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[nyxocity]

Poetics124 wrote...

thenyxie wrote...

It's always perspective in the end.

I loved that about Watchmen. It made the reader/watcher question so much. You'd think the death of 5 million people would ALWAYS be the wrong choice, but when it's that or everyone in the entire world, well...

Of course, Anders and Petrice weren't saving the world, which makes things far more questionable with them. Which is the point, I think.

I think it just shows how the world of ideals actually play out in the real world.   Elthina wants to trust the maker (and she reminds me so much of the man on the roof during a flood story it's crazy) but in the end that trust gets her cablooey.  Petrice wants to drive out a false religion and will do it by any means necessary and gets herself, the viscount, and countless other people murdered.  The Arishok wants to live his life by the Qun and can do it no other way which leads him to his doom.  And Anders blows up a church because he believes being dead is better than being subject to Chantry law (whether he dies to is up to the player).

As Isabella said, ideals are great when they aren't in the real world.

Wow. That's pretty profound. I always thought that line referred to the ending, but it does sum up the entire game in a nutshell. I find myself continually amazed by the amount of thought the writing team put into this game.

ToP:

Modifié par thenyxie, 18 avril 2011 - 06:50 .

[upsettingshorts]

nekhbet wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Heh, well what I mean is the game presents us with so many examples of extremes - from rapey Templars to the worst kinds of Blood Mages - to attempt to force us out of our real world complacency and accept the fictional world as presented as one with incredibly dangerous mages that need to be contained and oppressive and violent Templars that need to be reigned in.  

The goal - again, I think - is to demand the player judge the conflict of the game on its own terms, and not the ones we bring with us.

Honestly, I think if DA2 failed spectacularly at something it's keeping it strictly fictious. We wouldn't be having these forum wars mages vs. templars if it didn't hit people a touch too close. It'd be like KOTOR where it's cool to join the Dark Side even if it's morally abhorrent to them. Right now what you see is the spectrum of "good" and "evil" on both sides, just like in real conflicts. The presence of grey overwhelmes the extremes and makes people think about it enough to take it personally, which is funny because it's exactly the opposite in the real world where people only see black and white. Well, a lot of people do anyway.

Now you got people refusing to play out certain outcomes because they, the players, find them morally abhorrent.

It's either a brilliant accomplishment or a failure from the writers, depending what they aimed for.

I'd go with success, personally. They certainly employed evocative terminology ("The Tranquil solution to the mage problem") and imagery (large exploding civic building) in order to hammer the message home, though. I don't think it comes off as anything other than intentional.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 avril 2011 - 06:43 .

[thebrute7]

nekhbet wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Heh, well what I mean is the game presents us with so many examples of extremes - from rapey Templars to the worst kinds of Blood Mages - to attempt to force us out of our real world complacency and accept the fictional world as presented as one with incredibly dangerous mages that need to be contained and oppressive and violent Templars that need to be reigned in.  

The goal - again, I think - is to demand the player judge the conflict of the game on its own terms, and not the ones we bring with us.

Honestly, I think if DA2 failed spectacularly at something it's keeping it strictly fictious. We wouldn't be having these forum wars mages vs. templars if it didn't hit people a touch too close. It'd be like KOTOR where it's cool to join the Dark Side even if it's morally abhorrent to them. Right now what you see is the spectrum of "good" and "evil" on both sides, just like in real conflicts. The presence of grey overwhelmes the extremes and makes people think about it enough to take it personally, which is funny because it's exactly the opposite in the real world where people only see black and white. Well, a lot of people do anyway.

Now you got people refusing to play out certain outcomes because they, the players, find them morally abhorrent.

It's either a brilliant accomplishment or a failure from the writers, depending what they aimed for.

I agree with you.  In a High Fantasy setting where good and evil are obviously and clearly defined, playing the "evil" side is acceptable because we all know and agree that in the real world it would be wrong and we are just having fun.  But in a setting like this where everything is grey our emotions and opinions seem much stronger don't they?

