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[mellifera]

maselphie wrote...

So. Even if we kill Anders ... He lives. AMAZING! That somehow makes me happy. He's just really good at faking deaths. I mean. It's not like we slit his throat or anything. I mean. Right? RIGHT?

*is really hoping there's a scapegoat to him being just as important in DA3*

I guess it's easier to handwave a death when you have something like Justice that can assume direct control? He got run through with a sword in his short story and it was only a flesh wound xD BUT, this would really invalidate the choices of those who didn't let him live.

Modifié par yukidama, 19 mars 2011 - 08:44 .

[Kim Shepard]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I've seen a few people mention how messed up their Hawke is at the point she decides to keep Anders with her and I'm wondering how common this is. I think my Hawke is as sane as can be under the circumstances and Anders ended up dead in my only completed playthrough. How fares the sanity of your guys' Hawkes when you spare Anders? 

My FemHawke, Kaya, kept Anders alive because she agreed with what he did. Whether that means she's at least a bit insane is debatable, I guess. Kaya starts off wanting to stay out of the templars' way, more for her family's safety than her own, but she's always helped mages. Over time, she came to believe that an all-out revolution was the only way to make a real change. If Anders/Justice had done something she thought was horrible, she wouldn't have spared them, but that wasn't the case. She would have liked to be right there by his side. After thinking about it though, she can understand why they didn't want her involved.

[Jean]

maselphie wrote...

So. Even if we kill Anders ... He lives. AMAZING! That somehow makes me happy. He's just really good at faking deaths. I mean. It's not like we slit his throat or anything. I mean. Right? RIGHT?

*is really hoping there's a scapegoat to him being just as important in DA3*

Well... If you stab him there's no ridiculous amounts of blood pooling out of him...

[panamakira]

You guys haven't properly rival-manced him then. He clearly looks tormented and he knows he's loosing control of Justice. Hence, the blackouts and Justice coming out to tell you off. You are as much in love with Anders as you are with Justice. I don't care for Justice at all. He doesn't belong in the living world, yet his desire to do so ended up in the disaster that is Vengeance.

I don't want to start another argument as to why I don't agree with Anders yet I stayed with him. It doesn't cheapen his resolve or actions. The Anders we met before although clearly not happy with the mages situation would have never done what he did at the end of DA2. He might have not killed innocents for the sake of his cause. Isabela puts it so brilliantly.

That is not Anders. That is Justice with Anders. You cannot say this was all of Anders' idea. When they merged they tainted each other really bad. Anders corrupted Justice and Justice Anders.

Whatever resolve led him to kill innocents was also something that Justice clearly influenced. To him it was claiming vengeance to the mages cause by destroying the Chantry. I'm not naive enough to think that Anders didn't necessarily wanted to do something for a mage revolution.

I'm saying he probably wouldn't have reached such a decision if it wasn't for Justice. Anders without Justice could have been talked into a more reasonable way to fight the Chantry. Justice with Anders not so much. The moment you waver his resolution, Justice comes out to snap him back.

/Ehh my two cents.

Modifié par panamakira, 19 mars 2011 - 08:21 .

[maselphie]

yukidama wrote...

maselphie wrote...

So. Even if we kill Anders ... He lives. AMAZING! That somehow makes me happy. He's just really good at faking deaths. I mean. It's not like we slit his throat or anything. I mean. Right? RIGHT?

*is really hoping there's a scapegoat to him being just as important in DA3*

I guess it's easier to handwave a death when you have something like Justice that can assume direct control? He got run through with a sword in his short story and it was only a flesh wound xD BUT, this would really invalidate the choices of those who didn't let him live.

Bah, I know. Just wishing on a star here. <_< It would make a lot of people mad if that kind of decision was taken away from us, too. And there's little point in investing money into something that a lot of people won't ever see ... 'cuz he's dead. Same goes for Anders DLC.

WOE!

Zombie Anders for DA3 main villain -- petition GO.

Modifié par maselphie, 19 mars 2011 - 08:24 .

[LoneWolf4191]

panamakira wrote...

You guys haven't properly rival-manced him then. He clearly looks tormented and he knows he's loosing control of Justice. Hence, the blackouts and Justice coming out to tell you off. You are as much in love with Anders as you are with Justice. I don't care for Justice at all. He doesn't belong in the living world, yet his desire to do so ended up in the disaster that is Vengeance.

I don't want to start another argument as to why I don't agree with Anders yet I stayed with him. It doesn't cheapen his resolve or actions. The Anders we met before although clearly not happy with the mages situation would have never done what he did at the end of DA2. He might have not killed innocents for the sake of his cause. Isabela puts it so brilliantly.

