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[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...
"Abomination" can really easily be turned into something like "AND WHEN THE MAKER RETURNED TO THEDAS HE TOOK ANDERS AS HIS MORTAL HOST". Never underestimate the power of spin.

That's all well and good except the only one who seems to effected postively by the power of spin seems to be Hawke (and Varric). Sure they could try to BS that Anders was oh so oppressed and...what the maker decided to blow up his building and one of his devoted followers? What kind of sense does that make? Why kill a mere Grand Cleric? Why not kill the Divine if it was his will? Even better why use a mere apostate in Kirkwall instead of at the heart of the Chantry (Orlais)? Spin works best when it has a solid foundation and a good reputation to start with (like the champion of Kirkwall). Blowing up a Chantry is obscenely difficult to turn into good spin. And why bother when you have much better spin material that you don't have to blantantly lie about? (Not to mention there are people who know what actually happened.) So their spin is only going to get the other side (You know those commoners they actually need on their side) angry because they're using a terrorist who caused civilian casualities and blew up a house of worship and pretending he's some kind of hero. 

Dropping the Warden makes perfect sense from a meta perspective (i.e. having nothing to do with what the players want or think should have happened) for countless reasons the developers have gone over at length. Completely ignoring an invariable plot thread that appears to have been perfectly propped up to follow through to this very conclusion doesn't. It's not like the Dark Ritual where they'll never be able to touch it again in any detail without retconning half the world away; no matter what your decision is regarding Anders is, he can become or be used as a symbol of the revolution. It's been so obviously engineered in this way that I'll be extremely surprised if it doesn't happen, unless they are deliberately setting up expectations to be subverted and/or deconstructed later.

Actually that's just what they did with Hawke. Especially given as they flat out tell you his/her name is being used as the rallying cry by one side or the other. (or both for different reasons). He/she is the one they will listen to enough to lay down their arms. He/she is the one Cassandra is seeking, he/she is the one who mysteriously vanished right as the war was boiling.

And actually it him becoming used as a symbol does affect what Hawke did. Why would they use the apostate who blows up the Chantry over the apostate who stops a brutal injustice from occuring? With revolutions you want as good an image as possible. Blowing up a Chantry with a neutral Grand Cleric isn't something you want as the head of your revolution for peaceful coexistance. It's bad PR. Spin can only do so much. 

I don't see i being engineered for him to be a rallying cry. I see it as that just showing how deluded he's become. That he thinks his terrorism will be seen as a good thing. (Let's not forgot on the Rivalry path he's "OMG NOOO!" at his actions. How on earth is he to be a symbol in that situation?) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 05:10 .

[ipgd]

Kawamura wrote...

ipgd wrote...

It's been so obviously engineered in this way that I'll be extremely surprised if it doesn't happen, unless they are deliberately setting up expectations to be subverted and/or deconstructed later.

"Here, Anders' fans. I have a special note for you:

**** you.

Gaider"

Ohh, I like it when he hurts me

[Kawamura]

ipgd wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

ipgd wrote...

It's been so obviously engineered in this way that I'll be extremely surprised if it doesn't happen, unless they are deliberately setting up expectations to be subverted and/or deconstructed later.

"Here, Anders' fans. I have a special note for you:

**** you.

Gaider"

Ohh, I like it when he hurts me

Would you like a whip for self-flaggellation?

I think it's great to think that, no matter what, Anders is probably dead. Either you killed him at the Chantry or he'll get totally cannabalized by Justice. Not because Justice/Vengeance is bad. I just think that's what he can't avoid doing, like a cancer.

That's it! I'm not romancing anyone else but Anders in my DA2 play throughs.

[thebrute7]

Wow, I leave and all of a sudden the conversation gets interesting... I would join but I am busy reading, Love ya'll.

[CatOfEvilGenius]

ipgd wrote...

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

* goes to google consequentialism *
...
* comes back *

I learned a new word, yay!  I'd say someone could agree with consequentialism, but argue that Anders had other, better options. 

edit: And unlike shameboner and frusterbate, I can impress people with this at work!

"Better" is yet to be seen. If his actions truly do lead to the liberation of mages, it's going to be difficult to look back on 1000 years of oppression and say "this could have been avoided".

There are in-game examples already; recall the blood mage in the Circle tower who says something like "Andraste didn't write the Imperium a strongly worded letter." We can speculate as to whether or not she could have changed the world with a strongly worded letter, but she didn't, and her followers have no trouble justifying the bloodshed that doubtlessly occurred for her to accomplish what she did. Anders will be no different.

