57020 réponses à ce sujet

[thebrute7]

Dunizel wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

I don't think he said anything to her that he hasn't already said to himself...

He seems to harp on the whole spirit vs. demon dichotomy which strikes me as convenient self-serving nonsense, but that may just be me.

The one time I agreed with Merrill, was when she said Anders this: 
"Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

There again she fails because even though she realizes that, she thinks she has everything under control.

Of course I disagree with Merrill.  Our experience in Dragon Age with Spirits and Dmeons seems self-explanatory for me.  We see demons of Sloth/Rage/Pride/Desire and we see/hear of Faith/Valor/Justice.  it seems clear to me that there is a distinction and an obvious one between the two.

Justice only became a demon when Anders' rage and desires turned him into Vengeance.

EDIT: ToP

Modifié par thebrute7, 19 avril 2011 - 08:52 .

[Nyreen]

Edit: Urg, I keep trying to post this image but the tags won't work. I've read the tutorial...

[img]http://www.deviantart.com/download/201252233/da2__anders_has_kittens_by_runaire-d3btj7t.jpg

Modifié par Celestina, 19 avril 2011 - 08:55 .

[Mariquis]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Mariquis wrote...

Hm, are you referring to everyone as in 'kirkwall circle mages' (in which case I agree) or everyone as in all circles mages everywhere.  Because with the latter I really don't think Anders decision had much impact on them, maybe they were watched a bit more closely (assuming they had reasonable overseers. I like to assume Greagoir is the rule, not the exception).

I think he's trying to impact all mages everywhere.   His speech certainly gives that impression.

He was trying to impact them surely, but I don't know if impact in this sense is equivalent to 'pushing them into a fight they don't want.'  I'm quite certain in the game he referred to it as a symbol/rallying call "showing other mages that the chanty could be defied." A symbol inspires, but it doesn't coerce.

Exceptin the kirkwall circle (whereupon the rite of annulment was ordered and the mages HAD to fight for their lives), mages would have been free to choose whether they agreed with his ideas and actions, and could then choose to do something about it. Attracting those who already want to fight for freedom, but not necessarily impacting those who don't (that would likely be up to the management of the individual circles).  The fact that the other mages/circles responded to his symbol shows (in my opinion, for what it's worth) that they at least felt similarly, otherwise he would have simply been ignored and disgraced as a crazed  man who committed a terrible crime (which he.. kind of was).

[Trophonius]

thebrute7 wrote...

Fixed.

Justice was nver a demon.  Vengeance on the other hand is a demon.  A spirit warped by his desires, or more specifically Anders' desires and hatred.

Justice isn't blameless. If Anders corrupted him into becoming Vengeance, then he's just as a guilty for allowing it to happen. This is the guy who encouraged Anders to give a damn about the plight of mages after all.

[thebrute7]

Ryzaki wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...
Fixed.

Justice was nver a demon.  Vengeance on the other hand is a demon.  A spirit warped by his desires, or more specifically Anders' desires and hatred.

True. Name change thing bugs me but yeah...his extra passanger is a demon. 

Yeah, I understand.  I insist on correcting this particular thing because there is a clear distinction that a lot of people miss.  So we get people who consider "Justice" a demon.  (Not you, since you just mislabelled Vengeance)

A personal pet peeve of mine

[Sable Rhapsody]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...
Do we know what the penalties for dissent, I mean nasty bad heresy, are in Andrastian lands?  Do the Andrastians even have different denominations, other than the two that follow the Orlesian Divine and the Tevinter Divine?  That's more a massive schism than different denominations.  I don't count splinter factions like the dragon cult in Haven.

Execution according to Anders when you give him the Tevinter Chantry amulet.  Though that's tantamount to giving a Catholic some sort of Protestant tract back in the era of religious wars in Europe.  

I got the impression that "minor" heresies (like Leliana's differences from Chantry orthodoxy in DA:O) are tolerated pretty well. 

[kromify]

wynne's spirit wasn't bad and they didn't corrupt each other. so i can't see it as a bad spirit. it just depends on who and what trait you mix up

[GailRana]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

well, if you were comparing awakenings justice to a sloth or desire demon, you come away with a pretty distinct clarification too.

