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[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't see the blowing up the Chantry as ambiguous at all honestly. 

Anders might believe he had good reasons for doing it but the action itself is pretty clear.  

That might just be me though. It's pretty clear cut. He blew up the Chantry to give someone insane a free pass to start a massacre on the *hopes* that it would provoke a war. 

Maybe if Hawke's friends with Anders one might get the sense he expected Hawke to help with the mages but that would only get Hawke in danger as well. He was also expecting to be killed so he can't even help with his so called resistance. Just expects to be lauded as a martyr for mage freedom. 
I can't see that action in a good light. Heck the more I think about it the uglier it gets and the angrier I get at Anders. 

That said it is just my interpretation so...*shrugs*

The crux of it comes down to Consequentialism. If you reject that philosphy there's obviously no argument for you.

[Some Geth]

ipgd wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I don't think there's anyone who denies Anders did a ****ty thing.

It was reprehensible, sure, but I understand him, and it makes him a more interesting character. I'm not sure why anyone needs to justify his actions to like him as a character.

Oh I have seen people try and boy they are stupid.

What I understand even less is why people feel the need to insult others for daring to hold different opinions.

Some opinions are"good"and some are"not'like you don't even what to know what people have called me for the way I"look"but hey why should I hate them and their opinions oh wait they are jerks and are stupid.:innocent:

Leave the strawmen at home, kids. Disliking someone for being a dick to you and insulting someone for having an opinion about the actions of a fictional video game character are not the same thing, especially when it's one as steeped in moral ambiguity as the destruction of the chantry was. It certainly wouldn't be the first time history justifies an act that would by any standard be considered abhorrent at the time it occurred, and it's definitely something that can be legitimately debated without being "stupid".

I did not say that they are the same thing look at how I said "like you don't even want to know what people have called me" I was talking about opinons not Anders with that and sure it can be legitimately debated but I have not see anyone do it as such.

And yes history can justify anything(sort of)but that's if who tells it saw it as "good" and last thing if I say something is stupid it more or less is me being d!ck/don't want to go into the deep and heavy stuff.

Modifié par Some Geth, 19 avril 2011 - 03:01 .

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...
The crux of it comes down to Consequentialism. If you reject that philosphy there's obviously no argument for you.

Guess not. Especially not when the consequences for his actions are ones he doesn't have to pay (and indeed counted on not paying.) 

Ugh. 

Only reason it ever got that far was because no one was doing anything to stop it. Hawke included. At least Anders sees sense in the rivalry ending. 

Just one more month...

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 02:59 .

[Purposeof-Flight]

Please tell me this thread has slowed down because Meredanders is going on somewhere.
>

Oh never mind.
It sped back up.

Modifié par Purposeof-Flight, 19 avril 2011 - 02:57 .

[TripLight]

@Purpose, Does the Kinkmeme count?

[Purposeof-Flight]

TripLight wrote...

@Purpose, Does the Kinkmeme count?

Is THAT where all you guys are?
Huh.
I'm going to have to figure out how to navigate that thing.
It's like Twitter...sucking all my friends in, and I'm the only one in the background going, "WTF AM I DOING?"

[TripLight]

Tags are your friend, remember this, lol.

[thebrute7]

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...
The crux of it comes down to Consequentialism. If you reject that philosphy there's obviously no argument for you.

Guess not. Especially not when the consequences for his actions are ones he doesn't have to pay (and indeed counted on not paying.) 

Ugh. 

Only reason it ever got that far was because no one was doing anything to stop it. Hawke included. At least he sees sense in the rivalry ending. 

Just one more month...

I didn't get the feeling he was just trying to be a martyr.  I thought his whole "expecting to die" bit was Justice.

See, Justice required an action to force action on everyone else so they would stop ignoring the injustice of the mage's situation and come down on one siode or the other.  However, the action that Justice decided upon, being inherently 'unjust' itself, required justice as well.  So Anders expects to die, not as a martyr, but rather because the victims of his attack on the chantry also deserve justice.

That's what I got anyway...  of course the martyrdom thing might be it too.  it's a good explanation I must admit.

[YamiSnuffles]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Please tell me this thread has slowed down because Meredanders is going on somewhere.
>

Oh never mind.
It sped back up.

I should be asleep. Does that count as a good reason not to post?

Honestly, sleepy me cannot process things well enough to jump into debates about terrorism, hate, and all that stuff. If we were talking about festooning, kittens, and rainbows perhaps I would contribute.

For now I just have half formed thoughts about Anders and then hit F5 instead of posting anything.

