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[Ryzaki]

Why does Beth's face change everytime she dies in the deeproads? I know she's supposed to have the blight but her whole facial structure and hairstyle change. :/

[Poetics124]

Threeparts wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Poetics124 wrote...

But then all the Circles rebelled as a result of his actions, even Wynne's. 

Because he forced their hand, and we're never given an inkling that he has been given the authority to do so.  That they eventually came around to the idea of rebellion post-DA2 isn't particularly relevant to the point that he didn't have any right to make that decision on the behalf of all mages in Thedas in the first place.

Is this necessarily the case, though? I'm sure the other Circles could have responded with shock and outrage, condemning his actions and maintaining the status quo. While Orsino instructed the mages in the Gallows to get out and spread the word (evidently believing that this would encourage others to speak out against the Kirkwall abuses), I'm sure the other First Enchanters could have chosen to speak in favour of the Chantry in order to stay uninvolved.

Yep.  The First Enchanters could have easily said "Anders is crazy.  He doesn't stand for all mages.  Let's continue what we were doing and wait until things return to normal."

They choose to rebel and sucessfully break free of the Circles.    That's a lot of mages just saying the hell with it and went for gold.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Thats why I usually don't even bring this up without mentioning that whole Cumberland thing.  DA:A established that a legitimate authority within the mages of the Circles of Thedas does exist.  Otherwise, why are they meeting, why is Anders worried about what they might decide, and why does Wynne think that it has any importance at all?

In terms of their RIGHT to make decision on behalf of the mages, I agree.  The College of Magi do constitute legitimate authority.

In terms of their ABILITY to enact those decisions?  Not so much.  Remember that the magi boon in DA:O doesn't go through, regardless of ruler.  The Grand Enchanter elected from the Cumberland gathering is nothing more than a representative from the Circles to the Divine.  I imagine Wynne and Anders are worried in DA:A not about the right of their leaders to pull away from the Circle, but rather their ability to enforce such a decision.  Ultimately, they and the Circles are beholden to the Chantry, and nothing changes that ugly truth.

[upsettingshorts]

If they lacked the ability before Anders blew up a Chantry hundreds of miles away, then his doing so wouldn't grant them any additional ability. It might grand them additional incentive, but not ability.

Anyway... what "I" would have done would be to dissolve the Kirkwall Circle and redistribute the mages across the rest of Thedas. The fact the veil in Kirkwall is dangerously thin makes having a Circle there at all inherently dangerous. As a consequence, I would dramatically downsize the Templar presence - they'd still need to be around to deal with apostates - and as a "reward" I would kick Meredith upstairs as the smaller Templar presence wouldn't require command of someone so "accomplished."

But the game can't include every possible solution.

[kromify]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Poetics124 wrote...

But then all the Circles rebelled as a result of his actions, even Wynne's. 

Because he forced their hand, and we're never given an inkling that he has been given the authority to do so.  That they eventually came around to the idea of rebellion post-DA2 isn't particularly relevant to the point that he didn't have any right to make that decision on the behalf of all mages in Thedas in the first place.

Poetics124 wrote...

  Many leaders make decisions on behalf of their people that their people, if given the choice, wouldn't take. We also have to remember that all of this takes place seven years after the conference so a lot of minds might believe that rebelling is the only way and Anders actions give them the opportunity to do so and be sucessful.

I'm essentially making an argument based upon the ethical concept of Just War theory.  One of the major requirements is having legitimate authority.  Anders clearly lacks this, and it's not the only criterium his actions fail to adaquetely clear.  This isn't to proclaim Just War theory as some absolute unassailable ethical guide to whether or not a war is "good" or not, but it is a good starting point. 

so... it would be just if Orsino started it? 

[upsettingshorts]

kromify wrote...

so... it would be just if Orsino started it?

I'll go with "potentially more just."

Just as it would be had Anders simply assassinated Elthina, or bombed Meredith's office with her in it instead.  Lots of things.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 avril 2011 - 08:16 .

[Threeparts]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Is this necessarily the case, though?

No, not at all.

