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[Mariquis]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Poetics124 wrote...

My thinking is the mages see this as a chance to be free and if it comes to war, then it comes to war.   In there mind, there are just some things worth dying for. 

That is Anders' argument as well.  The issue I have with it is the scale of his actions, as well as Hawke's should they support them - is it makes that decision, with their lives being the very stakes, for all other mages in Thedas for them, without their input.

Kirkwall itself is a powderkeg, it will explode one way or another - but the idea that the policies of the rest of Thedas should rest on the fate of this incredibly screwed up - in more ways than one - place, by a few crazy people within it, is a big problem.

Especially considering that the meeting at Cumberland Wynne mentioned in DA:A produced... no significant change in the status quo.  Literally the people who have been put in position by their peers to make decisions on behalf of the mages in Thedas didn't decide to go to war with the Chantry.  Not enough is made of this, I think.

De-anoning for this I guess.

With that meeting of Cumberland though, the whole reason Wynne went was to talk the mages down. If someone could scrap up the quote I'd be eternally grateful, but she felt it had to be stopped because she figured the divine would see the mages dead before setting them free. Wynne was not supporting the circle in the way the templars did, but she did realize that the situation was rather too delicate to just say 'gimme.'   But the fact that the decision making mages didn't come to a conclusion to be free wasn't a choice, not really. It was self preservation.  

I think Anders actions were quite selfish re: the kirkwall circle. There might well have been mages in that circle that were happy with their lot in life, and he forced their hand with making them fight for survival. But the other circles didn't have that problem. They were isolated groups and what happened in the other circle had no bearing on them (especially since he was an apostate, not a circle mage).  Their hands were not forced, and they would have had to choose to rise up. I suppose you could argue that some in the other circles didn't want to rise up, but that's no different than saying that some in the circle didn't want to be imprisoned as they were previously. There's no way to keep everyone happy in such a drastic situation.

Man what a serious-face comment to de-anon on. If I knew how to link pictures I would link that comic of Anders and tiger ser-pounce just to cheer things up.

[upsettingshorts]

Poetics124 wrote...

I think nobody was really willing to step to Meredith because Meredith killed the last Viscount who tried and Grand Cleric Elthina backed her up and gave her a promotion to Knight Commader.  Yes, the last Viscount was douchebag, but still....people had a right to be terrified of her.

That's why the Kicked Upstairs solution would be brilliant.  If only I could have made this argument to the Divine through Sister Nightengale... alas...

[kromify]

wow this threads fast, i can barely keep up...

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Batteries wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
So it really doesn't matter what you do. I can't see, even if you defend the mages, that any of them are going to survive anyway.

.

"She/He defended the mages against a brutal injustice and many lived to tell the tale. The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."

Word of Varric.

So they survive one battle in order to fight a war. Great.

Why wouldn't they want to at that point? Now that they know how expendeble they are in the eyes of the Chantry and that the templars aren't infallible enemies...what do they have to lose?

At the very least, it sounds like they get the hell out of Kirkwall. That's a win for them right there.

They didn't know that before?

I have the feeling the average mage isn't the sharpest knife in the rack. 

[thebrute7]

Celestina wrote...

GailRana wrote...

Sorry to interrupt! This made me smile
*snip*
mentharvensis

LMFAO!! lolololololOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! 

OMG!  I officially love that

[upsettingshorts]

Mariquis wrote...

 It was self preservation. 

Indeed it was, which is why I addressed the point specifically in response to Anders deciding for everyone that death was preferable to the status quo.  

That conflicts with the very idea of self-preservation.

[GailRana]

SmilingDeceit wrote...

*tests the water*

Sorry to interupt. I know I'm late for this party, but since I can't bring myself to start another playthrough.. figured better late than never.

Thought I'll poke my head in over at the forums, see what's whats, maybe dance around naked under the moon while Elthina is burning on a pyre, and now days later I find myself here- being distracted by the craziness in this thread instead of actually doing things. ><

Oh gods, why did I think reading things on the internet would actually end up as a good idea...

Also made the mistake of clicking the TranqAnders link a few pages back. Ffffffffff

full moon was last night, so you just missed the naked dance part. But there's always next month if you stick around

and that tranq pick is so awful! But i also kind of love it  

[ipgd]

It just seems kind of pointless to argue about the "rightness" of Anders's actions until we ultimately see what they lead to. There isn't really an argument that killing innocent people and blowing up a building isn't absolutely horrible, but whether or not it's justifiable requires information we don't have yet.