Of course, if his actions don't lead to anything, he'll just be Hitler.

The beneficiaries in a conflict usually have little trouble justifying things.  Especially true if the person who's actions they're justifying founded a religion they subscribe to.  Objective examination of history and condemnation of any wrongdoing usually come much, much later.  I think you just said that, so not arguing with you there.

What I disagree with is the part I  bolded.  Who's looking back a 1000 years from now?  A free mage or a non-mage?  Does the person looking back benefit from the war?

Anders started a war that affects everyone, with the goal of liberating a minority.  In the short term, the majority of people, being non-mages, does not benefit from a war.  Rather, the majority is greatly harmed.  My opinion is mages have less public support than the Chantry, and should they
win, they'll be liberated, but resented and feared by the non-mage majority.  Resentment can be passed down for generations.  So long term, maybe most people don't benefit either, and the mages' situation is better, but hardly ideal.  A campaign to win hearts and minds by helping people, as opposed to a war, could lead not just to the
liberation of mages, but to their integration into and acceptance by
society.  Liberation of mages, with less bloodshed, and benefits for all, not just mages, would be better.

The blood mage who spoke of Andraste followed Uldred.  She hoped to free the mages with a violent uprising.  Uldred and his followers did nothing to help liberate mages.  Side with the mages in Broken Circle, Greagor and Irving keep going as before.  Side with the templars, Cullen takes over and cracks down hard.  A mage!Warden could do much more to help the mages by saving the public from the Blight, getting the king/queen's ear, and advocating for Circle reforms.  Anders had people willing to fight for his freedom because he helped them with his clinic.  I think Joe Shmo is more sympathetic to someone who helps him than to someone who starts a war that devastates his home town or village.

Good night, Anders thread.

* kisses everyone who agrees with her and everyone who doesn't, even if we're supposed to be bippity bopping now rather than kissing *

[Miri1984]

It's all very well to say non-violent change would be better, but when and where is it going to happen? King Alistair is very clear that no matter how he treats apostates in Ferelden, he has no power over the Chantry or the Templars, so what goes on in the Circle is out of his jurisdiction. Orlais is a centre of Chantry power. The circles in Starkhaven and the other Free Cities are all to varying degrees as bad as Kirkwall is (considering there are just as many mages who want to escape from them) and the Divine is willing to call an exalted march on Kirkwall because there's a mage rebellion. Mages who speak out against the Chantry are all apostates, and all criminals, so once they're exposed they get taken to the circle. Families who object to having their children taken away or try to shelter mages from the circle are treated as criminals.

I would really like to know what action can possibly be taken (bar the action that Anders' takes of forcing a way) could improve the lot for mages?

We can talk about gentle reform all we want, but when it gets down to it Thedas is a medieval society with very limited understanding or development of personal freedom. There's little or no sexism, but there's DEFINITELY a class system, and it's pretty obvious the average Thedas peasant couldn't give a hoot about the plight of mages. Leaflets and education and all that really only work if the population is educated enough to embrace it in the first place.

The changes that occurred in Europe in the 18th and 19th Centuries can be in part attributed to the French Revolution, ideas of liberty and equality were born from violence.

And I don't accept that Anders' action did nothing. We don't KNOW what happened afterwards, we don't know if he's been labelled an idiot or a martyr or a hero of the revolution, the game is very careful not to give us any firm information about how he is regarded, save by Cassandra, who is a Seeker of the Chantry, and therefore almost guaranteed to not be a fan.

[Poetics124]

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...
"Abomination" can really easily be turned into something like "AND WHEN THE MAKER RETURNED TO THEDAS HE TOOK ANDERS AS HIS MORTAL HOST". Never underestimate the power of spin.

That's all well and good except the only one who seems to effected postively by the power of spin seems to be Hawke (and Varric). Sure they could try to BS that Anders was oh so oppressed and...what the maker decided to blow up his building and one of his devoted followers? What kind of sense does that make? Why kill a mere Grand Cleric? Why not kill the Divine if it was his will? Even better why use a mere apostate in Kirkwall instead of at the heart of the Chantry (Orlais)? Spin works best when it has a solid foundation and a good reputation to start with (like the champion of Kirkwall). Blowing up a Chantry is obscenely difficult to turn into good spin. And why bother when you have much better spin material that you don't have to blantantly lie about? (Not to mention there are people who know what actually happened.) So their spin is only going to get the other side (You know those commoners they actually need on their side) angry because they're using a terrorist who caused civilian casualities and blew up a house of worship and pretending he's some kind of hero. 

