40 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr Ordinary]

The Cow King wrote...

No, I'd take metamagic feats: Empower, Extend...

Those are for granted.

Spellcasting Prodigy
Extend
Empower
Maximize
Quicken
SF/SP
GSF/GSP

But not necessarily in that order.

Are you going to specialise as a wizard?

If not, forget Spell Focus and GSF. Also, Extend and Quicken aren't worth taking, imo. There are plenty of long duration buffs, and the ability to rest whenever completely negates the value of extended buffs anyway. If you want to restrict yourself as far as resting goes, then okay. Otherwise, forget it.

If you are a capable mage and use your party effectively, then Quicken is of virtually no use in the OC. Handy for PvP deathmatches or if soloing the OC, but a waste of a feat otherwise.

[Arkalezth]

Mr Ordinary wrote...

Are you going to specialise as a wizard?

If not, forget Spell Focus and GSF.

Why? It's not needed at all in the OC, but more DC is always good.

Also, Extend and Quicken aren't worth taking, imo. There are plenty of long duration buffs, and the ability to rest whenever completely negates the value of extended buffs anyway. If you want to restrict yourself as far as resting goes, then okay. Otherwise, forget it.

If you are a capable mage and use your party effectively, then Quicken is of virtually no use in the OC. Handy for PvP deathmatches or if soloing the OC, but a waste of a feat otherwise.

Agreed about Quicken. Extend is always useful IMO, unless you want to rest or recast buffs every two steps. Persistent is also good for Haste, but depending on which companions you're taking along, you can take it with them.

There isn't much more to take, anyway.

[painofdungeoneternal]

I see metamagic more as a way to shift slots up or down, critical for a sorceror but of some value to a wizard who can really plan ahead. Imagine if you find a target is only susceptible to force damage, then you cast 5 magic missle spells normally, then 4 stilled/silent, then 4 empowered, then 4 maximized, then 3 quickened.

Very silly example i made, and hopefully you have IGMS or the like after that instead of quicken, but having options like that can really make a difference. This still makes it the least valuable ( and last one i take ), but i never leave home without it solely due to the sole fact i want to be able to shift my spell book contents around to whatever level slot i want even if there was no extra benefits. If you are an ASOC you actually lose the benefits of this movement since it moves some of the metamagics a level lower. ( even though you can grandfather your slots, even though i think this causes bugginess in some cases )

Once you hit epic, the autoquicken 1 also is fun since if you do all your magic missles at once it looks like a machine gun they fly out so fast - when you are in trouble this really makes that first level spell a life saver.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 09 mars 2011 - 08:52 .

[Rex Radar]

Arkalezth

Thank you for the reply. I don't think that power is an issue, I'm just wondering if it can be done.

Started a new thread under the OC for spoilers.

Also in case anyone needs to preform a forum search, here is the link.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/search

Modifié par Rex Radar, 10 mars 2011 - 12:39 .

[The Cow King]

I was checking all the level 9 spells and my eyes fell on Storm of Vengeance, after which I rolled a critical failure to resist cheese, and decided to scratch my idea of a sorc and go for a Druid.

I'd just link the build in the character builder but the skills get some kind of error (can't handle it).

Human L29 druid/L1 monk

STR - 8
DEX - 8
CON - 8
INT - 18
WIS - 18
CHA - 8

With Able Learner I get a nice chunk of skillpoints (skills at L30 with no buffs or items)

Appraise - 17
Concentration - 33
Craft Alchemy - 37 (overkill, will split into bluff maybe)
Diplomacy - 31
Disable Device - 20
Intimidate - 15
Lore - 37
Open Lock - 15
Search - 20
Spellcraft - 37
Tumble - 32
Use Magic Device - 15

Stats with buffs without any gear

Attack +31/+26/+21/+16/+11 in Dragon Form with Improved Combat Expertise, can use flurry of blows for 6 APR, gets +4 to all attacks against stunned targets from SoV (and another +4 with flurry).

Damage 2-12+13 (+5 physical, +1d8 fire, + 3d6 electrical)

630 HP (regenerates 63 HP/round for 10 rounds with one cast of regenerate)
64 AC
41 Spell Resistance

42 DC for Conjuration spells (SoV, Mass Drown)
39 DC for everything else

Yeah, I'm definitely going for this, sorc seems somewhat underpowered in comparison. I just love the amount of skill points I'll get, though it's a shame you can't cast epic spells while in Wild Shape.