However like I said, the actions of the Circles of Thedas post-DA2 aren't strictly relevant if we're talking about the legitimacy Anders had to make such decisions.  What happens after is a reaction by the status quo to the paradigm shift he instigated.

I'm not entirely certain his aim was to instigate a war in the first place. He wanted to change how things worked in Kirkwall, and surely the possibility that it could lead to warfare would have occured to him, but did he need legitimate authority to start a war if the war was a consequence of his actions rather than the basis of them? 
It's almost certainly a moot point given that it has lead to war, but I would find its inevitability debateable.

[Jean]

If you do choose the mage boon something does happen with the circle in Ferelden, just don't know what.

I was more interested in what was happening there than any other circle to be honest.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

But the game can't include every possible solution.

No, alas.  I wish I could've come up with a more political solution.  More than the mages were chafing under Meredith's rule; the nobles, the criminals, the old Viscount's office...hell, it was almost impossible to find anyone outside the Chantry and the guard who DIDN'T loathe her. 

But apparently no matter how much the city seems to hate and fear the templars, you need their support to be Viscount.  Clearly no one at BioWare has ever read Machiavelli 

[Purposeof-Flight]

Batteries wrote...

If you do choose the mage boon something does happen with the circle in Ferelden, just don't know what.

I was more interested in what was happening there than any other circle to be honest.

There's one playthrough where the Circle mages can be freed.
Alistair argues with Meredith about it in Act 3.

[upsettingshorts]

Threeparts wrote...

I'm not entirely certain his aim was to instigate a war in the first place.

Oh I am.  His staff-slamming speech was basically a declaration of war against the status quo, and then he burned the bridge back to it by blowing up the Chantry.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 avril 2011 - 08:18 .

[GailRana]

Sorry to interrupt! This made me smile


mentharvensis

[Sable Rhapsody]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

I'm not entirely certain his aim was to instigate a war in the first place.

Oh I am.  His staff-slamming speech was basically a declaration of war against the status quo, and then he burned the bridge back to it by blowing up the Chantry.

Yeah, I agree with Upsettingshorts here.  Not to mention that if you question him about the so-called "potion," he says, "What we have gathered will help mages throughout Thedas."  If you ask him whether the ends justify the means before you decide whether to kill him at the Gallows, he says he's "changing a world."

That sounds like a guy hellbent on war to me.

[CatOfEvilGenius]

a person wrote:

(snip)

Reminds me of Mormons.

(snip)

While I happen to completely agree with the statements I snipped, it may be better to stay away from discussion of real world religions.  Very touchy subject for some.

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Right, so it doesn't matter what you do.

If only there were epilogue cards after DA2 to inform people who lack the imagination or the critical thinking skills to detail precisely which choices mattered and what might possibly happen in the future as a result. This needs to be dumbed back down to DAO levels in DA3.

Okay, that was probably a little too mean spirited. I blame my headache.

Oh.  I'm supposed to imagine an ending that may be retconned in the next installment?

Okay.  My Hawke has to run off and live as a fugitive because her actions to defend the Kirkwall Circle are used as pretext for a rebellion of Circles across the Andrastian world in which countless numbers of people die, and an abomination she let live to help her defend that Circle took off afterward and is up to Maker knows what because for whatever reason she wasn't able to stick a knife in him after it was over.

Yeah, see, I didn't need you to offer the obvious.  I just don't like the result of playing out the postlude, and hence, the choice presented to us in-game feels futile and I really don't care to participate in that story.

[Poetics124]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

But the game can't include every possible solution.

No, alas.  I wish I could've come up with a more political solution.  More than the mages were chafing under Meredith's rule; the nobles, the criminals, the old Viscount's office...hell, it was almost impossible to find anyone outside the Chantry and the guard who DIDN'T loathe her. 

But apparently no matter how much the city seems to hate and fear the templars, you need their support to be Viscount.  Clearly no one at BioWare has ever read Machiavelli 

I think nobody was really willing to step to Meredith because Meredith killed the last Viscount who tried and Grand Cleric Elthina backed her up and gave her a promotion to Knight Commader.  Yes, the last Viscount was douchebag, but still....people had a right to be terrified of her.

