57020 réponses à ce sujet

[ipgd]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Or, if they leave it in, make it so that after doing it Anders is the most hated person in Thedas.

I imagine he's going to end up that way no matter what.

[upsettingshorts]

ipgd wrote...

I imagine he's going to end up that way no matter what.

Yes and no. 

But Rival Pro-Templar ending?  Good lord yes.

[Poetics124]

highcastle wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

I agree with you.  In a High Fantasy setting where good and evil are obviously and clearly defined, playing the "evil" side is acceptable because we all know and agree that in the real world it would be wrong and we are just having fun.  But in a setting like this where everything is grey our emotions and opinions seem much stronger don't they?

I personally think it was brilliant, but I likea good debate if people can manage to ignore their emotional attachment to one side or the other for a while.

Interesting. I never thought about it from this perspective. We find it easier to play "black" then we do "gray." And in DA2 where the choices are gray versus gray as opposed to black-and-white, we draw harsher lines in the sand in an effort to champion our cause as the one, true, morally superior one. Very interesting.

However, knowing this doesn't change the fact I still can't side with the templars in the end. I don't even think all templars are evil. I just have a hard time justifying Meredith's call for the Right of Annulment given the Circle had zero responsibility for what happened to the Chantry (the supposed impetus for the Right in this case). I can make a better case for killing Anders (who I adore) than I can for this outcome. 

I also think that the difference, at least for me, is that when I side with the mages I am taking on templars who are trained soldiers who know the risks of their jobs verses the templar ending where I'm killing young and old mages alike.  I know that you do have a choice to let some mages go, but it is still tougher for me.  Add in the fact that it seems like most of the sane templars were still alive even at the end of a mage run and I think siding with the mages has the happier ending that the reverse.   But that just might be more of a perspective thing for me.

[nekhbet]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

nekhbet wrote...

Though I do want to play the templar ending, once Anders is fixed...

I wish they had taken that out on purpose. Or, if they leave it in, make it so that after doing it Anders is the most hated person in Thedas.

I want to make him suffer on that PT. No executions, no mercy killings, no suicide permitted, because Hawke selfishly loves the man still. I want to see him utterly destroyed.

And that's my step into High Fantasy, my Dark Side PT. Because I can.

Modifié par nekhbet, 18 avril 2011 - 07:34 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

From a consequentialist/utilitarian perspective, I absolutely agree.  The trouble is that in Thedas, making choices on consequentialist grounds is as likely to backfire as anything else--and often does with devastating results.

Is your character genre savvy?

Sometimes   Mostly because I find it hard playing painfully Genre Blind or Wrong Genre Savvy characters like Seb and Cailan.

But playing a genre savvy character and having the character make choices on consequentialist grounds are not synonomyous.  For example, the templars: a consequentialist character could easily justify siding consistently with the templars since mages only constitute a small proportion of the population, and it's better to protect the whole from the few.  (And yes, I know I'm grossly oversimplifying.)  A Genre Savvy character like Varric would think twice about this kind of decision; tyrants tend to be their own undoing, after all, and "for the greater good" rarely works out the way you'd like in low fantasy.

[Muzzlepuffs]

thebrute7 wrote...

I tried to play the templars side, I still haven't finished it though. It hurts me everytime I turn mages over to the templars so it will probably take me all year to finish the playthrough.

I was playing for the Templar achievement, only to realize after I got to the end, I should have turned Feynriel over to the Circle and hadn't done that. So, I get to go through it all again sometime because I'm such an achievement ****, and after my current playthrough, it's the only one I'm missing. Hopefully, the character I make will be more willing to side with Templars. I felt terrible about ruining Petra Hawke to try to get the Templar achievement.

It's hard. I was never this sympathetic to mages, but after DA2, I have SUCH a hard time siding against them. I feel wrong.

[YamiSnuffles]

ekurian wrote...

Hmm, you guys know the Bet Served Cold quest, in which everyone goes all 'RAWR U WURKIN WIV MEREDIF', even if you openly defended the mages at the begining of the Act?

Well, I just started playing it and went to the meeting in Hightown, and rather than the templars going 'OMG MEREDIF SUPPORTA KILL'
They said 'We know you're spying for Orsino!'