[Purposeof-Flight]

Uh, has anybody defeated the Arishok as an archer here?
I'm rather nervous about the upcoming battle. >_>

[ipgd]

Some Geth wrote...
 sure it can be legitimately debated but I have not see anyone do it as such.

It's been discussed at length in this thread. I suspect you won't find much riveting debate elsewhere in these forums due to the fact 99% of the threads about Anders seem to be concerned with circlejerking over killing him.

[Purposeof-Flight]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Please tell me this thread has slowed down because Meredanders is going on somewhere.
>

Oh never mind.
It sped back up.

I should be asleep. Does that count as a good reason not to post?

Honestly, sleepy me cannot process things well enough to jump into debates about terrorism, hate, and all that stuff. If we were talking about festooning, kittens, and rainbows perhaps I would contribute.

For now I just have half formed thoughts about Anders and then hit F5 instead of posting anything.

Same here, I'm constantly sleepy nowadays, so I just step out of the passionate intelligent arguments that require thought, and step back in when things get festooney.

[phantomdragoness]

thebrute7 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...
The crux of it comes down to Consequentialism. If you reject that philosphy there's obviously no argument for you.

Guess not. Especially not when the consequences for his actions are ones he doesn't have to pay (and indeed counted on not paying.) 

Ugh. 

Only reason it ever got that far was because no one was doing anything to stop it. Hawke included. At least he sees sense in the rivalry ending. 

Just one more month...

I didn't get the feeling he was just trying to be a martyr.  I thought his whole "expecting to die" bit was Justice.

See, Justice required an action to force action on everyone else so they would stop ignoring the injustice of the mage's situation and come down on one siode or the other.  However, the action that Justice decided upon, being inherently 'unjust' itself, required justice as well.  So Anders expects to die, not as a martyr, but rather because the victims of his attack on the chantry also deserve justice.

That's what I got anyway...  of course the martyrdom thing might be it too.  it's a good explanation I must admit.

I agree. I am sure if you let Anders live, Justice would be absolutely dumbfounded and confused. I'm surprised he didn't pop out of Anders and scold me. lol

[Some Geth]

ipgd wrote...

Some Geth wrote...
 sure it can be legitimately debated but I have not see anyone do it as such.

It's been discussed at length in this thread. I suspect you won't find much riveting debate elsewhere in these forums due to the fact 99% of the threads about Anders seem to be concerned with circlejerking over killing him.

Or fangirling about him and I am not just talking about the forums here.

[CatOfEvilGenius]

thebrute7 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...
The crux of it comes down to Consequentialism. If you reject that philosphy there's obviously no argument for you.

Guess not. Especially not when the consequences for his actions are ones he doesn't have to pay (and indeed counted on not paying.) 

Ugh. 

Only reason it ever got that far was because no one was doing anything to stop it. Hawke included. At least he sees sense in the rivalry ending. 

Just one more month...

I didn't get the feeling he was just trying to be a martyr.  I thought his whole "expecting to die" bit was Justice.

See, Justice required an action to force action on everyone else so they would stop ignoring the injustice of the mage's situation and come down on one siode or the other.  However, the action that Justice decided upon, being inherently 'unjust' itself, required justice as well.  So Anders expects to die, not as a martyr, but rather because the victims of his attack on the chantry also deserve justice.

That's what I got anyway...  of course the martyrdom thing might be it too.  it's a good explanation I must admit

If I recall, Anders tells you that his victims require justice, and that he will be a martyr BUT I don't recall if he says both in the same playthrough.  If you romance him, he says something about being happy for a little while before dying, doesn't talk about being a martyr.  If you don't romance him, he says he dies a martyr.  If you rival him, I think he talks about being an inspiration to future revolutionary mages, but may not say martyr.  I think he only talks about justice for his victims if you ask him about it?  How Anders feels about his death (or about being spared) must have qutie a bit to do with Hawke's influence on him.

[thebrute7]

ipgd wrote...

Some Geth wrote...
 sure it can be legitimately debated but I have not see anyone do it as such.

It's been discussed at length in this thread. I suspect you won't find much riveting debate elsewhere in these forums due to the fact 99% of the threads about Anders seem to be concerned with circlejerking over killing him.

It's sadly true... like that guy a a couple hundred pages back who went /angryrant on me for saying that I didn't feel Anders' actions were terrorism before I had even posted my thoughts?  Sometimes they invade our happiness here too

Then we go back to this  

[Some Geth]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Please tell me this thread has slowed down because Meredanders is going on somewhere.
>

Oh never mind.
It sped back up.

I should be asleep. Does that count as a good reason not to post?

Honestly, sleepy me cannot process things well enough to jump into debates about terrorism, hate, and all that stuff. If we were talking about festooning, kittens, and rainbows perhaps I would contribute.

