57020 réponses à ce sujet

[cleosilver]

Threeparts wrote...

signcherie wrote...

The only thing I would question is how deliberate this was on Bioware's part. The reason I question this is because I thought, pre-release, they were touting Hawke as the most important figure in Thedas history. But when we actually play the game, he/she is...not.

Nevertheless, I love the game, love most of the changes, and ok, my personal preference would be to have more of a hand in the way things end, but it doesn't stop me from appreciating everything that is great here.

Arguably, that person would have been Anders - even if he dies, his actions start a war that brings down the Circles and causes the Chantry to lose control of the Templars. Hawke was able to help him, sure, but we could also send him away in Act II and have nothing to do with his actions.
However, we haven't seen the result of Hawke killing the Arishok yet. Did that spark an entirely different war that we simply haven't heard about because it's outside of Cassandra's purview?

If Hawke king or saviour of the world? No. But that little group of adventurers were a big part in the chain of events that are, to our knowlege, reshaping the politics of Thedas. Important might've been the wrong word on BW's part. I'd go with influential, myself.

I think it may simply be due to the way stories change as they're told. We know that before she hears Varric's version Cassandra thinks Hawke was behind it all.  I wondr if thats because at the time of the Big Boom Hawke was the Champion, a known figure, while Anders was a just scruffy apostate that was known to associate with Hawke.  If you weren't actually there and just heard the rumours and stories spread by the survivors who would you think was probably the driving figure out of the two? Champion or scruffy apostate?


Edit. I don't have many screen shots.

Modifié par cleosilver, 17 avril 2011 - 06:27 .

[pagerunner]

Batteries wrote...

signcherie wrote...


The only thing I would question is how deliberate this was on Bioware's part. The reason I question this is because I thought, pre-release, they were touting Hawke as the most important figure in Thedas history. But when we actually play the game, he/she is...not.

Marketing.

Plus whatever the heck Hawke does during the three years after Anders blows up the chantry. Maybe it was important

The other day I pulled out the DA2 t-shirt I got at PAX last year and read the slogan on the back: "Rise to Power... by Any Means Necessary."

All I could think was, "...really?  Because that was not the game I just played, guys."   

It might actually work for Anders, really, because he was bound and determined to do whatever was needed for his cause.... but Hawke?  Not so much.  Hawke was not driving this car.  Hawke was thrust into the middle of a messy, complicated situation and really came to power almost by accident.  Even if you end up siding with the templars and get crowned viscount by the end of the thing, chances are, that wasn't your goal.  It's part of why I find this game so fascinating.  The situations you're fighting through in this plot are way bigger than you.

[shiba5]

signcherie wrote...

They are certainly evil enough to do it as a joke. I tend to believe, however, that they originally meant for Hawke to have more control, make more of an impact, but the game somehow got edited into the form we ended up with. That, or they underestimated how powerless the player would actually feel.

Nevertheless, I'm not complaining. I love the game. I'm just...discussing for the sake of discussion.

I just had a big discussion about this with my friend who's played through 4x yet insists it's the worst story ever. So now I think, if you embrace the Anders character and roll with the punches, you will enjoy the game. My friend didn't like the character. He didn't really try to figure him out, and so when the Chantry went up he felt like the game was completely out of his hands.
I told him to go replay Awakenings and get back to me if he still thinks Anders was "jolly" knowing what he knows now.

Modifié par shiba5, 17 avril 2011 - 06:32 .

[autumnyte]

Poetics124 wrote...
I think Hawke is still very important, but not in the way that we all thought Hawke would be.   Anders acts and Hawke's reaction to that act is what changes the world.  Hawke is the one mention as the one who inflames the world, although Anders was the lighting match.  Hawke was pretty much the gasoline that makes it go further than it would have on it's own.

Without Hawke, I'm not convinced Anders would ever have been able to blow up the Chantry. I'm fairly certain he would have been captured by the Templars and/or would not have had the resources and support to execute the plan. If you're friends, he even articulates as much. 

So even though it was indirect and unintentional, I do think Hawke's presence had a significant impact. There were lots of dominos with Hawke's name on them. But, Hawke was just kind of swept up in it all.