That distinction is aggressiveness in attempting to corrupt mortals.  Their effect in corrupting mortals once joined with one is the same, all that changes is the nature of the corruption.

but isn't the only other closest example we have spirit healers? Not a full on possession, but they don't get warped by the mages healing.  He had no reason to think that they would turn justice into Vengeance

[Rinji the Bearded]

Mariquis wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Mariquis wrote...

Hm, are you referring to everyone as in 'kirkwall circle mages' (in which case I agree) or everyone as in all circles mages everywhere.  Because with the latter I really don't think Anders decision had much impact on them, maybe they were watched a bit more closely (assuming they had reasonable overseers. I like to assume Greagoir is the rule, not the exception).

I think he's trying to impact all mages everywhere.   His speech certainly gives that impression.

He was trying to impact them surely, but I don't know if impact in this sense is equivalent to 'pushing them into a fight they don't want.'  I'm quite certain in the game he referred to it as a symbol/rallying call "showing other mages that the chanty could be defied." A symbol inspires, but it doesn't coerce.

Exceptin the kirkwall circle (whereupon the rite of annulment was ordered and the mages HAD to fight for their lives), mages would have been free to choose whether they agreed with his ideas and actions, and could then choose to do something about it. Attracting those who already want to fight for freedom, but not necessarily impacting those who don't (that would likely be up to the management of the individual circles).  The fact that the other mages/circles responded to his symbol shows (in my opinion, for what it's worth) that they at least felt similarly, otherwise he would have simply been ignored and disgraced as a crazed  man who committed a terrible crime (which he.. kind of was).

Well, we don't even know that the Circles rose as a unanimous decision, whether they were forced to because of the increased pressure by the Templars, or even that there were radicals of Anders-liked-mind in the Circles that more or less forced a hostile take over... We just don't know yet!

[mellifera]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

So they survive one battle in order to fight a war. Great.[/quote]

Why wouldn't they want to at that point? Now that they know how expendeble they are in the eyes of the Chantry and that the templars aren't infallible enemies...what do they have to lose?

At the very least, it sounds like they get the hell out of Kirkwall. That's a win for them right there. [/quote]
They didn't know that before?[/quote]

I have the feeling the average mage isn't the sharpest knife in the rack. 
[/quote]

And your average non-mage is somehow smarter? They're all people and they come from the same place.

[thebrute7]

Trophonius wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

Fixed.

Justice was nver a demon.  Vengeance on the other hand is a demon.  A spirit warped by his desires, or more specifically Anders' desires and hatred.

Justice isn't blameless. If Anders corrupted him into becoming Vengeance, then he's just as a guilty for allowing it to happen. This is the guy who encouraged Anders to give a damn about the plight of mages after all.

I never said Justice was blameless.  At least i don't think I did.  I simply said he was not a demon.  I agree that he is equally guilty, as is Anders, of causing what happened.  But that doesn't make him a demon.  it makes him a Spirit who was trying to do the right thing and things went terribly wrong.

[upsettingshorts]

thebrute7 wrote...


Of course I disagree with Merrill.  Our experience in Dragon Age with Spirits and Dmeons seems self-explanatory for me.  We see demons of Sloth/Rage/Pride/Desire and we see/hear of Faith/Valor/Justice.  it seems clear to me that there is a distinction and an obvious one between the two.

We see "demons" of sloth/rage/pride/desire and "spirits" of faith/valor/justice because that is how they are introduced to us, with those labels attached.

It is Merrill's contention, and I suppose mine, that objectively all we've met are beings of the fade that personify concepts.  Whether those concepts are obviously self destructive, or more insidiously self-destructive isn't something I think Anders understands unless he's on the Rivalpath.

Merrill's error isn't in her estimation of the beings of the Fade, but in her own pride that she could control them and their influence.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 avril 2011 - 08:58 .

[Ryzaki]

yukidama wrote...

And your average non-mage is somehow smarter? They're all people and they come from the same place.