[kromify]

http://browse.devian... age 2#/d3cizy1

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Yeah, see, I didn't need you to offer the obvious.  I just don't like the result of playing out the postlude, and hence, the choice presented to us in-game feels futile and I really don't care to participate in that story.

So then an argument like, "I didn't like the story" would seem a lot less self-righteous, pretentious, and inaccurate than "Hawke doesn't matter."  Wouldn't it?

You're in the middle of a revolution either way.  I can't see that Hawke matters much, no.

[Nyreen]

GailRana wrote...

Celestina wrote...
*Snip soft kitty*

LMFAO!! lolololololOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! 

He tottaly makes hawke sing that to him when he's sick

Indeed! It's idiosynchrasies like this that make Bioware characters so lovable.

[Sable Rhapsody]

ipgd wrote...

It just seems kind of pointless to argue about the "rightness" of Anders's actions until we ultimately see what they lead to. There isn't really an argument that killing innocent people and blowing up a building isn't absolutely horrible, but whether or not it's justifiable requires information we don't have yet.

Yeah, any consequentialist argument kind of hinges on understanding the consequences, and we don't yet. Though we could have deontological discussions all day long about Anders' actions.

[thebrute7]

ipgd wrote...

It just seems kind of pointless to argue about the "rightness" of Anders's actions until we ultimately see what they lead to. There isn't really an argument that killing innocent people and blowing up a building isn't absolutely horrible, but whether or not it's justifiable requires information we don't have yet.

So what we ultimately have to decide is whether or not the results of Anders' actions are good enough to accept consequencetialism in this case.

[Kawamura]

yukidama wrote...

Hey, killing Anders doesn't end his romance. People have gotten Varric saying that everyone but Anders left Hawke's side after that. He's persistent.

Rigor mortis?

[CatOfEvilGenius]

yukidama wrote:

phantomdragoness wrote...

yukidama wrote...

People are saying the next game will take place in Orlais.... THEDAS WILL BECOME ORLAIS.

AN ENTIRE CONTINENT ABSOLUTELY FESTOONED WITH RUFFLES.

I want to know more about the rest of the planet, though...... DA32 we find out Thedas is actually Atlantis and Dragon Age all took place in our past and then Anders wakes up in a mental institution in 1965 and it was all in his head and then they lobotomize him and a big Native American stereotype throws a Heavy Object through a window and escapes.



...

If Bioware does that...I will make a poop bomb and blow up their studio.



It's okay, BioWare will have learned their lesson about short dev cycles and DA32 will be released in 2194, the lead writer being David Gaider's head, Futurama-style. We'll all be long-dead and won't care that the lobotimized Anders in the mental institution was actually a pile of cats in a hospital gown.

Horrific (and lulzy) as that scenario is, I would cryofreeze myself to play that game, rather than die never having played more DA. I'm that much of a BioWare fangirl, and a giant pile of cats makes everything better.

yukidama wrote:

I'm not magic yet! When everyone becomes a mage in Thedas, BioWare will
implement their new technology that makes every player an IRL mage too.
Then IRL will become Thedas and there will be templars and we'll all be
the mages and then someone will blow up something with a bomb made of
poop and start this whole mess over again.

Best. Game. Ever.

So, we get to smooch Anders in real life?  With the (pants)?
* runs off to find nearest source of sela petrae *

Modifié par CatOfEvilGenius, 19 avril 2011 - 08:35 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

We are not even sure if the war has even started yet. Cassandra was trying to find Hawke so that he/she could try to talk one of the sides down, not that the actual fighting had started.

Haha I sound like Cailan, "I'm not even sure this is a real Blight!"

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 19 avril 2011 - 08:34 .

[SmilingDeceit]

GailRana wrote...

full moon was last night, so you just missed the naked dance part. But there's always next month if you stick around

and that tranq pick is so awful! But i also kind of love it  

Oh I agree, on the picture. I love-hate it- love the detail, but thought behind it, just horrible in all the right ways.

This thread moves so fast, hard to keep up.

[GailRana]

Addai67 wrote...

