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[GailRana]

Batteries wrote...
*snip*
Romanced Anders does leave a Hawke who makes the deal with that demon in Night Terrors quest.

wait, really? Nice! Do any of the others have breaking points?

Top:


Azunaii

Modifié par GailRana, 19 avril 2011 - 07:55 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ninche wrote...
I honestly don't know how to make Sebastian NOT LIKE me. Hell it feels to me like I have ONE converstaion with him right before Leliana shows up and he just ends up giving me +25 friendship twice whatever I do. But to be honest I ignore him totally and have never tried to work on the relationship in any way. Wasting my time on anyone else except Anders is turning out to be impossibly straining. 

There's a guide on the wiki for how to make Seb rivalry you.  Or you could just cheat and use the rivalry bug or the dev console.  Trust me, it's worth it to see him take a few levels in badass.  I don't know that I could ever romance him, but it's worth developing the relationship.

And I agree that trying to romance someone who's not Anders breaks my brain a little.  

[Poetics124]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Poetics124 wrote...

My thinking is the mages see this as a chance to be free and if it comes to war, then it comes to war.   In there mind, there are just some things worth dying for. 

That is Anders' argument as well.  The issue I have with it is the scale of his actions, as well as Hawke's should they support them - is it makes the decision for all other mages in Thedas for them, without their input.

Kirkwall itself is a powderkeg, it will explode one way or another - but the idea that the policies of the rest of Thedas should rest on the fate of this incredibly screwed up - in more ways than one - place, by a few crazy people within it, is a big problem.

Especially considering that the meeting at Cumberland Wynne mentioned in DA:A produced... no significant change in the status quo.  Literally the people who have been put in position by their peers to make decisions on behalf of the mages in Thedas didn't decide to go to war with the Chantry.  Not enough is made of this, I think.

But then all the Circles rebelled as a result of his actions, even Wynne's.     Many leaders make decisions on behalf of their people that their people, if given the choice, wouldn't take. We also have to remember that all of this takes place seven years after the conference so a lot of minds might believe that rebelling is the only way and Anders actions give them the opportunity to do so and be sucessful.

[thebrute7]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ninche wrote...
This is also why Sebastian just makes me so angry, not just a religious marriage but a CHASTE one too?? Hmm let me see - the painfully sexy tortured mage who will make passionate love to me every night as we change the world together or praying in church every day with my husband whom i will never EVER touch. REALLY Sebastian?

It's better on the rivalry path.  That's what I keep telling everyone about Seb.  Instead of the "chaste" marriage thing, you get him talking about how you'll be Viscountess of Kirkwall and Prince of Starkhaven, and he'll offer you no less than what a prince can.  

This is the only way to go with Seb IMO.  The other path is just annoying.

[Sable Rhapsody]

thebrute7 wrote...
This is the only way to go with Seb IMO.  The other path is just annoying.

The friendship path is sweet, don't get me wrong, but he's such a waffling PANSY on it.  

[Poetics124]

Ninche wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ninche wrote...
This is also why Sebastian just makes me so angry, not just a religious marriage but a CHASTE one too?? Hmm let me see - the painfully sexy tortured mage who will make passionate love to me every night as we change the world together or praying in church every day with my husband whom i will never EVER touch. REALLY Sebastian?

It's better on the rivalry path.  That's what I keep telling everyone about Seb.  Instead of the "chaste" marriage thing, you get him talking about how you'll be Viscountess of Kirkwall and Prince of Starkhaven, and he'll offer you no less than what a prince can.  

I think for Sebastian who have to pick any choice that encourages him to leave the Chantry and rule Starkhaven.  That will get you some pretty big rivalry points of the break.
I honestly don't know how to make Sebastian NOT LIKE me. Hell it feels to me like I have ONE converstaion with him right before Leliana shows up and he just ends up giving me +25 friendship twice whatever I do. But to be honest I ignore him totally and have never tried to work on the relationship in any way. Wasting my time on anyone else except Anders is turning out to be impossibly straining. I need to thank Miri and her stories for making me see Fenris as someone I could LIKE at all in order to romance him before Anders in my current playthrough. Anyone else just doesn't do it for me. 

