57020 réponses à ce sujet

[ipgd]

blauwvis wrote...

Right, do you mind if I start quoting you wholesale whenever I feel compelled to explain what I think DA2's doing and why I like it?  My responses tend more towards the disjointed ramble.

On a lighter note, I sometimes wonder just how much data Bioware collects on our game playing.  I have this exaggerated vision of Gaider and Hepler with lab coats and clipboards, watching a monitor...

DG: "Hmm, it appears that Subject #4893 has watched the Anders love scene over 200 times."
Hepler: "I don't know whether to be flattered or disturbed."

Go ahead. Maybe if someone gets something out of my pathetically obsessive nerd fanwank I'll look like less of a loser !!!!!

[YamiSnuffles]

blauwvis wrote...

On a lighter note, I sometimes wonder just how much data Bioware collects on our game playing.  I have this exaggerated vision of Gaider and Hepler with lab coats and clipboards, watching a monitor...

DG: "Hmm, it appears that Subject #4893 has watched the Anders love scene over 200 times."
Hepler: "I don't know whether to be flattered or disturbed."

I sometimes wonder this myself. If so, my Anders obsession should come through loud and clear. I have saves before each Anders dialogue and thus have replaid all of those scenes a bunch of times. As it is, youtube seems to have me pegged pretty well from all the times I've searched for Anders videos.

And before I leave to have some semblance of a life, I shall give you all a parting (re)gift. For great Justice and all that:

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 17 avril 2011 - 05:53 .

[Purposeof-Flight]

My recommendations on YouTube are all full of Alistair&Anders now.
And a few kitty videos. lol

[mellifera]

Yeah, I like playing a character swept up in the same crap that everyone else does. When people list that as a reason to hate the game I get confused. Do you really have to be the big goddamn hero in every game? It's like their pride IRL is wounded if their character isn't he best, the brightest, the strongest, the most virile, etc.

[Kawamura]

autumnyte wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

That's about right.

It's actually a really good feeling for the character I've got. He's very aware that something is happening and the whole explosion actually is a relief in some way.

It's like, ah, here. Done. Free. The sword fell and now he can act again.

Yes, it really was well executed from a character development standpoint. Every quest felt like I was walking on eggshells. Then you click on Anders during any quest after Justice, and he basically says 'I think it's best we focus on the task at hand'. So emotionally aloof, so single-minded.

My Hawke felt that same sense you're articulating of "at least it's over now" when the Chantry went Ka-Boom. I was glad to have experienced it in the two playthroughs where I romanced Anders, but it was brutal, and not sure I'm up for it again.

I can't play any other Hawke. I'm a one-character guy. Or else I start to feel really weird. Every play through I complete is just a refinement of that one character. I played the demo as a diplomatic Hawke, got a feel for the world in my first play through and went **** IT and made a snarky Hawke.

To me, sarcastic Hawke is the only one that can survive the story I've played. I don't know fully how to explain it. It's like, being sarcastic and funny and sometimes socially dumb is my idea of being a character that sorta has this detatchment from his life, like it's a story he's commenting on. A diplo Hawke is trying to fix it, while a red Hawke is trying to cut through things, but a Snarky Hawke has an awareness that I love.

He knows this story. He's read it before, he's seen it on stages. He knows he's the protagonist for part of it, then the second (and supporting) half of a doomed romance in the last act.

I mean. It's not the same for everyone. It's got a lot of head canon in it. But that's how I play it.

Modifié par Kawamura, 17 avril 2011 - 06:05 .

[Star]

MG800 wrote...

autumnyte wrote...

LT123 wrote...
Hitchhiker's Guide FTW!

Fenris walked out on me.  This is depressing.

It's kind of weird how the two male romances are opposites at least so far (Act II). After the love scene, Anders was all I LOVE YOU CAN I MOVE IN and Fenris is like, "I can't handle this. This was a mistake" and won't talk to me.

And it really does feel like a mistake. I feel kind of dumped. Maybe if I get a different version of the wall slam scene it will feel better. Fenris just looked kind of surprised in the one I got.