Modifié par The Cow King, 10 mars 2011 - 02:17 .

[Haplose]

Umm.... well, that min-maxing is a bit over the top. It will take you a while to develop that dragonshape you know.
Like 1 full game and 2/3 of the expansion....

Unless you mean the Shapechange spell... but I'm not sure if that one takes advantage of Natural spell.
Also I'm not sure if it let's you change into a dragon in NWN2. I remeber the best form being some shadow monster.

Do you really NEED so many skillpoints? What's wrong with having a Rogue do the rogue-ish stuff.. and a mage do Craft Alchemy?
You'd really be better served by at least moving 4 points from Int to Dex and Con. That's 10 attribute points gained for 4...

You could also consider Sacred Fist. I think it's probably more powerfull defensively then the wildshape forms.

[Arkalezth]

Agreed, as usual. 31 AB isn't good, ICE is better used when casting, where the AB loss doesn't matter. I'm no Druid expert, specially at high levels, but I believe Winter Wolf form is one of, if not the best one. You'll need the Magical Beast feat.

If you want Rogue skills AND Able Learner, the question is obvious: Why not 1 Rogue level? Also, a second Monk or Rogue level would get you Evasion.

Edit: I took at look at the wiki and both Dragon and Winter Wolf (WW) have their advantages. Dragon has more AC, WW more damage. I didn't see any shadow form, unless you mean  Phase Spider.

A note on Sacred Fist: It's a good melee class, but don't use shapechange if you take it, or you'll have a -8 AB penalty.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 10 mars 2011 - 11:10 .

[Mr Ordinary]

Arkalezth wrote...

Mr Ordinary wrote...

Are you going to specialise as a wizard?

If not, forget Spell Focus and GSF.

Why? It's not needed at all in the OC, but more DC is always good.

Also, Extend and Quicken aren't worth taking, imo. There are plenty of long duration buffs, and the ability to rest whenever completely negates the value of extended buffs anyway. If you want to restrict yourself as far as resting goes, then okay. Otherwise, forget it.

If you are a capable mage and use your party effectively, then Quicken is of virtually no use in the OC. Handy for PvP deathmatches or if soloing the OC, but a waste of a feat otherwise.

Agreed about Quicken. Extend is always useful IMO, unless you want to rest or recast buffs every two steps. Persistent is also good for Haste, but depending on which companions you're taking along, you can take it with them.

There isn't much more to take, anyway.

With regards Spell Focus, the OP was talking of creating a chracter for the OC, so I thought that was relevant. Also, what schools do you want to take the feat for? You have limited feat choices (accepted, the Wizard gets a free metamagic feat every 5 levels) and taking SF to try to accommodate many circumstances will drain all those.

If you wish to take SF only in a specific school for a specific spell (or group of spells) then specialisation is the way to go - which I indicated was a good choice for someone wishing to up their DC via SF.

I accept that the usefullness of Extend is an opinion.  However, I only see it as possibly useful at low levels, where the /per round duration buffs expire quickly. At medium to high levels there really is not much benefit as the buffs should easily last through any combat and beyond.

Persistent haste is a waste, imo. Haste is not beneficial for a caster - it does not decrease the time needed to cast spells - and potions of haste are readily available or producable if you take the Craft Potions feat. This means you don't eat up a valuable 9th level spell slot.

If you are talking of adventuring without any consumable items, then okay it has some use. But what mage adventurer worth his/her salt doesn't carry around scrolls, wands and/or potions? Likewise, the mage's companions?

Modifié par Mr Ordinary, 10 mars 2011 - 01:13 .

[Arkalezth]

Mr Ordinary wrote...

With regards Spell Focus, the OP was talking of creating a chracter for the OC, so I thought that was relevant. Also, what schools do you want to take the feat for? You have limited feat choices (accepted, the Wizard gets a free metamagic feat every 5 levels) and taking SF to try to accommodate many circumstances will drain all those.