And I said the average non mage was smarter...where exactly? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 08:58 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Trophonius wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

Fixed.

Justice was nver a demon.  Vengeance on the other hand is a demon.  A spirit warped by his desires, or more specifically Anders' desires and hatred.

Justice isn't blameless. If Anders corrupted him into becoming Vengeance, then he's just as a guilty for allowing it to happen. This is the guy who encouraged Anders to give a damn about the plight of mages after all.

Well, it's kind of hard to blame Justice when he isn't really a person like you and me.  He is a spiritual manifestation of the mortal ideals of Justice.  He has little understanding of anything else -- only for things that he percieves as just/unjust. 

The only difference between him and a demon is that he is a manifestation of what we perceive to be of a virtuous trait, rather than a vice.  But even things we perceive to be inherently "good" things can be corrupted by negativity.  Justice can turn into Vengeance, Faith can turn into, say... Ignorance, and etc. etc. 

It's also hard to blame demons for making mages into abominations, but I think I'm rambling.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 19 avril 2011 - 09:03 .

[Heidenreich]

>.>

[Threeparts]

I find it interesting, because the Circles teach mages to become spirit healers, even though it makes the templars nervous. Anders and Merrill have obviously been raised to look at the Fade beings differently, and his education has apparently taught Anders that some spirits can be trusted and can be used for good when a mage works alongside them. The Circles teach that there is a clear line between demons and spirits, whereas Merrill was taught by the Keeper that, regardless of the qualities that they embody, spirits can't be trusted.
It's a pity Anders didn't receive Dalish training, but it is understandable that he would believe there is a difference between the two, even if he's sometimes blind to what Justice has become.

[kromify]

wouldn't it be fun if justice came out in the party banter. he might annihilate merrill and fenris, and seb... know what? never mind.

[nyxocity]

Threeparts wrote...

JesterPsychotica wrote...

He did mention my gender when I played a female mage and had Fenris in the party.

GailRana wrote...

doesn't he mention it when Fenris first suggest that hawk and the Arishok dual?

but yeah, it's weird that he would give f!Hawke the time of day in the first place

Ah, I've never had Fenris set up the duel: he's either offered it himself or I just killed the whole room. What does he say about it?

This is from pages back, but I wanted to note some things here.

On my green female warrior PT, Fenris was in the party, suggested we duel, Arishok said nope, she's a girl, and Fenris said I was a basa something or other, which meant gender didn't matter. The Arishok agreed, we fought.

On my purple male rogue PT, I don't exactly recall. I think Fenris still had to bring it up, even though that character unlocked the Arishok's respect achievement.

Last night on my mostly purple(mixed with red) female mage PT, Fenris was in the party, didn't say a WORD, and the Arishok told me I was basa whatever and offered to duel me. No mention of gender. The only difference is, this is the first character that told him that she would not surrender the elves either.

So... IDK. He WILL challenge a female to dueling without mentioning their gender. I'm just not sure what the certain set of circumstances is.

Modifié par thenyxie, 19 avril 2011 - 09:01 .

[nyxocity]

thenyxie wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

JesterPsychotica wrote...

He did mention my gender when I played a female mage and had Fenris in the party.

GailRana wrote...

doesn't he mention it when Fenris first suggest that hawk and the Arishok dual?

but yeah, it's weird that he would give f!Hawke the time of day in the first place

Ah, I've never had Fenris set up the duel: he's either offered it himself or I just killed the whole room. What does he say about it?

This is from pages back, but I wanted to note some things here.

On my green female warrior PT, Fenris was in the party, suggested we duel, Arishok said nope, she's a girl, and Fenris said I was a basa something or other, which meant gender didn't matter. The Arishok agreed, we fought.

On my purple male rogue PT, I don't exactly recall. I think Fenris still had to bring it up, even though that character unlocked the Arishok's respect achievement.

Last night on my mostly purple(mixed with red) female mage PT, Fenris was in the party, didn't say a WORD, and the Arishok told me I was basa whatever and offered to duel me. No mention of gender. The only difference I know for sure is, this is the first character that told him that she would not surrender the elves either.