Has the patch fixed this? o_o

Either way, it still doesn't make any sense.

Wah... I would also like to know the answer to this. It still doesn't make much sense, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than people think for absolutely no reaosn that I'm siding with Meredith. Good to know that the thing I thought was a glitch maybe is a glitch.

[Poetics124]

ipgd wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Or, if they leave it in, make it so that after doing it Anders is the most hated person in Thedas.

I imagine he's going to end up that way no matter what.

Agreed.   They way Cassandra spits out his name pretty much tells the tale.  Hawke is the more famous one because he/she was champion of Kirkwall, but everyone knows that Anders kaboomed the chantry.  But I think most of the tale has Hawke as the lead of a conspiracy to overthrow Meredith with her team when it really was a bunch of coincidences, bad luck, and gusty descisions that made it happen. 

[ekurian]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

ekurian wrote...

Hmm, you guys know the Bet Served Cold quest, in which everyone goes all 'RAWR U WURKIN WIV MEREDIF', even if you openly defended the mages at the begining of the Act?

Well, I just started playing it and went to the meeting in Hightown, and rather than the templars going 'OMG MEREDIF SUPPORTA KILL'
They said 'We know you're spying for Orsino!'

Has the patch fixed this? o_o

Either way, it still doesn't make any sense.

Wah... I would also like to know the answer to this. It still doesn't make much sense, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than people think for absolutely no reaosn that I'm siding with Meredith. Good to know that the thing I thought was a glitch maybe is a glitch.

I'm going to play a bit more and see if Thrask and Grace say different things... even though we all know how it ends ><

Back soon with info

[Muzzlepuffs]

ekurian wrote...

Hmm, you guys know the Bet Served Cold quest, in which everyone goes all 'RAWR U WURKIN WIV MEREDIF', even if you openly defended the mages at the begining of the Act?

Well, I just started playing it and went to the meeting in Hightown, and rather than the templars going 'OMG MEREDIF SUPPORTA KILL'
They said 'We know you're spying for Orsino!'

Has the patch fixed this? o_o

Either way, it still doesn't make any sense.

Ooh, interesting. I'm coming up on that part soon. I never did understand why they all thought I was working for Meredith when I was always so outspoken for the mages.

[nekhbet]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

ekurian wrote...

Hmm, you guys know the Bet Served Cold quest, in which everyone goes all 'RAWR U WURKIN WIV MEREDIF', even if you openly defended the mages at the begining of the Act?

Well, I just started playing it and went to the meeting in Hightown, and rather than the templars going 'OMG MEREDIF SUPPORTA KILL'
They said 'We know you're spying for Orsino!'

Has the patch fixed this? o_o

Either way, it still doesn't make any sense.

Wah... I would also like to know the answer to this. It still doesn't make much sense, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than people think for absolutely no reaosn that I'm siding with Meredith. Good to know that the thing I thought was a glitch maybe is a glitch.

This actually makes a whole lotta sense. They're all being paranoid about each other and Hawke, because of the tension. It also feels like everybody's already riding towards the "no compromise" sunset, regardless of Anders.

Which is kinda sad if it's so. The guy blows up the Chantry and gets all the blame.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Poetics124 wrote...

They way Cassandra spits out his name pretty much tells the tale.  Hawke is the more famous one because he/she was champion of Kirkwall, but everyone knows that Anders kaboomed the chantry.  But I think most of the tale has Hawke as the lead of a conspiracy to overthrow Meredith with her team when it really was a bunch of coincidences, bad luck, and gusty descisions that made it happen. 

I remember hearing the hate in Cassandra's voice when she talks about Anders and thinking, "Oh, no."  And then merrily proceeding with the Anders romance because I'm a damned fool.

I really liked seeing Cassandra's opinion of Hawke and his/her actions evolve over the course of the narration.

[Poetics124]

nekhbet wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

ekurian wrote...

Hmm, you guys know the Bet Served Cold quest, in which everyone goes all 'RAWR U WURKIN WIV MEREDIF', even if you openly defended the mages at the begining of the Act?