I personally think it was brilliant, but I likea good debate if people can manage to ignore their emotional attachment to one side or the other for a while.

[Shepard Lives]

"Bippity boppity Justice"?

I love. I love so much.


...you can go back to discussing the complicated stuff now. Sorry for the intermission.

Modifié par Shepard Lives, 18 avril 2011 - 06:46 .

[nekhbet]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I'd go with success, personally. They certainly employed evocative terminology ("The Tranquil solution to the mage problem") and imagery (large exploding civic building) in order to hammer the message home, though. I don't think it comes off as anything other than intentional.

If it's intentional (which I think it is), then they must have known that it will resonate with people in a way that no normal fantasy stuff would. Because it's not fantasy, it's just analogy of real conflict with every gritty detail you normally don't get to see upclose on your screen. Throwing extremes into the mix will not make it seem any more a fantasy, but will just emphasise the analogy.

[upsettingshorts]

Define "normal fantasy stuff."

[MorningBird]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Define "normal fantasy stuff."

Well...

[Poetics124]

nekhbet wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I'd go with success, personally. They certainly employed evocative terminology ("The Tranquil solution to the mage problem") and imagery (large exploding civic building) in order to hammer the message home, though. I don't think it comes off as anything other than intentional.

If it's intentional (which I think it is), then they must have known that it will resonate with people in a way that no normal fantasy stuff would. Because it's not fantasy, it's just analogy of real conflict with every gritty detail you normally don't get to see upclose on your screen. Throwing extremes into the mix will not make it seem any more a fantasy, but will just emphasise the analogy.

 
Well, they did say that they were inspired by Song of Fire and Ice.  This storyline certainly fits that.

[nekhbet]

High fantasy is the household name, stock-standard fantasy I'd guess most people expect from fantasy. Stuff most people can tell apart from reality and will treat it as separate.

Modifié par nekhbet, 18 avril 2011 - 07:04 .

[LastFadingSmile]

MorningBird wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Define "normal fantasy stuff."

Well...

Haha, thanks, I feel ill.

[highcastle]

thebrute7 wrote...

I agree with you.  In a High Fantasy setting where good and evil are obviously and clearly defined, playing the "evil" side is acceptable because we all know and agree that in the real world it would be wrong and we are just having fun.  But in a setting like this where everything is grey our emotions and opinions seem much stronger don't they?

I personally think it was brilliant, but I likea good debate if people can manage to ignore their emotional attachment to one side or the other for a while.

Interesting. I never thought about it from this perspective. We find it easier to play "black" then we do "gray." And in DA2 where the choices are gray versus gray as opposed to black-and-white, we draw harsher lines in the sand in an effort to champion our cause as the one, true, morally superior one. Very interesting.

However, knowing this doesn't change the fact I still can't side with the templars in the end. I don't even think all templars are evil. I just have a hard time justifying Meredith's call for the Right of Annulment given the Circle had zero responsibility for what happened to the Chantry (the supposed impetus for the Right in this case). I can make a better case for killing Anders (who I adore) than I can for this outcome. 

[leggywillow]

MorningBird wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Define "normal fantasy stuff."

Well...

::chokes laughing::  Oh god I can't breathe...

[upsettingshorts]

I side with the Templars for one reason: It is more likely to contain the conflict to Kirkwall - that's the point of the Rite in the first place, containment - than joining in on full scale mage rebellion. Obviously it doesn't contain the conflict, but my character in the moment they're making that choice doesn't know that. I think if your character believes in peace and reform, the Templars are a very reasonable choice given the circumstances.

Choosing the mages is choosing war. Perhaps a righteous war, but it is endorsing Anders' blowing up of the status quo, no question.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 avril 2011 - 07:16 .

[Jean]

leggywillow wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Define "normal fantasy stuff."

Well...

::chokes laughing::  Oh god I can't breathe...

