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[Commander Waha]

 Alright, I just wanted to go over something that I've seen a lot of discussion on here. 

Some people are of the opinion that ME1 was a better RPG system than ME2. 

I disagree, and I will list the reasons why. 

1: ME1 had twice-three times the amount of skills, but most of them were gun skills/healing skills. 
    Since ME1 had regenerating health/shields much as ME2 does, the healing skills are directed at people who are terrible at ME1 (I'll touch on this later, but seriously consider not passing on your genes if you had trouble beating ME1) Gun skills are innaccurate. I'm not asking for all things to be true to life, but guns should not do more damage, or be more accurate because I use them more often. One could argue that YOU the player are becoming more accurate, but then why doesn't AR aiming skill carry over to shotgun aiming skill? God knows they are similar enough. Gun skills are just empty places to put points. Placeholders saying that "if you play longer you do more damage, don't ask questions". And I'm okay with that, but ME2 did it better. ME2 had health/damage skills in one tier, which I found was smoother overall. It's easier, but not in a bad way. 

2: You could put more points into each skill in ME1, but each point meant less. 
     ME2 had half the levels of ME1, and half the skill points, but each level up actually meant something. In ME1 I'd often not level up for 5 or 6 levels, whereas in ME2 you almost always level up immediately every time. It's more fulfilling to level up in ME2. 

3: ME1 had a more in depth inventory system, but ME2 accomplished the same ends by using ammo powers. 
    Don't get me wrong, I wish ME2 had more weapons, and it would have been cool to switch armours out for squadmates without appearance packs, but I'm talking more about weapon addons. I certainly don't miss spending twenty minutes of flowbreaking inventory assessment trying to figure out what to equip my guns with. 
 In ME2 it's a much faster, on the fly decision. Synthetics? Disruptor ammo. Armored opponents? Incendiary rounds. Anything? Warp Ammo. It keeps the player in the game, which is what really counts. 

4: ME1 had a much bigger RPG element, but you could beat the game on insanity without dying without putting a single point into anything. ME1 was pisseasy. RPG elements should make you feel truly more powerful over time. 2% extra damage versus synthetics on wednsdays after 6PM doesn't count as feeling more powerful. I would love to see a non-gibbed playthrough of ME2 without using development points on insanity. It isn't likely to happen. ME2 is a much harder game, and it requires it's RPG elements more than ME1 did. 

In the end, this is my opinion, but I'd love if you'd all discuss it to show me the error of my ways/support my ideas. 

Oh, and if this thread makes anyone mad, just let me preempt the fury. 


Please discuss

[ErebUs890]

ME2>ME1
Atmosphere of ME1>Atmosphere of ME2

But, for ME3, I would love to see more customization.

[Commander Waha]

ErebUs890 wrote...

ME2>ME1
Atmosphere of ME1>Atmosphere of ME2

But, for ME3, I would love to see more customization.

I can get behind that. My only ME3 hope is that there's about as many squaddies as ME2. 

I loved having so many choices. Damn you for spoiling me ME2!

[AdmiralCheez]

OP: Thank you for posting this. It said what I wanted to say much better than I could.

I do want more customization and tradeoffs for ME3, though.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 08 mars 2011 - 12:51 .

[Iakus]

Commander Waha wrote...


3: ME1 had a more in depth inventory system, but ME2 accomplished the same ends by using ammo powers. 
    Don't get me wrong, I wish ME2 had more weapons, and it would have been cool to switch armours out for squadmates without appearance packs, but I'm talking more about weapon addons. I certainly don't miss spending twenty minutes of flowbreaking inventory assessment trying to figure out what to equip my guns with. 
 In ME2 it's a much faster, on the fly decision. Synthetics? Disruptor ammo. Armored opponents? Incendiary rounds. Anything? Warp Ammo. It keeps the player in the game, which is what really counts. 

It's not a matter of having more weapons, necessarilly, (at least, not to me) but being able to fine-tune the weapons to serve individual preferences.


 ME 1 allowed that with mods for guns and ammo.  Not saying it was a perfect system, as it could definitely have used some fine-tuning.  At the very least, Identical items should hav ebeen stackable, and an option to NOT loot something you didn't want.  But a customization systemwas there. 