Dropping the Warden makes perfect sense from a meta perspective (i.e. having nothing to do with what the players want or think should have happened) for countless reasons the developers have gone over at length. Completely ignoring an invariable plot thread that appears to have been perfectly propped up to follow through to this very conclusion doesn't. It's not like the Dark Ritual where they'll never be able to touch it again in any detail without retconning half the world away; no matter what your decision is regarding Anders is, he can become or be used as a symbol of the revolution. It's been so obviously engineered in this way that I'll be extremely surprised if it doesn't happen, unless they are deliberately setting up expectations to be subverted and/or deconstructed later.

Actually that's just what they did with Hawke. Especially given as they flat out tell you his/her name is being used as the rallying cry by one side or the other. (or both for different reasons). He/she is the one they will listen to enough to lay down their arms. He/she is the one Cassandra is seeking, he/she is the one who mysteriously vanished right as the war was boiling.

And actually it him becoming used as a symbol does affect what Hawke did. Why would they use the apostate who blows up the Chantry over the apostate who stops a brutal injustice from occuring? With revolutions you want as good an image as possible. Blowing up a Chantry with a neutral Grand Cleric isn't something you want as the head of your revolution for peaceful coexistance. It's bad PR. Spin can only do so much. 

I don't see i being engineered for him to be a rallying cry. I see it as that just showing how deluded he's become. That he thinks his terrorism will be seen as a good thing. (Let's not forgot on the Rivalry path he's "OMG NOOO!" at his actions. How on earth is he to be a symbol in that situation?) 

But I think that Cassandra also thinks that Hawke organized his/her little group to take over Kirkwall and Anders actions were under her orders.  It's why Cassandra reacts with suprise to figuring out that Hawke didn't come into town with all the people that were with her and why Varric had to squash her feeling that there was some type of Grey Warden conspiracy running afoot because of Anders involvement.   Which is why, at the end of Varric's tale, she reassesses her view of Hawke to be someone who should be admired.  The legends were that Hawke was fully in control of what was going on (which is what legends tend to do) when the reality was everything was fubar the whole time. 

Anders is still a big part of the story, but in many minds, he was only under the control of Hawke when he did what he did.  So, in a way, there is a strong hint that people think that Hawke was responsible for the bombing of the Chantry and either defending/defeating the Circle afterwards.  So in the legend Anders becomes supporting of the actions instead of instigating the actions.

[Ryzaki]

Poetics124 wrote..
But I think that Cassandra also thinks that Hawke organized his/her little group to take over Kirkwall and Anders actions were under her orders.  It's why Cassandra reacts with suprise to figuring out that Hawke didn't come into town with all the people that were with her and why Varric had to squash her feeling that there was some type of Grey Warden conspiracy running afoot because of Anders involvement.   Which is why, at the end of Varric's tale, she reassesses her view of Hawke to be someone who should be admired.  The legends were that Hawke was fully in control of what was going on (which is what legends tend to do) when the reality was everything was fubar the whole time. 

 

Which makes no sense when you side with the templars. Why would she think Hawke blew up the Chantry and then sided with the templars? And if anyone truly believed that why not question him while he was sitting in the Vicount's Seat (he was there for a while before going poof). [That said alot of what Cassandra says makes no sense. Like how Bethany becoming a Warden somehow makes Hawke feel guilty for the circle mages or how Carver being a Warden makes perfect sense.] 

Anders is still a big part of the story, but in many minds, he was only under the control of Hawke when he did what he did.  So, in a way, there is a strong hint that people think that Hawke was responsible for the bombing of the Chantry and either defending/defeating the Circle afterwards.  So in the legend Anders becomes supporting of the actions instead of instigating the actions.

Again this seems contradictory (and odd) when one throws this with the Templar ending. It makes some sense with the mage ending and I can see why *Meredith* believed that. She was insane. (And Cullen going along with it made me wanna backhand him) But if they really thought you were responsible why make Hawke vicount? Why not arrest him then and there? Why would a pro-Chantry Hawke support Anders blowing up the Chantry and then kill him and the mages? For kicks and giggles? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 06:09 .