Also while we're talking about it: So what non companions can you sleep with?

 
I think you have keep talking him into being prince of starkhaven in order to get a lot of rivalry points.  It works pretty well.

Modifié par Poetics124, 19 avril 2011 - 07:57 .

[upsettingshorts]

Poetics124 wrote...

But then all the Circles rebelled as a result of his actions, even Wynne's. 

Because he forced their hand, and we're never given an inkling that he has been given the authority to do so.  That they eventually came around to the idea of rebellion post-DA2 isn't particularly relevant to the point that he didn't have any right to make that decision on the behalf of all mages in Thedas in the first place.

Poetics124 wrote...

  Many leaders make decisions on behalf of their people that their people, if given the choice, wouldn't take. We also have to remember that all of this takes place seven years after the conference so a lot of minds might believe that rebelling is the only way and Anders actions give them the opportunity to do so and be sucessful.

I'm essentially making an argument based upon the ethical concept of Just War theory.  One of the major requirements is having legitimate authority.  Anders clearly lacks this, and it's not the only criterium his actions fail to adaquetely clear.  This isn't to proclaim Just War theory as some absolute unassailable ethical guide to whether or not a war is "good" or not, but it is a good starting point. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 avril 2011 - 07:58 .

[Jean]

GailRana wrote...

Batteries wrote...
*snip*
Romanced Anders does leave a Hawke who makes the deal with that demon in Night Terrors quest.

wait, really? Nice! Do any of the others have breaking points?

None that I am aware of.
You'd have to ask their respective threads, I'm sure they'd know.

[thebrute7]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...
This is the only way to go with Seb IMO.  The other path is just annoying.

The friendship path is sweet, don't get me wrong, but he's such a waffling PANSY on it.  

That's what I meant really.  Waffling annoys me.  I can respect people who will take a stand on their beliefs.  People who flip back and forth grate on me a little.

[GailRana]

Batteries wrote...

None that I am aware of.
You'd have to ask their respective threads, I'm sure they'd know.

you mean.... go outside this thread? but it's scary out there

[thebrute7]

Batteries wrote...

GailRana wrote...

Batteries wrote...
*snip*
Romanced Anders does leave a Hawke who makes the deal with that demon in Night Terrors quest.

wait, really? Nice! Do any of the others have breaking points?

None that I am aware of.
You'd have to ask their respective threads, I'm sure they'd know.

I am pretty sure handing Fenris over to Danarius will break his romance  

[Kawamura]

yukidama wrote...

Oh, all right. Only because there is rampant pantlessness and my Hawke is a bigger monogamy queen than Fenris and wouldn't jump overboard after encasing himself with Petrify.

Aww. That's so sweet.

It's like a little stone waistcoat!

My Hawke's pretty monogamous, too, even though he doesn't act like the serious sort that would be. My Warden, on the other hand, is much more withdrawn and subdued and ... he's in a fairly open relationship with Zevran.

I love ****ing with stereotypes.

[GailRana]

thebrute7 wrote...

*snip*
I am pretty sure handing Fenris over to Danarius will break his romance  

yeah, a complete mind wipe has a nasty habbit of doing that.

[Sable Rhapsody]

thebrute7 wrote...

That's what I meant really.  Waffling annoys me.  I can respect people who will take a stand on their beliefs.  People who flip back and forth grate on me a little.

Bet you loved Seb and Elthina, then 

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm essentially making an argument based upon the ethical concept of Just War theory.  One of the major requirements is having legitimate authority.  Anders clearly lacks this, and it's not the only criterium his actions fail to adaquetely clear.  This isn't to proclaim Just War theory as some absolute unassailable ethical guide to whether or not a war is "good" or not, but it is a good starting point.  

It's a good starting point, but you have to remember that in Thedas (and indeed any other low fantasy), authority is rarely legitimate.  Depending on the Circle, the Senior Enchanters and First Enchanters can be anything from Irving (who actually holds a fair amount of clout in his own Circle) to Orsino, who is no better than a prisoner's advocate.  What's more, they don't actually have final say over the Circles.  The Chantry does, and their authority amounts to divine right and a metric button of templars with pointy swords.