I love that aspect of the story. It feels more real.

[Kawamura]

pagerunner wrote...

Batteries wrote...

signcherie wrote...


The only thing I would question is how deliberate this was on Bioware's part. The reason I question this is because I thought, pre-release, they were touting Hawke as the most important figure in Thedas history. But when we actually play the game, he/she is...not.

Marketing.

Plus whatever the heck Hawke does during the three years after Anders blows up the chantry. Maybe it was important

The other day I pulled out the DA2 t-shirt I got at PAX last year and read the slogan on the back: "Rise to Power... by Any Means Necessary."

All I could think was, "...really?  Because that was not the game I just played, guys."   

It might actually work for Anders, really, because he was bound and determined to do whatever was needed for his cause.... but Hawke?  Not so much.  Hawke was not driving this car.  Hawke was thrust into the middle of a messy, complicated situation and really came to power almost by accident.  Even if you end up siding with the templars and get crowned viscount by the end of the thing, chances are, that wasn't your goal.  It's part of why I find this game so fascinating.  The situations you're fighting through in this plot are way bigger than you.

Well, if you want to be Viscount, you have to sorta slaughter a whole Circle.

And to be Champion, you sorta have to slaughter a whole bunch of Qunari.

[shiba5]

autumnyte wrote...

Poetics124 wrote...
I think Hawke is still very important, but not in the way that we all thought Hawke would be.   Anders acts and Hawke's reaction to that act is what changes the world.  Hawke is the one mention as the one who inflames the world, although Anders was the lighting match.  Hawke was pretty much the gasoline that makes it go further than it would have on it's own.

Without Hawke, I'm not convinced Anders would ever have been able to blow up the Chantry. I'm fairly certain he would have been captured by the Templars and/or would not have had the resources and support to execute the plan. If you're friends, he even articulates as much. 

So even though it was indirect and unintentional, I do think Hawke's presence had a significant impact. There were lots of dominos with Hawke's name on them. But, Hawke was just kind of swept up in it all.

I love that aspect of the story. It feels more real.

Anders has to ride around on Hawke's coattails. Maybe I'm too cynical, but the whole idea of getting to the end of the game and finding out that the plot is being driven by a NPC just screamed fan trolling to me. I thought it was awesome.

[signcherie]

ipgd wrote...

I just interpret it as an effort by the writers to take what they had to work with (i.e. a tight budget and deadline that pretty much precluded the sprawling consequence tree of DAO) and make it impactful in its own right, instead of attempting to poorly recreate something they obviously wouldn't have the resources to do. It may not have been what people wanted, but there's a certain artistic value in the denial of expectations.

Marketing and writing are also entirely different areas, at any rate. What the people who are trying to sell the game want and what the people who actually built the game want are often diametrically opposed.

It's also possible they were trolling us. Expectations color your experiences of a narrative so much that certain kinds of advertising and posturing can actually contribute to the dramatic tension.

True, and by no means do I wish to argue that the finished game was flawed or lacking in artistic value. I could answer some of the various points that are being brought up, but I think then I would find myself arguing a position that I don't actually agree with -- namely, that there is something wrong with this game and Bioware should have done something different. I actually think the writing is brilliant and I thought, even on my first playthrough, that the story was much deeper and more developed than Origins. I shall leave it at that.

[pagerunner]

Kawamura wrote...

pagerunner wrote...

Batteries wrote...

signcherie wrote...


The only thing I would question is how deliberate this was on Bioware's part. The reason I question this is because I thought, pre-release, they were touting Hawke as the most important figure in Thedas history. But when we actually play the game, he/she is...not.

Marketing.

Plus whatever the heck Hawke does during the three years after Anders blows up the chantry. Maybe it was important

The other day I pulled out the DA2 t-shirt I got at PAX last year and read the slogan on the back: "Rise to Power... by Any Means Necessary."

All I could think was, "...really?  Because that was not the game I just played, guys."   