For now I just have half formed thoughts about Anders and then hit F5 instead of posting anything.

I have not had any good sleep in weeks but I go on.

[ipgd]

Some Geth wrote...

Or fangirling about him and I am not just talking about the forums here.

I'm surprised you can find anyone outside of BSN that will even admit to liking anything about DA2, what with the ****** maelstrom

[Ryzaki]

thebrute7 wrote...
I didn't get the feeling he was just trying to be a martyr.  I thought his whole "expecting to die" bit was Justice.

See, Justice required an action to force action on everyone else so they would stop ignoring the injustice of the mage's situation and come down on one siode or the other.  However, the action that Justice decided upon, being inherently 'unjust' itself, required justice as well.  So Anders expects to die, not as a martyr, but rather because the victims of his attack on the chantry also deserve justice.

That's what I got anyway...  of course the martyrdom thing might be it too.  it's a good explanation I must admit.

If you spare him he says something along the lines of "the sooner I die the sooner I'll be a symbol." or some crap. It was irkesome and just made me want toturn him tranquil.

Justice did expect to die though but Anders planned on using that to his advantage. The best bit is no one really gives 2 squats about him in the end.

Exploding the chantry to me wasn't exposing the injustice of the Circle. Heck if anything one would think it would cause more people to *support* the Circle since it was an apostate who did it. What Anders was banking on was Meredith's insanity being left unchecked. Her calling the rite for something Anders did was unjust. However thanks to Anders killing the one person who could stop her it occured. Worst part to me is why does Anders not realize that forcing mages into a war that he started isn't justice. He does realize it on the rivalry path but his blindess on the friendship path irks me.

That said this is just my interpetation so...eh.

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...
If I recall, Anders tells you that
his victims require justice, and that he will be a martyr BUT I don't
recall if he says both in the same playthrough.  If you romance him, he
says something about being happy for a little while before dying,
doesn't talk about being a martyr.  If you don't romance him, he says he
dies a martyr.  If you rival him, I think he talks about being an
inspiration to future revolutionary mages, but may not say martyr. 
I think he only talks about justice for his victims if you ask him about
it?  How Anders feels about his death (or about being spared) must have
qutie a bit to do with Hawke's influence on him.

Yeah
that was the issue. He talked about being a martyr on my non romance
playthrough and that's where a lot of the disgust comes from. And
frankly I don't blame them. Its a disgusting act and he's a disgusting person for trying to make himself out to be a hero in that situation.

Though thanks for the insight.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 03:15 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Same here, I'm constantly sleepy nowadays, so I just step out of the passionate intelligent arguments that require thought, and step back in when things get festooney.

It's a shame really. I feel obligated to contribute to debates but at the moment I think the best I could offer is, "ME NO AGREE. ROAR." Yet I can't sleep. Thus I keep reading and hoping that somone posts the things I want to say, but in words that actually mean something.

[CatOfEvilGenius]

ipgd wrote...

Some Geth wrote...
 sure it can be legitimately debated but I have not see anyone do it as such.

It's been discussed at length in this thread. I suspect you won't find much riveting debate elsewhere in these forums due to the fact 99% of the threads about Anders seem to be concerned with circlejerking over killing him.

@SomeGeth - Many folks in this thread have repeated themselves over and over when this topic periodically comes up.  I know I have, and I'm very much a newcomer.  So I refrain from it now so as not to bore the old hands with the umpteenth reiteration of my points.  Might chime in if enough new folks started it up again, since the old hands did me that courtesy.

[Some Geth]

ipgd wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Or fangirling about him and I am not just talking about the forums here.

I'm surprised you can find anyone outside of BSN that will even admit to liking anything about DA2, what with the ****** maelstrom

I have seen forums that like it and hate it and both!

[bleetman]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Uh, has anybody defeated the Arishok as an archer here?
I'm rather nervous about the upcoming battle. >_>

He's stun resistant and runs at the same speed as you. It's a colossal chore as an archer.

[Ryzaki]

bleetman wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Uh, has anybody defeated the Arishok as an archer here?
I'm rather nervous about the upcoming battle. >_>

He's stun resistant and runs at the same speed as you. It's a colossal chore as an archer.

I saw this hilarious youtube that was about 20 minutes long. And the guy cut parts out.

[TripLight]

bleetman wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Uh, has anybody defeated the Arishok as an archer here?
I'm rather nervous about the upcoming battle. >_>

He's stun resistant and runs at the same speed as you. It's a colossal chore as an archer.

Well, crap. So potions, Dog, and more potions then? *just made an archer*