But I will stay loyal, because knowing he's waltzing around with Hawke's favor while Anders is living in Hawke's house would make me feel bad. Maybe it gets better in Act III.

I'm always struck by how the Anders and Fenris' romances are polar opposites, much like their characters. Hawke would give his eye teeth for a happy medium. The Fenris romance tortures me in Act 2, and the Anders one tortures me in Act 3, so it's like a choice between pain now or pain later. 

It does get better in Act 3, though! Waaaay better.

Frankly, Fenris romance makes little sense due to his 3 years of brooding about one night stand. But maybe that's becouse I rivalmanced him - and there's a passion, arguing, sexual tenson then (I guess) sex and after three years he confessed he loves my Hawke... am I the only one who see's something illogical about that?

Fen's romance actually did make some sense to me and yeah -- definitely improves in Act 3.  Yes, he walked out after a one night stand but the relationship doesn't really end unless you actively choose to romance someone else.  While he doesn't move in and while it's clear there's no additional sex for that 3 years, there is some kind of understanding; a tenderness about his interactions with Hawke.  For example, after the Alone quest if Hawke tells him that he's got her (or him as the case may be!) the way Fen touches Hawke's face and looks at her makes it clear that something is still smoldering under the surface.  I can imagine how difficult it must be for someone who has survived by trusting absolutely no one; of not surrendering to feelings, to touch, to connection to suddenly feel connected; to want to be touched and held. 

[nekhbet]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

blauwvis wrote...

On a lighter note, I sometimes wonder just how much data Bioware collects on our game playing.  I have this exaggerated vision of Gaider and Hepler with lab coats and clipboards, watching a monitor...

DG: "Hmm, it appears that Subject #4893 has watched the Anders love scene over 200 times."
Hepler: "I don't know whether to be flattered or disturbed."

I sometimes wonder this myself. If so, my Anders obsession should come through loud and clear. I have saves before each Anders dialogue and thus have replaid all of those scenes a bunch of times. As it is, youtube seems to have me pegged pretty well from all the times I've searched for Anders videos.

And before I leave to have some semblance of a life, I shall give you all a parting (re)gift. For great Justice and all that:

Technically, they can collect pretty much anything. I doubt they collect just everything, but from a game design PoV the usage of romances is something I'd definitely track. And then you also need to check how often individuals played each romance out.... But probably as a whole PT instead of individual scenes.

And where did Swanders appear to my quote pyramid? Well, reposting anyway... I like Swanders.

[TripLight]

The Flaws we were presented with, that we had to deal with are what made the game, IMO. I consider it testament to the talent of Bioware's Writing staff that they can make so many people rage, cry, scream, and shock them into such visceral reactions.

Bring on the flawed, jaded heroes/anti-heroes/villians, I want something I can relate to on a level.

[shiba5]

ipgd wrote...

OH BOY I WAKE UP AND MISS THINGS



DA2 really operates out of the expectation of sequels, in a way; with any sequel, you inevitably go into the game with certain expectations of the narrative structure based on the experiences of the original work. A lot of the dramatic tension in the climactic moments of DA2 work precisely because DAO conditioned you to expect free agency and significant influence over events (even if there was ultimately only an illusion of choice in many cases). DA2 often eschews even the illusion of choice all together, and deliberately creates tension by denying the player the satisfaction of their choices having impact -- a kind of powerlessness that's enabled because of your frame of reference. It makes you empathize with Hawke in a way that a purely railroaded narrative couldn't, because the series has shown you agency and actually has something to take away.

Most people seem to react negatively to this, because apparently the compulsion to resist change overrules all fun, but I really like how it was done. The denial of catharsis is as much of a compelling literary device as catharsis itself.

Hope you don't mind, but I just copy/pasted this into an email to a friend who has been ranting non-stop about the "horrible story" - that he's played through 4x. <_<
I gave you cred.

[shiba5]

MG800 wrote...

Edit: Shiba, you can't tease people like that! *roll for persuasion* Picture, pretty please?