ME 2 guns were pretty much "what you see is what you get"  Upgrades were as linear as the corridors you ran down and as unyeilding as the boxes you hid behind in.  !0% here.  10% there.  No tradeoffs, no interesting stats.  Bo-ring!

Depth means tradeoffs.  Do you want stopping power or recoil control?  Accuracy or armor penetration?  Ammo capacity or rate of fire?  That sort of thing.  I wanted my Shepard to say "This is my Widow!  There are many like it, but this one is mine!"  without Legion holding up his and saying "Shepard-Commander is incorrect"

BTW: did it really take 20 minutes to decide what mods to use?  Seriously?

[N7Infernox]

I agree with OP on the effectiveness of ME2's skill systems.

Commander Waha wrote...

ErebUs890 wrote...

ME2>ME1
Atmosphere of ME1>Atmosphere of ME2

But, for ME3, I would love to see more customization.

I can get behind that. My only ME3 hope is that there's about as many squaddies as ME2. 

I loved having so many choices. Damn you for spoiling me ME2!

...however, I don't exactly want that.

[padaE]

I don't get when people say that ME2 had few weapons.
.
ME1 had four, and just four weapons.
.
And the RPG elements in ME1 regarding the combat system were bad. ME1 was neither a shooter nor a RPG with guns.

[ErebUs890]

Honestly, I was kind of glad that the inventory system was taken out of ME2, but at the same time, finding good loot was pretty nice in ME1, the only problem was that there was so much that was completely useless. I remember making a lot of creds after ever mission. I was an intergalactic billionaire.

[Commander Waha]

[quote]iakus wrote...

[quote]Commander Waha wrote...



BTW: did it really take 20 minutes to decide what mods to use?  Seriously?
[/quote]

Hyperbole doth a readable thread make. 

But I didn't enjoy inventory fiddling. ME2 didn't get it quite right, but I thought it was an improvement. 

Like ME1 improved resource scanning over ME2. <_<

[The Spamming Troll]

there was another discussion on this same topic that was just closed down, for no real reason whatsoever. it was actually just starting to get interesting, but they shut the door on that, so why not just start again eh?

id simply say the opposite of what you said. ME2 is a shell of ME1. but to respond to your list id have to say the following....

1.-2. your completely wrong here. practice makes perfect, so training would mean your perfecting your skill. so investing in AR should improve your AR skills, obviously right? also, ARs and shotguns are certainly not similar. if your questioning why someone would invest in shotguns or pistols, then i can only assume you never used carnage or master marksman. do you not invest in throw either and expect throw to be awesome too? leveling up in ME1 made a huge difference in the capabilities of a class. theres no comparing a level 20 to a level 60 in ME1. on the other hand ME2s leveling system means very little to the game. my level 10 adept can do EVERYTHING my level 30 can, although i just wont have a decent weapon since you only get good weapons late game. but were not talking weapons, were talking skills.

3. the only reason weapon mods work good now is because bioware added a fake layer of crap with enemy protections in order to make the game more tactical or whatever there intentions were. i dont enjoy rock paper scissors. i enjoy playing a video game, not staring at tiny blue, yellow, or purple health bars for 40 hours.

4. whats your point?

i just think its funny that the ME2 fans are sold on the fact that they think ME2 is obviously the better game and anyone who thinks differently is simply flat wrong. people who appreciated what ME1 gave us in a video game arent on these forums much anymore. im one a the stragglers hopeing that ME3 wont be Mass Effect2: episode 2.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 08 mars 2011 - 12:59 .

[patocerda]

Bravo!

You actually make compelling arguments, I'm sure that everyone who buys the "not RPG enough" thing for ME2 WILL think about it again.

Because, you see, the gameplay team spent 2 years on this, and ME2 gameplay is really refined when it comes to compare it to the ME1 system. They have 2 more years to work on it, so I assure you this time they'll find the balance between both!

[N7Infernox]

iakus wrote...

Commander Waha wrote...