That is not Anders. That is Justice with Anders. You cannot say this was all of Anders' idea. When they merged they tainted each other really bad. Anders corrupted Justice and Justice Anders.

Whatever resolve led him to kill innocents was also something that Justice clearly influenced. To him it was claiming vengeance to the mages cause by destroying the Chantry. I'm not naive enough to think that Anders didn't necessarily wanted to do something for a mage revolution.

I'm saying he probably wouldn't have reached such a decision if it wasn't for Justice. Anders without Justice could have been talked into a more reasonable way to fight the Chantry. Justice with Anders not so much. The moment you waver his resolution, Justice comes out to snap him back.

/Ehh my two cents.

Although I wish there was a way to seperate them...besides death, that's why people helped him (unknowingly) destroy the chantry, because they thought they could save him....But couldn't Justice be taken out of anders like the desire deamon in Connor?

[mellifera]

Well, if the DLC takes place during the events of DA2 then there's no reason why he shouldn't be there. Could just be something we didn't get to see but totally happened xD

[Kim Shepard]

Just curious, by my Kaya isn't the only one who loves Justice as much as Anders, is she? ...Maybe so.

maselphie wrote...

Zombie Anders for DA3 main villain -- petition GO.

This is a bad plan. All of my favorite villains get killed off. Multiple times. It's a horrible pattern. You guys don't want Anders to follow that pattern, do you? D: (On the other hand, his character would probably develop in a way that makes me like him even more. You know, right before they kill him.)

[maselphie]

LoneWolf4191 wrote...

Although I wish there was a way to seperate them...besides death, that's why people helped him (unknowingly) destroy the chantry, because they thought they could save him....But couldn't Justice be taken out of anders like the desire deamon in Connor?

Something I watched closely was his speech patterns when you ask him if there's anyway to separate Justice and him, and he says "I don't know." But when you ask him about something else (can't remember for the life of me, but something similar) is he just "No." While this was likely done to set up a quest to dupe you into thinking you could separate them, I also believe he doesn't truly know, and that everything about magic or the fade is not completely understood, as evidenced by your mother's killer having a necromancy breakthrough. New things are being done with magic still, so that's hope. Considering people have been undemonized (although in situations unique from his -- Justice was already out of the fade when they merged, unlike Connor), it's likely no one really knows. And it's likely Justice does not want him to find out.

Modifié par maselphie, 19 mars 2011 - 08:33 .

[maselphie]

yukidama wrote...

Well, if the DLC takes place during the events of DA2 then there's no reason why he shouldn't be there. Could just be something we didn't get to see but totally happened xD

Yes, if DLC happens between the years that's totally plausible. Especially considering any post-game DLC would have to deal with the drama they just set up ... so it is probably during the events. Though the best character DLC were either before or after DA:O events last time ...

Kim Shepard wrote...

maselphie wrote...

Zombie Anders for DA3 main villain -- petition GO.

This is a bad plan. All of my favorite villains get killed off. Multiple times. It's a horrible pattern. You guys don't want Anders to follow that pattern, do you? D: (On the other hand, his character would probably develop in a way that makes me like him even more. You know, right before they kill him.)

Aww, c'mon! Villains get the best treatment. While your companions are your backup singers, your villains get the awesome animations and frames, and battles, and development, and the game references them constantly and everything leads up them -- it's putting them on a shrine. They're the point of the game. I say Anders be the point of the next game. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]

... realistically, though, it's going to be another plot-driven epic mash of Morrigan's god baby, Flemeth, Sandal and probably goddamned Andraste herself.

[LoneWolf4191]

maselphie wrote...

LoneWolf4191 wrote...

Although I wish there was a way to seperate them...besides death, that's why people helped him (unknowingly) destroy the chantry, because they thought they could save him....But couldn't Justice be taken out of anders like the desire deamon in Connor?

Something I watched closely was his speech patterns when you ask him if there's anyway to separate Justice and him, and he says "I don't know." But when you ask him about something else (can't remember for the life of me, but something similar) is he just "No." While this was likely done to set up a quest to dupe you into thinking you could separate them, I also believe he doesn't truly know, and that everything about magic or the fade is not completely understood, as evidenced by your mother's killer having a necromancy breakthrough. New things are being done with magic still, so that's hope. Considering people have been undemonized (although in situations unique from his -- Justice was already out of the fade when they merged, unlike Connor), it's likely no one really knows. And it's likely Justice does not want him to find out.

But Justice didn't want to become a sprit of Vengence in the first place...but then again, sine he has been corrupted, he probably doesn't care about that anymore now and his main concerns are freeing the mages.. But then what after the mages are freed? If their freed? Does he settle down or move to a new task? But if he truly wanted the freedom of every mage he would have to help those possesed as well and he would have to give up Anders somehow...it's all confusing...or maybe Iam just making it that way lol.