It might actually work for Anders, really, because he was bound and determined to do whatever was needed for his cause.... but Hawke?  Not so much.  Hawke was not driving this car.  Hawke was thrust into the middle of a messy, complicated situation and really came to power almost by accident.  Even if you end up siding with the templars and get crowned viscount by the end of the thing, chances are, that wasn't your goal.  It's part of why I find this game so fascinating.  The situations you're fighting through in this plot are way bigger than you.

Well, if you want to be Viscount, you have to sorta slaughter a whole Circle.

And to be Champion, you sorta have to slaughter a whole bunch of Qunari.

Right, but at least in my experience you weren't doing that with the express intent of becoming either thing.  It's more like "WE HAVE A SITUATION ON OUR HANDS, GUYS, let's go do something about it," not necessarily "Hey, there's totally a vacancy here... how about I go step up and get myself a crown?"

I think there's a few places in the game where you can make hints about wanting to become viscount (I remember noticing one in the conversation with King Alistair) but it's not like that's the driving force of the plot, last I checked. 

[Purposeof-Flight]

Here's what I don't understand.
How the events of Origins only spanned over a year.
WTF? You did SO MUCH **** in that game...and that was all squeezed into a year? What with travel times and all?
And it feels like you do less in Kirkwall, but that game spans over ten years. >_>

Just thought I'd break into your guys' intelligent conversation to throw one of my infantile thoughts in.

[shiba5]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Here's what I don't understand.
How the events of Origins only spanned over a year.
WTF? You did SO MUCH **** in that game...and that was all squeezed into a year? What with travel times and all?
And it feels like you do less in Kirkwall, but that game spans over ten years. >_>

Just thought I'd break into your guys' intelligent conversation to throw one of my infantile thoughts in.

You run really, really fast in Origins.

edit: How come there are no horses in Thedas?

Modifié par shiba5, 17 avril 2011 - 06:48 .

[Jean]

It's an Orlesian thing.

[LT123]

shiba5 wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Here's what I don't understand.
How the events of Origins only spanned over a year.
WTF? You did SO MUCH **** in that game...and that was all squeezed into a year? What with travel times and all?
And it feels like you do less in Kirkwall, but that game spans over ten years. >_>

Just thought I'd break into your guys' intelligent conversation to throw one of my infantile thoughts in.

You run really, really fast in Origins.

edit: How come there are no horses in Thedas?

There are horses, you just don't see them in the game.

[nekhbet]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Here's what I don't understand.
How the events of Origins only spanned over a year.
WTF? You did SO MUCH **** in that game...and that was all squeezed into a year? What with travel times and all?
And it feels like you do less in Kirkwall, but that game spans over ten years. >_>

Just thought I'd break into your guys' intelligent conversation to throw one of my infantile thoughts in.

If there's one thing I find silly about the DA2 plotline it's the passing of time. It doesn't feel like time's passing, you wouldn't notice it unless it was mentioned. Could have done with just 3 years passing, if it was necessary to have the story span over a longer time. Or simply give us more of those 10 years (or 7 years, depending how you count it).

This is related to why I'd rather have Hawke in DA3 than the Warden. I think the Warden's tale is complete, but Hawke's is not. Or an expansion to DA2, anything that tells us more of this story.

[LastFadingSmile]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Here's what I don't understand.
How the events of Origins only spanned over a year.
WTF? You did SO MUCH **** in that game...and that was all squeezed into a year? What with travel times and all?
And it feels like you do less in Kirkwall, but that game spans over ten years. >_>

Just thought I'd break into your guys' intelligent conversation to throw one of my infantile thoughts in.

I think you're underestimating just how much time Hawke spends lounging around his/her underwear eating bon-bons and reading Isabela's pornos.

Or maybe that's just my Hawkes. Becuase they're such jerks humanitarians. 

[Poetics124]

autumnyte wrote...

Poetics124 wrote...
I think Hawke is still very important, but not in the way that we all thought Hawke would be.   Anders acts and Hawke's reaction to that act is what changes the world.  Hawke is the one mention as the one who inflames the world, although Anders was the lighting match.  Hawke was pretty much the gasoline that makes it go further than it would have on it's own.