I tried. He refused to remove his sunglasses. He's definitely on to me.
I did convince him to get some glowing UV contact lenses for Halloween and dress up as Janders though so maybe he'll be in a more photographic mood then. Now to go kill a bunch of crows...  j/k

[nekhbet]

Oh btw. Does anyone have the link to the Hawke hair/face mod that enables customising the default looks? For both dudes and chicks, if such exists. I can't seem to find it...

[Jean]

JHFHBE F

EEEE

The patch fixed Justice's eyes. Now they're actually on his eyes instead of his cheeks

[signcherie]

ipgd wrote...

OH BOY I WAKE UP AND MISS THINGS



DA2 really operates out of the expectation of sequels, in a way; with any sequel, you inevitably go into the game with certain expectations of the narrative structure based on the experiences of the original work. A lot of the dramatic tension in the climactic moments of DA2 work precisely because DAO conditioned you to expect free agency and significant influence over events (even if there was ultimately only an illusion of choice in many cases). DA2 often eschews even the illusion of choice all together, and deliberately creates tension by denying the player the satisfaction of their choices having impact -- a kind of powerlessness that's enabled because of your frame of reference. It makes you empathize with Hawke in a way that a purely railroaded narrative couldn't, because the series has shown you agency and actually has something to take away.

Most people seem to react negatively to this, because apparently the compulsion to resist change overrules all fun, but I really like how it was done. The denial of catharsis is as much of a compelling literary device as catharsis itself.

The only thing I would question is how deliberate this was on Bioware's part. The reason I question this is because I thought, pre-release, they were touting Hawke as the most important figure in Thedas history. But when we actually play the game, he/she is...not.

Nevertheless, I love the game, love most of the changes, and ok, my personal preference would be to have more of a hand in the way things end, but it doesn't stop me from appreciating everything that is great here.

[Purposeof-Flight]

Batteries wrote...

JHFHBE F

EEEE

The patch fixed Justice's eyes. Now they're actually on his eyes instead of his cheeks

REALLY?
-squee-
I really have to get my WA fixed.
<_<

[autumnyte]

nekhbet wrote...

Oh btw. Does anyone have the link to the Hawke hair/face mod that enables customising the default looks? For both dudes and chicks, if such exists. I can't seem to find it...

www.dragonagenexus.com/downloads/file.php

[mellifera]

nekhbet wrote...

Oh btw. Does anyone have the link to the Hawke hair/face mod that enables customising the default looks? For both dudes and chicks, if such exists. I can't seem to find it...

Derp, 'd

Modifié par yukidama, 17 avril 2011 - 06:12 .

[shiba5]

signcherie wrote...

The only thing I would question is how deliberate this was on Bioware's part. The reason I question this is because I thought, pre-release, they were touting Hawke as the most important figure in Thedas history. But when we actually play the game, he/she is...not.

I took that as part of the joke. trollololol

[Jean]

signcherie wrote...


The only thing I would question is how deliberate this was on Bioware's part. The reason I question this is because I thought, pre-release, they were touting Hawke as the most important figure in Thedas history. But when we actually play the game, he/she is...not.

Marketing.

Plus whatever the heck Hawke does during the three years after Anders blows up the chantry. Maybe it was important

[nekhbet]

Thanks!

And yeah, I'm in the trollolol camp with shiba. The best jokes cost friends, and apparently devout players, too!

[shiba5]

Batteries wrote...

signcherie wrote...


The only thing I would question is how deliberate this was on Bioware's part. The reason I question this is because I thought, pre-release, they were touting Hawke as the most important figure in Thedas history. But when we actually play the game, he/she is...not.

Marketing.

Plus whatever the heck Hawke does during the three years after Anders blows up the chantry. Maybe it was important

...but not in this game.
She's probably collecting kittens.

[leggywillow]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Now I kind of wish I had a save near that point. I love punching that demon. Made me feel badass. Plus, I love doing it after Anders warns against the demon, It's kind of like, "Don't worry sweety. I'd never make a deal with a demon. *FALCON PUNCH!!!*"

My Hawke just played way too much Resident Evil 5.  She fancies herself a bit of a rock-puncher ala Chris Redfield.

