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[upsettingshorts]

It's cute when Anders thinks he's better than Merrill because his myths tell him he is.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 avril 2011 - 08:43 .

[Mariquis]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Mariquis wrote...

 It was self preservation. 

Indeed it was, which is why I addressed the point specifically in response to Anders deciding for everyone that death was preferable to the status quo.  

That conflicts with the very idea of self-preservation.

Hm, are you referring to everyone as in 'kirkwall circle mages' (in which case I agree) or everyone as in all circles mages everywhere.  Because with the latter I really don't think Anders decision had much impact on them, maybe they were watched a bit more closely (assuming they had reasonable overseers. I like to assume Greagoir is the rule, not the exception).

My apologies if I put words in your mouth, I'm admittedly quite addled right now.

[GailRana]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I hesitate to use such a contemporary and controversial example, but replace "Anders' actions" with "The Iraq War" and see if that argument would still hold up.

And it's not really a consequentialist argument in this case.  I'm attempting to frame the discussion around Anders leading up to and including his destruction of the Chantry - nothing more. 

Jus ad bellum is more than an adaquete basis for discussion, and that would cover everything leading up to his actions.  The destruction of the Chantry would fall under jus in bello and is a bit of a different argument, one we usually have when we discuss terrorism.

but replace "Anders" with "V/Guy Fawkes" and the argument becomes awesome!

Modifié par GailRana, 19 avril 2011 - 08:41 .

[Ryzaki]

Dunizel wrote...
Could you imagine the hate and rage if he survived somehow like this, or even as a zombie/Vengeance, from the people who killed him (or tried to in this case)? XD

I don't think people would get too angry if it was Vengeance butAnders himself. Bleh. I was sighing enough over Leliana (and when my game wigged out and resurrected Zevran).

Ignoring the few choices we get in DA2 wouldn't be fun. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 08:42 .

[kromify]

Ninche wrote...

 Okay, here is the brief report of my "forcing Anders to leave me" experiment in the Fade. 

It will take like 4 hours for the video to get on youtube but once it's done I'll link it. 

So I made a deal with the demon and asked for some random power (to chanel the fade or something? whatevs) and Justice went crazy fought me and I killed him. So after we tell Fenriel's mother that he's become an abomination and she's upset lala and Anders was really nice about it, he was like "he didnt fall to temptation he was tricked" and since I was doing something wrong I figured i might as well do it right so i went "nobody asked for your opinion" and he went "would you kill me again to silence me?" so then i got a quest to run and talk to him in his clinic and while i was running Merill started the whole "Are you happy cause she surely seems happy" banter, haha oh the iiirooony! I almost broke at that point but kept pressing on. So later in the clinic Anders told me he couldnt be with a woman who would sell herself to gain power and i was like OMGILOVEUSOMUCH in my head, and then he went to far and basically said "if you like your demons so much why dont you go away and romance merrill" and i was like awww really anders XD 

The experiment was worth it, I just like Anders even more if it's possible  

i'd like to see that. i've never dealt with the demon for obvious reasons!!! i have only gone so far as to trick it to get more precious Anders convo!

[CatOfEvilGenius]

Mistress Tasharra wrote...

Re: Sandal's Prophecy

Little late here, but I wanted to add a little something.

I think what Sandal says is very interesting. Amusing too. After playing Awakening I was convinced that there was more to magic and mages then they were telling us. Why? Because of Spirit Warriors, no less. Well, and Dwarves in the Fade.

I became convinced that everyone was capable of some level of magic. It's mentioned that even mages vary, right? Some are amazingly powerful from a young age, and others are barely ever able to light a candle or cast a simple cantrip. There had to be more to it. Then of course they started blurring the lines.

What's a Spirit Warrior? Not a mage, but a 'normal' person who consorts with the benevolent spirits of the Fade in order to gain "magic like" abilities. What is "magic like"? It's either magic, or it isn't. How can there be a middle ground? Sure they can't shoot Fire Balls from their finger tips... yet. Who's to say that someone who converses and learns from those Spirits couldn't eventually "re"learn magic?

Then there's the question of, why are some born mages and some aren't? We know the Chantry states that it was the Old Gods who first taught the Magisters magic, but the Codex entries in DAII give hints that this has been debunked, or is considered myth in some places. Besides, if that were true, then the Magisters must have been "normal" at one time, therefore implying that anyone could technically learn magic, no?