You're in the middle of a revolution either way.  I can't see that Hawke matters much, no.

yep, so there's only one thing to do! Run off with your favorite crazy possessed apostate  *VivaLaMageRevolution*

[upsettingshorts]

ipgd wrote...

It just seems kind of pointless to argue about the "rightness" of Anders's actions until we ultimately see what they lead to.

I hesitate to use such a contemporary and controversial example, but replace "Anders' actions" with "The Iraq War" and see if that argument would still hold up.

And it's not really a consequentialist argument in this case.  I'm attempting to frame the discussion around Anders leading up to and including his destruction of the Chantry - nothing more. 

Jus ad bellum is more than an adaquete basis for discussion, and that would cover everything leading up to his actions.  The destruction of the Chantry would fall under jus in bello and is a bit of a different argument, one we usually have when we discuss terrorism.

Addai67 wrote...

You're in the middle of a revolution either way.  I can't see that Hawke matters much, no.

I'm wondering if it would be worth it to deconstruct and oversimplifiy the nuances of DAO's story in a similar way just to prove a point.  Probably not.  I'll just start mentally replacing your posts with blank spaces like I do with Aermas.  Might help with the headaches, too.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 avril 2011 - 08:37 .

[Nyreen]

kromify wrote...

http://browse.devian... age 2#/d3cizy1

Lolololol...Nice find kromify!

[GailRana]

SmilingDeceit wrote...
Oh I agree, on the picture. I love-hate it- love the detail, but thought behind it, just horrible in all the right ways.

sigh... i love the heartbreak. doesn't help that the idea of being tranquil scares me as much as it did anders. makes it all the worse.

I've been trying to find the artist of that one with no luck so far.

SmilingDeceit wrote...
This thread moves so fast, hard to keep up.

I know it is moving fast today, and i should be asleep, but this is way more fun!

Modifié par GailRana, 19 avril 2011 - 08:37 .

[Dunizel]

yukidama wrote...

Hey, killing Anders doesn't end his romance. People have gotten Varric saying that everyone but Anders left Hawke's side after that. He's persistent.

Hm..Hawke avoided vital points, he was just pretending to kill Anders just to shut everyone up and at the same everyone would have believed him dead. 
Perfect plan.
Then he and Anders can rejoin and be on the run.


Could you imagine the hate and rage if he survived somehow like this, or even as a zombie/Vengeance, from the people who killed him (or tried to in this case)? XD

[kromify]

Celestina wrote...

kromify wrote...

http://browse.devian... age 2#/d3cizy1

Lolololol...Nice find kromify!

ty! why she wouldn't be in the mood though, i have no idea. 

[Ninche]

 Okay, here is the brief report of my "forcing Anders to leave me" experiment in the Fade. 

It will take like 4 hours for the video to get on youtube but once it's done I'll link it. 

So I made a deal with the demon and asked for some random power (to chanel the fade or something? whatevs) and Justice went crazy fought me and I killed him. So after we tell Fenriel's mother that he's become an abomination and she's upset lala and Anders was really nice about it, he was like "he didnt fall to temptation he was tricked" and since I was doing something wrong I figured i might as well do it right so i went "nobody asked for your opinion" and he went "would you kill me again to silence me?" so then i got a quest to run and talk to him in his clinic and while i was running Merill started the whole "Are you happy cause she surely seems happy" banter, haha oh the iiirooony! I almost broke at that point but kept pressing on. So later in the clinic Anders told me he couldnt be with a woman who would sell herself to gain power and i was like OMGILOVEUSOMUCH in my head, and then he went to far and basically said "if you like your demons so much why dont you go away and romance merrill" and i was like awww really anders XD 

The experiment was worth it, I just like Anders even more if it's possible  

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

You're in the middle of a revolution either way.  I can't see that Hawke matters much, no.

I'm wondering if it would be worth it to deconstruct and oversimplifiy the nuances of DAO's story in a similar way just to prove a point.  Probably not.  I'll just start mentally replacing your posts with blank spaces like I do with Aermas.  Might help with the headaches, too.

The Warden ended a Blight and restored Ferelden's government, no matter how messily she might have done so.  Hawke started a war, whether she wanted to or not.  Yippee.  I suppose it works for you if you like the idea of your character being either mage revolutionary or templar enforcer.

But, if you'd rather be a prig than discuss the game, that works for me.