LIGHTNING BOLT

LIGHTNING BOLT

What did I just watch?

[YamiSnuffles]

I'd just like to say having something feel real has more to do with good writing than any genre or sub-genre. With good enough writing, you can have a world with dragons, elves, and magic feel more "real" than some works of fiction set in the real world.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 18 avril 2011 - 07:17 .

[ekurian]

Batteries wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Define "normal fantasy stuff."

Well...

::chokes laughing::  Oh god I can't breathe...

LIGHTNING BOLT

LIGHTNING BOLT

What did I just watch?

Dude, he has some serious uber cooldown on his lightning bolt.

I CALL HAX.

[nekhbet]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I'd just like to say having something feel real has more to do with good writing than any genre or sub-genre. With good enough writing, you can have a world with dragons, elves, and magic feel more "real" than some works of fiction set in the real world.

And in that sense, at the very least, the writers have succeeded. Despite all the talk about plotholes and bad writing, the game shakes people at their very core when they passionately pick a side and refuse to play it any other way.

I think it's great. I'm guilty as charged myself and I'm loving it like no other game I played before. Though I do want to play the templar ending, once Anders is fixed...

[upsettingshorts]

nekhbet wrote...

Though I do want to play the templar ending, once Anders is fixed...

I wish they had taken that out on purpose. Or, if they leave it in, make it so that after doing it Anders is the most hated person in Thedas.

[thebrute7]

I tried to play the templars side, I still haven't finished it though. It hurts me everytime I turn mages over to the templars so it will probably take me all year to finish the playthrough.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I side with the Templars for one reason: It is more likely to contain the conflict to Kirkwall - that's the point of the Rite in the first place, containment - than joining in on full scale mage rebellion. Obviously it doesn't contain the conflict, but my character in the moment they're making that choice doesn't know that. I think if your character believes in peace and reform, the Templars are a very reasonable choice given the circumstances.

Choosing the mages is choosing war. Perhaps a righteous war, but it is endorsing Anders' blowing up of the status quo, no question.

From a consequentialist/utilitarian perspective, I absolutely agree.  The trouble is that in Thedas, making choices on consequentialist grounds is as likely to backfire as anything else--and often does with devastating results.

[thebrute7]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

nekhbet wrote...

Though I do want to play the templar ending, once Anders is fixed...

I wish they had taken that out on purpose. Or, if they leave it in, make it so that after doing it Anders is the most hated person in Thedas.

I would always assume that if you did the templar ending Anders would be executed anyway.  It wouldn't really make sense otherwise.

[ekurian]

Hmm, you guys know the Bet Served Cold quest, in which everyone goes all 'RAWR U WURKIN WIV MEREDIF', even if you openly defended the mages at the begining of the Act?

Well, I just started playing it and went to the meeting in Hightown, and rather than the templars going 'OMG MEREDIF SUPPORTA KILL'
They said 'We know you're spying for Orsino!'

Has the patch fixed this? o_o

Either way, it still doesn't make any sense.

[upsettingshorts]

thebrute7 wrote...

I tried to play the templars side, I still haven't finished it though. It hurts me everytime I turn mages over to the templars so it will probably take me all year to finish the playthrough.

Don't go full Templar.  Be reluctantly Templar in the end!

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

From a consequentialist/utilitarian perspective, I absolutely agree.  The trouble is that in Thedas, making choices on consequentialist grounds is as likely to backfire as anything else--and often does with devastating results.

Is your character genre savvy?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 avril 2011 - 07:27 .

[nyxocity]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I'd just like to say having something feel real has more to do with good writing than any genre or sub-genre. With good enough writing, you can have a world with dragons, elves, and magic feel more "real" than some works of fiction set in the real world.

QFT. 

I think calling this game low-fantasy is a way to sum its shades of gray (which is more like the world we live in), where high-fantasy is more black and white. But good writing can make anything feel "real".