3: ME1 had a more in depth inventory system, but ME2 accomplished the same ends by using ammo powers. 
    Don't get me wrong, I wish ME2 had more weapons, and it would have been cool to switch armours out for squadmates without appearance packs, but I'm talking more about weapon addons. I certainly don't miss spending twenty minutes of flowbreaking inventory assessment trying to figure out what to equip my guns with. 
 In ME2 it's a much faster, on the fly decision. Synthetics? Disruptor ammo. Armored opponents? Incendiary rounds. Anything? Warp Ammo. It keeps the player in the game, which is what really counts. 

It's not a matter of having more weapons, necessarilly, (at least, not to me) but being able to fine-tune the weapons to serve individual preferences.


 ME 1 allowed that with mods for guns and ammo.  Not saying it was a perfect system, as it could definitely have used some fine-tuning.  At the very least, Identical items should hav ebeen stackable, and an option to NOT loot something you didn't want.  But a customization systemwas there. 

ME 2 guns were pretty much "what you see is what you get"  Upgrades were as linear as the corridors you ran down and as unyeilding as the boxes you hid behind in.  !0% here.  10% there.  No tradeoffs, no interesting stats.  Bo-ring!

Depth means tradeoffs.  Do you want stopping power or recoil control?  Accuracy or armor penetration?  Ammo capacity or rate of fire?  That sort of thing.  I wanted my Shepard to say "This is my Widow!  There are many like it, but this one is mine!"  without Legion holding up his and saying "Shepard-Commander is incorrect"

BTW: did it really take 20 minutes to decide what mods to use?  Seriously?

As far as weapon customization goes, switching back to ME1's inventory/ weapon mod system would be a big step back. And the linear upgrades were probably put in for balancing issues. If it was reworkable, I'd prefer using minerals to create the upgrades I want on the Normandy for my weapons. New accuracy, armor piercing, shield piercing, barrier piercing, base damage, ammo capacity, headshot damage, and knockback force improvements would be made available as my Shep advanced to new levels. All customization would be done on the Normandy between missions, and their would only be so many upgrades you could add to each weapon (weaker the gun, more potential upgrade slots). THAT would be awesome imho.

EDIT: RoF would depend on the gun, reload time would depend on a passive for Shep. Oh and keep the ammo powers.

Modifié par N7Infernox, 08 mars 2011 - 01:04 .

[Commander Waha]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

there was another discussion on this same topic that was just closed down, for no real reason whatsoever. it was actually just starting to get interesting, but they shut the door on that, so why not just start again eh?

id simply say the opposite of what you said. ME2 is a shell of ME1. but to respond to your list id have to say the following....

1.-2. your completely wrong here. practice makes perfect, so training would mean your perfecting your skill. so investing in AR should improve your AR skills, obviously right? also, ARs and shotguns are certainly not similar. if your questioning why someone would invest in shotguns or pistols, then i can only assume you never used carnage or master marksman. do you not invest in throw either and expect throw to be awesome too? leveling up in ME2 made a huge difference in the capabilities of a class. theres no comparing a level 20 to a level 60 in ME1. on the other hand ME2s leveling system means very little to the game. my level 10 adept can do EVERYTHING my level 30 can, although i just wont have a decent weapon since you only get good weapons late game. but were not talking weapons, were talking skills.

3. the only reason weapon mods work good now is because bioware added a fake layer of crap with enemy protections in order to make the game more tactical or whatever there intentions were. i dont enjoy rock paper scissors. i enjoy playing a video game, not staring at tiny blue, yellow, or purple health bars for 40 hours.

4. whats your point?

i just think its funny that the ME2 fans are sold on the fact that they think ME2 is obviously the better game and anyone who thinks differently is simply flat wrong. people who appreciated what ME1 gave us in a video game arent on these forums much anymore. im one a the stragglers hopeing that ME3 wont be Mass Effect2: episode 2.

@#1: Aiming an AR is a lot like aiming any other long gun. If you're amazing at aiming AR's, you should at least be really good at aiming shotguns. It'd be like having a 100% hit rate with a sword, but a 60% hit rate with a knife. Doesn't make sense really. 

@#2: Just because a level 10 adept can use Singularity doesn't mean he can use it well. Every level in ME2 feels like 5 or 6 levels in ME1. It's condensed to the point where it means something. 