Well, I just started playing it and went to the meeting in Hightown, and rather than the templars going 'OMG MEREDIF SUPPORTA KILL'
They said 'We know you're spying for Orsino!'

Has the patch fixed this? o_o

Either way, it still doesn't make any sense.

Wah... I would also like to know the answer to this. It still doesn't make much sense, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than people think for absolutely no reaosn that I'm siding with Meredith. Good to know that the thing I thought was a glitch maybe is a glitch.

This actually makes a whole lotta sense. They're all being paranoid about each other and Hawke, because of the tension. It also feels like everybody's already riding towards the "no compromise" sunset, regardless of Anders.

Which is kinda sad if it's so. The guy blows up the Chantry and gets all the blame.

Well I think that one of the underlying theme of DA is fate verse choice.   In this case, I think Kirkwall was going to go down in choas anyway you look at it and there is nothing Hawke can really do in the face of that choice but kinda pick a side. 

[YamiSnuffles]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I really liked seeing Cassandra's opinion of Hawke and his/her actions evolve over the course of the narration.

I loved when Cassandra totally gets a crush on Hawke if Hawke has a duel with the Arishok. She gets such a dreamy look on her face, it makes me giggle.

[ekurian]

Back with an update: It seems that Thrask and Grace are still in the 'WHY U WURK WIV MEREDIF' boat. Also, Carver was in Tempar armour, even though I had him Warden'd.

Did they swap his clothes or something?

Implications unpleasant.

[Muzzlepuffs]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I really liked seeing Cassandra's opinion of Hawke and his/her actions evolve over the course of the narration.

I loved when Cassandra totally gets a crush on Hawke if Hawke has a duel with the Arishok. She gets such a dreamy look on her face, it makes me giggle.

"It's so romantic! *ladyboner* "

[Poetics124]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Poetics124 wrote...

They way Cassandra spits out his name pretty much tells the tale.  Hawke is the more famous one because he/she was champion of Kirkwall, but everyone knows that Anders kaboomed the chantry.  But I think most of the tale has Hawke as the lead of a conspiracy to overthrow Meredith with her team when it really was a bunch of coincidences, bad luck, and gusty descisions that made it happen. 

I remember hearing the hate in Cassandra's voice when she talks about Anders and thinking, "Oh, no."  And then merrily proceeding with the Anders romance because I'm a damned fool.

I really liked seeing Cassandra's opinion of Hawke and his/her actions evolve over the course of the narration.

I really liked how the more Cassandra heard the more she thought of Hawke as a hero.  But then again Varric is a good storyteller.

And Varric talking about introducing them had a weird feel to it.  It's like Varric doesn't hate Anders necessarily for what he did, but a part of him knows that if he hadn't introduced Anders to Hawke a lot of the stuff that happened wouldn't have went down.

It was like Hawke+Anders equaled explosion whether you romanced him or not. 

[shiba5]

Muzzlepuffs wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I really liked seeing Cassandra's opinion of Hawke and his/her actions evolve over the course of the narration.

I loved when Cassandra totally gets a crush on Hawke if Hawke has a duel with the Arishok. She gets such a dreamy look on her face, it makes me giggle.

"It's so romantic! *ladyboner* "

I wonder if she still thinks that way about my Hawke who shamelessly ran off with Anders - to have wild sex in a cave.

[nyxocity]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I really liked seeing Cassandra's opinion of Hawke and his/her actions evolve over the course of the narration.

I loved when Cassandra totally gets a crush on Hawke if Hawke has a duel with the Arishok. She gets such a dreamy look on her face, it makes me giggle.

I only did that on my first PT (most ridiculous battle I've ever fought in my life), and I wasn't paying much attention to Cassandra's expression beyond her surprise. I need to see that clip again. And it's not going to happen on my mage PT, alas.

[YamiSnuffles]

shiba5 wrote...

Muzzlepuffs wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I really liked seeing Cassandra's opinion of Hawke and his/her actions evolve over the course of the narration.

I loved when Cassandra totally gets a crush on Hawke if Hawke has a duel with the Arishok. She gets such a dreamy look on her face, it makes me giggle.

"It's so romantic! *ladyboner* "

I wonder if she still thinks that way about my Hawke who shamelessly ran off with Anders - to have wild sex in a cave.

