to escape, but badly damaged and with several casualties. 

Shepard finally arrives at Omega.  THe Normandy is little more than a wreck, run by a skeleton crew.  Out of resources and rapidly running out of options, he is met by Miranda Lawson and Jacob Taylor, who come representing a "wealthy benefactor" who believes in the Reapers and wants to help...

#200
SSV Enterprise

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Paragon Shepard would never work with Cerberus without the whole resurrecting deal.