So... IDK. He WILL challenge a female to dueling without mentioning their gender. I'm just not sure what the certain set of circumstances is.

[nyxocity]

Why does it create new posts when I edit? *sigh* Sorry for the double, guys.

[Dunizel]

Trophonius wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

Fixed.

Justice was nver a demon.  Vengeance on the other hand is a demon.  A spirit warped by his desires, or more specifically Anders' desires and hatred.

Justice isn't blameless. If Anders corrupted him into becoming Vengeance, then he's just as a guilty for allowing it to happen. This is the guy who encouraged Anders to give a damn about the plight of mages after all.

I think we all agree that by the end of Awakenign Justice was already changed and had strange ideas on his mind. In my opinion, I'm pretty sure that Justice pretty much persuaded Anders...and it didn't take much effort, because Anders was easygoing on the matter and he trusted him a friend that he wanted to help and could help him with the mages freedom project. Maybe Anders didn't imagine what was going to happen, but I think Justice could imagine that. On a side note, maybe he even thought that possessing a mage would have greatly improved his power too (that had to be better than a corpse anyways). Anders is blaming himself too much for what happened, Justice/Vengeance had already changed and I think he strongly wanted to posses Anders (that sounded a lot worst that I inteded, but in this thread...who cares xD)

[ipgd]

ugh why does this thread move so fast aagghhhghgg

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's not what I meant.  I meant:

"We can't judge the justness of this conflict before it is resolved"  as an argument doesn't really work, and as an example of this, you can go back to 2002-2003 when the war was highly controversial before it even began, in part because the U.S. administration's jus ad bellum was so weak.

I'm not sure the Iraq war is really comparable. Anders is more of a "straw that broke the camel's back" case than a political leader exercising power in a way that is legally/ethically dubious and/or arguable. Not to mention, also greatly colored by consequentialism, considering our perceptions of Bush's choices could have been much different had it not turned out to be a dead-end war that did little for America personally other than incur debt. I'm sure we would be celebrating him decades down the line if we'd swooped in, knocked down all the dictators in the land !!! and brought GREAT PROSPERITY AND OIL to the middle east and amerika, despite the tumultuous political atmosphere at the time of the decision. Hell, we still might, if the glorious human race continues its dandy tradition of whitewashing history.

Of course, we can and often do make judgments about whether or not something is right before seeing the consequences, but "I think what Anders did is wrong because I believe it will result in X outcome" is a different kind of argument. It's a bit different when you're considering a video game, because narrative perogative often takes precedent over logic.

[GailRana]

Threeparts wrote...

I find it interesting, because the Circles teach mages to become spirit healers, even though it makes the templars nervous. Anders and Merrill have obviously been raised to look at the Fade beings differently, and his education has apparently taught Anders that some spirits can be trusted and can be used for good when a mage works alongside them. The Circles teach that there is a clear line between demons and spirits, whereas Merrill was taught by the Keeper that, regardless of the qualities that they embody, spirits can't be trusted.
It's a pity Anders didn't receive Dalish training, but it is understandable that he would believe there is a difference between the two, even if he's sometimes blind to what Justice has become.

that is really interesting insight, and explains their actions somewhat

[Rinji the Bearded]

Threeparts wrote...

I find it interesting, because the Circles teach mages to become spirit healers, even though it makes the templars nervous. Anders and Merrill have obviously been raised to look at the Fade beings differently, and his education has apparently taught Anders that some spirits can be trusted and can be used for good when a mage works alongside them. The Circles teach that there is a clear line between demons and spirits, whereas Merrill was taught by the Keeper that, regardless of the qualities that they embody, spirits can't be trusted.
It's a pity Anders didn't receive Dalish training, but it is understandable that he would believe there is a difference between the two, even if he's sometimes blind to what Justice has become.

It's kind of a pity, too.  I don't know whether it was Anders's lack of information, or the lack of information that was being provided to him.  It's kind of the issue with text books -- we teach kids what we WANT them to believe, not necessarily what is correct.  If the proper materials are not available to the mages because of a lack of understanding or even a desire to subjugate them , how can they ever learn to control and master their own power?