She still seems to think that Hawke is a giant hero by the end of the game, even if you spare Anders and run off with him. I'd bet Cassandra totally wants to get in on that action.

[nyxocity]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

shiba5 wrote...

Muzzlepuffs wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I really liked seeing Cassandra's opinion of Hawke and his/her actions evolve over the course of the narration.

I loved when Cassandra totally gets a crush on Hawke if Hawke has a duel with the Arishok. She gets such a dreamy look on her face, it makes me giggle.

"It's so romantic! *ladyboner* "

I wonder if she still thinks that way about my Hawke who shamelessly ran off with Anders - to have wild sex in a cave.

She still seems to think that Hawke is a giant hero by the end of the game, even if you spare Anders and run off with him. I'd bet Cassandra totally wants to get in on that action.

Hero-worship banging Hawke and hate banging Anders... can you even do that at the same time?

[shiba5]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

shiba5 wrote...

Muzzlepuffs wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I really liked seeing Cassandra's opinion of Hawke and his/her actions evolve over the course of the narration.

I loved when Cassandra totally gets a crush on Hawke if Hawke has a duel with the Arishok. She gets such a dreamy look on her face, it makes me giggle.

"It's so romantic! *ladyboner* "

I wonder if she still thinks that way about my Hawke who shamelessly ran off with Anders - to have wild sex in a cave.

She still seems to think that Hawke is a giant hero by the end of the game, even if you spare Anders and run off with him. I'd bet Cassandra totally wants to get in on that action.

I'm sure Anders would be uh... up for that too.

[leggywillow]

thenyxie wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...
I loved when Cassandra totally gets a crush on Hawke if Hawke has a duel with the Arishok. She gets such a dreamy look on her face, it makes me giggle.

I only did that on my first PT (most ridiculous battle I've ever fought in my life), and I wasn't paying much attention to Cassandra's expression beyond her surprise. I need to see that clip again. And it's not going to happen on my mage PT, alas.

Seriously, I was expecting Cassandra to be more like "Wow, how very not impressive.  The Arishok chased the Champion in circles for an hour while she squealed and occasionally stabbed at him with a dagger, while her mabari chewed on his butt?"

[Muzzlepuffs]

shiba5 wrote...

I wonder if she still thinks that way about my Hawke who shamelessly ran off with Anders - to have wild sex in a cave.

She keeps that thought in her ****** bank?

[Dunizel]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Kolotosa wrote...

When you look at the banter in Awakening, you could argue Nathaniel has as hand in what happens to Justice and Anders as well. Nate plants the idea in Justice's head that it might be acceptable, and not demonic, to inhabit a willing, living host, for the good of a common goal.

Good point, yes. Problem there is that Nate isn't exactly a big authority on the matter. Has he ever met a demon or an abomination before that? But I can see how Justice, who's already starting to feel some envy for human things from his access to Kristoff's memories, might be tempted to accept that argument as valid, alas.
.

Justice in my opinion by the end of Awakening is already changed and has some strange ideas in his mind. I went to read some of his banters, and I found two with Velanna that are really interesting.

Velanna: What will happen to you once Kristoff's body has fully decayed?
Justice: I do not know. Perhaps I will be drawn back to the Fade?
Velanna: Or remain here, bound to the tiny motes of dust that once were Kristoff.
Justice: Do you think that's possible?
Velanna: I know less about this than you. How securely is your spirit bound to this body? Can you leave it?
Justice: I could, if I chose to.
Velanna: Do you want to leave it?
Justice: I... do not know anymore.

--
Velanna: It seems you actually like this world.
Justice: I do. I have had experiences I cannot even begin to explain.
Velanna: A pity that you'll soon fall apart.
Justice: I could find and inhabit another corpse. A female body might offer a different perspective, wouldn't you think?
Velanna: If I die in your presence, you stay away from my body, you hear me?
Justice: Your objection is noted.


He is even capable of jokes at this point, which really didn't seem in character at the start. Sometimes I wonder if it wasn't truly Justice's will that persuaded Anders to accept. Of course aided by the fact that Anders' was a bit easygoing on the matter and trusted him as a friend. But I wonder, really...