Without Hawke, I'm not convinced Anders would ever have been able to blow up the Chantry. I'm fairly certain he would have been captured by the Templars and/or would not have had the resources and support to execute the plan. If you're friends, he even articulates as much. 

So even though it was indirect and unintentional, I do think Hawke's presence had a significant impact. There were lots of dominos with Hawke's name on them. But, Hawke was just kind of swept up in it all.

I love that aspect of the story. It feels more real.

Heck, Meredith pretty much tells Hawke that Anders is protected because of Hawke.   And I think that is what starts  to bother Anders.  His brothers and sistes are being persecuted while he is protected because of Hawke.  That has to weigh on him in a lot of ways and bugs Justice all the more.

Modifié par Poetics124, 17 avril 2011 - 06:52 .

[shiba5]

LT123 wrote...

shiba5 wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Here's what I don't understand.
How the events of Origins only spanned over a year.
WTF? You did SO MUCH **** in that game...and that was all squeezed into a year? What with travel times and all?
And it feels like you do less in Kirkwall, but that game spans over ten years. >_>

Just thought I'd break into your guys' intelligent conversation to throw one of my infantile thoughts in.

You run really, really fast in Origins.

edit: How come there are no horses in Thedas?

There are horses, you just don't see them in the game.

And no one ever thinks to ride them...

Someone please draw a picture of Anders on a horse. I don't know where his robes go. He might have to ride side saddle.

[tmp7704]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Here's what I don't understand.
How the events of Origins only spanned over a year.
WTF? You did SO MUCH **** in that game...and that was all squeezed into a year? What with travel times and all?
And it feels like you do less in Kirkwall, but that game spans over ten years. >_>

Most of the timespan in Kirkwall is Varric saying "and then three years have passed". If you take into account just the days when something actually happens, then i don't think whole DA2 experience would take longer than 3-4 months with average of one quest per 1-2 days.

DA2 cast doesn't have archdemon breathing down their collective necks, so they can take much longer breaks between instances of actually doing stuff. And apparently, they do.

[Poetics124]

nekhbet wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Here's what I don't understand.
How the events of Origins only spanned over a year.
WTF? You did SO MUCH **** in that game...and that was all squeezed into a year? What with travel times and all?
And it feels like you do less in Kirkwall, but that game spans over ten years. >_>

Just thought I'd break into your guys' intelligent conversation to throw one of my infantile thoughts in.

If there's one thing I find silly about the DA2 plotline it's the passing of time. It doesn't feel like time's passing, you wouldn't notice it unless it was mentioned. Could have done with just 3 years passing, if it was necessary to have the story span over a longer time. Or simply give us more of those 10 years (or 7 years, depending how you count it).

This is related to why I'd rather have Hawke in DA3 than the Warden. I think the Warden's tale is complete, but Hawke's is not. Or an expansion to DA2, anything that tells us more of this story.

I think this is the most notable aspect in the bombing of the chantry.   When Hawke tries to catch up to Orsino and Meredith it's daytime.  But then it's night time by the time they get to Lowtown and the bomb goes off.  Which is probably why people think that Anders exploded the bomb in broad daylight when he didn't.

[obnoxiousgas]

Kolotosa wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Here's what I don't understand.
How the events of Origins only spanned over a year.
WTF? You did SO MUCH **** in that game...and that was all squeezed into a year? What with travel times and all?
And it feels like you do less in Kirkwall, but that game spans over ten years. >_>

Just thought I'd break into your guys' intelligent conversation to throw one of my infantile thoughts in.

I think you're underestimating just how much time Hawke spends lounging around his/her underwear eating bon-bons and reading Isabela's pornos.

Or maybe that's just my Hawkes. Becuase they're such jerks humanitarians. 

There are a lot of uses for a phallic tuber, okay?

[signcherie]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Here's what I don't understand.
How the events of Origins only spanned over a year.
WTF? You did SO MUCH **** in that game...and that was all squeezed into a year? What with travel times and all?
And it feels like you do less in Kirkwall, but that game spans over ten years. >_>

Just thought I'd break into your guys' intelligent conversation to throw one of my infantile thoughts in.