[panamakira]

Some people say Connor's situation is different or maybe I'm being too optimistic but maybe there is a way to separate them, I just don't know if it's too late for Anders, I don't know.

At the end he claims Justice didn't make him do anything and I believe it to an extent. Justice is still a part of him so he can't say Justice didn't corrupt him as much as he did to Justice.

I agree with @maselphie. I don't think even people in Thedas know enough about the Fade and magic.

[nenosronhir]

Whatever resolve led him to kill innocents was also something that Justice clearly influenced. To him it was claiming vengeance to the mages cause by destroying the Chantry. I'm not naive enough to think that Anders didn't necessarily wanted to do something for a mage revolution.

My impression is not that the act of destroying the Chantry itself is the vengeance or justice they were looking for, but what it provokes from Meredith, and the cascade of events that follow.

Other than that we seem to agree on what Justice does, but where I think Anders is more for Justice, you seem to think he's less for it? - which is understandable if you want him to stay/return to being Awakening!Anders more than what he becomes in DA2. I prefer his growth in DA2. XD;

[LoneWolf4191]

panamakira wrote...

Some people say Connor's situation is different or maybe I'm being too optimistic but maybe there is a way to separate them, I just don't know if it's too late for Anders, I don't know.

At the end he claims Justice didn't make him do anything and I believe it to an extent. Justice is still a part of him so he can't say Justice didn't corrupt him as much as he did to Justice.

I agree with @maselphie. I don't think even people in Thedas know enough about the Fade and magic.

The Fade and Magic are like the things unexplained in our world. We have never been to the bottom of the ocean and if you want to get broader, we have never really explored even this galaxy...The Fade has so many possibliltes and so many unkowns as you said. So potentially there could be a way...

[maselphie]

LoneWolf4191 wrote...

But Justice didn't want to become a sprit of Vengence in the first place...but then again, sine he has been corrupted, he probably doesn't care about that anymore now and his main concerns are freeing the mages.. But then what after the mages are freed? If their freed? Does he settle down or move to a new task? But if he truly wanted the freedom of every mage he would have to help those possesed as well and he would have to give up Anders somehow...it's all confusing...or maybe Iam just making it that way lol.

I agree, I think since Justice was changed to Vengeance, him being separated from his host does not work towards his purpose. After watching how demons will do or say anything to possess people, and considering Vengeance is a type of demon (we're assuming that, aren't we?) that he wouldn't outright do anything to separate. Maaaybe. I do think Justice wants to be plain ole Justice again. But then ... he's just an idea/spirit. He is what he is at the moment, he is what he represents. But they're supposedly one mind now, and Anders wants him free ... so I guess he speaks for the both of them.

I don't know what Justice would do once he was freed. Perhaps look for a new host? That's why spirits should stay in the Fade. They don't belong here, and are just screwing us up. Give him another corpse, people! He's ruining the live ones!

[panamakira]

nenosronhir wrote...

Whatever resolve led him to kill innocents was also something that Justice clearly influenced. To him it was claiming vengeance to the mages cause by destroying the Chantry. I'm not naive enough to think that Anders didn't necessarily wanted to do something for a mage revolution.

My impression is not that the act of destroying the Chantry itself is the vengeance or justice they were looking for, but what it provokes from Meredith, and the cascade of events that follow.

Other than that we seem to agree on what Justice does, but where I think Anders is more for Justice, you seem to think he's less for it? - which is understandable if you want him to stay/return to being Awakening!Anders more than what he becomes in DA2. I prefer his growth in DA2. XD;

But that doesn't change the outcome. Whatever their intention was they still got a bunch of peopel killed for it.

Well that is the impression I got when I rival-manced him. I don't know how it is on the friendship path where you agree with him on everything but on the rivalry path he tells you things like.." you're right...I'm loosing control of Justice....blah blah...." Next thing I know he's having blackouts, Justice is telling me off, he's being secretive, lies to me and then blows up a Chantry. Yeah I feel like I have reason to belive both him and Justice are not entirely in their best condition to pass judgement on their "revolution". Anders maybe not winning. If he's questoning his beliefs one day and blowing up Chantries the next....

[maselphie]

LoneWolf4191 wrote...

The Fade and Magic are like the things unexplained in our world. We have never been to the bottom of the ocean and if you want to get broader, we have never really explored even this galaxy...The Fade has so many possibliltes and so many unkowns as you said. So potentially there could be a way...

So you're saying ... if the Fade is infinite, so are possibilties. Therefore, all possibilities exist! Therefore --! 