If you wish to take SF only in a specific school for a specific spell (or group of spells) then specialisation is the way to go - which I indicated was a good choice for someone wishing to up their DC via SF.

You still don't explain why +1 DC isn't good for a non-specialist. A Sorcerer with SF:Evocation will have a higher DC with that school than a Sorcerer without it.

Specialist Wizards (other than Red Wizards) don't gain any DC bonus.

I accept that the usefullness of Extend is an opinion.  However, I only see it as possibly useful at low levels, where the /per round duration buffs expire quickly. At medium to high levels there really is not much benefit as the buffs should easily last through any combat and beyond.

Persistent haste is a waste, imo. Haste is not beneficial for a caster - it does not decrease the time needed to cast spells - and potions of haste are readily available or producable if you take the Craft Potions feat. This means you don't eat up a valuable 9th level spell slot.

If you are talking of adventuring without any consumable items, then okay it has some use. But what mage adventurer worth his/her salt doesn't carry around scrolls, wands and/or potions? Likewise, the mage's companions?

But it can be beneficial for companions. 1 extra attack/round from everyone  for 24 hours can be better than another 9th level slot. A 20th level Sorcerer can cast 6 level 9 spells per day, not counting CHA modifier. And this is personal preference mostly, but fast movement is great (and even casters benefit from this), specially if you can cast it once and forget about it. How long does a Potion of Haste last? 30-60 seconds? I'll take the less annoying option.

The same reasoning can be applied to Extend, but without losing high level slots. Persistent is nice to have if you have room for it. Extend isn't necessary, but I almost always take it.

I only wish rods of buffing worked well with metamagic.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 10 mars 2011 - 01:39 .

[NWN DM]

The Cow King wrote...

Sigh... the point being, I didn't really ASK whether I'll make it or not, I asked whether I get 3x L9 spells or not (as drow). I asked whether GSP is useful in the OC or not.

The difference between being able to choose 1 or 3 L9 spells has a rather dramatic effect on my gameplay fun.

No matter, I've decided to go with Wild Elf.

Apologies... I came in to this thread with a bit of a misconception about what you were asking.

Now I see this is just another power builder topic disguised in sheep's clothing.

No matter... how ever you choose to play, I hope you enjoy the game.

[Mr Ordinary]

Arkalezth wrote...

You still don't explain why +1 DC isn't good for a non-specialist. A Sorcerer with SF:Evocation will have a higher DC with that school than a Sorcerer without it.

Specialist Wizards (other than Red Wizards) don't gain any DC bonus.

I never said specialist wizards get a DC bonus. My reason for suggesting them as a better choice for specialists is, yes, it can lead to being able to take Red Wizard, but more that  it's a playstyle or aesthetic choice.

There is nothing wrong with having +1 DC in a spell school, but for the OC it's really not worth the feat. It is far more practical, imo, to take crafting feats and  other feats - such as Spell Penetration - that will allow you to gain an advantage over the few truly formidable opponents.

Again, it's probably more a case of playstyle, but I prefer to save magic for when brute force is not enough. This often involves 'boss' opponents who are far more likely to have extraordinary abilities such as spell resistance, or require direct damage type spells (rather than AoE). For quite a few of the direct damage spells (more if Kaedrin's is used) the mage has make a 'to hit' roll. I am of the opinion it is better to have a better chance to hit, rather than a better chance to do more damage. In this regard, I would choose Weapon Focus: Ranged Touch Attack, and Melee Touch Attack next,  before Spell Focus.

I only wish rods of buffing worked well with metamagic.

Now that is one sentiment I share completely!

Modifié par Mr Ordinary, 10 mars 2011 - 02:35 .

[Arkalezth]

I know you didn't say that about specialists, I just was wondering if that would be the reason for your statement. But yes, I agree that it's not needed for the OC, actually, I never take it, unless it's a prerequisite. Same for Penetration.

And yes, DM, I didn't expect so much concern about optimization when the thread started.

[Haplose]

Arkalezth wrote...
I didn't see any shadow form, unless you mean  Phase Spider.

I meant the Nightwalker form granted by the Shapechange spell. That's available much sooner then Dragon Shape.
I'm not sure if you can use Natural Spell or merge any items with the spell-bestowed shapes though.

The Elemental forms should be decent too.