[Miri1984]

The whole Cassandra interrogating Varric about Hawke is supremely unsatisfying, really. I mean it's all very well for her to say "The legend says this" but WHAT THE HELL DOES THE LEGEND SAY? It makes for me now very little sense that they be trying to find Hawke at all. What can one person possibly do to fix a global war??? IF that is indeed what's happening. I mean the possibilities are:

1. They think Hawke can calm down the mages and/or Templars enough to stop the Chantry from imploding (I doubt it)
2. They think Hawke has sway with the Qunari enough to stop them from invading (POSSIBLE)
3. They think Hawke has some influence over the unnamed Darkspawn thing-y that the wardens are investigating during Act II of DA2 (WHY? Hawke's not even a warden!)

The whole thing just makes me want to do THIS to Cassandra:

[phantomdragoness]

Although CatOfEvilGenius does bring up a good point...the phrase stands: "Easier said than done." What action could have possibly been peaceful at the highpoint of tension? Everyone is ready to pull a sword at another's throat, any compromise would have been shot down; angry people do not like to compromise - I applaud Orcino for still trying to make Meredith retract the Annulment, even if it did not work out. As I pointed out before, Meredith was too far gone to consider compromise - even if a part of her regretted it all.

I would LOVE a peaceful compromise. I would absolutely love for Anders to have never felt obligated to do such a terrible thing. I'm sure all of us wish we had a high persuasion meter, said a few convincing things, and everyone went home feeling ashamed and hopeful for a brighter future...but then...it would be Mary Sue. XD

Tis very depressing to think that you can't help everyone - all you can do is try your best, and hope that your actions inspire someone else to do the right thing. Like with Isabela: prove to her that you care - either as a friend or lover - and she will return because of "your damn influence." Hawke's influence is the reason why Cassandra is searching for her/him.

I hope DA3 ends happily, or at least with a good chance of hope.

Modifié par phantomdragoness, 19 avril 2011 - 06:09 .

[Jean]

Again this seems contradictory (and odd) when one throws this with the Templar ending. It makes some sense with the mage ending and I can see why *Meredith* believed that. She was insane. (And Cullen going along with it made me wanna backhand him) But if they really thought you were responsible why make Hawke vicount? Why not arrest him then and there? Why would a pro-Chantry Hawke support Anders blowing up the Chantry and then kill him and the mages? For kicks and giggles?

Who knows what the Book of Hawke has in it.

Whatever is in it seems to be taken as truth until Varric and Cassandra.

Modifié par Batteries, 19 avril 2011 - 06:07 .

[Ryzaki]

Batteries wrote...
Who knows what the Book of Hawke has in it.

Whatever is in it seems to be taken as truth until Varric and Cassandra.

Which again boggles me. 

Does Fereldan have better record keepers or something? Nothing my Warden did got so confused. 

Even with Leliana's tales being in the mix. 

And again why are the mages/templars calling him a hero/oppresser if his/her story is so confused? 

God. BW never should do this frame narrative crap again. It works horribly. 

Edit: I'm bowing out of this discussion at thispoint though. Thanks everyone for the intellictual discussion. Now I'm gonna go rival Anders and poke him. So fun to see him get angry.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 06:16 .

[Poetics124]

Again this seems contradictory (and odd) when one throws this with the Templar ending. It makes some sense with the mage ending and I can see why *Meredith* believed that. She was insane. (And Cullen going along with it made me wanna backhand him) But if they really thought you were responsible why make Hawke vicount? Why not arrest him then and there? Why would a pro-Chantry Hawke support Anders blowing up the Chantry and then kill him and the mages? For kicks and giggles?

Well it could easily been seen as a power play to become viscount in the same way Mother Petrice used terrorism and others as the fall guy to gain more power in the Chantry. Without Meredith, Orsino, or Grand Cleric Elthina around she becomes the most powerful person in Kirkwall. Cullen wouldn't stop her as it would probably be suicidal to turn on the one person who Kirkwall admires. It's the same reason he doesn't arrest her after she basically frees the circle if she sides with the mages.

But as they say, legends don't necessarily have to make sense. Which is probably why Cassandra is asking Varric in the first place.

[Poetics124]

Ryzaki wrote...

Batteries wrote...
Who knows what the Book of Hawke has in it.

Whatever is in it seems to be taken as truth until Varric and Cassandra.

Which again boggles me. 

Does Fereldan have better record keepers or something? Nothing my Warden did got so confused. 

Even with Leliana's tales being in the mix. 

And again why are the mages/templars calling him a hero/oppresser if his/her story is so confused? 

God. BW never should do this frame narrative crap again. It works horribly. 

Edit: I'm bowing out of this discussion at thispoint though. Thanks everyone for the intellictual discussion. Now I'm gonna go rival Anders and poke him. So fun to see him get angry.  