[kromify]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

But the game can't include every possible solution.

No, alas.  I wish I could've come up with a more political solution.  More than the mages were chafing under Meredith's rule; the nobles, the criminals, the old Viscount's office...hell, it was almost impossible to find anyone outside the Chantry and the guard who DIDN'T loathe her. 

But apparently no matter how much the city seems to hate and fear the templars, you need their support to be Viscount.  Clearly no one at BioWare has ever read Machiavelli 

it depends who you side with at the beginning of act lll whether many agree with meredith or not.

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Batteries wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
So it really doesn't matter what you do. I can't see, even if you defend the mages, that any of them are going to survive anyway.

.

"She/He defended the mages against a brutal injustice and many lived to tell the tale. The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."

Word of Varric.

So they survive one battle in order to fight a war. Great.

Why wouldn't they want to at that point? Now that they know how expendeble they are in the eyes of the Chantry and that the templars aren't infallible enemies...what do they have to lose?

At the very least, it sounds like they get the hell out of Kirkwall. That's a win for them right there.

They didn't know that before?

[Nyreen]

GailRana wrote...

Sorry to interrupt! This made me smile


mentharvensis

LMFAO!! lolololololOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! 

[thebrute7]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

But the game can't include every possible solution.

No, alas.  I wish I could've come up with a more political solution.  More than the mages were chafing under Meredith's rule; the nobles, the criminals, the old Viscount's office...hell, it was almost impossible to find anyone outside the Chantry and the guard who DIDN'T loathe her. 

But apparently no matter how much the city seems to hate and fear the templars, you need their support to be Viscount.  Clearly no one at BioWare has ever read Machiavelli 

This is what AU fanfiction is for.  We get to do things we otherwise couldn't in game.  (Like me saving both Bethany and Carver, and having my Hawke have a relationship much like Wynne had with Faith with a spirit of Love)

[mellifera]

Hey, killing Anders doesn't end his romance. People have gotten Varric saying that everyone but Anders left Hawke's side after that. He's persistent.

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

Yeah, see, I didn't need you to offer the obvious.  I just don't like the result of playing out the postlude, and hence, the choice presented to us in-game feels futile and I really don't care to participate in that story.

So then an argument like, "I didn't like the story" would seem a lot less self-righteous, pretentious, and inaccurate than "Hawke doesn't matter."  Wouldn't it?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 avril 2011 - 08:25 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Poetics124 wrote...

I think nobody was really willing to step to Meredith because Meredith killed the last Viscount who tried and Grand Cleric Elthina backed her up and gave her a promotion to Knight Commader.  Yes, the last Viscount was douchebag, but still....people had a right to be terrified of her.

I can't remember the exact quote.  But Machiavelli says something about how though it's better to be feared than loved, it is best to be both loved and feared, and inadvisable to be hated.

Meredith was feared, yes.  But she was also hated.  By Act 3, the nobles, the mages, and even her own templars started hating her enough to overcome their fears of retribution and openly conspire against her.  If Hawke had a year, maybe two, of extra time, a political overthrow might have been feasible.  If you talk with Seneschal Bran in Act 3, he makes it very clear that Hawke has a lot of popular support.  You pit a figure who's feared and loved against a figure who's hated...guess who wins?

[GailRana]

Celestina wrote...
*Snip soft kitty*

LMFAO!! lolololololOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! 

He tottaly makes hawke sing that to him when he's sick

[SmilingDeceit]

*tests the water*

Sorry to interupt. I know I'm late for this party, but since I can't bring myself to start another playthrough.. figured better late than never.

Thought I'll poke my head in over at the forums, see what's whats, maybe dance around naked under the moon while Elthina is burning on a pyre, and now days later I find myself here- being distracted by the craziness in this thread instead of actually doing things. ><

Oh gods, why did I think reading things on the internet would actually end up as a good idea...

Also made the mistake of clicking the TranqAnders link a few pages back. Ffffffffff