[LoneWolf4191]

nenosronhir wrote...

Whatever resolve led him to kill innocents was also something that Justice clearly influenced. To him it was claiming vengeance to the mages cause by destroying the Chantry. I'm not naive enough to think that Anders didn't necessarily wanted to do something for a mage revolution.

My impression is not that the act of destroying the Chantry itself is the vengeance or justice they were looking for, but what it provokes from Meredith, and the cascade of events that follow.

Other than that we seem to agree on what Justice does, but where I think Anders is more for Justice, you seem to think he's less for it? - which is understandable if you want him to stay/return to being Awakening!Anders more than what he becomes in DA2. I prefer his growth in DA2. XD;

I liked the witty comments he made, even though I have not played Awakening yet, but I listen to the banter online. But I also like him in DA 2, maybe a little happier. But to me (who again has now played Awakening) He seems more grateful and continually reminds you... He was suprised when I let him live and still loved him, but Sebastian went on a tangent and began telling me off... But I listened to some bater and he was asking Fan if they should turn in "them" in (assuming the apostates, meaning Anders, Merrill and myself) Right in front of Hawke.... and then he said something after you met Lilinena about mages right in front of you, despite Hawke being a mage...

[panamakira]

Ugh....I think we might need a Fade DLC....so we can get our answers but I hate the Fade. I'll be happy with a codex.

[LoneWolf4191]

maselphie wrote...

LoneWolf4191 wrote...

The Fade and Magic are like the things unexplained in our world. We have never been to the bottom of the ocean and if you want to get broader, we have never really explored even this galaxy...The Fade has so many possibliltes and so many unkowns as you said. So potentially there could be a way...

So you're saying ... if the Fade is infinite, so are possibilties. Therefore, all possibilities exist! Therefore --! 

 I didn't panamakira  did. lol, but essentially, yes...there are possiblities because no one knows the extent of Magic or the Fade.

[LoneWolf4191]

panamakira wrote...

Ugh....I think we might need a Fade DLC....so we can get our answers but I hate the Fade. I'll be happy with a codex.

 I hate the fade too, creeps me out...thats why I always dreaded it in the Orgins storyline, because it takes so long...but you had to do it anyway.... =_=

[Kim Shepard]

maselphie wrote...

Aww, c'mon! Villains get the best treatment. While your companions are your backup singers, your villains get the awesome animations and frames, and battles, and development, and the game references them constantly and everything leads up them -- it's putting them on a shrine. They're the point of the game. I say Anders be the point of the next game. 

... realistically, though, it's going to be another plot-driven epic mash of Morrigan's god baby, Flemeth, Sandal and probably goddamned Andraste herself.

They do get very nice treatment... until they die. xD Not that death would necessarily be the end of Anders/Justice. Wynne was kept alive by a spirit, after all. (Uh-oh, this must be where the "multiple deaths" part comes in.) I don't have to worry much about it though. I'm sure whatever happens with them next will be awesome, even if it's sad. *complete faith in BioWare*

Also, I'd like to see Flemeth comment on the change she predicted. She gets to say, "I told you so."

[Lady Dino]

I think if Anders comes back in DA3 and you killed him in your DA2 save it will probably be just Justice/Vengeance haunting Anders' dead body and only for plot related content. Otherwise they have no reason to bring him back. I also think bringing him back exactly as he was would be a kick in the face to the players who killed him.

All the same, unless there is some plot heavy need for Anders or Justice in DA3 he wont be there.

[maselphie]

Kim Shepard wrote...

They do get very nice treatment... until they die. xD

To be fair, your companions do too, apparently. lol. And hey, Anders was already dead! That's why he's a zombie!


I actually like the Fade, but they sucked the fun out of it by making a huge, unskippable, tedious, back-tracking puzzle out of it. And in DA2, I took one look at the barrel puzzles and was like "no, F you, Fade. I don't have time to play with you this time. F OFF!" and left. No idea what those barrels do or if I even care what they do.

But I do love the idea, the mystery and danger of it, and I love how it's designed. I preferred DA:O's design, and not just because it was the first. I liked chairs and crap floating around.

[panamakira]

LoneWolf4191 wrote...

panamakira wrote...

Ugh....I think we might need a Fade DLC....so we can get our answers but I hate the Fade. I'll be happy with a codex.

 I hate the fade too, creeps me out...thats why I always dreaded it in the Orgins storyline, because it takes so long...but you had to do it anyway.... =_=

Yes. The Fade can suck it! Took me forever to get through that. Anyway yeah I have way too many questions. Bioware left a lot of things unanswered so I can't say there is no way to separate Anders from Justice.