Well, to be fair, there are quite a few people in the Hangman that believe there was never a blight and that the people of Ferelden are just making it up to be more important.   I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't some whoppers about the Warden as well.

[Ryzaki]

Poetics124 wrote...
Well it could easily been seen as a power play to become viscount in the same way Mother Petrice used terrorism and others as the fall guy to gain more power in the Chantry. Without Meredith, Orsino, or Grand Cleric Elthina around she becomes the most powerful person in Kirkwall. Cullen wouldn't stop her as it would probably be suicidal to turn on the one person who Kirkwall admires. It's the same reason he doesn't arrest her after she basically frees the circle if she sides with the mages.

   

Edit: Just to answer this. He doesn't arrest Hawke because that rite wasn't technically justified. The Circle hadn't done anything to deserve its fate. He defended a bunch of innocent mages (and Cullen sees it that way as well) so I can see why he'd let him go if he didn't they'd have to kill him and the mages with him. Hawke does what Culen's duty doesn't allow him to do in that case. 

And power can only protect you so much. Being suspected of the murder of the Grand Cleric isn't one of those things that you'd be granted protection from. 

But as they say, legends don't necessarily have to make sense. Which is probably why Cassandra is asking Varric in the first place.

True. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 06:20 .

[Miri1984]

@Poetics That's a good point. I really REALLY hope Bioware explains some of this in DLC. It's going to be a long, long wait for DA3 otherwise.

[Ryzaki]

Poetics124 wrote...

Well, to be fair, there are quite a few people in the Hangman that believe there was never a blight and that the people of Ferelden are just making it up to be more important.   I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't some whoppers about the Warden as well.

2 People? It was one guy last I checked and there's making wild theories. Those are the types of exaggerations I'd expect. Someone like Cassandra on the other hand with the amount of resources the Chantry would be privy to (including testmonies from the templars at the scene) I'd expect to know better. The mage ending makes sense for things to be more murky because there was complete chaos. The templar ending on the to other hand. Surely there would've been reports to the Grand Cathedral about the circumstances of the Grand Clerics demise. (Complete with questioning of both Hawke, Cullen and every templar that was at the scene). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 06:23 .

[sassperella]

You also have to remember Cassandra is a Chantry Seeker. If Anders's actions did give mages a rallying cry then she's hardly going to be supporting the one that blew up the chantry no matter what, so she's hardly going to mention him in a good light, or as a hero if the mages see him as such.

At the end of the day there was a lot omitted from Varric and Cassandra's conversations as they had to keep the element of surprise and mete out the information, so a lot left open to interpretation. Until the next game or some future dlc that fills in the gaps we can guess all we want but we have to wait for BW to crochet their little blanket of misery, despair and darkness and wrap us up in it before we'll ever know.

[MG800]

Batteries wrote...

Again this seems contradictory (and odd) when one throws this with the Templar ending. It makes some sense with the mage ending and I can see why *Meredith* believed that. She was insane. (And Cullen going along with it made me wanna backhand him) But if they really thought you were responsible why make Hawke vicount? Why not arrest him then and there? Why would a pro-Chantry Hawke support Anders blowing up the Chantry and then kill him and the mages? For kicks and giggles?

Who knows what the Book of Hawke has in it.

Whatever is in it seems to be taken as truth until Varric and Cassandra.

That's a very good point. We'll have to deal with this, and the truth. But if we'll end up as a new protagonist in DA3 we'll never actually know the truth. Anyway, there is a lot of potential in the next story - and this story, since there are more questions then answers-  let's see how they handle it.

[Jean]

But they apparently don't know better.
We also don't know what's happened in those three years after Anders blew up the chantry.

[Ryzaki]

Batteries wrote...

But they apparently don't know better.
We also don't know what's happened in those three years after Anders blew up the chantry.

That is what bugs me. It makes no sense. 

If the GC was killed you'd expect interrogations, interviews, people questioning Hawke and everyone around him. 

While in the mage ending it makes sense to be obscured because Hawke's on the run...in the Templar ending he's sitting in the Vicount's seat for some time. They couldn't be bothered to question him then on the cirumstances of Elthina's demise? It's nonsense. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 06:25 .

[Amondra]

Quick question for anyone who might have romanced Fenris. After the sexy time scene with him and he breaks it off, if you flirt with anyone after that does it end it, or if you do the sexy time with Isabela first stop it? I ask because in arc three Fenris acts like it's over for good. I didn't get the talk after meeting his sister like I did with friendship(at least I think I did >.>) if it matters I am rivalmancing him.