@3-4: The point is that RPG elements are there to make you feel stronger and accomplished. ME1 falls flat in those regards until you hit 50 or so. Every level in ME2 feels important. 

[jbg927]

I wouldn't say every level in me2 made a difference, I only noticed a real difference when I leveled up a power to level 4 and chose the evolution of that power

[N7Infernox]

jbg927 wrote...

I wouldn't say every level in me2 made a difference, I only noticed a real difference when I leveled up a power to level 4 and chose the evolution of that power

Compared to ME1, it was a big difference. Try putting slam on your Shep, and raising its rank after every mission: use it enough and you'll notice a sizable improvement all the way up to rank 4.

[jbg927]

Yeah but slam only works on an enemy with no defenses so it's useless IMO. I think both games complement each other and I love the fact that they are not the exact same game but with a different story

[Commander Waha]

jbg927 wrote...

Yeah but slam only works on an enemy with no defenses so it's useless IMO. I think both games complement each other and I love the fact that they are not the exact same game but with a different story

Choose any other power then. Warp is a good example. Warp 2 is much better than warp 1. Of course the biggest increase is in Warp 4, but in ME1 warp 10 wasn't much better than warp 9 or warp 8.

[AdmiralCheez]

jbg927 wrote...

Yeah but slam only works on an enemy with no defenses so it's useless IMO.

Bah.  Not with the right bullets, it ain't.

I think both games complement each other and I love the fact that they are not the exact same game but with a different story

Agreed.  I don't pay fifty bucks for an expansion pack.

[jbg927]

Currently I'm playing through me1 and I think it's an overall better game, but then I'll start me2 and think the same thing about it hah

[The Spamming Troll]

Commander Waha wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

there was another discussion on this same topic that was just closed down, for no real reason whatsoever. it was actually just starting to get interesting, but they shut the door on that, so why not just start again eh?

id simply say the opposite of what you said. ME2 is a shell of ME1. but to respond to your list id have to say the following....

1.-2. your completely wrong here. practice makes perfect, so training would mean your perfecting your skill. so investing in AR should improve your AR skills, obviously right? also, ARs and shotguns are certainly not similar. if your questioning why someone would invest in shotguns or pistols, then i can only assume you never used carnage or master marksman. do you not invest in throw either and expect throw to be awesome too? leveling up in ME2 made a huge difference in the capabilities of a class. theres no comparing a level 20 to a level 60 in ME1. on the other hand ME2s leveling system means very little to the game. my level 10 adept can do EVERYTHING my level 30 can, although i just wont have a decent weapon since you only get good weapons late game. but were not talking weapons, were talking skills.

3. the only reason weapon mods work good now is because bioware added a fake layer of crap with enemy protections in order to make the game more tactical or whatever there intentions were. i dont enjoy rock paper scissors. i enjoy playing a video game, not staring at tiny blue, yellow, or purple health bars for 40 hours.

4. whats your point?

i just think its funny that the ME2 fans are sold on the fact that they think ME2 is obviously the better game and anyone who thinks differently is simply flat wrong. people who appreciated what ME1 gave us in a video game arent on these forums much anymore. im one a the stragglers hopeing that ME3 wont be Mass Effect2: episode 2.

@#1: Aiming an AR is a lot like aiming any other long gun. If you're amazing at aiming AR's, you should at least be really good at aiming shotguns. It'd be like having a 100% hit rate with a sword, but a 60% hit rate with a knife. Doesn't make sense really. 

@#2: Just because a level 10 adept can use Singularity doesn't mean he can use it well. Every level in ME2 feels like 5 or 6 levels in ME1. It's condensed to the point where it means something. 

@3-4: The point is that RPG elements are there to make you feel stronger and accomplished. ME1 falls flat in those regards until you hit 50 or so. Every level in ME2 feels important. 

1. one does not go hand in hand with the other. i would even assume the myself, whose never shot any kind of gun before, could be a pretty accurate shot with a shotgun or an AR.  i just dont think you can categorize all guns as being exactly the same, or even similar at all. is an assault rifle with a scope similar to a high powered sniper rifle? no not really, but they are very similar weapons.