[Threeparts]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Poetics124 wrote...

But then all the Circles rebelled as a result of his actions, even Wynne's. 

Because he forced their hand, and we're never given an inkling that he has been given the authority to do so.  That they eventually came around to the idea of rebellion post-DA2 isn't particularly relevant to the point that he didn't have any right to make that decision on the behalf of all mages in Thedas in the first place.

Is this necessarily the case, though? I'm sure the other Circles could have responded with shock and outrage, condemning his actions and maintaining the status quo. While Orsino instructed the mages in the Gallows to get out and spread the word (evidently believing that this would encourage others to speak out against the Kirkwall abuses), I'm sure the other First Enchanters could have chosen to speak in favour of the Chantry in order to stay uninvolved.

[thebrute7]

GailRana wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

*snip*
I am pretty sure handing Fenris over to Danarius will break his romance  

yeah, a complete mind wipe has a nasty habbit of doing that.

Oh, did I forget you can also end Anders' romance at the end of the game by stabbing him   That works too.

[Ninche]

GailRana wrote...

Batteries wrote...
*snip*
Romanced Anders does leave a Hawke who makes the deal with that demon in Night Terrors quest.

wait, really? Nice! Do any of the others have breaking points?

Interesting! I might run and try it out right now and make a video!

[GailRana]

thebrute7 wrote...

*snip*

you can also end Anders' romance at the end of the game by stabbing him   That works too.

psh, I'm sure justice can still come back and glare at you some. But yeah, relationship is pretty much over at that point.

Seriously though, i'd like to know if any of the others choose to leave you because of an action

Modifié par GailRana, 19 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[upsettingshorts]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

It's a good starting point, but you have to remember that in Thedas (and indeed any other low fantasy), authority is rarely legitimate.

Thats why I usually don't even bring this up without mentioning that whole Cumberland thing.  DA:A established that a legitimate authority within the mages of the Circles of Thedas does exist.  Otherwise, why are they meeting, why is Anders worried about what they might decide, and why does Wynne think that it has any importance at all?

Threeparts wrote...

Is this necessarily the case, though?

No, not at all.

However like I said, the actions of the Circles of Thedas post-DA2 aren't strictly relevant if we're talking about the legitimacy Anders had to make such decisions.  What happens after is a reaction by the status quo to the paradigm shift he instigated.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Anders being badass:

www.youtube.com/watch

[GailRana]

Ninche wrote...

Interesting! I might run and try it out right now and make a video!

for science! Let me know if it turns out

[Poetics124]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Poetics124 wrote...

But then all the Circles rebelled as a result of his actions, even Wynne's. 

Because he forced their hand, and we're never given an inkling that he has been given the authority to do so.  That they eventually came around to the idea of rebellion post-DA2 isn't particularly relevant to the point that he didn't have any right to make that decision on the behalf of all mages in Thedas in the first place.

Poetics124 wrote...

  Many leaders make decisions on behalf of their people that their people, if given the choice, wouldn't take. We also have to remember that all of this takes place seven years after the conference so a lot of minds might believe that rebelling is the only way and Anders actions give them the opportunity to do so and be sucessful.

I'm essentially making an argument based upon the ethical concept of Just War theory.  One of the major requirements is having legitimate authority. 

Anders doesn't force their hands.   The other circles aren't in danger over what happens in Kirkwall.  They choose to rebel. Those mages who survive Kirkwall spread the news to other Circles about what happened and they were inspired to rebel.   It was a domino effect that stems from Anders actions and created more actions against Chantry rule.   

The circles rebel out of choice and out of inspiration that they could be free.

[Darkmeadow90]

If you take too long in act 2 to do Fenris' quest he can leave too.

[CatOfEvilGenius]

I'm many pages behind, so I hope this reply is still relevant.

phantomdragoness wrote:

Although CatOfEvilGenius does bring up a good point...the phrase stands:
"Easier said than done." What action could have possibly been peaceful
at the highpoint of tension? Everyone is ready to pull a sword at
another's throat, any compromise would have been shot down; angry people
do not like to compromise - I applaud Orcino for still trying to make
Meredith retract the Annulment, even if it did not work out. As I
pointed out before, Meredith was too far gone to consider compromise -
even if a part of her regretted it all.