[Arkalezth]

Ah, that one. I was looking at the Druid forms. I misread your post.

[The Cow King]

Haplose wrote...

Umm.... well, that min-maxing is a bit over the top. It will take you a while to develop that dragonshape you know.
Like 1 full game and 2/3 of the expansion....

It's not like there are no other forms before it. The elemental forms are crazy.

Dragon Shape is by no means required, it's just a nice logical pick since you get the high wisdom anyway (which helps your AC, DC, and gives you more spell slots).

Haplose wrote...

Unless you mean the Shapechange spell... but I'm not sure if that one takes advantage of Natural spell.

Doesn't work with the shapechange spell.

Haplose wrote...

You'd really be better served by at least moving 4 points from Int to Dex and Con. That's 10 attribute points gained for 4...

Haplose wrote...

Do you really NEED so many skillpoints? What's wrong with having a Rogue do the rogue-ish stuff.. and a mage do Craft Alchemy?

Why not? There is absolutely no point putting any points into STR-DEX-CON as those will be completely replaced while in wild shape, and that's the way it's gonna be.

WIS 18 is self-explanatory.

That leaves intelligence or charisma, intelligence being the obvious choice.

Arkalezth wrote...

Agreed, as usual. 31 AB isn't good, ICE is better used when casting,

It's 35-39 when I'm actually attacking in melee, and this build wasn't made to be an optimized melee build. It's an optimized druid caster in wildshape form (who is also the main/secondary tank & main thief), achieving something of an immortality and decent ability to melee when you're out of spells.

Due to the high DC, SoV = all enemies are practically stunned for 10 rounds with nice damage to boot (and you attract enemies like honey, even though they can barely scratch you). Mass Drown = works almost like Wail but with a smaller radius.

And since you can act as the main tank, it just makes spells like Fire Storm, Lightning Storm etc... very easy to cast as all the enemies will be swarmed around you to begin with.

Arkalezth wrote...
If you want Rogue skills AND Able Learner, the question is obvious: Why not 1 Rogue level? Also, a second Monk or Rogue level would get you Evasion.

You're right, one level of rogue is much superior for skills, but taking 2nd level of monk loses one epic druid feat, so definitely not worth it.

Mr Ordinary wrote...

Are you going to specialise as a wizard?

If
not, forget Spell Focus and GSF. Also, Extend and Quicken aren't worth
taking, imo. There are plenty of long duration buffs, and the ability to
rest whenever completely negates the value of extended buffs anyway. If
you want to restrict yourself as far as resting goes, then okay.
Otherwise, forget it.

A.) I'm a sorc

B.) Quicken will be automatically given by ASoC

C.) Extend can be used for other things than just extending duration. You can, for example, cast Mirror Image as a lvl 3 spell if you've run out of L2 spells for the day.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

I see metamagic more as a
way to shift slots up or down, critical for a sorceror.

This. Spontaneous casting makes metamagic feats so much more worthwhile.

Mr Ordinary wrote...

Persistent haste is a waste, imo. Haste is not beneficial for a caster - it does
not decrease the time needed to cast spells

Persistent Haste is good no matter what, it helps your companions, and gives you the ability to stay away from the melee of enemies between casting spells.

As for my own question of taking Spell Penetration, it seems completely useless, as there is only one real *must have* pick on L9, easily leaving room for Disjunction (which also saves a critical L6 slot), and slotting Assay Resistance is not a problem either, giving you practically +20 on your check.

Although I just read Disjunction doesn't lower SR in creature hides, but Assay Resistance works just as fine.

Modifié par The Cow King, 11 mars 2011 - 02:27 .

[The Cow King]

NWN DM wrote...

Apologies... I came in to this thread with a bit of a misconception about what you were asking.

Now I see this is just another power builder topic disguised in sheep's clothing.

No matter... how ever you choose to play, I hope you enjoy the game.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to maximize one's potetial.

That, and I'm still completely torn between..

Sorc 19
ASoC 10
Palemaster 1

Druid 28
Monk 1
Rogue 1

Also I'd take Automatic Quicken spell for any wizard, chain gunning magic missiles is just way too much fun.

Modifié par The Cow King, 11 mars 2011 - 04:27 .