(snip)

If anyone could learn magic, and this became public knowledge, what a glorious ****storm that would be!  If the Chantry knows, I bet anything they would do all in their power to keep that knowledge from getting out.  Actually, forget the Chantry, what about the Ariqun?!  What if the qunari realized that an arvaarad could learn to be a saarebas?  The horror, the horror!

Anyone here read the Wheel of Time series? 
(highlight for SPOILER)  Remember the bit where the Seanchan learn that leash holders can learn to channel just like damane?  That did not go over well.  (end SPOILER)

Modifié par CatOfEvilGenius, 19 avril 2011 - 08:56 .

[upsettingshorts]

Mariquis wrote...

Hm, are you referring to everyone as in 'kirkwall circle mages' (in which case I agree) or everyone as in all circles mages everywhere.  Because with the latter I really don't think Anders decision had much impact on them, maybe they were watched a bit more closely (assuming they had reasonable overseers. I like to assume Greagoir is the rule, not the exception).

I think he's trying to impact all mages everywhere.   His speech certainly gives that impression.

[GailRana]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's cute when Anders thinks he's better than Merrill because his myths tell them he is.

I don't think he said anything to her that he hasn't already said to himself...

[Rinji the Bearded]

Eeh, I really can't place the Iraqi War anywhere close to what Anders did. The parallel isn't... well, parallel enough. I really, really hate using real world examples -- they may make nice muses for inspiration but for the politics? We might have some basic similarities but that's about it.

Fox News definitely would not like Anders, kind of off topic but...lol.

[upsettingshorts]

GailRana wrote...

I don't think he said anything to her that he hasn't already said to himself...

He seems to harp on the whole spirit vs. demon dichotomy which strikes me as convenient self-serving nonsense, but that may just be me.

[upsettingshorts]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Eeh, I really can't place the Iraqi War anywhere close to what Anders did. The parallel isn't... well, parallel enough. I really, really hate using real world examples -- they may make nice muses for inspiration but for the politics? We might have some basic similarities but that's about it. .

That's not what I meant.  I meant:

"We can't judge the justness of this conflict before it is resolved"  as an argument doesn't really work, and as an example of this, you can go back to 2002-2003 when the war was highly controversial before it even began, in part because the U.S. administration's jus ad bellum was so weak.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 avril 2011 - 08:46 .

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

I don't think he said anything to her that he hasn't already said to himself...

He seems to harp on the whole spirit vs. demon dichotomy which strikes me as convenient self-serving nonsense, but that may just be me.

It's not just you. 

God I want the rivalry ending fixed so I can finally finally hear him admit Justice is a demon. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 08:45 .

[Nyreen]

http://browse.devian...ction=&q=anders

Modifié par Celestina, 19 avril 2011 - 08:48 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

I don't think he said anything to her that he hasn't already said to himself...

He seems to harp on the whole spirit vs. demon dichotomy which strikes me as convenient self-serving nonsense, but that may just be me.

It's probably also Justice yelling at her.  Justice abhorred demons like no one's business, but being nothing but a spiritual representation of the feelings of mortals, he would have absolutely no clue when he actions became hypocritical.  Thus, we get Anders, the righteous hypocrite.

[GailRana]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

I don't think he said anything to her that he hasn't already said to himself...

He seems to harp on the whole spirit vs. demon dichotomy which strikes me as convenient self-serving nonsense, but that may just be me.

well, if you were comparing awakenings justice to a sloth or desire demon, you come away with a pretty distinct clarification too.

[Ninche]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Eeh, I really can't place the Iraqi War anywhere close to what Anders did. The parallel isn't... well, parallel enough. I really, really hate using real world examples -- they may make nice muses for inspiration but for the politics? We might have some basic similarities but that's about it.

Fox News definitely would not like Anders, kind of off topic but...lol.

I think even tho an elaborate and wonderfully complex a game Dragon Age may be, it is still a game and waaaay too basic comapred to any sort of real life political situation. It's hard to separate right from wrong in Thedas but definitely alot easier than here. As gaider puts it we can be idealistic in our games without worrying who we might be exterminating in the process. 

[Dunizel]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

I don't think he said anything to her that he hasn't already said to himself...

He seems to harp on the whole spirit vs. demon dichotomy which strikes me as convenient self-serving nonsense, but that may just be me.

The one time I agreed with Merrill, was when she said Anders this: 
"Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

There again she fails because even though she realizes that, she thinks she has everything under control.