2.-4. i disagree. one point in pull, one point in warp and ten points in singularity is essentially all an adept player needs. i honeeslty wouldnt notice any sortof of difference in gameplay playing a level 10 or a level 30 in ME2 other then using the predetor/shiruken sompared to phalanx/locust/bonus weapons. and thats a whole other problem in itself. im surprised you havent brouight this up. if a galactically know elite space marine has to stmble across a dead geth on some random planets random hallway in order to finally find a SMG is absolutely pathetic. anyways in ME1 theres no compaing a level 20 to a level 60.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 08 mars 2011 - 01:25 .

[jbg927]

I agree spamming troll

[jbg927]

I agree spamming troll

[jbg927]

Sorry for the double post I'm on my iPhone

[Commander Waha]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Commander Waha wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

there was another discussion on this same topic that was just closed down, for no real reason whatsoever. it was actually just starting to get interesting, but they shut the door on that, so why not just start again eh?

id simply say the opposite of what you said. ME2 is a shell of ME1. but to respond to your list id have to say the following....

1.-2. your completely wrong here. practice makes perfect, so training would mean your perfecting your skill. so investing in AR should improve your AR skills, obviously right? also, ARs and shotguns are certainly not similar. if your questioning why someone would invest in shotguns or pistols, then i can only assume you never used carnage or master marksman. do you not invest in throw either and expect throw to be awesome too? leveling up in ME2 made a huge difference in the capabilities of a class. theres no comparing a level 20 to a level 60 in ME1. on the other hand ME2s leveling system means very little to the game. my level 10 adept can do EVERYTHING my level 30 can, although i just wont have a decent weapon since you only get good weapons late game. but were not talking weapons, were talking skills.

3. the only reason weapon mods work good now is because bioware added a fake layer of crap with enemy protections in order to make the game more tactical or whatever there intentions were. i dont enjoy rock paper scissors. i enjoy playing a video game, not staring at tiny blue, yellow, or purple health bars for 40 hours.

4. whats your point?

i just think its funny that the ME2 fans are sold on the fact that they think ME2 is obviously the better game and anyone who thinks differently is simply flat wrong. people who appreciated what ME1 gave us in a video game arent on these forums much anymore. im one a the stragglers hopeing that ME3 wont be Mass Effect2: episode 2.

@#1: Aiming an AR is a lot like aiming any other long gun. If you're amazing at aiming AR's, you should at least be really good at aiming shotguns. It'd be like having a 100% hit rate with a sword, but a 60% hit rate with a knife. Doesn't make sense really. 

@#2: Just because a level 10 adept can use Singularity doesn't mean he can use it well. Every level in ME2 feels like 5 or 6 levels in ME1. It's condensed to the point where it means something. 

@3-4: The point is that RPG elements are there to make you feel stronger and accomplished. ME1 falls flat in those regards until you hit 50 or so. Every level in ME2 feels important. 

1. one does not go hand in hand with the other. i would even assume the myself, whose never shot any kind of gun before, could be a pretty accurate shot with a shotgun or an AR.  i just dont think you can categorize all guns as being exactly the same, or even similar at all. is an assault rifle with a scope similar to a high powered sniper rifle? no not really, but they are very similar weapons.

2.-4.  i honeeslty wouldnt notice any sortof of difference in gameplay playing a level 10 or a level 30 in ME2.

1: Speaking as someone who has handled a fair number of guns in his time, I can tell you the following. If you can hit a target at 100 yards with an assault rifle, you can damn well do it with a shotgun, or a pistol. Aiming is aiming, and once you get used to the weight of the weapon, which takes 5-10 minutes and not 6 hours of gameplay, you are equally accurate with each weapon to the degree that weapon allows. Gun stats are just an extra stat to put points in. Make work, if you will. 

2-4: If you can't see it, it's because you don't want to. Willful Ignorance is a powerful thing. I think it evolves from Ignorance 3, if you don't pick Hardened Ignorance.

[jbg927]

Give me the option to equip my squadmates with any armor I choose again and I'll be happy! And a shotgun has a much different feel than that of an ar or handgun the way you hold each weapon and the amount of kick from each varies greatly!