In my opinion, the situation in Kirkwall was not salvageable.  I would have abandoned Kirkwall in Act 2, dragging Anders by the hair, but BioWare did not give me that option.  (Would have made a boring story.)  The rest of Thedas is not Kirkwall, not Meredith and Orsino.  Look at Irving and Greagor.  They had a decent working relationship and mutual trust.  I think there is hope for reform in the rest of Thedas, although not immediate, not everywhere at once.  See my answer to Miri below...

Miri1984 wrote...

It's all very well to say non-violent change would be better, but when and where is it going to happen? King Alistair is very clear that no matter how he treats apostates in Ferelden, he has no power over the Chantry or the Templars, so what goes on in the Circle is out of his jurisdiction. Orlais is a centre of Chantry power. The circles in Starkhaven and the other Free Cities are all to varying degrees as bad as Kirkwall is (considering there are just as many mages who want to escape from them) and the Divine is willing to call an exalted march on Kirkwall because there's a mage rebellion. Mages who speak out against the Chantry are all apostates, and all criminals, so once they're exposed they get taken to the circle. Families who object to having their children taken away or try to shelter mages from the circle are treated as criminals.

I would really like to know what action can possibly be taken (bar the action that Anders' takes of forcing a way) could improve the lot for mages?

(snip)

I don't find Anders attack on the Chantry
comparable to the attack on Harper's ferry.  John Brown attacked a
military arsenal.  Had Anders attacked templar barracks or Meredith's
office, that would have been comparable.  I know
we disagree strongly about whether Elthina and the Chantry were
military targets, we both posted about it, so I won't get into that again.

Are you asking me about Kirkwall specifically or Thedas in general?  Kirkwall was a lost cause.  As for the rest of Thedas, how about this?  Rebel mages, and even templars like Ser Thrask, flee the Circles.  Then they don't just hide out among sympathisizers, but actively get people on their side by running medical clinics, and by fighting off darkspawn stragglers / raiders / slavers, crazy bloodmages, and providing other services a mage can provide.  Find and hide mage children before the templars rip them from their parents.  Spread pamphlets too, but that's secondary.  Get people to WANT mages among them, and they will defend mages and question the Chantry. 

Of course this peaceful approach may not be completely bloodless.  The Chantry will surely send armed forces to root out resistance cells.  However, templars may hesitate to fight an entire town of civilian sympathizers, where they wouldn't hesitate to wipe out a group of mages with little or no public support.  There is much historical precedent for this.  Government troops refusing to fire on protesters, and even siding with them in some cases.  If it does come down to armed conflict, it's politically better for the mages to have the populace on their side, than to have an angry populace that blames the mages for the war, or blames both sides and doesn't much care about mage rights.  People sympathize with those who *defend* themselves, not with those they see as dangerous *aggressors*.  I know we have very different opinions about the level of public support for the mages.  Posted about what I saw in DAO and DA2 to support my view, won't spam you with a repost.  Can dig up the link if you're interested.

Suppose Ferelden instituted sweeping reforms.  We still have the Divine in Orlais, sure.  But now the Orlesians can see there is another way to deal with mages.  Maybe they want magical clinics too, rather than getting drafted into an Exalted March on Ferelden.  Maybe the Empress doesn't want bloody conflict in Orlais, or a war with Ferelden, because it leaves Orlais open to invasion, disrupts the nobles party schedule, etc.  So maybe mage concessions are made to avert a war.  Maybe mages from other nations start fleeing to Fereldan because it's so much better there, and now Fereldan can wield a substantial mage military force in its defense, discouraging invasion.  Or maybe Orlais invades, and the Divine calls an Exalted March.  I admit the possibility.  However, if the mages have public support, it may be a shorter conflict, with easier reconciliation afterwards, so still less bloody.

[upsettingshorts]

Poetics124:

I'm totally willing to accept that scenario as it still wouldn't change the crux of the argument.