[thebrute7]

Ryzaki wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

I don't think he said anything to her that he hasn't already said to himself...

He seems to harp on the whole spirit vs. demon dichotomy which strikes me as convenient self-serving nonsense, but that may just be me.

It's not just you. 

God I want the rivalry ending fixed so I can finally finally hear him admit Vengeance is a demon. 

Fixed.

Justice was nver a demon.  Vengeance on the other hand is a demon.  A spirit warped by his desires, or more specifically Anders' desires and hatred.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Eeh, I really can't place the Iraqi War anywhere close to what Anders did. The parallel isn't... well, parallel enough. I really, really hate using real world examples -- they may make nice muses for inspiration but for the politics? We might have some basic similarities but that's about it. .

That's not what I meant.  I meant:

"We can't judge the justness of this conflict before it is resolved"  as an argument doesn't really work, and as an example of this, you can go back to 2002-2003 when the war was highly controversial before it even began, in part because the U.S. administration's jus ad bellum was so weak.

Oh, I see where you're getting at now.  I can agree with that.

But sheesh the story would be so boring if we could make everything turn out nicely!  I kind of admire the fact that Hawke's a useless git.

*actively missing the point.*

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 19 avril 2011 - 08:49 .

[GailRana]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

I don't think he said anything to her that he hasn't already said to himself...

He seems to harp on the whole spirit vs. demon dichotomy which strikes me as convenient self-serving nonsense, but that may just be me.

It's probably also Justice yelling at her.  Justice abhorred demons like no one's business, but being nothing but a spiritual representation of the feelings of mortals, he would have absolutely no clue when he actions became hypocritical.  Thus, we get Anders, the righteous hypocrite.

plus he sees this girl walking with closed eyes into the exact nightmare that is his own life. He wants to stop it, but as we've seen, confrontation isn't his strong point

[Purposeof-Flight]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

I don't think he said anything to her that he hasn't already said to himself...

He seems to harp on the whole spirit vs. demon dichotomy which strikes me as convenient self-serving nonsense, but that may just be me.

Nope, not just you.
Listening to their party banter makes me grit my teeth.
He honestly has no right to constantly needle her about making deals with demons.

[upsettingshorts]

GailRana wrote...

well, if you were comparing awakenings justice to a sloth or desire demon, you come away with a pretty distinct clarification too.

That distinction is aggressiveness in attempting to corrupt mortals.  Their effect in corrupting mortals once joined with one is the same, all that changes is the nature of the corruption.

[kromify]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

I don't think he said anything to her that he hasn't already said to himself...

He seems to harp on the whole spirit vs. demon dichotomy which strikes me as convenient self-serving nonsense, but that may just be me.

It's probably also Justice yelling at her.  Justice abhorred demons like no one's business, but being nothing but a spiritual representation of the feelings of mortals, he would have absolutely no clue when he actions became hypocritical.  Thus, we get Anders, the righteous hypocrite.

flemeth; no path is darker than when you're eyes are shut tight... or words to that effect. merrill was being completely foolish, and Anders was trying to save her from herself. he knew what her fate might be and tried to scare her with it.

[CatOfEvilGenius]

Amondra wrote...

Camilladilla wrote...

There's power in blood in this game even if you're not a mage. Templars and phylacteries come to mind as well.

I kinda thought the Chantry used blood magic for that.  Kinda like it serves the greater good blah blah excueses.  Also I thought in the Mage origin they mention that they summoned a demon to you...sounds like the Chantry uses double standards

Someone's asking for an excommunication with that kind of heretical crazy talk!   Do we know what the penalties for dissent, I mean nasty bad heresy, are in Andrastian lands?  Do the Andrastians even have different denominations, other than the two that follow the Orlesian Divine and the Tevinter Divine?  That's more a massive schism than different denominations.  I don't count splinter factions like the dragon cult in Haven.

[Ryzaki]

thebrute7 wrote...
Fixed.

Justice was nver a demon.  Vengeance on the other hand is a demon.  A spirit warped by his desires, or more specifically Anders' desires and hatred.

True. Name change thing bugs me but yeah...his extra passanger is a demon. 

Spirits are demons are two halves of the same coin. They're not that different. All that distinguishes them seems to be desire. 

Hell even the spirit of Valor you meet gets offended when you say he's just trying to kill you himself. Makes me think spirits are those who have very limited contact with humans and demons don't. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 08:54 .