[Ryzaki]

Amondra wrote...

Quick question for anyone who might have romanced Fenris. After the sexy time scene with him and he breaks it off, if you flirt with anyone after that does it end it, or if you do the sexy time with Isabela first stop it? I ask because in arc three Fenris acts like it's over for good. I didn't get the talk after meeting his sister like I did with friendship(at least I think I did >.>) if it matters I am rivalmancing him.

If you sleep with anyone else after he leaves you you can't get back with him. 

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...
"Abomination" can really easily be turned into something like "AND WHEN THE MAKER RETURNED TO THEDAS HE TOOK ANDERS AS HIS MORTAL HOST". Never underestimate the power of spin.

That's all well and good except the only one who seems to effected postively by the power of spin seems to be Hawke (and Varric). Sure they could try to BS that Anders was oh so oppressed and...what the maker decided to blow up his building and one of his devoted followers? What kind of sense does that make? Why kill a mere Grand Cleric? Why not kill the Divine if it was his will? Even better why use a mere apostate in Kirkwall instead of at the heart of the Chantry (Orlais)?

You're trying to argue logic with religion. The same religion whose god apparently decides to wipe out half of Thedas at random intervals because a couple of guys broke into his house.

Anyway, "why" is a specific question that nobody will be able to answer until DA3 actually comes out. I could outline a hundred ways Anders could ultimately be twisted into a revolutionary icon, or name countless real world examples of revolutionaries and bloody revolutionary acts that are whitewashed by history, but we don't have enough (read: none) information to actually argue details. My point is that the writers have no reason to drop it because a) they set it up in such a way that it looks very much like they want to continue the plot thread, Rule of Cool.

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

What I disagree with is the part I  bolded.  Who's looking back a 1000 years from now?  A free mage or a non-mage?  Does the person looking back benefit from the war?

Anders started a war that affects everyone, with the goal of liberating a minority.  In the short term, the majority of people, being non-mages, does not benefit from a war.  Rather, the majority is greatly harmed. 
My opinion is mages have less public support than the Chantry, and should they win, they'll be liberated, but resented and feared by the non-mage majority.  Resentment can be passed down for generations. 
So long term, maybe most people don't benefit either, and the mages' situation is better, but hardly ideal.  A campaign to win hearts and minds by helping people, as opposed to a war, could lead not just to the liberation of mages, but to their integration into and acceptance by society.  Liberation of mages, with less bloodshed, and benefits for all, not just mages, would be better.

I'm not saying that it's objectively better, but that is probably how people are going to look back on it after the dust has settled (because, obviously, the winners write the history books). It's easy to say "what if", but nobody can really know whether peaceful means would have worked and we never will know, because what's done is done. Maybe we still would have freed the slaves eventually if John Brown never lead the Pottawatomie Massacre and the raid on Harpers Ferry and we had just let the Confederacy secede, but we still glorify the abolitionists (who did often employ violent methods and incite armed slave revolts) as having Done the Right Thing because slavery is wrong (read: the north won, so public opinion followed suit, even if the south kicked and screamed the whole way).



That is, provided, this actually works out to Mage Freedom. If the mages are just beaten down, or the Imperium swoops in and gobbles up southern Thedas while it's weakened by Civil War, perceptions will obviously be different.

Modifié par ipgd, 19 avril 2011 - 06:29 .

[Poetics124]

Edit: Just to answer this. He doesn't arrest Hawke because that rite wasn't technically justified. The Circle hadn't done anything to deserve its fate. He defended a bunch of innocent mages (and Cullen sees it that way as well) so I can see why he'd let him go if he didn't they'd have to kill him and the mages with him. Hawke does what Culen's duty doesn't allow him to do in that case.

And power can only protect you so much. Being suspected of the murder of the Grand Cleric isn't one of those things that you'd be granted protection from.

I think that Meredith had the legal right to call for the rite the moment the Grand Cleric went kaboom. She probably wasn't morally right, but on legal grounds I think that she could make that decision if the Grand Cleric is indisposed or killed. Which is why Cullen follows her orders at first and is willing to arrest Hawke when she exits the Circle if Hawke sides with the mages. It's only when Meredith demands that Hawke dies immediately for her crimes when he starts to freak out and tells Meredith that she has no right to do that (and if Hawke is not a mage, Cullen will point out that Hawke's non mage status guarantees him/her the right to a trial).

Before Meredith goes lyrium crazy, Cullen is very willing to arrest Hawke. It's after Meredith dies that he hesitates and then finally let's Hawke go.