Modifié par leggywillow, 17 avril 2011 - 06:20 .

[signcherie]

They are certainly evil enough to do it as a joke. I tend to believe, however, that they originally meant for Hawke to have more control, make more of an impact, but the game somehow got edited into the form we ended up with. That, or they underestimated how powerless the player would actually feel.

Nevertheless, I'm not complaining. I love the game. I'm just...discussing for the sake of discussion.

[Threeparts]

signcherie wrote...

The only thing I would question is how deliberate this was on Bioware's part. The reason I question this is because I thought, pre-release, they were touting Hawke as the most important figure in Thedas history. But when we actually play the game, he/she is...not.

Nevertheless, I love the game, love most of the changes, and ok, my personal preference would be to have more of a hand in the way things end, but it doesn't stop me from appreciating everything that is great here.

Arguably, that person would have been Anders - even if he dies, his actions start a war that brings down the Circles and causes the Chantry to lose control of the Templars. Hawke was able to help him, sure, but we could also send him away in Act II and have nothing to do with his actions.
However, we haven't seen the result of Hawke killing the Arishok yet. Did that spark an entirely different war that we simply haven't heard about because it's outside of Cassandra's purview?

Is Hawke king or saviour of the world? No. But that little group of adventurers were a big part in the chain of events that are, to our knowlege, reshaping the politics of Thedas. Important might've been the wrong word on BW's part. I'd go with influential, myself.

Modifié par Threeparts, 17 avril 2011 - 06:22 .

[Poetics124]

signcherie wrote...

ipgd wrote...

OH BOY I WAKE UP AND MISS THINGS



DA2 really operates out of the expectation of sequels, in a way; with any sequel, you inevitably go into the game with certain expectations of the narrative structure based on the experiences of the original work. A lot of the dramatic tension in the climactic moments of DA2 work precisely because DAO conditioned you to expect free agency and significant influence over events (even if there was ultimately only an illusion of choice in many cases). DA2 often eschews even the illusion of choice all together, and deliberately creates tension by denying the player the satisfaction of their choices having impact -- a kind of powerlessness that's enabled because of your frame of reference. It makes you empathize with Hawke in a way that a purely railroaded narrative couldn't, because the series has shown you agency and actually has something to take away.

Most people seem to react negatively to this, because apparently the compulsion to resist change overrules all fun, but I really like how it was done. The denial of catharsis is as much of a compelling literary device as catharsis itself.

The only thing I would question is how deliberate this was on Bioware's part. The reason I question this is because I thought, pre-release, they were touting Hawke as the most important figure in Thedas history. But when we actually play the game, he/she is...not.

Nevertheless, I love the game, love most of the changes, and ok, my personal preference would be to have more of a hand in the way things end, but it doesn't stop me from appreciating everything that is great here.

I think Hawke is still very important, but not in the way that we all thought Hawke would be.   Anders acts and Hawke's reaction to that act is what changes the world.  Hawke is the one mention as the one who inflames the world, although Anders was the lighting match.  Hawke was pretty much the gasoline that makes it go further than it would have on it's own.

[ipgd]

signcherie wrote...

The only thing I would question is how deliberate this was on Bioware's part. The reason I question this is because I thought, pre-release, they were touting Hawke as the most important figure in Thedas history. But when we actually play the game, he/she is...not.

Nevertheless, I love the game, love most of the changes, and ok, my personal preference would be to have more of a hand in the way things end, but it doesn't stop me from appreciating everything that is great here.

I just interpret it as an effort by the writers to take what they had to work with (i.e. a tight budget and deadline that pretty much precluded the sprawling consequence tree of DAO) and make it impactful in its own right, instead of attempting to poorly recreate something they obviously wouldn't have the resources to do. It may not have been what people wanted, but there's a certain artistic value in the denial of expectations.

Marketing and writing are also entirely different areas, at any rate. What the people who are trying to sell the game want and what the people who actually built the game want are often diametrically opposed.

It's also possible they were trolling us. Expectations color your experiences of a narrative so much that certain kinds of advertising and posturing can actually contribute to the dramatic tension.