Yeah. The Warden doesn't really have a choice. He/she has to do all these things or the entire world is going to die. Hawke...doesn't really have anything like that driving him/her. I mean, there's the mage issue and the Qunari issue, but for most of the game there's no urgent timelines on that. So Hawke can relax more and just take care of whatever comes his/her way, I guess.

Edit: I think most of the horses died from difficult-to-animate disease.

Modifié par signcherie, 17 avril 2011 - 06:57 .

[shiba5]

tmp7704 wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Here's what I don't understand.
How the events of Origins only spanned over a year.
WTF? You did SO MUCH **** in that game...and that was all squeezed into a year? What with travel times and all?
And it feels like you do less in Kirkwall, but that game spans over ten years. >_>

Most of the timespan in Kirkwall is Varric saying "and then three years have passed". If you take into account just the days when something actually happens, then i don't think whole DA2 experience would take longer than 3-4 months with average of one quest per 1-2 days.

DA2 cast doesn't have archdemon breathing down their collective necks, so they can take much longer breaks between instances of actually doing stuff. And apparently, they do.

The 3 years are for sexy times. At least that's what went on in my gutter of a mind. Screw the mage plight. Literally.

[Purposeof-Flight]

Kolotosa wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Here's what I don't understand.
How the events of Origins only spanned over a year.
WTF? You did SO MUCH **** in that game...and that was all squeezed into a year? What with travel times and all?
And it feels like you do less in Kirkwall, but that game spans over ten years. >_>

Just thought I'd break into your guys' intelligent conversation to throw one of my infantile thoughts in.

I think you're underestimating just how much time Hawke spends lounging around his/her underwear eating bon-bons and reading Isabela's pornos.

Or maybe that's just my Hawkes. Becuase they're such jerks humanitarians. 

I really think this must be it.
While the Warden was like, "MUST DEFEAT BLIGHT NAAAAOW."
Hawke is just like, "Qunari are taking over the city? How nice."
WTF is Hawke doing for the three years between each Act?

[SurelyForth]

nekhbet wrote...

If there's one thing I find silly about the DA2 plotline it's the passing of time. It doesn't feel like time's passing, you wouldn't notice it unless it was mentioned. Could have done with just 3 years passing, if it was necessary to have the story span over a longer time. Or simply give us more of those 10 years (or 7 years, depending how you count it).

This is related to why I'd rather have Hawke in DA3 than the Warden. I think the Warden's tale is complete, but Hawke's is not. Or an expansion to DA2, anything that tells us more of this story.

There's so many little things that ruin this for me, too. Like Hawke wearing the same armor s/he was wearing at the end of the Deep Roads. Or Donnic being all "Serrah Hawke...or is it always the Champion now?" in Act 3 when he has to be more familiar with Hawke than that, considering Hawke is one of his wife's closest friends.

And then there's the fact that none of the mannequins change, and the city looks no different and the seasons never change. The only Thing is that the default time of day shifts throughout the three acts and that's more for symbolism than immersion. 

[shiba5]

SurelyForth wrote...

nekhbet wrote...

If there's one thing I find silly about the DA2 plotline it's the passing of time. It doesn't feel like time's passing, you wouldn't notice it unless it was mentioned. Could have done with just 3 years passing, if it was necessary to have the story span over a longer time. Or simply give us more of those 10 years (or 7 years, depending how you count it).

This is related to why I'd rather have Hawke in DA3 than the Warden. I think the Warden's tale is complete, but Hawke's is not. Or an expansion to DA2, anything that tells us more of this story.

There's so many little things that ruin this for me, too. Like Hawke wearing the same armor s/he was wearing at the end of the Deep Roads. Or Donnic being all "Serrah Hawke...or is it always the Champion now?" in Act 3 when he has to be more familiar with Hawke than that, considering Hawke is one of his wife's closest friends.

And then there's the fact that none of the mannequins change, and the city looks no different and the seasons never change. The only Thing is that the default time of day shifts throughout the three acts and that's more for symbolism than immersion. 

Don't forget Tuffy!

[Kawamura]

On the plus side, Kirkwall at dusk is almost pretty.

So...that was nice.